Inconsistencies with abilities

[Melanie.3082]

There are some abilities that will not allow you to use it when your current target is null, while some will fire regardless if you have a target or not. Why is that? An example is Scourge Torch 5, if your current target is null, or the target is behind you, you won't be able to use that ability, it'll give you a warning text saying no target or something like that.

 

Is there a way to set all abilities in this way(That act in a similar manner, as in won't do anything if you don't have a target), because it's much nicer this way. Why is it that some abilities will cast even when your target is null, such as Feast of Corruption(Necro scepter number 3 skill)

 

Also, i'm not sure if this was the right place to post this, if not, sorry!

[Sojourner.4621]

Some skills are AoEs with you at its center, and should always cast when you use them. That is because there IS no target, you are the target, so the target should always be valid. There are other abilities as well that give the player benefits... such as Necro Warhorn 5 which gives you a swiftness boost when used, and many necromancers run specifically for that boost. I agree that FoC should invalidate when there is no target, but most skills that do have a specific enemy rather than being an AoE do work this way, and don't allow a cast.

[Melanie.3082]

Feast reads: Strike your **target**, gain life force, and torment your foe. For each condition on your target up to the condition threshold, get additional life force gain and inflict additional torment stacks.

 

I don't see it being an AoE or anything in the text and Oppressive Collapse is an AoE that still requires a target

 

I don't mean all abilities to require a target, some make sense to be able to use without a target. I am speaking about abilities like this that require a target to work, otherwise using them does nothing at all.

 

Sometimes when I am out in the open world and I use Plague Signet for when things have damage over time effects, I try to send it to something and sometimes it'll die before I press the button, causing me to use the ability with a null target. I'd like to not waste my ability if something like that happens so I can send the damage over time effects to a target

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Melanie.3082" said:

> Feast reads: Strike your **target**, gain life force, and torment your foe. For each condition on your target up to the condition threshold, get additional life force gain and inflict additional torment stacks.

>

> I don't see it being an AoE or anything in the text and Oppressive Collapse is an AoE that still requires a target

>

> I don't mean all abilities to require a target, some make sense to be able to use without a target. I am speaking about abilities like this that require a target to work, otherwise using them does nothing at all.

>

> Sometimes when I am out in the open world and I use Plague Signet for when things have damage over time effects, I try to send it to something and sometimes it'll die before I press the button, causing me to use the ability with a null target. I'd like to not waste my ability if something like that happens so I can send the damage over time effects to a target

 

Yeah I edited to correct because I realized that it was the original GW1 Feast of Corruption that was a PBAoE not the GW2 one. Anyway yes a few skills do behave inconsistently but not really often enough for me to notice. Might be worth looking in to, though? I think Necromancer is one of the worst offenders here, but then again Necro is... a consistently mismanaged class to begin with.

[Melanie.3082]

I think it'd combat much better since things like that can't happen. it also can't be hard to do since they literally already do it for some abilities, so checking that logic in their code shouldn't require much work? It happens enough to where it is noticeable for me and missing abilities like that isn't fun

 

Things like desert shroud and so on are fine to use without a target since they have an effect that will work no matter what, but like I said before, Plague Signet and so on do nothing with a null target, so it shouldn't work if your target is null

[rng.1024]

As fair as I know, the target requirement applies only to weapon skills with a projectile like application. With this comes a few restrictions. Most weapon skills are designed to hit within an arc in front of the player, which means your character won't automatically about face and the skill ends up going on an interrupt cooldown if you try hitting someone behind you. The game needs input from somewhere to tell it where to place it's AoE, whether it is ground targeted or point blank. Most likely these skills were originally designed around the stealth mechanic, not allowing you to place it on yourself at will. Also notice that these attacks will apply their function EVEN if the attack is evaded - which mean it's an over time effect that already make it very strong, like the mesmer gs. Also that it seems to be warhorn/foci and such weapons mostly who have these, so the reason we still get these skills is exactly because anet wants to be consistent.

 

I agree though, the era of skills requiring targets have passed. My bet is, since most are homing projectile- like attacks, that this is due to technical limitations more than anything else. At the same time, the only benefit I can see from this is you can't use it without a target - which is only possible with thief and now mesmer, so it was probably indeed meant as a counter mechanic at some point. Look at the thief signet f.ex - if you don't have a target it don't know where to go because it's a teleport, not a leap. This gives it both advantages and drawbacks, which used to be how most skills were designed. Same with rev sword 5 - you'd rather hit a random enemy on your screen who may or may not be within range evoking a full cooldown, even when misclick?

[Melanie.3082]

Scourge 5 checks your line of sight, if you are in range, if you have a target all before using an ability. Why can't all abilities that require a target do that? If you use that ability you are saying for a rev 5, it won't matter if it does all that checking as scourge 5 does.

 

Leaps and all that you are saying don't require a target to do something. I am just speaking about abilities that **Need** a target to do something, otherwise nothing at all happens. Plague signet and feast of corruption do nothing at all without a target, so why can't they get the same treatment as scourge 5 has, making it better for over all combat? I'm sure there are many more abilities like this

[rng.1024]

> @"Melanie.3082" said:

> Scourge 5 checks your line of sight, if you are in range, if you have a target all before using an ability. Why can't all abilities that require a target do that? If you use that ability you are saying for a rev 5, it won't matter if it does all that checking as scourge 5 does.

>

> Leaps and all that you are saying don't require a target to do something. I am just speaking about abilities that **Need** a target to do something, otherwise nothing at all happens. Plague signet and feast of corruption do nothing at all without a target, so why can't they get the same treatment as scourge 5 has, making it better for over all combat? I'm sure there are many more abilities like this

 

First off, we need to separate between weapon skills and utility skills, as only the former is denied cast unless you have a target.

 

What I meant with the difference between teleports and leaps, is that when leaping the game simply assumes you are going the way your character is facing. You can't leap backwards. This is where teleports come in, and they make no assumptions so you need to specify where you want to go.

 

The reason utility skills are allowed to cast without a target, is because players are on an equal footing, free to choose which skills to run and during a fight these are your bag of tricks. Mess one up and you are at a disadvantage, only fair.

 

When it comes to weapons on the other hand, all of a sudden alot of classes have access to things others don't (f.ex finishers, combo fields, cc and other effects). Take ranger's warhorn 4 for example:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Call

 

Let's assume it will fire without a target. What do you want it to do then? Because looking at the skill right now that's a pure waste of a cooldown. It's not comparable to utility skills, as most of them (signets) have secondary effects, or allow you to choose where to put them.

 

As far as I know, the only skills in this game that require a target "summons" an effect (or the player) on the target of the caster. In that way it acts like a teleport, else you would always summon it straight ahead. And therefore it should follow the same rules of line of sight and range. But since this skill is 20% of your arsenal, the game doesn't allow you to waste it simple as that. Weapon skills adhere to different rules than utility skills, and anet designed them this way for a reason.

 

As I said previously, it is my belief they did so to allow for counter play and not punish you too hard if you somehow managed to cast it without a target. Also because it acts like a teleport, so it can be cast from any angle and still "hit", which tbh already is quite overpowered for a weapon skill, of which we have a limited selection of in the first place.

[Klowdy.3126]

One of the worst skills for this is renegade short bow 4. Half of the time, I'm not even sure when the ring goes red, I'm just slightly facing away from it.

[Melanie.3082]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> > @"Melanie.3082" said:

> > Scourge 5 checks your line of sight, if you are in range, if you have a target all before using an ability. Why can't all abilities that require a target do that? If you use that ability you are saying for a rev 5, it won't matter if it does all that checking as scourge 5 does.

> >

> > Leaps and all that you are saying don't require a target to do something. I am just speaking about abilities that **Need** a target to do something, otherwise nothing at all happens. Plague signet and feast of corruption do nothing at all without a target, so why can't they get the same treatment as scourge 5 has, making it better for over all combat? I'm sure there are many more abilities like this

>

> First off, we need to separate between weapon skills and utility skills, as only the former is denied cast unless you have a target.

>

> What I meant with the difference between teleports and leaps, is that when leaping the game simply assumes you are going the way your character is facing. You can't leap backwards. This is where teleports come in, and they make no assumptions so you need to specify where you want to go.

>

> The reason utility skills are allowed to cast without a target, is because players are on an equal footing, free to choose which skills to run and during a fight these are your bag of tricks. Mess one up and you are at a disadvantage, only fair.

>

> When it comes to weapons on the other hand, all of a sudden alot of classes have access to things others don't (f.ex finishers, combo fields, cc and other effects). Take ranger's warhorn 4 for example:

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Call

>

> Let's assume it will fire without a target. What do you want it to do then? Because looking at the skill right now that's a pure waste of a cooldown. It's not comparable to utility skills, as most of them (signets) have secondary effects, or allow you to choose where to put them.

>

> As far as I know, the only skills in this game that require a target "summons" an effect (or the player) on the target of the caster. In that way it acts like a teleport, else you would always summon it straight ahead. And therefore it should follow the same rules of line of sight and range. But since this skill is 20% of your arsenal, the game doesn't allow you to waste it simple as that. Weapon skills adhere to different rules than utility skills, and anet designed them this way for a reason.

>

> As I said previously, it is my belief they did so to allow for counter play and not punish you too hard if you somehow managed to cast it without a target. Also because it acts like a teleport, so it can be cast from any angle and still "hit", which tbh already is quite overpowered for a weapon skill, of which we have a limited selection of in the first place.

 

What? I program, an ability is an ability, doesn't matter if it's a weapon skill or utility skill. How is it fair play if I press an ability on a target that is alive and it gets bursted and dies before my ability press registers and misses?

 

I explained above what I want it to do. If an ability like feast of corruption doesn't have a target, then it should just throw you a message saying you have no target, such as scourge 5 does

[Airdive.2613]

While your solution is one way to fix things (though would require some tweaking), I can offer another opinion.

What you probably fail to realize is there are times you actually want to start casting before you have a target: namely, when your enemy is stealthed and you're absolutely sure about your timing. You can start casting before your target appears, and when it appears, it is punished instantly.

 

I would like to see your change implemented, but only if it is consistent across every skill in the game and if affected skills get slight buffs to compensate for stealth counterplay.

(Or this behaviour could be made optional. One can only dream.)

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Most thief pistol and dagger abilities come to mind.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> Most thief pistol and dagger abilities come to mind.

 

I'm sure all of them actually strike. It makes sense for them to behave this way. Also, it's not crucial for thief's weapons because the same skill can be chained.

What OP is talking about is skills which would do nothing at all without a target, like guardian's scepter 3. Or indeed thief's steal: right now it can go on full cooldown without doing anything despite being a targeted instant cast skill.

 

(edited for pointing out a possible indirect buff to thief)

[Melanie.3082]

I just want it so when I don't have a target, my ability doesn't go to waste. It already does it for scourge torch 5, it's really nice and would like for other abilities that behave the same to get the same checking before casting.

 

I'm sure others would like it also, just like the above poster saying how steal goes on cooldown and can be used when you have a target, doing nothing at all and wasting the ability

[Fluffypuppy.8265]

I think the way torch 5 works on necro is something that Anet started doing more recently so that you don't waste skills, but since feast is an older skill it doesn't have the new checks to prevent you from wasting the skill. I don't know how hard it would be to update skills like this, but it would be nice. Plague signet still stun breaks you even if you have nothing targeted, which is really nice especially in pvp situations, especially if you get jumped by an enemy from stealth.

 

Also, since someone mentioned thief's steal, it is intentional to be able to use it with no target lock so you can still get the benefits (primarily swiftness which you can give to allies) at will. If I remember correctly, sometime in the last year or two Anet made it so you could only use steal if you had a target in range and the feedback was very negative so they reverted it to what we have now.

[Undo.5091]

Yeah, steal was changed to match what the OP wanted, but it was reverted because it had been frequently used to apply boons in sPvP to allies at that time.

 

I’d much rather do the opposite of what the OP suggests here. If I use a skill, I expect it to go off, regardless if I have a valid target or not. I can’t think of too many skills that would be heavily affected by this, but it would be nice to keep this consistent among skills.

 

@"Melanie.3082" You’re right about Feast of Corruption. I can’t think of any reason as to why it would cast without a target while the torch skill requires one, but requiring a target for plague signet would make the skill incredibly clunky for two reasons. One being that it’s a stunbreak, and the other being that sometimes you need to cast the skill to prevent yourself from pulling conditions from allies.