GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Dondarrion.2748" said:

> > @"smitske.4912" said:

> > On the other hand, I dont think we should rejoice for people losing their jobs and livelihoods even though some mightve been justified.

>

> Yes, despicable behaviour from this so-called outstanding gw2 community. There's a lot of individuals out there who need to take a good look at themselves in the mirror, raising pitchforks and claiming toxicity is unacceptable behaviour and at the next crossroads they're the ones bad-mouthing stuff...

>

> Today is a very sad day for Anet and I think I've reached a crossroads with GW2, I'll take summer to consider but while some cherish this and stay with the game, this might be where I take my leave; for JP/PF to lose their jobs over this is beyond belief when there's other disciplinary actions and this being spurred on by a kitten social media drama...

 

So I am not for anyone losing their jobs. However for whoever work in IT, it's usually stated in their contract that they shouldn't give bad press to their company, which is what happened here. As much as it sucks, a breach of contract is a breach of contract. Anet didn't overreact at all.

 

It is a sad day for sure, but I don't think leaving the game would do any good for the remaining employees, who got involved by proxy and are also victims of all this stress.

[Maxajax.6350]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

I'm not going to post anything celebratory in a discussion about people getting fired, but as someone that works in retail, I am glad to see that standards are being upheld with regards to upholding company standards. It is regrettable that she and peter put you in this position because the issue quickly became so divisive that you were going to end up with a backlash regardless of whether you chose to retain them or let them go.

 

There was nothing intentionally demeaning or hurtful about Deroir's post. He simply stated that the problem Jessica Price was talking about is not due to the MMORPG genre but the constraints of the living story's narrative design. That was just a neutral factual statement. It applies to real life as well. Every choice you make determines what you do. Schooling is the best example. When the generalist part of an education has been completed, a person chooses whether to join the workforce or go for some form of higher study. If you choose to study, the options you have once said education is completed will differ radically depending on whether you studied something like physics or English. You wouldn't hire an English graduate to do a phycisist's job or vice versa. A person's life is marked by choices which define the course of their career. Thus choosing door closes multiple other doors, and changes which doors will be open to you in the future. The same holds true for the protagonist of the Guild Wars 2 story, except their choices are further restricted by the fact that they are a good person who fights giant monsters and bad people to keep others safe. It is further compounded by the fact that GW2 is an online game shared between multiple players, meaning that throughout all those playthroughs, the protagonist has to make the same choices when it comes to the over-arching big picture of the narrative thread. Sure, you can choose whether to join the Vigil, Durmand Priory or Whispers, but if a player chooses not to kill Zhaitan or side with Scarlet Briar, Balthazar or Joko, that would irrevocably lead to the character that drives the story forward becoming the antagonist. It would unravel the entire narrative. There are games out there such as Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas that give people the option to do whatever they want as the main character, but those are single player games and that is the only reason why they have the option to do so. It is those restrictions which funnel GW2 down the path it has determined from the onset to take. There is nothing inherently bad about that. The tone of the GW1 narrative was not so different. Imagine how cluttered and confused the story would get if people had the option to support Abbadon.

 

That's why Deroir said what he said about the restrictive nature of the narrative. Not because he was trying to be mean to Jessica Price. Jessica Price, on the other hand, made a conscious decision as a member of the GW2 staff to behave in an immature, impolite and irresponsible manner based on her own poor judgment. Peter Fries got himself caught in the debacle. I can only hope that she will learn the error of her ways and decide not to be mean to people at her next job. Arenanet has my respect with regards to their decision and rapid response.

[Kultakorppi.4769]

I feel wrong about ever supporting arenanet after this. The fact that you would effectively ruin 2 developer's careers to sate the demands of this toxic, screaming mob of a 'community' is shameful.

 

This is why game developers need to unionize.

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Kultakorppi.4769" said:

> I feel wrong about ever supporting arenanet after this. The fact that you would effectively ruin 2 developer's careers to sate the demands of this toxic, screaming mob of a 'community' is shameful.

>

> This is why game developers need to unionize.

 

This community is far from toxic. If you want a toxic community just go play your ARTS (commonly referred to as MOBA) game of choice, that will show you what a toxic community truly is. Also, are you not part of this "screaming mob" since you are part of the community? Lastly, thanks for the generalization, does a lot of good painting everyone the same color when clearly the toxic people are a fringe case.

[Draco.9480]

wow, anet surprised me. thank you for fixing the issue for us.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Kultakorppi.4769" said:

> I feel wrong about ever supporting arenanet after this. The fact that you would effectively ruin 2 developer's careers to sate the demands of this toxic, screaming mob of a 'community' is shameful.

>

> This is why game developers need to unionize.

 

Unionizing will not protect you from the consequences of acting unprofessionally and going against policy while repping your job.

[Draco.9480]

> @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said:

> This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes.

 

most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward.

[Belorn.2659]

What has been the most surprising in the last few days is the number of people who find celebrate a cancer victims death acceptable, and I can't imagine what kind of thinking could ever justify it. Maybe some people have been lucky enough to be spared seeing a loved one slowly die in a hospital bed through even so the lack of empathy required to celebrate a death is beyond me.

 

Death is not peaceful. Seeing someone go from alive and healthy to suddenly be in constant pain and unable to walk is painful, and from here it only get worse. Pain medicine only do so much and after a point the pain is just constant every hour, every minute, every second. On a good day they may be awake a few hours and talk almost like it was a normal day, and then following that you have days where they don't even recognize you and are frozen in a face of agony. Open mouth but with a silent scream and a horrible slow breathing. You stay in the hospital for hours or days and doctors can't do anything while you watch the person hopelessly as they fade away in constant pain.

 

Celebrating that a 32 year old human person has to go through that is not just harsh, its uncivil. Arguing that they have the opposing political view or did not control their follows does not even get close to justify celebrating the death of a cancer victim. If you hear or see someone defending this behavior please, make them stop. That is no way to behave online or offline for that matter. There is limits to what political polarization may result in and this is one of those.

[thruine.8510]

> @"Kultakorppi.4769" said:

> I feel wrong about ever supporting arenanet after this. The fact that you would effectively ruin 2 developer's careers to sate the demands of this toxic, screaming mob of a 'community' is shameful.

>

> This is why game developers need to unionize.

 

I have to say I'm a bit surprised this isn't already the case especially in this case where whether you agree with Price's actions or not. She insinuated that this is something common that female developers have to deal with and Fries sort of back this up stating he doesn't have the same amount of... help, I'd guess you could call it. So, why does ArenaNet operate without taking this into account. Are female developers at ArenaNet allowed to have their capabilities questioned by any and everyone with no help from company resources? I could imagine if I received the same discounting of my ability at my job I might lose it if the company I work for just leaves me out to dry. I know of plenty of companies who do not allow any employee to be subject to abuse from its customers regardless of gender. Now I'm not saying she didn't bring some of this on herself. That's apparent with some of those later responses (I found them funny myself). We'd probably see the same result had this been a guy but would it have spun so fast out of control if it had been? Do the women that work at ArenaNet get informed that they will be especially at the mercy of customers and ArenaNet will offer no support or help in dealing with it? So don't screw up adding even another extra layer making the job more difficult. Just pondering.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > This whole situation just makes me think of this song:

> I was going with:

>

>

>

 

Yeah that's not bad either, just... I prefer to stress that there is a better way, than to get into the depressing "Humans be humans" narrative. (Plus my musical knowledge doesn't reach that far beyond pop-songs sadly. xD)

 

It seems to me that holding on to an altercation, misunderstanding or miscommunication and not being able to let it go has led to such a waste of creative potential. Something which in my opinion can be easily avoided, by taking a step back, counting to ten and let it go.

[Arzurag.7506]

Social media shouldn´t have such an impact.

It´s disgusting how it can give a voice to those that better keep their mouth shut, in addition to creating way too much drama, by involving a lot of ppl that are not even affected personally.

 

The new Bread and circuses I guess

[mobius.2196]

Rejoicing in the death of another is despicable behaviour and totally unacceptable. Even more so in a public forum. Dismissal was the only acceptable answer to this. Well done ArenaNet. I do feel a bit sorry for her beta boy getting sucked into this and suffering the same fate.

[Draco.9480]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > > What exactly are you referring to?

> > > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional.

> > >

> > > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted.

> >

> > The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same.

>

> Then he's a jerk. But that he did it to a woman does matter. Men still have more physical, economic, and social power over women. His interactions with her contain a different power dynamic than his interactions with other men.

 

1. physical abilities has nothing to do with equality or respect and it's the internet which doesn't factor anything.

2. men have more economic and social power? where did you get that from? men usually work more hours and work in more dangerous jobs than women. stop spreading misinformation.

3. deroir isn't a jerk. he wanted to express his preferences and she gave him excuse and he told her she's mad. big deal. then she threw him the gender card out of nowhere.

[Dried Donkey.8504]

> @"franzi.8513" said:

> I feel very sad that both of them were fired ... and it makes me really angry that so many people who were not even insulted by Jessica or Peter wanted them to get fired. Losing your job can cause severe depression and it raises the risk of suicide. Is it really worth to take that risk, just because of a Twitter discussion? Maybe her reaction was unacceptable, but I can understand her somehow. During my schooltime I was bullied a lot and after many years of bullying I started to overreact all the time. People always thought I had a bad character, but actually I was just stressed and couldn't take any more critique. Maybe Jessica Price felt stressed about all the critique and mean comments, too. Maybe she has burnout, maybe everything was too much for her. I think someone from Anet should have offered her help instead of firing her. But the only person who supported her, was fired, too - a dad who worked for Anet for 13 years. I don't like this decision at all. I don't think it's fair. Jessica and Peter both worked hard to make this game for us, too. The whole incident makes me so sad that I could cry ... I really don't understand how others can cheer that two people lost their job. I really hope that you never make mistakes in your life.

 

while losing your lively hood is never good i agree, and the guy who got fired i do feel sorry for even though he took a sort of tribalism stance when it occured which is not okay in my opinion

 

being stressed out is no excuse to lash out on people in the community your job makes a product for that's biting the hand that feed you and besides it's been shown over and over again that she was not a very nice person

 

she doesn't care about anyone here, to her we are just "rando A holes"

 

and what discussion? it got to this point because of her inability to have one, instead she lashed out and played the gender card, which i found totally weird because she started the whole topic and went in depth as if she wanted to start a discussion with the community(which is a shame because i thought she had some really interesting points).

 

and i'm sorry but if you're a creative in any field putting your work forward for the public to see then they can and will critique it if you want it or not and yes it's a hard pill to swallow sometimes especially when you worked hard on something, and also she sure as hell didn't pull any punches when she "critiqued" other people's work.

i got the impression that because she could say she was a professional in her field she felt she was above and beyond those who she felt wasn't on her level but the truth is professional is just a job title when it comes to these things, you shouldn't disregard a person's feed back because you see them as an amateur or if they don't work with you because an outside perspective can help

 

[Celeras.4980]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

Thank you for standing up for your customers and your fans. This kind of toxic behavior gets swept under the rug all too often, and your actions make me proud to continue to support ArenaNet going forward.

 

Cheers~

[Dami.5046]

What Anet do as a company and how they act on violation of their rules is no ones business but Anet's.

 

[Lucinellia.9247]

I don't think JP acted appropriately. I think her reaction was overblown and completely unnecessary and I feel PF was perhaps a little unprofessional. I am unsure if any of that merited them being fired. I firmly believe PF shouldn't have been.

 

However, I am left with a feeling that I no longer know the community I thought I was part of and loved. From cries of misandry and reverse-sexism over someone being mean in what should have remained a minor Twitter spat, to the thirst for drama and to the use of outright misogyny and attacks on minorities in numerous Reddit threads and the brigading of people with clear agendas into Twitter and Reddit posts, this is no longer the community I thought so well of.

 

We were supposed to be the better MMO community, the kinder one that would be reasonable and argue our points without hatred returned. We could have made all of the points and raised these issues while taking the higher ground. As a community we didn't and I worry this is going to have a chilling effect on Arenanet internally, stymie future communication and decrease the pace of releases as these posts now need to be filled and, honestly, would you want to work for a company where you are immediately fired for (rightly or wrongly) trying to defend a colleague? Would you feel secure in your job knowing that mobbing someone you tried to stand up for gets results like this?

 

There are no winners here and it is a terrible and sad situation.

[thruine.8510]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

>

> It seems to me that holding on to an altercation, misunderstanding or miscommunication and not being able to let it go has led to such a waste of creative potential. Something which in my opinion can be easily avoided, by taking a step back, counting to ten and let it go.

 

This reminds me:

 

Let it go, let it go

Can't hold it back anymore

Let it go, let it go

Turn away and slam the door

I don't care what they're going to say

Let the storm rage on

The cold never bothered me anyway

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

People getting fired over something they wrote on twitter. lul

It's like we're all 13 y.o. again!

 

[Bigsexy.8302]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

What about the guy who tried to ruin and forbid guilds to gvg in WvW few years ago? Wasn't that also attack on the community? He was never fired.

Double standards much :)?

[Koen.1327]

> @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said:

> > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes.

> > >

> > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward.

> >

> > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females

> > females get told how to do their job better all the time

>

> Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself.

 

how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all.

 

i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem).

[LetoII.3782]

 

> @"Kolzi.5928" said:

 

> The hooting masses win again. Clearly her actions were inappropriate but was it worth destroying the livelihoods of two people? Don't worry MO, I don't blame you, I blame the cretins who were swarming all over this calling for it.

 

Do you work?

Call up one of your employer's clients and give 'em a good piece of your mind..... Record and broadcast on a public venue.

 

 

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > This whole situation just makes me think of this song:

> > I was going with:

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yeah that's not bad either, just... I prefer to stress that there is a better way, than to get into the depressing "Humans be humans" narrative. (Plus my musical knowledge doesn't reach that far beyond pop-songs sadly. xD)

>

> It seems to me that holding on to an altercation, misunderstanding or miscommunication and not being able to let it go has led to such a waste of creative potential. Something which in my opinion can be easily avoided, by taking a step back, counting to ten and let it go.

I see that. A handful of people could've nipped this in the bud by being reasonable, absolutely.

 

I was holding up the song I picked to the greater scope of this mess though, where I'm seeing people defending the celebration of someone's death, people going in circles endlessly repeating the same arguments about gender politics, only listening to each other to cherry pick trigger words, and more general nonsense than I can shake a stick at.

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said:

> > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes.

> > > >

> > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward.

> > >

> > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females

> > > females get told how to do their job better all the time

> >

> > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself.

>

> how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all.

>

> i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem).

 

Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games").

 

Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white).

[Ash.5274]

> @"Kultakorppi.4769" said:

> I feel wrong about ever supporting arenanet after this. The fact that you would effectively ruin 2 developer's careers to sate the demands of this toxic, screaming mob of a 'community' is shameful.

>

> This is why game developers need to unionize.

 

If the careers of two developers have indeed been 'effectively ruined' by this situation, two people and two people alone are responsible for that: Jessica Price and Peter Fries. Their actions, their responsibility for the consequences. Yes it's an altogether ugly and unpleasant situation, and I don't imagine it was an easy decision for Mo to let them go, but it was the right thing to do and I have no problem applauding him for making that decision.

 

As for the demands of 'toxic, screaming mob', I've seen at least as many members of the GW2 community suggesting a more lenient response, and genuinely saddened that it has come to this, but I honestly don't see that Mo had any other choice.