So how do people feel about Condi now?

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Poseidon.3852" said:

> In my opinion, Conditions should be more like what other MMORPGs have... them being "DoTs". In other words, Damage over Time. Not bursty at all, EVER. They should put pressure on the target, slowly downing its hp, while other abilities of the one doing the DoTs should revolve around survivability while the enemies health is being depleted and/or some power damage.

>

> Conditions being bursty with no immunity post-cleanse, and relatively easy ways to apply it is just bad design in PvP. As for PvE, full stacks should desirable, but only be possible to achieve with at least 2 people applying the DoT, and they should support the overall dmg with power moves. DoTs (condition dmg) should either be a slow burn while the "DoTter" tries to survive until its enemy is dead or a support to medium power damage, where it is medium because the player chose to do a trade-off for survivability.

>

> I do understand that this is more "classical" than what GW2 tries to be as an MMORPG, but in my opinion, it is a much better solution to having DoTs (conditions) in a game than what GW2 chose to do. Just because GW2 tries to be different and you have to approach it as such, doesn't mean that everything is remotely good in whichever way you try to look at it.

 

Except that doesn't work in game where the PvP is high paced and has a low lethal damage threshold, and nearly every class has the ability to purge them once they reach threatening DPS levels. Other MMOs also favor group comps that demand dedicated healers by design. Prior to the change in how condi were stacked/balanced, very very few condi damage skills were threatening, and relied on the target having no way to purge them. Pressure damage is kind of worthless when all classes were designed, in core, to be able to heal and reset against in the same time frame for that damage to be dangerous. Also consider power damage multiples better, and the way our stats are managed forces a choice between one or the other. Even today, most hybrid builds still lag behind in damage then either focused condi or focused power, and the coefficient scaling plays a big part in that.

 

You're also working the assumption that group comp is normal...... With Open World solo being by far the most popular, that assumption can't be made. Theres also the matter of how our gear and stat investment works, already causing most players multiple gear sets for characters which run multiple builds. Making DOT a group component effectively shuts those builds out entirely from open world, where most players run solo or adhoc the majority of the time.

 

Fact of the matter is, damage is king with how so many of these games are designed. The faster you eliminate an enemy, the less threat they pose. Since they're performance is 100% up until they are downed or disabled, the most efficient path to either of those are what players are going to seek out. When you boil it down, condi and power are just sources of damage. Whats being underutilized in nearly all areas of PvE (and in most of PvP) is how Mob/Player durability is handled; and that component is what would make a huge distinction between the 2. They had designed for this from the beginning- but I can pin a lot of current evolution on very early changes to make mobs more typical to other MMOs, in response to player feed back about early AI being being too squirrely, and some mobs being too hard to fight. This solidified the damage sponge model, to which power damage could scale easily, where as condi damage couldn't. It wasn't until the condi rework that made closed the basic TTK, and made condi dangerous enough in PvP to make more builds around it viable. Then Especs happened, and CC became available enough to pretty much take over PvP.

[Deaths.9165]

This game is alrdy 6 years old and u guys are discussing stuff that was alrdy implemented and removed by Anet. Atm condiction is just good at it is.

 

U guys have to considre that most parts of this game are designed for random zerging and pugging. Fractal, pvp tourment, Raids can be but dont need to be organized groups.

 

Theirfore some burst in Condis is needed so they can compete with power builds. Still their is enough dot that the playstyle of condi and powerbuilds slightly changes.

 

Some bosses are vulnerable to condis others for power, and some need cc. But overall all "3" dmg types are similare to each other compared to other games. it just doesnt feel diffrent if i press a cc skill or a condi skill or a power skill. ANd this is because of the gamstyle causual zerging, pugging. it just assambles a diffrence.

 

In gw1 u could really feel the diffrence between the diffrent dmg types. U have to hit the boss with a dot cause he healed himself and at same time, u had to use power dmg to inflict dmg. at the same time u had to use cc (interupts) And at the same time u had to use aoe for the minions. But thouse mechanics are for the casual gw2 way to high.

 

The hardest boss i encountered until now in my nearly 6 years is the three headed worm of sparkly. U have to coordinate 120 ppl on 3 squads to kill him. And the hard part is not to coordinate him (thats hard as well ) the hard part is to find an empty map to pull all 120 players in. With thouse map mechanics it is no wonder that the dmg types of gw2 feel same.

 

If u go out for pof bountys u zerg and when u wait for dot u wont get any tag dmg (first 2-3 years it was like that) their for burst in condis is needed so u can get any tag dmg. It is the gamemechanics that force this simplicitie.

 

if u go out into open world of gw2, healing protection and true dot and cc doesnt provide enough tag dmg and credit theirfore u need burst on them.

 

Thats a reason why scourge is so op in wvw it provides healing and dot and burst to get full loot from foes. On the other hand bubble warriore is entirley useless for the player cause it doesnt provide nearly any loot. Even when it is a very powerfull source for the squad.

 

And the good old loot stick worked on the same game mechanics pre nerf. Enough tag dmg for credit with protection and heal ability for the squad.

 

At matriach of Verdant brink cc was essential but not many ppl brought cc with them cause it doesnt provide enough tag dmg for credit. And why should i cc for the zerg so they could get the loot and i look dumfounded.

 

Same was with cahk gerents at thouse times.

 

So before we discuss about cons dot power cc. We have to discuss credit mechanics. Cause with thouse credit mechanics nothing will change.

[otto.5684]

In PvE, Open world, In my opinion, if a condi build cannot kill veteran mobs at a very close rate to a power build it is not open world PvE viable. After the patch majority cannot so.. Fractals, kinda the same. Raids, if we exclude FB and mirage, berserker still has a place. Renegade maybe. Scourge okaish. But power builds seem to be much more effective overall. Overall, most condi builds suck in PvE.

 

For PvP. Mirage is over performing. Scourge, but has little to do with the condi damage and more to do with boon corruption. I have heard of the condi thief legend. I do not remember when I last see it work. I have heard that condi ranger is good roamer in wvw. Other than that, condi builds should not even be attempted. Basically, the 2 over performing builds before the Dec 2017 patch are still over performing while everything else sucks.

 

I think the condi changes are the worst game wise balance change, anet ever done. By a large margin too.

[Poseidon.3852]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> > @"Poseidon.3852" said:

> > In my opinion, Conditions should be more like what other MMORPGs have... them being "DoTs". In other words, Damage over Time. Not bursty at all, EVER. They should put pressure on the target, slowly downing its hp, while other abilities of the one doing the DoTs should revolve around survivability while the enemies health is being depleted and/or some power damage.

> >

> > Conditions being bursty with no immunity post-cleanse, and relatively easy ways to apply it is just bad design in PvP. As for PvE, full stacks should desirable, but only be possible to achieve with at least 2 people applying the DoT, and they should support the overall dmg with power moves. DoTs (condition dmg) should either be a slow burn while the "DoTter" tries to survive until its enemy is dead or a support to medium power damage, where it is medium because the player chose to do a trade-off for survivability.

> >

> > I do understand that this is more "classical" than what GW2 tries to be as an MMORPG, but in my opinion, it is a much better solution to having DoTs (conditions) in a game than what GW2 chose to do. Just because GW2 tries to be different and you have to approach it as such, doesn't mean that everything is remotely good in whichever way you try to look at it.

>

> Except that doesn't work in game where the PvP is high paced and has a low lethal damage threshold, and nearly every class has the ability to purge them once they reach threatening DPS levels. Other MMOs also favor group comps that demand dedicated healers by design. Prior to the change in how condi were stacked/balanced, very very few condi damage skills were threatening, and relied on the target having no way to purge them. Pressure damage is kind of worthless when all classes were designed, in core, to be able to heal and reset against in the same time frame for that damage to be dangerous. Also consider power damage multiples better, and the way our stats are managed forces a choice between one or the other. Even today, most hybrid builds still lag behind in damage then either focused condi or focused power, and the coefficient scaling plays a big part in that.

>

> You're also working the assumption that group comp is normal...... With Open World solo being by far the most popular, that assumption can't be made. Theres also the matter of how our gear and stat investment works, already causing most players multiple gear sets for characters which run multiple builds. Making DOT a group component effectively shuts those builds out entirely from open world, where most players run solo or adhoc the majority of the time.

>

> Fact of the matter is, damage is king with how so many of these games are designed. The faster you eliminate an enemy, the less threat they pose. Since they're performance is 100% up until they are downed or disabled, the most efficient path to either of those are what players are going to seek out. When you boil it down, condi and power are just sources of damage. Whats being underutilized in nearly all areas of PvE (and in most of PvP) is how Mob/Player durability is handled; and that component is what would make a huge distinction between the 2. They had designed for this from the beginning- but I can pin a lot of current evolution on very early changes to make mobs more typical to other MMOs, in response to player feed back about early AI being being too squirrely, and some mobs being too hard to fight. This solidified the damage sponge model, to which power damage could scale easily, where as condi damage couldn't. It wasn't until the condi rework that made closed the basic TTK, and made condi dangerous enough in PvP to make more builds around it viable. Then Especs happened, and CC became available enough to pretty much take over PvP.

 

Thanks! You are right! I pondered a lot about what I've said and my stance towards it and your comment kind of solidified my conclusion... I am just too nostalgic about "the good ol' days" of resource management and group coordination in MMORPGs. I quit WoW when competitive PvP became all about burst damage and not about resource management and trying to trick the other party in wasting their CDs and CCs and so on, and now I am crying about GW2 being literally built from the ground up about burst and dodge. It was my fault all along and besides some balancing issues, it's more or less okay-ish.

 

Shame that they did those "nerfs" to open-world enemies. Apart from HoT, they are all too easy. Lastly, I would at least love a change to healing and health... I would love to see much bigger health pools in PvP with the current damage output, but less potent heals for bunker builds... so that fights could last longer and be more tactical in the long run, but to prevent bunkering too. OR JUST ADD MORE PVP MODES FOR KITTENS SAKE ANET, IT'S BEEN SIX YEARS AND IT'S JUST GAME MODES.... AND INCREASE THE POINT AREA.