Thieves unite

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Gatvin.6510" said:

> So, while I've been complaining as much as the rest of you, I'm not sure VERY specific suggestions are super useful here. Its probably MOST useful if we describe the problems we are experiencing, what we'd LIKE to see the thief do from a general perspective, then let the devs take it from there. I'm ALSO very tempted to give specific suggestions on different skills, cooldowns and damage coefficients, but we're a decent sized group and the more "very specific" suggestions we give, the more likely we are to provide contradicting solutions that aren't useful. Also, Its easy to forget that the Devs ALSO like this game and I doubt that they've ever made anything with malice specifically toward the Thief class, they're just trying to create a good experience for everyone.

 

you are correct, thats why you mainly can give change suggestions to underused skills/traits, not as much to ones being used somewhere.

 

in pvp modes id say the nature of our defense is the reason some builds struggle in damage. thief can avoid damage by mobility, evades , range and to some extend stealth. thief has very low options to mitigate damage and heal it up again wich means he has to play around enemy offense and attack in the right moment to not get shred themselves. with the years and powercreep the opportunities to attack for a thief have gotten fewer as people can now pretty much spamm damage nonstop in between their immunities/invulns/evades etc. this would also not as much be an issue if thieves all had practical long lasting CC. because of the ini system we are not allowed to have long lasting CC on a weapon skill. we do have 2 long knockdowns, one is a trap (not really usefull in a normal combat situation as applying it on demand is too complicated) and binding shadows wich requires us to run deadeye but that knockdown actually regularly kills people, just not usable by core/daredevil. now we can outrange our opponents or use deadeye knockdown to reliably deliver our damage, every other build really struggles to deal damage, thats why we are often just +1. [reflexsive strike / palm strike are 2s CC aswell, but are way too obvious or dangerous to try to apply as both need another skill before as a warning , not practical]

so we got 2 options to go about it, first would be give us more options to 'tank' damage and sustain through it, this combined with us bein slippery could quickly become a bunker issue tho. and second option would be better CC, for this i proposed above to change the ini system in a way that would alow stronger weapon skills and therefor also better CC. by giving us 2 ini bars for each set with lower ini gain, we would be forced to swap like any other profession but for the duration of each set every skill can be stronger and have more of an impact as you cannot spamm a single skill endlessly anymore. might aswell open option for more interesting PvE damage rotations.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > > Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)

> > > > Preassure striking - currently in Trickery should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)

> > > > Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)

> > > > Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

> > > >

> > > > it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)

> > > > thx for view

> > >

> > > Lolwat?

> > >

> > > This list makes absolutely no sense. You overload SA, nerf DA out of its power options, nerf CS to being literally a waste of space, remove Acro having synergy with nearly anything, make S/D relatively pointless and attempt to force it into one specific set of trait options, and hurt virtually every edge-case build out there except D/P SA.

> > >

> > > No thanks.

> > >

> > > Want to fix thief?

> > >

> > > - Dual wield skills should be 2-4 instead of just 3, and then rebalance the weapon combinations to provide each kit enough independent utility while preserving its identity.

> > > - Rework SA to provide defensive and utility bonuses to active gameplay and weaving in and out of stealth rather than just camping invisible. Keeps DA/CS offense, SA/Acro defense, and Tr utility which is a good balance of choices catering to many styles of play and weapon kits. Solves all the disparities and makes trait options much more open for different kits.

> > > - Rework Signets again because the traits in CS are terrible for anything but open-world. Short-timered on-kill effects is stupid because signets lacks utility and thief as a whole require constant re-engage. Yield 3% bonus damage per signet activation for 5s and keep the passive effects upon activation. Remove the CDR component of the trait and drop ISignet's cooldown to 20s since it's so much worse than Shadowstep and favors a commitment-heavy playstyle as signets do.

> > > - Make Unrelenting Strikes just have its ICD instead of a health threshold component. Makes the trait better for use as a whole by making it apply at the start of the fight and continue throughout, but doesn't affect uptime and keeps NQ valuable.

> > > - Rework traps to be ranged throwables using the siege throw animation. Put them (aside from shadow trap) on the ammo system to cater better to the trapper concept. Drop Shadow Trap's cooldown to 30s.

> > > - Drop SR's cooldown to 30s, reduce its pulses to 2, and have it remove the revealed debuff but continue self-inflicted reveal upon exiting. Develops new synergy with active-play adjustments to SR, allows enemy-inflicted Reveal to have counterplay for stealth-oriented builds, and still rewards smart CC/bomb play by an enemy.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The reason why dual wielding only effects the third weapon is because each weapon only has three skills in each hand.

> >

> > This would imply an additional skill needs to be made for off hand and main hand.

> >

> > Keeping it to be just 3 is fine. But improving thieves toolkit overall and bringing him back to the intended design should be the main goal. Which is an agile, slippery kitten that weasels around defences and murders you.

> >

> > My main concern is core thief. Not the Elites as those are all influenced by core.

> >

> > Support wise. Thief is a little unusual compared to everyone else. He doesn't support in a way that makes him effective in PvE, as he does not provide buffs... But short lived bursts of damage and healing (skelk venom). In PvP, this is powerful... But because you're not as effective at your best compared to a mediocre player... You're playing a game of cat and mouse. And you are the mouse.

> >

> > The one utility which heals players is nearly worthless. Shadow Refuge. The skill stupidly marks the location even when there's no penalty for someone to stand in it. It just means they need to spam that area with AOEs. So you can't hide your team for an ambush with it. You can't use it to hide when you are fleeing. Even if you give regen from SA it gets dwarfed by other classes support functions. Can't leave the circle or you lose stealth. Attack and you lose stealth. Only effects 5 players. The healing it provides is the third best in all utils. But the surrounding problems make it a kitten option.

> >

> >

>

> MH/OH doesn't need additional skills to do what I proposed; the way it already works is just a skill replacement when dual wielding occurs as it is. It's not possible to play with only one weapon, anyways, so it's not like it's a relevant factor. It just allows better granularity for balancing every individual kit while keeping some of the fundamentals the same.

>

> The skills as they are are not fine. The biggest thing holding back buffs and tweaks to the weak kits is the existing cohesion of the better ones.

>

> SR can't not have counterplay. But it's too easy to do so at the moment due to its duration. With the cut duration and lowered cooldown, it could act somewhat like an extended BP, just not instant, while also preserving offensive capabilities by allowing a thief to attack and enter stealth more than once from within the radius, forcing most players to move away or face large amounts of damage.

>

>

 

It can have counter play. But the counter play is far stronger than the actual skill. When it allowed people to leave the area and hold stealth it was actually useful in PvP if your team knew what it actually was.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> I've been a touch quiet recently and that is because I've been taking Deadeye for more of a whirl in raids to see what can be done with things as they currently are. I'll probably make a more detailed thread discussing how it is possible to get Deadeye performing reasonably relative to other professions (in terms of DPS) but my work is very busy at the moment so that will likely need to wait. As a heads up, this post is from an instanced PvE perspective - primarily raids. Any changes I suggest should of course be considered as skill splits first and I'm going to request that the PvE focus of my post continues in any responses to what is suggested.

>

> In short, Deadeye can pull some respectable DPS that puts it in the upper echelons of rankings _if it is played correctly_ though this continues to sacrifice much utility and does not afford Deadeye a niche. A small change to the scaling of Malicious Backstab, from 10% per Malice to 15%, would allow for Deadeye to shine as a low cleave, low utility, high single target (boss) damage spec.

>

> Golem benchmarks for Deadeye are poor but in actual raids, immunity phases allow the stacking of Malice and the alignment of Assassin's Signet with 5 Malice Malicious Backstabs, Shadow Flare, remarking and then a final 3 Malice Malicious Backstab affords good DPS with a non-linear and relatively high-pressure rotation.

>

> This results in situations such as;

> * [24.5k Vale Guardian DPS ](https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/ElbowsDebatedSubscriptionsIncurNecks "24.5k Vale Guardian DPS ")

> * [21.4k Samarog DPS](https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/AssuranceStepWardrobeMailsAttempt " 21.4k Samarog DPS")

> * [31k Keep Construct DPS](https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/ApplesDeedsMerciesCarsCharacter "31k Keep Construct DPS")

> * [22.2k Slothasor DPS](https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/RocksNervePublicationPoliticiansAbsorbed "22.2k Slothasor DPS")

> * [29k Sabetha DPS](https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TrendFreestClosingWhisperedAlly "29k Sabetha DPS")

>

> I've been able to reach similar heights (relative to other professions) on other bosses where Power is preferred but I think the above is enough to illustrate my point (and someone uploaded months of Dhuum / Dhuum CM wipes that I took part in so sifting through my logs is a pain). None of these logs were chased, no group compositions altered to benefit me and I did not run a full DPS build - Basilisk Venom was used in all circumstances. This damage could also be easily improved upon by a player better than myself that isn't fighting disabled hands which caused a few poorly timed Assassin's Signets into "front" stabs and similar issues.

>

> The numbers obtained are fine (excluding our lack of utility), but they are certainly not by design due to needing to use immune / distant from boss / cleave scenarios to build additional Malice with Dancing Dagger and we still ignore all synergistic traits in Deadeye. Only passive buffs are taken.

>

> However, the biggest underlying issue with Deadeye can be seen in the [Xera rankings](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16246 "Xera rankings") and in this [Xera log](https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/DumpedSlammingStakeStraightforwardIndices "Xera log") (where I was ported once sub-50% - due to low number of logs this skews the possible single target on Xera downwards slightly since I've yet to have a run without being ported).

>

> Despite hitting decent numbers for single target, the cleave that Deadeye offers on an encounter like this is non-existent. Despite this, there are professions that can deal more single target and more cleave damage.

>

> 

>

> Deadeye ranks third for single target damage but has massively lower cleave.

>

> This creates a very easy "fix" for Deadeye to give it a decent identity in PvE with respect to DPS. So @"Robert Gee.9246" if you are still looking for feedback; Deadeye should be top single target power DPS - it should not be Weaver or Spellbreaker or other professions that can cleave and AoE and support far better. While Rifle requires a vast amount more work to be viable in instanced PvE again, Dagger/Dagger needs only one change and this could be split to be PvE only -

>

> * **_Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice_**

>

> This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

>

> The lack of Deadeye support in PvE could also be improved by a second change, _in addition to the improvement to Malicious Backstab_

>

> * **_Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds_**

>

> These are very minor changes, are only numerical alterations and could be split from PvP and WvW yet would allow for Deadeye to find a niche as high single target damage with low cleave and low utility while offering an off-meta Might share choice.

 

You should specify that for PvE only and explicitly mention not buffing it for PvP/WvW.

 

Because that's very far from a "minor change" in the PvP formats; at 7 malice that's a 105% damage increase on backstab which is a bigger difference between running full zerk + Assassin's Signet + CS/DA/Tr and running Acro/SA/x and Marauder.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > > > Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)

> > > > > Preassure striking - currently in Trickery should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)

> > > > > Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)

> > > > > Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

> > > > >

> > > > > it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)

> > > > > thx for view

> > > >

> > > > Lolwat?

> > > >

> > > > This list makes absolutely no sense. You overload SA, nerf DA out of its power options, nerf CS to being literally a waste of space, remove Acro having synergy with nearly anything, make S/D relatively pointless and attempt to force it into one specific set of trait options, and hurt virtually every edge-case build out there except D/P SA.

> > > >

> > > > No thanks.

> > > >

> > > > Want to fix thief?

> > > >

> > > > - Dual wield skills should be 2-4 instead of just 3, and then rebalance the weapon combinations to provide each kit enough independent utility while preserving its identity.

> > > > - Rework SA to provide defensive and utility bonuses to active gameplay and weaving in and out of stealth rather than just camping invisible. Keeps DA/CS offense, SA/Acro defense, and Tr utility which is a good balance of choices catering to many styles of play and weapon kits. Solves all the disparities and makes trait options much more open for different kits.

> > > > - Rework Signets again because the traits in CS are terrible for anything but open-world. Short-timered on-kill effects is stupid because signets lacks utility and thief as a whole require constant re-engage. Yield 3% bonus damage per signet activation for 5s and keep the passive effects upon activation. Remove the CDR component of the trait and drop ISignet's cooldown to 20s since it's so much worse than Shadowstep and favors a commitment-heavy playstyle as signets do.

> > > > - Make Unrelenting Strikes just have its ICD instead of a health threshold component. Makes the trait better for use as a whole by making it apply at the start of the fight and continue throughout, but doesn't affect uptime and keeps NQ valuable.

> > > > - Rework traps to be ranged throwables using the siege throw animation. Put them (aside from shadow trap) on the ammo system to cater better to the trapper concept. Drop Shadow Trap's cooldown to 30s.

> > > > - Drop SR's cooldown to 30s, reduce its pulses to 2, and have it remove the revealed debuff but continue self-inflicted reveal upon exiting. Develops new synergy with active-play adjustments to SR, allows enemy-inflicted Reveal to have counterplay for stealth-oriented builds, and still rewards smart CC/bomb play by an enemy.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The reason why dual wielding only effects the third weapon is because each weapon only has three skills in each hand.

> > >

> > > This would imply an additional skill needs to be made for off hand and main hand.

> > >

> > > Keeping it to be just 3 is fine. But improving thieves toolkit overall and bringing him back to the intended design should be the main goal. Which is an agile, slippery kitten that weasels around defences and murders you.

> > >

> > > My main concern is core thief. Not the Elites as those are all influenced by core.

> > >

> > > Support wise. Thief is a little unusual compared to everyone else. He doesn't support in a way that makes him effective in PvE, as he does not provide buffs... But short lived bursts of damage and healing (skelk venom). In PvP, this is powerful... But because you're not as effective at your best compared to a mediocre player... You're playing a game of cat and mouse. And you are the mouse.

> > >

> > > The one utility which heals players is nearly worthless. Shadow Refuge. The skill stupidly marks the location even when there's no penalty for someone to stand in it. It just means they need to spam that area with AOEs. So you can't hide your team for an ambush with it. You can't use it to hide when you are fleeing. Even if you give regen from SA it gets dwarfed by other classes support functions. Can't leave the circle or you lose stealth. Attack and you lose stealth. Only effects 5 players. The healing it provides is the third best in all utils. But the surrounding problems make it a kitten option.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > MH/OH doesn't need additional skills to do what I proposed; the way it already works is just a skill replacement when dual wielding occurs as it is. It's not possible to play with only one weapon, anyways, so it's not like it's a relevant factor. It just allows better granularity for balancing every individual kit while keeping some of the fundamentals the same.

> >

> > The skills as they are are not fine. The biggest thing holding back buffs and tweaks to the weak kits is the existing cohesion of the better ones.

> >

> > SR can't not have counterplay. But it's too easy to do so at the moment due to its duration. With the cut duration and lowered cooldown, it could act somewhat like an extended BP, just not instant, while also preserving offensive capabilities by allowing a thief to attack and enter stealth more than once from within the radius, forcing most players to move away or face large amounts of damage.

> >

> >

>

> It can have counter play. But the counter play is far stronger than the actual skill. When it allowed people to leave the area and hold stealth it was actually useful in PvP if your team knew what it actually was.

 

In what I proposed, it's not really the case, though.

 

The major issue with SR is that it lasts too long and thus keeps the thief contained for too long a time. Its cooldown is also quite long, and it can't be used as a reliable offensive tool making its use-case even lower. By dropping the time factor, it ends up being less risky to utilize.

 

With no reveal, there's really just no counterplay to the longer-duration stealth as it ends up just being a better version of most stealth abilities. A thief can simply walk away for a few seconds while the enemy burns cooldowns and come back for the last pulse.

 

With what I proposed, it still creates an opportunity for the enemy to bomb/knock the thief out, but cuts the window to do so by 60%. The reveal-cleanse lets the thief make very offense-minded plays using the skill for zone denial; backstab -> SR proc1 (cleanse) -> HS -> SR proc2 (cleanse) -> Backstab, and the reduced cooldown makes it more usable across more fights and generally more valuable in sPvP, with the zone denial working to make thief better on-point with its better access to repeated animation hiding and high-damage skills.

 

 

[TwiceDead.1963]

Honestly stealth shouldn't be able to be stacked for more than 4 seconds (traited), tops. I never enjoyed the camping stealth-gameplay of thief, much prefer running S/D.

Naturally, some wheels would have to be reinvented to prevent the thief from getting nuked FURTHER out of existence if this were to happen but... Man can hope.

[Jack Redline.5379]

A plenty of ppl here say that changes i have implied would be really bad. I would ask you to go to GW2wiki and open 5 windows each having one of the core traitlines on it. Then swap the forementioned traits as i said. If you would check the amount of builds that can be created with this new system and the effects of those builds just as i have you would see my point. (Maybe) About the thread as it is i am happy you guys have ideas for the changes for thief go ahead i encourage you to present them.

[Gatvin.6510]

The primary issues I have with Thief are:

1. its inability to handle multiple targets outside of evasion-condition damage builds

2. A solid chunk of its utility skills being fairly useless/ having poor area coverage(especially traps).

 

With Rifle Deadeye in particular:

1. The spec lacks ways to interact with the target. The standard loadout for most long range weapons includes skills that offer a combination of knockbacks, and interrupts often on multiple targets, AND some form of persisted aoe damage. Rifle is pretty lacking in that regard.

2. It is difficult to switch between offense and defense while using the rifle without disengaging entirely and setting up a new ambush.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Gatvin.6510" said:

> 2. It is difficult to switch between offense and defense while using the rifle without disengaging entirely and setting up a new ambush.

 

currently if your kneeling and use withdrawl or roll for initative your during the roll standing and then kneeling again. so you can withdrawl -> death retreat and kneel at the end of it without the need to press 5 again. if this was also possible during normal dodge roll, this would help opening a little distance for defense quickly.

another option would be if free action would be a true instant ability, therefor usable during other actions like dodge then we could dodge a melee attack right into deaths retreat to open a gap from kneeling.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> A plenty of ppl here say that changes i have implied would be really bad. I would ask you to go to GW2wiki and open 5 windows each having one of the core traitlines on it. Then swap the forementioned traits as i said. If you would check the amount of builds that can be created with this new system and the effects of those builds just as i have you would see my point. (Maybe) About the thread as it is i am happy you guys have ideas for the changes for thief go ahead i encourage you to present them.

 

I already have all of the thief's traits, their locations, effects, cooldowns, and numbers memorized.

I still opened up the build editor to double-check my reactions.

 

A lot of what you proposed ends up being a net reduction in viable builds and removing existing synergy while blatantly favoring a few select other builds to the benefit of ones which can still be functional by opting for different trait lines, or simply making said trait lines stronger than necessary or simply changing their designed purpose and identity. If you make a build that has no synergy have slightly more synergy by just stealing it from another build, you're not creating diversity. It'd like the people who are asking for D/D to have Shadow Shot instead of D/P. You're making one less-effective build slightly better at the cost of another without intentions to buff both in the end.

 

The proposals you have just aren't very good and don't improve the state of the thief as a whole, and don't provide basis for future buffs.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> A plenty of ppl here say that changes i have implied would be really bad. I would ask you to go to GW2wiki and open 5 windows each having one of the core traitlines on it. Then swap the forementioned traits as i said. If you would check the amount of builds that can be created with this new system and the effects of those builds just as i have you would see my point. (Maybe) About the thread as it is i am happy you guys have ideas for the changes for thief go ahead i encourage you to present them.

 

Unfortunately dude, we're allowed to flat out disagree with you. Thief honestly isn't in a bad spot, it's just that everything else released in PoF bar renegade is bonkers OP right now while deadeye always had intentional drawbacks to balance it's strengths, and Anet have nerfed daredevil as they no longer want it to be the strongest option so they brought it in line with core. The same thing will happen with the PoF specs eventually, it's more a matter of how long it will take.

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Miatela.5047" said:

> >**As a heads up, this post is from an instanced PvE perspective** - primarily raids. Any changes I suggest should of course be considered as **skill splits first** and I'm going to request that the PvE focus of my post continues in any responses to what is suggested.

 

> > This creates a very easy "fix" for Deadeye to give it a decent identity in PvE with respect to DPS. So @"Robert Gee.9246" if you are still looking for feedback; Deadeye should be top single target power DPS - it should not be Weaver or Spellbreaker or other professions that can cleave and AoE and support far better. While Rifle requires a vast amount more work to be viable in instanced PvE again, Dagger/Dagger needs only one change and **this could be split to be PvE only** -

> >

> > These are very minor changes, **are only numerical alterations and could be split from PvP and WvW** yet would allow for Deadeye to find a niche as high single target damage with low cleave and low utility while offering an off-meta Might share choice.

 

> You should specify that for PvE only and explicitly mention not buffing it for PvP/WvW.

>

> Because that's very far from a "minor change" in the PvP formats; at 7 malice that's a 105% damage increase on backstab which is a bigger difference between running full zerk + Assassin's Signet + CS/DA/Tr and running Acro/SA/x and Marauder.

 

I've only been posting in this forum since the proposed Deadeye rework. I've come to realise is that this place is incredibly PvP centric and will use any sort of PvP arguments to deny PvE discussion. I've also realised that people won't read posts properly and jump to conclusions.

 

So on that note, I've responsed to this quoting my original post but leaving in the parts where I asked for responses to remain PvE focused since I'm only talking about PvE and the _three_ times I made clear that my suggestions should come with a skill split between PvE and sPvP/WvW.

 

Please, if you are going to argue or discuss my post, read it and respond regarding PvE. I am not adding to the PvP discussion and I honestly thought I made that clear. I currently do not PvP, have not since Season 5 and will not talk about an area where my understanding is less which is why I made it clear that everything I proposed was to be considered as a skill split.

 

Thanks!

[DeceiverX.8361]

It is PvP-centric because PvP needs innately tighter balance than PvE for a game to be playable. Not to discount PvE balance entirely, but the game mode is still playable with slight dps imbalances. The content can be completed with off-meta builds. It's just the community being jerks.

 

I noticed you used PvE as the basis for what you said. That doesn't mean you acknowledge the need for the split for sPvP and WvW. Notice how I'm not disagreeing with the buff there. I just want to make it clear said change would need to be a split exclusive to PvE. We've had a lot of PvE-based changes get applied to this class across the formats and it's caused a number of problems. It's extremely frustrating when that happens.

 

 

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I noticed you used PvE as the basis for what you said. That doesn't mean you acknowledge the need for the split for sPvP and WvW. Notice how I'm not disagreeing with the buff there. I just want to make it clear said change would need to be a split exclusive to PvE. We've had a lot of PvE-based changes get applied to this class across the formats and it's caused a number of problems. It's extremely frustrating when that happens.

>

Sure, the fact that I said that a skill split could / should be considered **three times** in my original post means I don't acknowledge the need for a split. /s

 

I even put those sections in bold in my quoted reply so that you could see that and this is the response I get? Do you need me to quote them directly for you? I believe I do. Screenshots next?

 

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> As a heads up, this post is from an instanced PvE perspective - primarily raids. Any changes I suggest should of course be considered as skill splits first and I'm going to request that the PvE focus of my post continues in any responses to what is suggested.

> While Rifle requires a vast amount more work to be viable in instanced PvE again, Dagger/Dagger needs only one change and this could be split to be PvE only

> These are very minor changes, are only numerical alterations and could be split from PvP and WvW

 

Seriously, _that_ is extremely frustrating. Every time a PvE voice speaks up - with numerical data, logical reasoning _and_ proposals that fit within the PvP-first mindset of this forum where we (apparently) can't have PvE focused mechanical changes and only skill split numerical tweaks - someone tries to shoot down the point with PvP arguments _that aren't even a consideration_ and, also in this case, by deliberately ignoring the content of the post.

 

My PvE points (**YES THAT INCLUDES SKILL SPLITS**) for improving Deadeye in instanced content still stand and I hope the next response I get actually addresses those and tries to discuss that. It would be a welcome change.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I didn't look through the retroactive quote posts as these all get hidden, and didn't see the split comment in the first post you made. By the reference to bolded statements, I thought you were referring to the bolded statements in the original post, which were not indicative of a desire to split. My bad for misunderstanding.

[Lucinellia.9247]

Thanks, I appreciate the apology.

 

This forum, in general, really needs to stop shouting down PvE voices that are coming in with evidence and data backing up their claims and making proposals centred around skill splits. We (normally) don't try to derail your multitude of PvP conversations - you could offer us the same kindness.

 

With that out of the way, do any other PvE players have thoughts on the following proposed minor, and split from PvP and WvW, changes?

 

* _Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice_

 

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

 

The lack of Deadeye support in PvE could also be improved by a second change, in addition to the improvement to Malicious Backstab

 

* _Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds_

 

This changes could allow for Deadeye to find a niche as high single target damage with low cleave and low utility while offering an off-meta Might share choice. Again, these would be considered for skill split between PvE and sPvP/WvW.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

>

> * _Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds_

 

I actually agree with this quite a lot. You all know druids might share was nerfed. Maybe this could substitute for that.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> Thanks, I appreciate the apology.

>

> This forum, in general, really needs to stop shouting down PvE voices that are coming in with evidence and data backing up their claims and making proposals centred around skill splits. We (normally) don't try to derail your multitude of PvP conversations - you could offer us the same kindness.

>

> With that out of the way, do any other PvE players have thoughts on the following proposed minor, and split from PvP and WvW, changes?

>

> * _Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice_

>

> This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

>

> The lack of Deadeye support in PvE could also be improved by a second change, in addition to the improvement to Malicious Backstab

>

> * _Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds_

>

> This changes could allow for Deadeye to find a niche as high single target damage with low cleave and low utility while offering an off-meta Might share choice. Again, these would be considered for skill split between PvE and sPvP/WvW.

 

All good. I'll be first to admit when I'm wrong or misunderstanding something when I see it. I don't love dramatic numbers shifts that much for splits because I think they warp perceptions of what's playable in WvW/PvP for new players due to the nuances which get made, as well as creating a lot of really uninformed bias about what can be played in PvP/WvW (which affects game-health long-term since new people being confused is not a good thing for supporting a population), but this is probably harmless enough where I'll take it as it is. It's not like D/D glass DE is playable in the PvP modes as it is, so adjustments will be forced, anyways. Really, that's a big reason why I oppose a lot of PvE-based hotfixing; the confusion it creates only ends up hurting the PvP modes for the most part, as few players join for PvP first since they want to learn the professions in open-world and level up (or they simply have to for WvW).

 

Just a lot of contention as a whole with the audiences tbh. The PvP systems in the game were pretty much obliterated in the name of PvE (like even a lot of WvW changes which have been perceived largely as negatives had limited early access testing, but were given exclusively to PvE-only players with no discussion prior with the WvW community). ANet's belligerence to do necessary reworks for the sake of PvE/raid concept balance is also super frustrating as well, since according to ANet's own stats, the raids community is a tiny minority of the people playing the game, even in respects to the dwindling WvW and PvP populations. Scourge, FB, and boons breaking WvW for this long while other threads are demanding buffs because DPS is too low is just insult to injury, and a lot of people get fed up trying to explain the difference between bad design and un-fun things to play against versus numbers imbalances. The former is often lost on the community which does not play the PvP modes at all, since they're never playing against these mechanics.

[eldrjth.7384]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

 

> * _Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice_

 

Why not increase all dmg from malicious attacks from every weapon set to 15% instead of just backstab?

 

In the consolidated DE suggestion thread I suggested that malicious strikes gain 15% extra dmg per stack of malice _when the player traits M7_ but when traited BQoBK you gain quickness after performing a malicious strike instead and gain no bonus damage to malicious strikes. This makes it so M7 primarily boost malicious strike damage (while providing boons like fury) while BQoBK works of initiative spending attacks and autos. My suggestion was also to make the initiative refund mechanic of M7 baseline to DE but M7 returns more initiative when it is traited, and you no longer needed to stealth to activate a malicious strike, instead just need to dodge roll at max malice.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"Miatela.5047" said:

> >

> > * _Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds_

>

> I actually agree with this quite a lot. You all know druids might share was nerfed. Maybe this could substitute for that.

>

 

Druid is still the premier Might stacker which restricts raid compositions to normally include at least one Druid. This is despite there now being six different viable healers for raids. Having a DPS option for bringing Might opens up a large number of possible healing combinations for those that are willing to run more off-meta setups.

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > @"Miatela.5047" said:

>

> > * _Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice_

>

> Why not increase all dmg from malicious attacks from every weapon set to 15% instead of just backstab?

 

Yip, that would be fine too really. I wouldn't link it to M7 personally since with better Malice scaling there will be occasions where it is preferable to run M7 over BQoBK and needing to choose which is better for an encounter based on player knowledge (and your group DPS) is better in my opinion. The only reason I focused on Malicious Backstab is because I was talking about changes from an instanced PvE (raids and fractals) perspective but improving all Malicious Attacks (and upping Death's Judgment too) in PvE wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

Thanks for the PvE focused responses by the way!

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> > @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > > @"Miatela.5047" said:

 

Also All the T3 traits in DE should automatically refresh your ini by 6 after raeching max malice. This way only M7 does that which makes the other two less attractive to play (at least for me) because we need ini as thieves and we need some way to refresh it even as deadeye

 

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"Miatela.5047" said:

> > > @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > > > @"Miatela.5047" said:

>

> Also All the T3 traits in DE should automatically refresh your ini by 6 after raeching max malice. This way only M7 does that which makes the other two less attractive to play (at least for me) because we need ini as thieves and we need some way to refresh it even as deadeye

>

 

I would like to see this as well, and maybe a much lesser set of boons at max malice (compared to M7) as well. My main problem with the DE rework at this point is that not taking M7 or having easy stealth access locks us out of using the malice mechanic. There should be some reward for building malice no matter what weapon set the player is using. A toned down version of what DE 1.0 had with the damage buff per malice (say 1% per malice on top of the 10% from IS), some INI gain, and a few boons gained at max malice would be great.

[DeceiverX.8361]

M7's initiative regeneration baseline would break DE in relation to core. Tweaking initiative costs makes more sense and even then it's really just not necessary.

[elitegamerz.4965]

The focus lately has been almost entirely on Deadeye, but honestly core thief is in need of a total rework. The traits with synergy are scattered around so much that its almost impossible to make builds around certain skills viable (i.e. venom's). To make a build focusing on venom's you would need to take deadly arts and shadow arts to get the most out of them, but you would have to sacrifice either trickery, which is almost mandatory atm, or sacrifice taking an elite spec.

 

Thief severely lacks build diversity currently and the big contributing factor to this is the way trait lines are set up.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"elitegamerz.4965" said:

> The focus lately has been almost entirely on Deadeye, but honestly core thief is in need of a total rework. The traits with synergy are scattered around so much that its almost impossible to make builds around certain skills viable (i.e. venom's). To make a build focusing on venom's you would need to take deadly arts and shadow arts to get the most out of them, but you would have to sacrifice either trickery, which is almost mandatory atm, or sacrifice taking an elite spec.

>

> Thief severely lacks build diversity currently and the big contributing factor to this is the way trait lines are set up.

 

i was pointing this out before and was giving a solution nobody seemed to like it.