Jugglemonkey.8741

Half of the people complaining about thieves and rangers tend to make the same mistake that roaming classes do in zergs. I would expect to get flamed for bringing a thief into a prime time squad, so I don't get why people are surprised when they bring their zerg build to roaming/cloud/havok situations and promptly get their ass handed to them by a thief or ranger. If you go zerging, bring a zerg build, right? So if you go roaming, bring a roaming build. Simples.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said: > Everyone already knows what the correct answer is. The question is completely irrelevant. Sooooooo, if I asked you which profession needs buffs? :P I think ele needs buff in a way that make it not need to run practically full defensive stats in order to actually accomplish anything. I mean, the class's main utility is that it's a pain to kill and it just wears you down, It'd be fun to see more damage oriented specs be useful again.

You can still get good damage on builds, the difference is that if you want to see high numbers you now can't do it on a defensively traited bruiser build. Which is actually good for the game overall imo. If anything, condi and sustain still need a bit of a nerf, but in usual ANet fashion they haven't gotten around to that bit yet.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > I prefer it if Boon share part of the skill was removed and restored to 3 Boon rip in pvp. I could totally live with this tbh

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > guardian has some important skills that aren't FB exclusive. we would simply have to find a working build, but it makes no real sense to think about it. > > the complaints about sustain are just from smallscale players and ppt'ers... everyone who knows how to press their damage gets a firebrand down like anything else. > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" the first problem there is that thieves are usually having no experience with coordinated movement. half of them would attack too early, and 10 more would die in the first enemy bomb fields.... we had a 15ish enemy theif group trying sth alike (not only DE i think), but they wiped completely for 2-3 kills constantly. they killed some pugs during blobfights... impressive. or nah, those woulda died anyways. > > @"ugrakarma.9416" old misleading thing, u can get exotic minstrels extremly easy in Wvw. currently hoarding 17+2 triumphant warlords armor boxes and even some ascended armor boxes that would be possible to convert stats. weapons are provided by the obsidian boxes. > > rune of the monk takes way longer (reward track) than the minstrel gear for new players, but on pluspoints, after u got those, you can equip two supports likely ;P > > @"Dawdler.8521" just that the swordsoJ are meleerange. if not herald disappears as well, that's not gonna end too well for the dh's. and kinda, that's what dragonhunters are used for yet. and it worked way better when all traps had full dps. two zerker dhscould down a mounted player with traps ;P For sure, I'm not saying that 25 deadeyes is a good idea lol. It would just be fun to see if they could nail that co-ordination, is all ^^

Answering your other questions; race is unimportant for a one shot build unless you're using a racial skill as part of the rotation, as ideally by the time they realise they're being attacked they're already downed so the animations of your character are unimportant. If you feel that the different animations are important defensively, use standard models. Full zerk with those sigils is a good PvE build, but you're going to want some survivability in some way. My build uses templates and portal to minimise the risk before and after the spike, so it could run on full zerk for the glass build if needed. That said, I mostly want the marauder for the crit chance, and given stuff dies already I'm not sure I need more zerk pieces. Using only one build places more restrictions on your setup by requiring D/P offhand for stealth, and meaning you either need to build glassy for damage (which pretty much forces you to run deadeye or daredevil bound for the stealth) or tanky enough to take a hit. Full valkyrie with the hidden killer trait is worth a mention, it doesn't have as high damage as a marauder/zerk mix with no quarter but you can get plenty of health that way so it might fit your needs better.

I use a tank DE build for stealth and positioning, and a glass DE build to one shot. This is for WvW specifically. I'll post them both and explain the logic after. Tank support build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQhrlFwEZbMLmJeeT/vbA-zVRYiBBOG1ffnRmqqelqa8gEG/tUlCG-w Glass burst build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQpjlFwgYbMLmJW2O/vKA-zVRYBRNTMC2lSYRQmFVthQvJqtHkwYP8WqSBD-w Yes, I know these builds look a little nutty lol. Bear with me. The glass build lacks permastealth because the burst set is P/D, not D/P. P/D power actually does surprising damage when set up right, I've killed glass staff elementalists with just the sneak attack before. The tank build exists in order to provide that stealth for a safe engage and to provide tankiness when evading people, and for no other reason. Shadow portal is in the same utility slot in both builds, this is important as it means it is possible to place the portal then swap templates without destroying the portal. So in practice you would remain on the tank build for stealth and to place a portal at a safe distance from your target, move to just outside melee range of the target while stealthed, swap templates to glass build, then spike. The spike rotation is mark, binding shadow, P/D sneak attack just before binding shadow hits for the % modifier from impact sigil, shadow strike, repeater x2, shadow meld, weapon swap, death's judgement. The sneak attack hits for 7-10k, the shadow strike for 6-10k, so glassy targets like power thieves will be dead after the shadow strike and you'll be just out of melee range of the target, meaning you can shadow meld then shadow step stomp to avoid AoE from additional enemies. If it's tankier and you get the repeaters off it sets you up for the full malice death's judgement, which will finish anything short of a full minstrel firebrand. In this scenario you're probably at range from the downed target and any additional enemies will be about to bomb your location, so shadow meld then shadow stepping to the target while they AoE your previous location will usually get you enough time to stomp before they think to AoE CC the downed player. In both scenarios you should portal out as soon as the stomp finishes or if you get interrupted, and if you placed it correctly you'll pretty much instantly get out of combat, so you can swap to the tank build and stealth while waiting for cooldowns. It's a bit finnicky at first, but when it works you can stomp a target inside their own group as long as you watch your LoS, as it happens so fast it takes people by surprise. The rotation relies on you being out of combat when you mark the target, you don't have any traits that make mark do damage meaning you only get into combat when the P/D sneak attack hits and you have the rifle swap ready if needed. If you get in combat before you swap to P/D, you won't have access to the death's judgement if the target proves to be tanky, or if the target is glass you won't have the cleansing sigil proc on rifle after using shadow portal to ensure getting out of combat, potentially stopping you from swapping to the tank build and allowing the enemy a chance to chase you down. The build is obviously countered by projectile hate, so things like scrappers, elementalists with focus offhand and firebrands will be difficult to take down, and the build is completely countered by earth runes. Honestly I think the fact it is easy to shut down is a fair tradeoff for the high spike, but it really means you don't want a drawn out fight on the glass spec because you lack the stealth options to keep yourself going afterwards. You could use deadly arts over shadow arts for the glass build if you wanted, personally I find the engage more reliable with shadow arts. Have fun ^^ Edit: This might be a better glass build given you have full zerk: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQpjlFwgYbMLmJW2O/PTA-zVZYBRNnnVQBiRwCsUCLCysoqNE6NRt9gEG7h3SVmRA-w This would cap crit chance at 100% while you have fury and quickness, which is enough for the spike. The death's judgement would do less damage and you'd have no ini after using repeater (the two reasons I favour M7 over BQoBK), but it might suit you better. Edit edit: I've been playing the zerker build recently and it works well, I've been hitting 12k sneak attacks vs glassy targets. The swap from malicious intent to collateral damage gives a melee range blind when you finish the stomp which is very nice for avoiding damage as you portal, and often that will hit for 4k on it's own.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said: > It'd be funny if everyone switched to DH and relied on other sources for support. Can you imagine the meta *hell* of zergs with ~15-20 trappers dumping spinning swords everywhere? Oh look an enemy zerg lets pu**FWOOOMP** *25 people instantly died from traps the enemy zerg already has off cooldown*. I would love to see that happen at least once tho. Same for a group of 25 Deadeyes all using mark with mug, improv, sleight of hand and collateral damage all traited, all on a single target xD

This bug has been around for years (I remember it happening in HoT), but it does seem to happen more often than it did. It does seem to happen more often on daredevil than deadeye tho.

Tbh the problem lies in coverage, as others have said. You can make it take 6h to upgrade if you want, but if one server's got overnight coverage against two that have no roamers flipping camps, you're still gonna wake up to a T3 SM. And why shouldn't you see a T3 SM if there's nobody there to stop it? Their play time is as valid as ours, there's a reason real life armies have night sentries etc, if you have nobody watching you can't complain if people take advantage of that. Short of removing the wall/gate upgrade system altogether and standardising the toughness of objectives, changing the time to upgrade will achieve nothing.

Eh. Tbh if someone decides to BM me, that usually means one of two things; 1) One of us died, and they're a poor loser/winner. When I go down I tend to alt tab and read forums until I can respawn, so BM as much as you like, I'm not even watching. 2) I was trolling you on my minstrel DE build by hiding in a keep, or popping out of stealth next to you and /laughing as you dodge randomly, or pretending to be a tree in different spots and seeing how long it takes you to notice me. If I was doing any of these things, I don't mind the BM as I 100% deserve it by the time you finally catch me lol. I never whisper other players after I kill them or they kill me, it's a waste of energy. Frankly, I didn't know how to until after I played the game for a few years already. I will happily help anyone who whispers me and asks what I did, what build I have, or what they could have done to avoid it, because I respect people that try to better themselves and their play. I will also happily troll anyone who sends me salty whispers trying to insult me for existing, you are literally asking for me to mess with you at that point and you should know that if you do this I will 100% be laughing my ass off at you for being such a tool.

It would be better in general to run scholar in both PvE and WvW than to run eagle in both imo. Eagle is a more reliable rune in WvW in that the % damage increase kicks in when your target is weak so it's ideal for +1's, and it doesn't shut down when you get hit like scholar does. On the other hand, taking eagle in PvE would lose power and overcap crit chance in most groups compared to taking scholar, and the % damage modifier would only be active for half the fight where scholar's % modifier would potentially be active far more than that. The main adjustment you'll need to take in WvW is to focus more on the hit and run aspect of the class to maximise the odds of being on full health when you engage, which with D/P daredevil should be easy enough.

> @"Touchme.1097" said: > Any thief who builds into Trickery and Deadeye at the moment are in such a bad state that the nerfs almost made them non viable in any PvP/WvW game mode. A thief who is not able to steal boons is not a thief and I agree that the "bountiful" adjective should reflect the amount of boons stolen back to 3 with full stacks and durations. Revert the nerfs to Deadeye and buff Trickery, they were unnecessary. Those who hate this elite spec are the same ones who get dismounted by my thief but the profession itself is squishy, it has less survivability than other thief specs and it is definitely not worth the expansion price. There are builds that are way more lethal than Deadeye and with less counters like stability and projectile reflect I actually think that deadeye isn't in such a bad place in WvW if you are willing to invest heavily into it. If anything the issues deadeye has is that it is less flexible than D/P daredevil in most situations (so an individual DE build has more hard counters, this can be worked around with build templates), and that other professions like ranger, engi and rev are arguably better roamers at this point as they can all counter thief pretty handily if built right. That said, these are all matchups that building into boonrip helped to even out, so on that I agree with you.

> @"Infusion.7149" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"Infusion.7149" said: > > > > @"Cynz.9437" said: > > > > > @"Infusion.7149" said: > > > > > I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids. > > > > > > > > Please no, the boon strip has its uses in PVE as well (e.g. bounties). > > > > > > Quickness instead of vigor > > > > That will hurt **DD** specs a lot more than you might think, given the poor state of acrobatics atm > > Who runs acro nowadays outside boon thief (as opposed to daredevil)? That's exactly my point. Since acro was gutted by the 300s ICD changes (and has been left that way far longer than it ought to have been), you're stuck with bountiful theft being the only option for daredevil to get vigor. Sure, you can use fireworks runes to top up the duration, but you're gonna need one of those traits to make it useful, so removing vigor from bountiful theft is going to hurt daredevil specs more than you might think. > If mesmers can make do with 1 dodge, I'm sure 3 dodges is fine Mirage is a bad comparison given it gets vigor from shattering clones as a minor trait, with the duelling line giving vigor on critical hits made by the player themselves. These are traits that are in most mirage builds from what I've seen, so it could actually afford to have one of these traits removed without outright removing vigor access from mirage and without forcing a major build change in response. Daredevil would not have that luxury in comparison. Also, the maximum number of dodges is generally less important than the recovery rate of dodges, If this wasn't true you wouldn't be seeing daredevil and mirage players alike running stuff like agility signet, endurance food and energy sigils anywhere near as much as you do now. I'm actually fine with the idea of mirage getting its second dodge back, I'm less fine with the mirage dodge being useable when CC'd as that is inherently broken, but that's a separate thread altogether.

> @"Infusion.7149" said: > > @"Cynz.9437" said: > > > @"Infusion.7149" said: > > > I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids. > > > > Please no, the boon strip has its uses in PVE as well (e.g. bounties). > > Quickness instead of vigor That will hurt DD specs a lot more than you might think, given the poor state of acrobatics atm

> @"lare.5129" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > Just wondering, but what about the 39k damage output quoted here isn't viable? > this is very small value .. normal is 50+k > that about burst .. not about continuous average damage > > Gotcha. Last I checked viable builds did somewhere between 30k and 40k, hence why I asked. Evidently I'm out of date haha

> @"Trianox.3486" said: > One can reach 39k DPS on a very fast ramp up time with condi P/D deadeye, near 4-6 secondes. It's nothing to be shy off. Can't remember whether Vallun or Lord Hizen did a video a few weeks ago about that. > @"Scykosix.7836" said: > Im hoping for Torch in EOD or some other condi heavy off weapon to make him finally PvE condi viable. At the same time im hoping we are not getting another 2H weapon just because developers are too lazy to work around dual wield attacks. Just wondering, but what about the 39k damage output quoted here isn't viable? Is it because it's single target?

> @"saerni.2584" said: > Core/DD Stolen Skills are all potentially good depending on what they are combo'd with/situationally. As mentioned, throw gunk is a great skill with projectile finishers. The outliers are the ones like tuft or plasma that add significantly to sustain. Others depend heavily on XvX scenarios where you can use, for example, spinning axe against a ranger or DH ranged burst. > > As a reminder there are also Deadeye Stolen Skills, which can give you stealth, and which individually include some nice gems: > * (Rev) and (Necro) are additional damage condition application. > * (Ranger) applies Immobilize and gives you Superspeed. > * (Mesmer) gives you Quickness. > * (Guardian) gives you Aegis. > > In that sense you can think of Deadeye Stolen Skills as a hybrid between condi application and a mini plasma that only grants one boon but can also function as a tuft at or above 5 malice. That makes all of them more useful in most situations but somewhat less individually impactful as one of the Core skills. > Another one; The DE thief stolen skill applies blind and hits the thief as long as he's in range, regardless of stealth. Taking improv and using this after a DD enters stealth can really shift a DE vs DD matchup by denying the backstab, forcing him to burn initiative to clear the blind, or making him rely on shadow shot instead, which means you have a range advantage, better ini regen through mercy/M7 and an easy blind cleanse in rifle 4.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > A thief can only 'abuse' boonrip if the other player is 'abusing' boons. Bountiful theft isn't the problem here. > > Not true. There are cases in which the class matchup already has a lean toward thief that boonripping full stacks/dura would aggravate. > > If a non glass thief boonrips a glass warrior, that skews the match further in the thief's favor, because the thief has additional damage for merely interacting with a class they already have an advantage on. Warrior vomits might for merely existing. > > Same with classes that are playing support like Herald/Tempest. This issue is compounded if you let them distribute those copies to allies. A gated duration of the boon is fine, lest we get battered by complaints about thieves stabbing people for 13k because they F1ed a ranger who pressed strength of the pack. Both of these classes are classes that, as you put it, vomit boons for merely existing. I'm saying that that boon vomit is the real issue, not the boonrip, as if those classes had reasonable amounts of boons it wouldn't matter if they got ripped in full stacks or not. Besides, it's not like thief has trouble getting to 25 might without boonrip if it wants to, so those complaints are gonna come regardless of whether bountiful theft rips full stacks or not really. I actually don't have an issue with bountiful theft as it is honestly, removing boons with potential for more boonrip from sleight of hand and absorption sigil is strong enough like others have said. Personally, if I was going to change anything, I'd rather see our boonrips have their numbers restored to pre patch levels first, so BT rips 3, rending shade rips 2 etc. I'm simply saying that if thief having boonrip is a make or break issue for a class, that class was too dependant on boons in the first place and boonrip/corrupt is it's natural counter, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

> @"Heizero.9183" said: > Back in the day, like year 1 vanilla, Bountiful Theft used to rip full durations of boons, same with Larc strike. (I cant remember if it stole full stacks too, it may have.) To be fair it was a little op in some situations and abused. For example, I personally used to use it on Dredge in Eternal Battlegrounds in wvw to gain over 1 min of protection. Im sure there were even more ways to abuse it outside of my example and so they made every gained boon have a fixed duration. > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > You can't have 25 might because you pressed F1 on a 17-20 second cooldown while targeting someone who generated the 25 might. Stripping the might is enough. if you want that DPS you're going to need to take a glass amulet and a damage line. A thief can only 'abuse' boonrip if the other player is 'abusing' boons. Bountiful theft isn't the problem here.

It's pretty funny how people say ranger is X or not good for Y when they're only really talking about one specific build, as if people are incapable of playing the class in any other way. Anyways, carry on.

> @"kash.9213" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > > > > > > > Honestly? > > > > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > > > > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > > > > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > > > > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > > > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > > > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > > > > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > > > > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > > > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > > > > Goodbye D/P > > > > > > > > > > #;9 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > > > > > > > > > > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > > > > > > > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. > > > > > > If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. > > > > That was the point of me saying that it'd pave the way for buffs without making D/P even more OP. Stuff like making PI actually useable was part of what I meant by that. > > I could go with a quick non stackable stealth comparable to the Silent Scope duration for stealth off of leaps, or they could bake more stealth into skills or traits like Silent Scope dodge or Cloak and Dagger. That's the idea; less stealth on initiative skills that don't require interaction with an enemy (like heartseeker), more stealth on traits/skills with tweakable cooldowns and on skills like cloak and dagger that need to hit something. The idea is that you'd have roughly the same access to stealth for an engage and during combat to set up sneak attacks through traits and skills, but to remove some of the cheese factor from D/P by making stealth less spammable and forcing you to use multiple sources of stealth. You'd still be able to stealth allies with blasts (or yourself if out of combat via weapon swap), and you'd still be able to use black powder, blinding powder then cluster bomb to stealth to move around the map in PvP to hide your rotations, so it ought to be doable.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > > > Honestly? > > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > > Goodbye D/P > > > > > > #;9 > > > > > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > > > > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > > > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. > > If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. That was the point of me saying that it'd pave the way for buffs without making D/P even more OP. Stuff like making PI actually useable was part of what I meant by that.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > Honestly? > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > Goodbye D/P > > #;9 > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Tridentuk.1625" said: > > OP: Only zergs, no other playstyles allowed please! > > > > I mean it's not like thief is OP in terms of impact, that much is clear since most of the impact COMES from the zerg where thieves are literally the worst class. > > > > I don't get this type of mentality- why don't you like variety in gameplay? All you want to do is faceroll into a big blob of players hitting your rotations every time like smashing your face into a brick wall over and over with no variables other than a little bit of skill and basically the numbers in the zerg itself? Is this how you approach your general life? > > > > Like I'm not knocking zerging and mindflaying with a big blob of allies, it's really fun, but I don't understand how you can knock variety in gameplay. It adds complexity. > > Another mentality i don't get is when players built for zerg combat come and complain after being killed en route to their zerg by a player built for roaming and then come on the forums screaming that the class they got killed by are broken op. Its not like the roamer would be as effective as a zergling in a zerg fight. Exactly. If you bring a thief or ranger to a zerg situation, you get shouted down and told to reroll. Not sure why they are surprised when they get told to reroll after bringing a zerg build roaming, it's literally the same principle in reverse haha