Siege Revisions

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > >It also reinforces zerk stat play because ac's really only hurt zerk stat players.

> >

> > Um no but also what's wrong with zerk stats?

>

> Because not all of us like zergs or ktrains.

 

Wut.

 

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > >It also reinforces zerk stat play because ac's really only hurt zerk stat players.

> > >

> > > Um no but also what's wrong with zerk stats?

> >

> > Because not all of us like zergs or ktrains.

>

> Wut.

>

 

zerker stats are bursty and only work when you're in a zerg or a ktrain group. (And it's better in PVE). They are not particularly helpful if their burst is mitigated by something else. Because they are running full burst and no tank they can get half-healthed by most siege. People in bursty builds die fast. That's the trade off. Sure they can do a lot of up-front damage but people in tankier builds live longer in AC fire.

 

As I said, I don't really like zergs or ktrains and siege tends to prevent bursty builds from taking over WvW. PVE stats should stay in PVE, ok maybe not entirely fair here but if you take a bursty build you shouldn't complain if you die to siege. You chose to be bursty not tanky. . I like the build diversity in WvW and I'd hate to see it become the same stagnant build choices PVE has (Condi or Zerker... depending on which was nerfed harder in the last patch for PVE, No thanks.)

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > > > > > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Going to an enemy tower and taking out a treb is offense. It faster using an AC then a balli.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Completely false

> > > > > > > > Just like the hammer weilding burn guardians. Why do you keep making these rediculous claims?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What are you on about? Taking out a treb at swt takes all of one AC and two people to build. It next to impossible for the enemy player to take it out from that tower. when you get one down below unless he comes down to get you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You didn't mention swt in your first post but so be it.

> > > > > > It's faster to eliminate that treb from the arena with a ballista.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why do you suggest otherwise if you have not tried it

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Did you think this was a new discovery? It's a 5 year old tactic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > and what does this have to do with a Guardian?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That was about you giving hairbrained build advice to new players about a class you hadn't even played. I don't forget, apparently you do. I also recall you advocating no endure pain on warrior.. A veritible wellspring of bad ideas and common knowledge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > You can build a balli in those ruins but if the enemy is throwing one up as well he can get it up faster while staying IN The tower and take your balli out. A Balli is harder to place so as to be able to hit an AC below .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > An AC by the trebs counters your AC below in addition to player skills which can hit it, the ballista is successful more often. Also 5 year old knowledge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Another tip, some people put up Trebs in SWC etc to hit bay. If there no countertreb able to reach you can take it out , very often with a Mortar while using the incendiary component while the Damage component does not work because the damage bit has to be dead on and the treb can be just out of range. This works remarkabley well when the enemy using Shield gens as well. I have seen people pull off a mortar using the blast version because "they can not hit the target" and swapped to incendiary and taken the target down. This also helps to flush the enemy out of the area of their trebs/gens allowing others to get in closer and wreck them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This also works with Cows. A slow process to be sure but if you do have a counter treb up on the wall in Bay you very often can not reach the Treb in SWT. Switch to cow and the AOE can catch it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A VERITIBLE WELLSPRING

> > > > >

> > > > > Added to this, if the ballista by the arena isn't an option because of a counter one in the tower, I've built a guild cata where the ballista can't hit because of line of sight and been able to hit both the ballista and the treb. Much simpler as the AC, Cata, and the ballista all need at least two people.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if you are running small groups without Guild catas, you're doing it wrong.

> > > >

> > > > Not everyone is in a Guild that has them (just saying). I generally just build some superior ones when I can't get a bali up there.

> > >

> > > They are cheap to build. But need a scribe. It's worth it.

> >

> > Exactly, having a scribe is costly unfortunately (It's probably the most expensive of the different skills. I've yet to finish leveling mine up).

>

> Yeah.... I bit the bullet with help from the guild. If you are small, it's harder. We have 5-7 active which made it ok.

 

Yeah it's a small guild... There are about 2 active players at any given time. I think there's like 10 total in the guild that I have my scribe in. I have a WvW guild but I'm not comfortable using guild siege from it (and I'm not even sure I'm able to).

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> zerker stats are bursty and only work when you're in a zerg or a ktrain group. (And it's better in PVE). They are not particularly helpful if their burst is mitigated by something else. Which is why they can get half-healthed by most siege. People in bursty builds die fast. Sure they can do a lot of up-front damage but people in tankier builds live longer in AC fire.

>

> As I said, I don't really like zergs or ktrains and siege tends to prevent bursty builds from taking over WvW. PVE stats should stay in PVE. I like the build diversity in WvW and I'd hate to see it become the same stagnant build choices PVE has (Condi or Zerker... depending on which was nerfed harder in the last patch for PVE, No thanks.)

 

Oh boy. I don't even know where to start with this one. It's like some of you guys are playing a completely different game.

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > zerker stats are bursty and only work when you're in a zerg or a ktrain group. (And it's better in PVE). They are not particularly helpful if their burst is mitigated by something else. Which is why they can get half-healthed by most siege. People in bursty builds die fast. Sure they can do a lot of up-front damage but people in tankier builds live longer in AC fire.

> >

> > As I said, I don't really like zergs or ktrains and siege tends to prevent bursty builds from taking over WvW. PVE stats should stay in PVE. I like the build diversity in WvW and I'd hate to see it become the same stagnant build choices PVE has (Condi or Zerker... depending on which was nerfed harder in the last patch for PVE, No thanks.)

>

> Oh boy. I don't even know where to start with this one. It's like some of you guys are playing a completely different game.

 

From what I've been reading, it's sort of like you're not aware that certain stats give you more ... tankiness/health/etc and that burst is nice but it also means squishy ie easy to kill. Meaning I survive your initial burst and you will die/ I interrupt your initial burst you die. I suppose if you're running a class that has innate skills that give you more heal and protections (ie a war) you can get away with a burst build but in general? Zerker means you're a free bag waiting to happen.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > zerker stats are bursty and only work when you're in a zerg or a ktrain group. (And it's better in PVE). They are not particularly helpful if their burst is mitigated by something else. Which is why they can get half-healthed by most siege. People in bursty builds die fast. Sure they can do a lot of up-front damage but people in tankier builds live longer in AC fire.

> > >

> > > As I said, I don't really like zergs or ktrains and siege tends to prevent bursty builds from taking over WvW. PVE stats should stay in PVE. I like the build diversity in WvW and I'd hate to see it become the same stagnant build choices PVE has (Condi or Zerker... depending on which was nerfed harder in the last patch for PVE, No thanks.)

> >

> > Oh boy. I don't even know where to start with this one. It's like some of you guys are playing a completely different game.

>

> From what I've been reading, it's sort of like you're not aware that certain stats give you more ... tankiness/health/etc and that burst is nice but it also means squishy ie easy to kill. Meaning I survive your initial burst and you will die/ I interrupt your initial burst you die. I suppose if you're running a class that has innate skills that give you more heal and protections (ie a war) you can get away with a burst build but in general? Zerker means you're a free bag waiting to happen.

 

Yeah no I'm new to the game tell me what stats are people using in WvW these days?

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > Are some of you really expecting to be untouchable on walls?

>

> Nah, I'd just like to be able to fight back on equal footing... In real life the defenders on top of a wall have an advantage (that's why the wall is there), in this game it's kind of a problem. No line of sight makes it hard to target so if the enemy is bunched targeting becomes a pain. Bali's can't really hit cata's if the cata is hugging the wall. Giving bonuses to the oils won't matter since few commanders actually go anywhere near them and those dumb enough to stand on them get pulled immediately into the enemy zerg. If there are 15 of us holding something waiting on reinforcements the last thing I intend to do is stupidly jump into a group of 40+ that's just handing out free bags. If I can be targeted without line of sight then I should have the same option back. So why is it fine for no line of sight from AOE abilities but AC"s (which don't require line of sight either) are now nerfed?

 

The wall is there to stop you from walking in. If the wall is a "disadvantage" why on earth don't you jump down and fight htem outside if it's more advantageous? If "attackers" have an advantage as you claim in previous posts, why are you sitting inside your towers complaining about disadvantages? You choose to defend while saying it's a disadvantage - it is not. Only expecting to be able to freecast from walls is, which you frankly CAN do with acs and smart movement in most cases.

 

You state "inner is easier than outer". That's only true if the defenders are, how to say this, really bad at the game. Inner and lordsroom are both harder than outer, by a long shot. However most defenders are, as stated, really really really super duper bad. Half the time they'll waste almost all supplies repairing outer and randomly sieging. I like how in another post you also state "sometimes players pull tactics early and you lose the objective". I'm sorry but that's massive learn to play issues which SHOULD be punishable.

 

You want players to "drain the supply". In the past, supply was used for upgrading AND sieging. You gathered it a lot slower (no auto upgrades, dollies, ...) and so forth. In the current state, when prime starts most servers in EU have 2-4k supply on their border. Draining supply literally takes longer than the entirity of EU prime time. It takes longer than a guild raid if defenders aren't fully wasting it repairing outers.

So truthfully, a long siege the way you want is something which doesnt' happen because it's exceptionally boring and only promotes defenders. But hey, "attackers have the advantage". No they do not - defenders are just bad players expecting to be rewarded for it. If you dont have the coverage to stay in a tier you need to lose objectives, PPT and go down. Not be rewarded for shooting ACs with bags and PPT, only to further enable the population differences.

 

Defenders who insist on defending structures while heavily outnumbered (and often outskilled too, to be frank) are the reason we have the population differences. The reason people do not bother with T3 keeps unless they have a massive blob or hte walls are already open is because against half decent defenders it is futile. It takes hours and there is absolutely no goal or reward. Defenders can play their PPT game while avoiding all combat, at all times. Lovely for carebears, but unfortunately most commanders and pugs won't bother.

And when 3 defensive PPT servers match up? Half the borderlands T3, half EB T3 and during prime it's constant defensive siege fests where nobody can attack... anything, because they lack the skill, resulting in a 5 hour stalemate on primetime and PPT being won by the 20v5 off prime.

 

The idea of draining a keep isn't a thing anymore. You can run sups from EOTM and a million maps. The amount of supply generated has massively increased; and if defenders aren't insanely bad at the game they can use supply considerably more sparingly than attackers; often in 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. Expecting "supply to be drained" just to OPEN a keep with defenders who cannot (or will not) contest you any way outside of siege is absolutely absurd and the reason so many players would rather log off.

I'm sure you enjoy shooting your ACs and getting occasional bags for the entiretly of primetime, but most of us do not.

 

Keep in mind in that "4-5 hour prime time" is the most active WvW on both EU and NA. And no, not a single sane person will go drain a keep unless you're making a statement to the PPT pleb servers that frankly, even with 5k supply, their T3 garri and a queue'd map on prime they still lose at their own game. And it takes what... 1 hour to upgrade garri back to T3 ? It's literally faster to upgrade it than it is to flip it.

 

Sorry but the 4-5 hours primetime on EU have more kills and action than the 24/7 coverage wars of NA simply because you bother playing slow siege PPT wars which are exceptionally boring. It has lead to major population balance issues in EU; where pure "defense" servers can NEVER fight open field against stronger servers, but consistently win PPT by nightcap and pure avoiding / defense (despite also having numbers because prime) around prime time. It has also made it that there is no link between player skill and PPT; only a link between how badly you wanna PPT like a monkey. A person manning acs 5 hours a day is just too "useful" for their skill.

 

You say population balance is the issue; yet you again demand / expect to defend keeps 10 v 50 for several hours. THIS IS WHY THE POPULATION INBALANCE EXISTS. Because the PPT / scoring system does not work, because defense is heavily overpowered. Yet you have the audacity of saying defenders have the advantage, rather than realising there's just nobody in the game that wants to bother with tanking your acs to fight your walls and gates for several hours while being shot by ACs for 1 champion bag, knowing you'll flee as soon as your wall is breached.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Wait wait wait. People think NA has 24/7 coverage still? To my knowledge most of the SEA transferred to EU (Like Seph's blob or mgr) or they quit. Even the EU that was on NA transferred to EU (PA/Kazo).

 

Not saying there aren't anomalies in NA like Xushin or TPA. NA isn't fat in 2018 or even 2017, most probably moved onto some other PvP fad (Battle Royale!!!!!).

 

So come to EU (albeit at the expense of +100-200 ping). NA/EU designation (and some comparisons even) are about as useful as server pride in 2018. Go where the peeps at like SEA did so long go.

 

D:

 

Also, anyone that thinks the OP's siege changes are ever going to affect population discrepancies...well they won't. However, the irony is if you can reset all of your siege indefinitely because of your superior coverage then you will have even more advantage... **Honestly having siege poof after 2 hours would have resolved the AC clutter that people so feared.** It'd be 250 supply if they wanted 5 acs on every gate. That's a lot of maintenance cost as it should be since supply is a temporary resource. Siege timers not being reset was already mentioned in the previous thread even.

[aspirine.5839]

What are the odds that etheri is on Vabbi, or on vabbi wannabe WSR. I'd say 100% :)

[Garrus.7403]

> @"aspirine.5839" said:

> What are the odds that etheri is on Vabbi, or on vabbi wannabe WSR. I'd say 100% :)

 

Did you get farmed by big evil vabbi and wsr blobs? Dont worry you are not alone.

[aspirine.5839]

> @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > @"aspirine.5839" said:

> > What are the odds that etheri is on Vabbi, or on vabbi wannabe WSR. I'd say 100% :)

>

> Did you get farmed by big evil vabbi and wsr blobs? Dont worry you are not alone.

 

Vabbi is good yes, but they are not the nicest bunch around :) I would not call them evil, just filled with people that sound very similar to that guy. That's all.

[Israel.7056]

> @"aspirine.5839" said:

> Vabbi is good yes, but they are not the nicest bunch around :) I would not call them evil, just filled with people that sound very similar to that guy. That's all.

 

They're pretty tame imo.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Ktrain (nerf defense) and easy kills (stacking) are what people are looking for. People can keep trying hard to justify things but actions and results always speak for itself. Only fools will buy into shill and fuds.

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

> @"Shadowzerk.4715" said:

> a group of zerg has 30~50 ppl @ a T3 tower

> with 10 cata 4 shield gen.

>

> question: anet, how could u def a T3 tower with 10~20 men?

> u could do it in Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online (RvR)

> but not in Guild Wars 2, no way. waste all supply and port asap is the best option.

>

> siege weapons on def are almost useless against shield gen.

 

You can just ac the shield generators since generators can no longer protect themselves.

[aspirine.5839]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"aspirine.5839" said:

> > Vabbi is good yes, but they are not the nicest bunch around :) I would not call them evil, just filled with people that sound very similar to that guy. That's all.

>

> They're pretty tame imo.

 

Well I am used to them when they were always last on the leaderboards, because they really did not give a damn about ppt. And then they were the nicest bunch around. But since the bandwagon part I doubt there are much of them left. Perhaps ASH is still from around that time, not sure.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > @"Shadowzerk.4715" said:

> > a group of zerg has 30~50 ppl @ a T3 tower

> > with 10 cata 4 shield gen.

> >

> > question: anet, how could u def a T3 tower with 10~20 men?

> > u could do it in Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online (RvR)

> > but not in Guild Wars 2, no way. waste all supply and port asap is the best option.

> >

> > siege weapons on def are almost useless against shield gen.

>

> You can just ac the shield generators since generators can no longer protect themselves.

 

Must be new to wvw, cata outrange ac. Bubble with mastery is big enough to cover frontal cata and treb shots even if bubble doesn't cover sg itself. That changes only affect brute force with ram.

 

Edit: Most part, we don't even put sg with cata anyway, we will put sg way further behind so not to let cata reach siege limit thus only treb shot can reach it but then again, more sg will fix that issue.

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > Are some of you really expecting to be untouchable on walls?

> >

> > Nah, I'd just like to be able to fight back on equal footing... In real life the defenders on top of a wall have an advantage (that's why the wall is there), in this game it's kind of a problem. No line of sight makes it hard to target so if the enemy is bunched targeting becomes a pain. Bali's can't really hit cata's if the cata is hugging the wall. Giving bonuses to the oils won't matter since few commanders actually go anywhere near them and those dumb enough to stand on them get pulled immediately into the enemy zerg. If there are 15 of us holding something waiting on reinforcements the last thing I intend to do is stupidly jump into a group of 40+ that's just handing out free bags. If I can be targeted without line of sight then I should have the same option back. So why is it fine for no line of sight from AOE abilities but AC"s (which don't require line of sight either) are now nerfed?

>

> The wall is there to stop you from walking in. If the wall is a "disadvantage" why on earth don't you jump down and fight htem outside if it's more advantageous? If "attackers" have an advantage as you claim in previous posts, why are you sitting inside your towers complaining about disadvantages? You choose to defend while saying it's a disadvantage - it is not. Only expecting to be able to freecast from walls is, which you frankly CAN do with acs and smart movement in most cases.

 

Because I'm not going to be a free bag. It's pretty simple, I usually end up at the objectives first. RIght when they're being hit by an enemy team. If the group is small enough I'll engage them but only if I have close to equal numbers or a few people I know that will help me burst squishies and drop disables. If I don't have enough people, I'll still use disables but I'm not going to run into the enemy like an idiot. If the group is large then I'm building siege and doing annoying things like disables/ and supply traps at the chokes of nearest camps if I can sneak in. I put up AC's because Bali's are mostly useless. (You can use them at ruins to take out a treb and you can sometimes use them in the DesertBBL). I also have trebs, catas etc put up but their placement isn't really as useful either. I put catas near gates to smack rams because you can live longer doing that then if you are standing anywhere near an oil. The walls are AOE zones of pain and most defenses on them are pretty worthless. (Outer) Inner is a different matter completely. If you'd read anything I'd written afterwards you'd note that I do delay tactics till reinforcements can make it. If reinforcements aren't coming, I'll fight rather than just let the Keep go down and I'll use whatever tactics I have there. I prefer to scout and skirmish, I hate blobs/zerging etc. I choose to defend because it's a freaking Keep and I probably spent most of my day guarding camps to get it to whatever tier it's currently at. I am on at the off-hours so sometimes I have to choose to retreat rather than to engage (usually back to inner). Not everyone gets to be on when their server has prime-time. Some of us are "extra coverage" and if there's a few of us I'll jump into the enemy to disable the siege or start trying to damage it. I'm not a passive user of an AC unless they've completely outnumbered me and then it's only to get them to back off the siege long enough for me to disable it. More often then not I just pull back to inner prep the tactics in case of emergency and call out on map/team periodically with the state of the outer wall/inner wall. Most commanders don't come till the outer is down (sometimes they'll come with it nearly down).

>

> You state "inner is easier than outer". That's only true if the defenders are, how to say this, really bad at the game. Inner and lordsroom are both harder than outer, by a long shot. However most defenders are, as stated, really really really super duper bad. Half the time they'll waste almost all supplies repairing outer and randomly sieging. I like how in another post you also state "sometimes players pull tactics early and you lose the objective". I'm sorry but that's massive learn to play issues which SHOULD be punishable.

 

I'm pretty sure I said outer and meant outer is easier to take then inner. Outer is always easier to break through because the Aoe pain train that can get you at the walls. It's a bit more difficult at inner and it should be.

>

> You want players to "drain the supply". In the past, supply was used for upgrading AND sieging. You gathered it a lot slower (no auto upgrades, dollies, ...) and so forth. In the current state, when prime starts most servers in EU have 2-4k supply on their border. Draining supply literally takes longer than the entirity of EU prime time. It takes longer than a guild raid if defenders aren't fully wasting it repairing outers.

> So truthfully, a long siege the way you want is something which doesnt' happen because it's exceptionally boring and only promotes defenders. But hey, "attackers have the advantage". No they do not - defenders are just bad players expecting to be rewarded for it. If you dont have the coverage to stay in a tier you need to lose objectives, PPT and go down. Not be rewarded for shooting ACs with bags and PPT, only to further enable the population differences.

 

So, you've never taken all of the camps then killed the yaks. Then killed the people running to the keep to with supply from other keeps/towers? You've never dropped supply traps along the way to the keep that the enemy is trying to protect? You know to drain their supply? Seriously? You just let them keep resupplying? No wonder you have this problem with Tier3 Keeps. You've never continually bombarded the walls on outer and inner forcing them to repair? Or are you talking EBG which would make that kind of play difficult since everything is closer together and it's a lot harder to kill the stragglers running to keeps/towers? If you're talking about EBG, then switch maps and get tier 3 keeps elsewhere.. It's not that hard.

 

>

> Defenders who insist on defending structures while heavily outnumbered (and often outskilled too, to be frank) are the reason we have the population differences. The reason people do not bother with T3 keeps unless they have a massive blob or hte walls are already open is because against half decent defenders it is futile. It takes hours and there is absolutely no goal or reward. Defenders can play their PPT game while avoiding all combat, at all times. Lovely for carebears, but unfortunately most commanders and pugs won't bother.

> And when 3 defensive PPT servers match up? Half the borderlands T3, half EB T3 and during prime it's constant defensive siege fests where nobody can attack... anything, because they lack the skill, resulting in a 5 hour stalemate on primetime and PPT being won by the 20v5 off prime.

 

Please, I've defended and killed groups twice my groups size. Not from hanging out on AC's but from knowing how to split them and kill their squishies. I scout and skirmish, I'm not a fan of the "run at the blob with my blob" kinda fighting. I like doing annoying things like tapping the enemy keeps (all of them) and taking all their camps before I start attacking one of their keeps. I'll drop paper siege at enemy keeps to hold them tapped . Sometimes I'll drop paper siege down a line so that the guards have to come kill multiple pieces (that holds the keep tapped longer). I will even go onto other maps and drop siege to tap there as well. I'm often alone or with a small group of people when I do this... Geez, just sounds like you're not trying hard enough or trying something different. I've flipped tier 3's with less than 5 people before. While the enemy had us Outnumbered. If you don't back off the first time you attack something but keep going for it you will eventually drain the supply at the keep. Especially if you've got roamers killing yaks and keep the camps from being flipped for the Keep you want to take. If you keep the enemy keeps tapped then they're going to have to run to where you are vs easily getting there. That's where you station people to kill the reinforcements straggling in since they can be carrying things like "supply". If you keep pounding on those walls they will eventually not have enough supply to stop you. If you tap keeps all day and people get used to the idea that it's just "tapped" you can take a keep because no one is bothering to look anymore.

 

>

> The idea of draining a keep isn't a thing anymore. You can run sups from EOTM and a million maps. The amount of supply generated has massively increased; and if defenders aren't insanely bad at the game they can use supply considerably more sparingly than attackers; often in 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. Expecting "supply to be drained" just to OPEN a keep with defenders who cannot (or will not) contest you any way outside of siege is absolutely absurd and the reason so many players would rather log off.

> I'm sure you enjoy shooting your ACs and getting occasional bags for the entiretly of primetime, but most of us do not.

 

Lol, and now you're making assumptions. I don't spend all day on AC's. I only head over to a keep to check it if it's crossed. Otherwise I'm flipping camps, walking yaks, finding skirmishes. Taking enemy camps/towers/tapping enemy keeps etc... During prime time I'm causing havoc not hanging out on an AC.

 

I also have been known to run to other maps that commanders aren't on to tap all of the keeps on those maps forcing someone to have to check them and checking response times. All I keep reading is "I want to blob, fight, and blob some more. I want an easy ktrain not have someone who doesn't want to engage with my blob." Yeah, I won't engage with a blob if I'm solo (that's suicide) but I might kill the stragglers and I will always kill their yaks and try to hold their camps and sentry's. It's called strategy and causing trouble.

 

 

> Keep in mind in that "4-5 hour prime time" is the most active WvW on both EU and NA. And no, not a single sane person will go drain a keep unless you're making a statement to the PPT pleb servers that frankly, even with 5k supply, their T3 garri and a queue'd map on prime they still lose at their own game. And it takes what... 1 hour to upgrade garri back to T3 ? It's literally faster to upgrade it than it is to flip it.

 

 

1 hour? Really? You've obviously never done this before.. If you own ALL of the camps and have double yaks running plus escorts the fastest is 3 hours. You have to have 20 yaks till tier 1, 40 yaks till tier 2, 80 yaks till tier 3. If you double stack yaks you can do it in 3 otherwise it's a lot longer. If the enemy team kills yaks or flips camps during that time frame it takes even longer. Towers are shorter periods sure but a full keep? That's a LONG TIME commitment for the people who are trying to get it up there.

 

>

> Sorry but the 4-5 hours primetime on EU have more kills and action than the 24/7 coverage wars of NA simply because you bother playing slow siege PPT wars which are exceptionally boring. It has lead to major population balance issues in EU; where pure "defense" servers can NEVER fight open field against stronger servers, but consistently win PPT by nightcap and pure avoiding / defense (despite also having numbers because prime) around prime time. It has also made it that there is no link between player skill and PPT; only a link between how badly you wanna PPT like a monkey. A person manning acs 5 hours a day is just too "useful" for their skill.

 

I don't play on an EU server, though I do live in the EU. It still just sounds like no one is bothering with the tactics of how you take something. I don't like blob fights/ktrains or other pointless running at the enemy for hours on end. I do however enjoy scouting, skirmishing and coming up with strategic ways to take something that I shouldn't be able to.

 

>

> You say population balance is the issue; yet you again demand / expect to defend keeps 10 v 50 for several hours. THIS IS WHY THE POPULATION INBALANCE EXISTS. Because the PPT / scoring system does not work, because defense is heavily overpowered. Yet you have the audacity of saying defenders have the advantage, rather than realising there's just nobody in the game that wants to bother with tanking your acs to fight your walls and gates for several hours while being shot by ACs for 1 champion bag, knowing you'll flee as soon as your wall is breached.

 

I said population is part of the problem.... But apparently no one bothering to keep fighting over a keep because it wasn't an easy cap seems to be your biggest problem... I've prepped taking a keep for 4 hours then took it with 5. It's not hard, you just have to be prepared to actually keep doing something till you succeed. If you back off after your first failure and you don't keep going then that's a matter of not bothering to hold to a strategy and it sounds like you want a free ktrain vs an actual battle.

 

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> The more I think about how disparate some of these values are the more I think it's like two groups of people playing the same game but with wildly different priorities and approaches and so some people end up seeing arrow carts and siege more broadly as this great equalizer whereas others like myself see it as a gimmicky crutch that ruins the action in this game by giving bad players an effective out. I don't think I can convince siege users to stop relying on siege anymore than they can convince me to start using siege and I do not believe in compromise so I think one group is ultimately going to just leave the game completely and I think it will be my group. Then all that will be left is bad players shooting siege at one another back and forth until anet closes the servers.

 

So yes, there are multiple ways to play the same game mode.. I know it might come as a shock but scouts don't often run with the blob. They might sometimes be in a squad for "credit" but we're not next it. In fact we're usually testing the enemy response times and involved in small scale squirmishes. We're the ones tapping keeps and we're the ones doing the "antics" that enable a squad. We're also generally the ones who arrive at an objective first and we're the ones who report back the numbers/tallies/etc to Team/Map. So we're usually also the first line of defense but also the first line in the offense as well.

 

Some of us actually do things like escort yaks all day long till we get a keep to tier 3. From paper to Tier 3 it's about 3-4 hours of my time, so you can be absolutely sure if I'm on after I've just spent 3-4 hours upgrading a keep? (its 20 yaks till tier 1, 40 yaks till tier 2, and 80 yaks till tier 3 and I've been watching the camps/walking the yaks that WHOLE time). I'm going to hold it. I will stand in a camp with an Omega sometimes to hold that camp long enough to get a speed upgrade or the double yak upgrade running. It's not like we're not fighting. We spend a LOT of time fighting other roamers in skirmishes. In fact I average several fights per hour because I'm trying to hold a camp (you know something that has zero walls , this "fight nirvana" thing that apparently blobbers wish existed, but they're not willing to fight over). I don't always win either, sometimes I lose. Which means I have to come back and back-cap it.

 

Our way of playing the game means we spend a LOT of time getting those keeps to Tier 3. It's not "passive" because we're actively near a camp or walking BY OURSELVES with a yak (which means we're out in the open and can be attacked by enemies at any time and we don't have a blob to run to for safety). So, no, we don't want to watch them get capped by a group whose only "gift" is superior numbers. I will hold even if I have to fall back to Lord and fight next to Lord. Because most of my day is spent keeping things the tier they are or upgrading things. While that might not be glamorous or "fun" for the ktrain/blobbers it IS fun for people like me and part of the reason I stayed in the game-mode to begin with.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > The more I think about how disparate some of these values are the more I think it's like two groups of people playing the same game but with wildly different priorities and approaches and so some people end up seeing arrow carts and siege more broadly as this great equalizer whereas others like myself see it as a gimmicky crutch that ruins the action in this game by giving bad players an effective out. I don't think I can convince siege users to stop relying on siege anymore than they can convince me to start using siege and I do not believe in compromise so I think one group is ultimately going to just leave the game completely and I think it will be my group. Then all that will be left is bad players shooting siege at one another back and forth until anet closes the servers.

>

> So yes, there are multiple ways to play the same game mode.. I know it might come as a shock but scouts don't often run with the blob. They might sometimes be in a squad for "credit" but we're not next it. In fact we're usually testing the enemy response times and involved in small scale squirmishes. We're the ones tapping keeps and we're the ones doing the "antics" that enable a squad. We're also generally the ones who arrive at an objective first and we're the ones who report back the numbers/tallies/etc to Team/Map. So we're usually also the first line of defense but also the first line in the offense as well.

>

> Some of us actually do things like escort yaks all day long till we get a keep to tier 3. From paper to Tier 3 it's about 3-4 hours of my time, so you can be absolutely sure if I'm on after I've just spent 3-4 hours upgrading a keep? its 20 yaks till tier 1, 40 yaks till tier 2, and 80 yaks till tier 3 and I've been watching the camps/walking the yaks that WHOLE time... I'm going to hold it. I will stand in a camp with an Omega sometimes to hold that camp long enough to get a speed upgrade or the double yak upgrade running. Our way of playing the game means we spend a LOT of time getting those keeps to Tier 3. It's not "passive" because we're actively near a camp or walking BY OURSELVES with a yak. So, no, we don't want to watch them get capped by a group whose only "gift" is superior numbers. I will hold even if I have to fall back to Lord and fight next to Lord. Because most of my day is spent keeping things the tier they are or upgrading things. While that might not be glamorous or "fun" for the ktrain/blobbers it IS fun for people like me and part of the reason I stayed in the game-mode to begin with.

 

Well at least you're honest.

[Israel.7056]

> @"aspirine.5839" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"aspirine.5839" said:

> > > Vabbi is good yes, but they are not the nicest bunch around :) I would not call them evil, just filled with people that sound very similar to that guy. That's all.

> >

> > They're pretty tame imo.

>

> Well I am used to them when they were always last on the leaderboards, because they really did not give a kitten about ppt. And then they were the nicest bunch around. But since the bandwagon part I doubt there are much of them left. Perhaps ASH is still from around that time, not sure.

 

I see. Well in my view it's a very chill server. Everyone is very polite. I've seen some Ash guys dunno if it's the same guild.

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > The more I think about how disparate some of these values are the more I think it's like two groups of people playing the same game but with wildly different priorities and approaches and so some people end up seeing arrow carts and siege more broadly as this great equalizer whereas others like myself see it as a gimmicky crutch that ruins the action in this game by giving bad players an effective out. I don't think I can convince siege users to stop relying on siege anymore than they can convince me to start using siege and I do not believe in compromise so I think one group is ultimately going to just leave the game completely and I think it will be my group. Then all that will be left is bad players shooting siege at one another back and forth until anet closes the servers.

> >

> > So yes, there are multiple ways to play the same game mode.. I know it might come as a shock but scouts don't often run with the blob. They might sometimes be in a squad for "credit" but we're not next it. In fact we're usually testing the enemy response times and involved in small scale squirmishes. We're the ones tapping keeps and we're the ones doing the "antics" that enable a squad. We're also generally the ones who arrive at an objective first and we're the ones who report back the numbers/tallies/etc to Team/Map. So we're usually also the first line of defense but also the first line in the offense as well.

> >

> > Some of us actually do things like escort yaks all day long till we get a keep to tier 3. From paper to Tier 3 it's about 3-4 hours of my time, so you can be absolutely sure if I'm on after I've just spent 3-4 hours upgrading a keep? its 20 yaks till tier 1, 40 yaks till tier 2, and 80 yaks till tier 3 and I've been watching the camps/walking the yaks that WHOLE time... I'm going to hold it. I will stand in a camp with an Omega sometimes to hold that camp long enough to get a speed upgrade or the double yak upgrade running. Our way of playing the game means we spend a LOT of time getting those keeps to Tier 3. It's not "passive" because we're actively near a camp or walking BY OURSELVES with a yak. So, no, we don't want to watch them get capped by a group whose only "gift" is superior numbers. I will hold even if I have to fall back to Lord and fight next to Lord. Because most of my day is spent keeping things the tier they are or upgrading things. While that might not be glamorous or "fun" for the ktrain/blobbers it IS fun for people like me and part of the reason I stayed in the game-mode to begin with.

>

> Well at least you're honest.

 

And I fight 1v1 or 1v2-3 a LOT during that time because Roamers are always taking camps /yaks and sentry's. It's not a "walk in the park" and it's not a boring Ktrain where I pointlessly rush into an enemy blob and hope my blob doesn't just evaporate etc.

 

I'll scout, I'll check things and I spend a LOT of my time with upkeep. It's not glamorous but it's fun. While YOU might like the ktrain/blobtrain mindlessness, I don't. I DO however enjoy out-thinking the enemy at an objective and I do love taking a tier 3 solo or with a small group after spending HOURS of prep time on it (tapping it over and over again till the enemy is numb to it). I spend TIME doing things, I don't just join a large group and expect to "insta-cap". I want that long battle if there's a blob. If they win I want it to be because they had superior tactics not just more people than me. My favorite moments have been when it's 2v1 group at a Keep. The group with the best tactics wins usually. It's kind of fun, sometimes I can repel both, sometimes I can't but the fights are epic. What I don't enjoy though is ktrain nonsense and blobbing nonsense. If there's not strategy it's boring.

 

But then again I've shown I'm not in it for the quick battle, I'm in it for the long term portion. You know, what happens AFTER that "cap" and then I like to make sure it won't be back-capped. It's people like "me" that make it possible for people like "you" to actually wp around the home bbl or to other maps Keeps. It's people like "me" who alert people like "you" about an oncoming battle or pass along the information about response times to a Commander. It's people like "me" who tell people like "you" where the enemy blob is that you wanted to fight.

 

While that might not be fun for "you" it is fun for people like "me".

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> And I fight 1v1 or 1v2-3 a LOT during that time because Roamers are always taking camps /yaks and sentry's. It's not a "walk in the park" and it's not a boring Ktrain where I pointlessly rush into an enemy blob and hope my blob doesn't just evaporate etc.

>

> I'll scout, I'll check things and I spend a LOT of my time with upkeep. It's not glamorous but it's fun. While YOU might like the ktrain/blobtrain mindlessness, I don't. I DO however enjoy out-thinking the enemy at an objective and I do love taking a tier 3 solo or with a small group after spending HOURS of prep time on it (tapping it over and over again till the enemy is numb to it). I spend TIME doing things, I don't just join a large group and expect to "insta-cap". I want that long battle if there's a blob. If they win I want it to be because they had superior tactics not just more people than me. My favorite moments have been when it's 2v1 group at a Keep. The group with the best tactics wins usually. It's kind of fun, sometimes I can repel both, sometimes I can't but the fights are epic. What I don't enjoy though is ktrain nonsense and blobbing nonsense. If there's not strategy it's boring.

>

> But then again I've shown I'm not in it for the quick battle, I'm in it for the long term portion. You know, what happens AFTER that "cap" and then I like to make sure it won't be back-capped. It's people like "me" that make it possible for people like "you" to actually wp around the home bbl or to other maps Keeps. It's people like "me" who alert people like "you" about an oncoming battle or pass along the information about response times to a Commander. It's people like "me" who tell people like "you" where the enemy blob is that you wanted to fight.

>

> While that might not be fun for "you" it is fun for people like "me".

 

You don't think there's any strategy involved in fighting other players without siege?

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > @"Shadowzerk.4715" said:

> > a group of zerg has 30~50 ppl @ a T3 tower

> > with 10 cata 4 shield gen.

> >

> > question: anet, how could u def a T3 tower with 10~20 men?

> > u could do it in Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online (RvR)

> > but not in Guild Wars 2, no way. waste all supply and port asap is the best option.

> >

> > siege weapons on def are almost useless against shield gen.

>

> You can just ac the shield generators since generators can no longer protect themselves.

 

Depends on where they place the generator. It's generally easier to just hit them with a cata or a treb (if you've got a treb God). AC's won't kill a generator very fast.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > > > Are some of you really expecting to be untouchable on walls?

> > >

> > > Nah, I'd just like to be able to fight back on equal footing... In real life the defenders on top of a wall have an advantage (that's why the wall is there), in this game it's kind of a problem. No line of sight makes it hard to target so if the enemy is bunched targeting becomes a pain. Bali's can't really hit cata's if the cata is hugging the wall. Giving bonuses to the oils won't matter since few commanders actually go anywhere near them and those dumb enough to stand on them get pulled immediately into the enemy zerg. If there are 15 of us holding something waiting on reinforcements the last thing I intend to do is stupidly jump into a group of 40+ that's just handing out free bags. If I can be targeted without line of sight then I should have the same option back. So why is it fine for no line of sight from AOE abilities but AC"s (which don't require line of sight either) are now nerfed?

> >

> > The wall is there to stop you from walking in. If the wall is a "disadvantage" why on earth don't you jump down and fight htem outside if it's more advantageous? If "attackers" have an advantage as you claim in previous posts, why are you sitting inside your towers complaining about disadvantages? You choose to defend while saying it's a disadvantage - it is not. Only expecting to be able to freecast from walls is, which you frankly CAN do with acs and smart movement in most cases.

>

> Because I'm not going to be a free bag. It's pretty simple, I usually end up at the objectives first. RIght when they're being hit by an enemy team. If the group is small enough I'll engage them but only if I have close to equal numbers or a few people I know that will help me burst squishies and drop disables. If I don't have enough people, I'll still use disables but I'm not going to run into the enemy like an idiot. If the group is large then I'm building siege and doing annoying things like disables/ and supply traps at the chokes of nearest camps if I can sneak in. I put up AC's because Bali's are mostly useless. (You can use them at ruins to take out a treb and you can sometimes use them in the DesertBBL). I also have trebs, catas etc put up but their placement isn't really as useful either. I put catas near gates to smack rams because you can live longer doing that then if you are standing anywhere near an oil. The walls are AOE zones of pain and most defenses on them are pretty worthless. (Outer) Inner is a different matter completely. If you'd read anything I'd written afterwards you'd note that I do delay tactics till reinforcements can make it. If reinforcements aren't coming, I'll fight rather than just let the Keep go down and I'll use whatever tactics I have there. I prefer to scout and skirmish, I hate blobs/zerging etc. I choose to defend because it's a freaking Keep and I probably spent most of my day guarding camps to get it to whatever tier it's currently at. I am on at the off-hours so sometimes I have to choose to retreat rather than to engage (usually back to inner). Not everyone gets to be on when their server has prime-time. Some of us are "extra coverage" and if there's a few of us I'll jump into the enemy to disable the siege or start trying to damage it. I'm not a passive user of an AC unless they've completely outnumbered me and then it's only to get them to back off the siege long enough for me to disable it. More often then not I just pull back to inner prep the tactics in case of emergency and call out on map/team periodically with the state of the outer wall/inner wall. Most commanders don't come till the outer is down (sometimes they'll come with it nearly down).

> >

> > You state "inner is easier than outer". That's only true if the defenders are, how to say this, really bad at the game. Inner and lordsroom are both harder than outer, by a long shot. However most defenders are, as stated, really really really super duper bad. Half the time they'll waste almost all supplies repairing outer and randomly sieging. I like how in another post you also state "sometimes players pull tactics early and you lose the objective". I'm sorry but that's massive learn to play issues which SHOULD be punishable.

>

> I'm pretty sure I said outer and meant outer is easier to take then inner. Outer is always easier to break through because the Aoe pain train that can get you at the walls. It's a bit more difficult at inner and it should be.

> >

> > You want players to "drain the supply". In the past, supply was used for upgrading AND sieging. You gathered it a lot slower (no auto upgrades, dollies, ...) and so forth. In the current state, when prime starts most servers in EU have 2-4k supply on their border. Draining supply literally takes longer than the entirity of EU prime time. It takes longer than a guild raid if defenders aren't fully wasting it repairing outers.

> > So truthfully, a long siege the way you want is something which doesnt' happen because it's exceptionally boring and only promotes defenders. But hey, "attackers have the advantage". No they do not - defenders are just bad players expecting to be rewarded for it. If you dont have the coverage to stay in a tier you need to lose objectives, PPT and go down. Not be rewarded for shooting ACs with bags and PPT, only to further enable the population differences.

>

> So, you've never taken all of the camps then killed the yaks. Then killed the people running to the keep to with supply from other keeps/towers? You've never dropped supply traps along the way to the keep that the enemy is trying to protect? You know to drain their supply? Seriously? You just let them keep resupplying? No wonder you have this problem with Tier3 Keeps. You've never continually bombarded the walls on outer and inner forcing them to repair? Or are you talking EBG which would make that kind of play difficult since everything is closer together and it's a lot harder to kill the stragglers running to keeps/towers? If you're talking about EBG, then switch maps and get tier 3 keeps elsewhere.. It's not that hard.

>

> >

> > Defenders who insist on defending structures while heavily outnumbered (and often outskilled too, to be frank) are the reason we have the population differences. The reason people do not bother with T3 keeps unless they have a massive blob or hte walls are already open is because against half decent defenders it is futile. It takes hours and there is absolutely no goal or reward. Defenders can play their PPT game while avoiding all combat, at all times. Lovely for carebears, but unfortunately most commanders and pugs won't bother.

> > And when 3 defensive PPT servers match up? Half the borderlands T3, half EB T3 and during prime it's constant defensive siege fests where nobody can attack... anything, because they lack the skill, resulting in a 5 hour stalemate on primetime and PPT being won by the 20v5 off prime.

>

> Please, I've defended and killed groups twice my groups size. Not from hanging out on AC's but from knowing how to split them and kill their squishies. I scout and skirmish, I'm not a fan of the "run at the blob with my blob" kinda fighting. I like doing annoying things like tapping the enemy keeps (all of them) and taking all their camps before I start attacking one of their keeps. I'll drop paper siege at enemy keeps to hold them tapped . Sometimes I'll drop paper siege down a line so that the guards have to come kill multiple pieces (that holds the keep tapped longer). I will even go onto other maps and drop siege to tap there as well. I'm often alone or with a small group of people when I do this... Geez, just sounds like you're not trying hard enough or trying something different. I've flipped tier 3's with less than 5 people before. While the enemy had us Outnumbered. If you don't back off the first time you attack something but keep going for it you will eventually drain the supply at the keep. Especially if you've got roamers killing yaks and keep the camps from being flipped for the Keep you want to take. If you keep the enemy keeps tapped then they're going to have to run to where you are vs easily getting there. That's where you station people to kill the reinforcements straggling in since they can be carrying things like "supply". If you keep pounding on those walls they will eventually not have enough supply to stop you. If you tap keeps all day and people get used to the idea that it's just "tapped" you can take a keep because no one is bothering to look anymore.

>

> >

> > The idea of draining a keep isn't a thing anymore. You can run sups from EOTM and a million maps. The amount of supply generated has massively increased; and if defenders aren't insanely bad at the game they can use supply considerably more sparingly than attackers; often in 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. Expecting "supply to be drained" just to OPEN a keep with defenders who cannot (or will not) contest you any way outside of siege is absolutely absurd and the reason so many players would rather log off.

> > I'm sure you enjoy shooting your ACs and getting occasional bags for the entiretly of primetime, but most of us do not.

>

> Lol, and now you're making assumptions. I don't spend all day on AC's. I only head over to a keep to check it if it's crossed. Otherwise I'm flipping camps, walking yaks, finding skirmishes. Taking enemy camps/towers/tapping enemy keeps etc... During prime time I'm causing havoc not hanging out on an AC.

>

> I also have been known to run to other maps that commanders aren't on to tap all of the keeps on those maps forcing someone to have to check them and checking response times. All I keep reading is "I want to blob, fight, and blob some more. I want an easy ktrain not have someone who doesn't want to engage with my blob." Yeah, I won't engage with a blob if I'm solo (that's suicide) but I might kill the stragglers and I will always kill their yaks and try to hold their camps and sentry's. It's called strategy and causing trouble.

>

>

> > Keep in mind in that "4-5 hour prime time" is the most active WvW on both EU and NA. And no, not a single sane person will go drain a keep unless you're making a statement to the PPT pleb servers that frankly, even with 5k supply, their T3 garri and a queue'd map on prime they still lose at their own game. And it takes what... 1 hour to upgrade garri back to T3 ? It's literally faster to upgrade it than it is to flip it.

>

>

> 1 hour? Really? You've obviously never done this before.. If you own ALL of the camps and have double yaks running plus escorts the fastest is 3 hours. You have to have 20 yaks till tier 1, 40 yaks till tier 2, 80 yaks till tier 3. If you double stack yaks you can do it in 3 otherwise it's a lot longer. If the enemy team kills yaks or flips camps during that time frame it takes even longer. Towers are shorter periods sure but a full keep? That's a LONG TIME commitment for the people who are trying to get it up there.

>

> >

> > Sorry but the 4-5 hours primetime on EU have more kills and action than the 24/7 coverage wars of NA simply because you bother playing slow siege PPT wars which are exceptionally boring. It has lead to major population balance issues in EU; where pure "defense" servers can NEVER fight open field against stronger servers, but consistently win PPT by nightcap and pure avoiding / defense (despite also having numbers because prime) around prime time. It has also made it that there is no link between player skill and PPT; only a link between how badly you wanna PPT like a monkey. A person manning acs 5 hours a day is just too "useful" for their skill.

>

> I don't play on an EU server, though I do live in the EU. It still just sounds like no one is bothering with the tactics of how you take something. I don't like blob fights/ktrains or other pointless running at the enemy for hours on end. I do however enjoy scouting, skirmishing and coming up with strategic ways to take something that I shouldn't be able to.

>

> >

> > You say population balance is the issue; yet you again demand / expect to defend keeps 10 v 50 for several hours. THIS IS WHY THE POPULATION INBALANCE EXISTS. Because the PPT / scoring system does not work, because defense is heavily overpowered. Yet you have the audacity of saying defenders have the advantage, rather than realising there's just nobody in the game that wants to bother with tanking your acs to fight your walls and gates for several hours while being shot by ACs for 1 champion bag, knowing you'll flee as soon as your wall is breached.

>

> I said population is part of the problem.... But apparently no one bothering to keep fighting over a keep because it wasn't an easy cap seems to be your biggest problem... I've prepped taking a keep for 4 hours then took it with 5. It's not hard, you just have to be prepared to actually keep doing something till you succeed. If you back off after your first failure and you don't keep going then that's a matter of not bothering to hold to a strategy and it sounds like you want a free ktrain vs an actual battle.

>

 

Let's start by plain falsehoods and lies.

It does NOT take 3 hours minimum to upgrade a keep. Most keeps upgrade FASTER than towers, because they have MULTIPLE camps that feed them dollies. Garries have 3 camps with dollies from both sides on NC. If you hold these 3 camps with packed dollies it's vastly under 3 hours on all maps. On desert BL you can upgrade garri from flipping to T3 in under 1 hour if you hold all three relevant camps. The idea that it's possible for towers but NOT keeps shows a major lack of knowledge for skirmish / roaming.

 

The idea that you are "fighting" by continuously ppt'ing. I'm sorry but if these were "fights" that we enjoyed, we'd go for htem for hours. But it's not a fight; it's a drawn out siege war and at the end i still do not get a fight. I get some karma with no reward, and whatever I flip will be upgraded AGAIN by the next day without fail. You think desieging a keep is a fight, I do not. You think hitting a door is a fight, I do not. Karma trains are also not fights.

 

A fight requires other players to use SKILLS in an attempt to KILL me. Not stop me from sieging their stuff. Not dissuade me from attacking their gate. Not hit a gate while getting hit by acs. Not pressing 1 on rams or golems or catas. We love the COMBAT of the game. And by all means I'm all for strategic gameplay, if there is a point to it. If draining a keep will get me fights. If opening the inner garri will get me a fight. If getting into T3 sm lordsroom gives me a fight.

But the reality is it does not. Most defenders give up when you get into inner, rather than lords. The moment you CAN come near and kill them, they port to spawn because they'd rather not give you bags. So what do I get for sticking with it for hours, which i've done countless times? Some karma? Another keep flip ? Sorry I have the WvW achievements, all of them, and more than 10 million karma. So unless my server is aiming to hard PPT to get to a certain matchup, there is no point to doing it. It's just done to show defenders we can, if we want to, and that we're better than them. And then we let them flip it back and log off, because they LIKE this boring gameplay and we do not. And it's so heavily favored towards running away and defending, over attacking, that frankly population and skill are mostly irrelevant. That's why you see "fight servers" unable to go up, and heavy PPT / siege / defense servers in T1 despite having negative KDA even in T2 and T3.

 

All I'm reading is "I run away when I can't win, gank and roam abit and a zerg shouldn't be able to touch me". I like to fight - not just blob, but fight. And it's not possible in WvW to force fights anymore. It's the same as you describe when you attack. "I flip a T3 with 5 players on outnumbered map" Great job, but if those players cared at all about fighting you you'd not have flipped it. I'm not INTERESTED IN FLIPPING OR DEFENDING STUFF BY ITSELF. I'm interested in OBJECTIVES for their role towards BALANCING FIGHTS. So if you backcap stuff without players bothering to even defend... Yay but this doesn't sound fun to me; just more fighting doors and siege and avoiding players. I mean "fighting tactically" ;). I get you feel like you PPT well, I'm sure you do. I fight well, but that means you just "won't feed me bags" and run away, then try again later. Forever. And you will win in PPT as I'll log off after you run away the 5th time, go up against stronger servers and complain about their numbers. I would be able to fight the stronger servers even outnumbered, but I can't PPT up there because full siege players playing their way.

 

I've killed groups 2 or 3 times our size too. Not by picking off their squishies. Simply by coordinating gameplay. You know what happens when you 15v40 karmatrain zerg twice? Oh right, they also go hide inside their objectives and shoot you with siege :) And pre HoT, we'd be able to open towers and force some fights in our disadvantage (outnumbered and their tower) but they'd fight. Nowadays they'll genuinely, genuinely, just spam ACs and make sure to avoid combat until you're bored, you leave and then they'll karma train.

 

Supply traps... Holy. Sorry but the map starts with 2-4k supply, of which 1-2k is pre built siege. Have fun! After that you need to... deal with T3 structures, 70 players on the map, kill them all, use your own supply for supply traps to prevent players from running supply from other maps, kill all dollies while contesting their stuff. For hours, with a lot of players and organised all because... You ran dollies for 3 hours?

Or everyone logs out and says "screw this". Guess what happens? Right, the second. Your expectations aren't in proportion. It takes ONE OR TWO players to upgrade a keep, or even general mappressure being enough. You expect 50 players to take the same time to take the keep from you, despite you never engaging them in combat. SIEGE WARS ARE NOT COMBAT. And truthfully, most keeps upgrade OFF eu prime when it's exceptionally easy... Frankly half the time you can afk in a golem in a camp and kill one guy every 15 minutes; particularly at night depending who you're up against.

 

So the effort of 90% of the players is irrelevant, because you find your effort is more important. That's how it is right now - defending being exceptionally broken and very unhealthy, because defenders that like to PPT cause population inbalances by PPT'ing their server to places they cannot compete offensively, ever. It is the idea that you should be able to defend despite population inbalances just because you put some effort in that leads to these inbalances; after all you're "fighting" them 50v5 in PPT succesfully stalling for quite long (and often indefinitely) meaning the matchmaking system CANNOT TELL the difference. You're asking for more population inbalance, while blaming population inbalance, while playing a style that leads to more population inbalance.... It's cute.

 

"Just sounds like nobody is bothering" FINALLY you're grasping it. No, we do not bother to sit playing siege wars for 3-5 hours of free time only to be invalidated by the actions of 3 players during off-prime. Because 50v50 fighting over objectives is impossible at this point - you people want to defend 50v5, not 50v50. Yet it doesn't stop whatever side loses from hiding inside their structures permanently. And smaller groups can't flip them, so they usually get upgraded and stay upgraded easily enough off-prime so most sides have some T3 stuff during prime. The result? Barely any fights and action.

The funniest part? Still more action, by a huge margin, than NA. PPT / Siege heavy gameplay isn't enjoyable for most of the population, is currently vastly overpowered and is unhealthy for both the balance of the game and population balance itself.

 

 

@"Israel.7056" It's a different Ash lol. One is a gvg guild, the other was a low end community guild. Old vabbi was the lowest rated deadest server in the game, which is exactly why the "bandwagoners" went there. To get away from... What exactly? OH wait, the bandwagon chasing them for free bags. In my opinion one of the nicest servers, because it's one of the few servers where there is still a community and coordinated gameplay. On most servers the community interaction is almost 0.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> "Just sounds like nobody is bothering" FINALLY you're grasping it. No, we do not bother to sit playing siege wars for 3-5 hours of free time only to be invalidated by the actions of 3 players during off-prime. Because 50v50 fighting over objectives is impossible at this point - you people want to defend 50v5, not 50v50. Yet it doesn't stop whatever side loses from hiding inside their structures permanently. And smaller groups can't flip them, so they usually get upgraded and stay upgraded easily enough off-prime so most sides have some T3 stuff during prime. The result? Barely any fights and action.

 

Yeah what ultimately happens is that a great deal of the fight oriented players leave to play other games where they can just log in and fight people and log off.

>

> @"Israel.7056" It's a different Ash lol. One is a gvg guild, the other was a low end community guild. Old vabbi was the lowest rated deadest server in the game, which is exactly why the "bandwagoners" went there. To get away from... What exactly? OH wait, the bandwagon chasing them for free bags. In my opinion one of the nicest servers, because it's one of the few servers where there is still a community and coordinated gameplay. On most servers the community interaction is almost 0.

 

Lol I hate "community guilds." They're always full of casuals.

 

I like Vabbi well enough it's sort of like Mag culturally, but not quite as much fun. Don't have to worry too much about PC nonsense and people seem to generally want to fight other players and not sit on siege all day so that's been nice.