Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore You have no proof for any "discrimination" merely based on gender. There is no structure in place that says "no, women cannot do this job", but what you are doing is taking away their freedom of choice by removing their agency to make decisions for themselves. You imply their choice is always taken away from them. But I will give you this: It is true that there are still many times more men in high positions. You know why? Because in the past it was actually true. The countless men in power right now are the result of the many previous generations where women were married and stayed at home while the men were the sole bread winners. Those times are over though. Nothing is stopping a woman from rising to the top anymore, as you can see with all the women who managed to get there so far. That is not a trend that will go down, it will only ever go up. It will however not reach a 50/50 balance because there simply aren't as many women interested in that top dog position - which you can clearly see based on the choices they tend to make. People need to accept that men and women make different choices, have different interests. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore She was celebrating the death of a cancer victim. How can you define that as her being "bullied away"? Does the gender of a person who celebrate the death of cancer victims matter? Does their politics matter? Does their race matter? What could possible justify that a person is celebrating the death of a cancer victim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twyn.7320 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore > > She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. Let us not forget a male employee was also affected here. Was he also a victim of the patriarchy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore > > She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. bullied away is the same as being held accountable in this context, as the managing team (which is all male by the way) decided what is acceptable or not. of course there is guidelines and a contract she signed, but again here is she had no choice but to obey. but like i've asked before: why did she have to accept her inferior position and just shut up? (like usual) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolzi.5928 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > > > Mo > > > > The hooting masses win again. Clearly her actions were inappropriate but was it worth destroying the livelihoods of two people? Don't worry MO, I don't blame you, I blame the cretins who were swarming all over this calling for it. > > Most ppl wanted her to get punished which doesn't mean fired. And i very much doubt (given anets history with issues the community had with other devs) that they would fire her because a part of the community demanded it. Far more likely there were internal issues with jp as well. Really? Then why did Peter Fries also get fired? You think he also by some huge coincidence was having internal issues after 12 years or whatever? Plenty of people were saying what she did was wrong and there should be something done. I'm not taking issue with those people, I was one of them. There were also however a TON of people calling for her to be fired and let's not pretend otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > > > > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > > > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > > > > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore > > > > She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. > > bullied away is the same as being held accountable in this context, as the managing team (which is all male by the way) decided what is acceptable or not. of course there is guidelines and a contract she signed, but again here is she had no choice but to obey. > but like i've asked before: why did she have to accept her inferior position and just shut up? (like usual) None of the people she blew up on (Deroir and Inks) told her to "just shut up". Let alone, the reason "why" would be the contract she signed likely outlined how to act with the community. Believe it or not companies do have policies, sometimes in the contracts themselves, that dictate how to act with your clients / consumers and breaking those can be (and often times are) grounds for termination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Trejgon.2809 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore I have no idea in which world you are living, but what you spew over here is....... not exacly a good representation of how world out there actually looks like. in greater scale males trying to "bully away" females from the indurstry while do exist, are great minority. Great most of them actually encourages girls to give it a try. as for "like in this story" like... did you even pay attention to what happened? dude slightly disagreed with her, and she have outright bursted into accusing him of sexist male telling her "the professional" how to do her job. The only person doing the bullying was in this specific scenario - JP - and it backfired on her as you can see. as for bosses shareholdrs and big money owners part - I didn't put research into that so I won't be assuming to know how it looks like (and seeing lacks of quotations on your side it seems that neither did you, so maybe you should also restrict yourself from jumping assumption horse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolzi.5928 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > > The hooting masses win again. Clearly her actions were inappropriate but was it worth destroying the livelihoods of two people? Don't worry MO, I don't blame you, I blame the cretins who were swarming all over this calling for it. > > Do you work? > Call up one of your employer's clients and give 'em a good piece of your mind..... Record and broadcast on a public venue. > > That's not an accurate analogy for what happened her. She didn't call that person up, they came to her, and while her reaction was shitty it was also done on her own time as her own person not in her role as an employee at arenanet. Clearly inappropriate, also not really grounds to fire someone. Every single person on the planet has got into a fight or a tantrum or whatever at some point and it's not a good idea for the person who you were in a fight with to be able to then go to your employer and get you fired for it for obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > > > > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > > > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > > > > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore > > > > She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. > > bullied away is the same as being held accountable in this context, as the managing team (which is all male by the way) decided what is acceptable or not. of course there is guidelines and a contract she signed, but again here is she had no choice but to obey. > but like i've asked before: why did she have to accept her inferior position and just shut up? (like usual) Would a different management team with women in it find that celebrating the death of cancer victims to be acceptable, or what is the argument here? I would imagine that it is rather universal that celebrating the death of cancer victims is uncivil and unacceptable behavior in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > > > > The hooting masses win again. Clearly her actions were inappropriate but was it worth destroying the livelihoods of two people? Don't worry MO, I don't blame you, I blame the cretins who were swarming all over this calling for it. > > > > Do you work? > > Call up one of your employer's clients and give 'em a good piece of your mind..... Record and broadcast on a public venue. > > > > > > That's not an accurate analogy for what happened her. She didn't call that person up, they came to her, and while her reaction was kitten it was also done on her own time as her own person not in her role as an employee at arenanet. Clearly inappropriate, also not really grounds to fire someone. Every single person on the planet has got into a fight or a tantrum or whatever at some point and it's not a good idea for the person who you were in a fight with to be able to then go to your employer and get you fired for it for obvious reasons. She had it posted in her bio that she worked for Arenanet and was publicly posting about her work at Arenanet on Guild Wars 2. On her own time or not she was talking about her work as an employee at Arenanet. She has (had?) followers (not all, but possibly some) strictly because she worked there. If that's not an 'official capacity' on social media then what is? Even if you disregard all of that, that is not how you talk to anyone, ever. That was extremely disrespectful to them and very childish of her to react that way over constructive criticism. If you can't take constructive criticism about your product from the people who are consuming it how do you intend on improving? There is always (and I mean ALWAYS) room for improvement, no one and nothing is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Belorn.2659" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > > > > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > > > > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > > > > > > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > > > > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > > > > > > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore > > > > > > She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. > > > > bullied away is the same as being held accountable in this context, as the managing team (which is all male by the way) decided what is acceptable or not. of course there is guidelines and a contract she signed, but again here is she had no choice but to obey. > > but like i've asked before: why did she have to accept her inferior position and just shut up? (like usual) > > Would a different management team with women in it find that celebrating the death of cancer victims to be acceptable, or what is the argument here? I would imagine that it is rather universal that celebrating the death of cancer victims is uncivil and unacceptable behavior in society. I don't think that was the main issue at hand, even though that was in extremely bad taste. Not saying she doesn't have the right to say what she wants or to be critical of TB; however, to revel in his death is something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > > > > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > > > > The hooting masses win again. Clearly her actions were inappropriate but was it worth destroying the livelihoods of two people? Don't worry MO, I don't blame you, I blame the cretins who were swarming all over this calling for it. > > > > Do you work? > > Call up one of your employer's clients and give 'em a good piece of your mind..... Record and broadcast on a public venue. > > > > > > That's not an accurate analogy for what happened her. She didn't call that person up, they came to her, and while her reaction was kitten it was also done on her own time as her own person not in her role as an employee at arenanet. Clearly inappropriate, also not really grounds to fire someone. Every single person on the planet has got into a fight or a tantrum or whatever at some point and it's not a good idea for the person who you were in a fight with to be able to then go to your employer and get you fired for it for obvious reasons. No, her Twitter account has two halves. One half is quite loudly and proudly Arenanet employee, the other is lots of incendiary opinion. In an extremely public setting. I do sympathize with Jessica, at a party on a holiday... Really should have left her phone in the car. Really, REALLY should have a personal twitter not so publicly tied to her place of employ. These people are minor celebrities, different rules apply in the public sphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuimbyDogg.1850 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Thank you arena net. You never cease to amaze me. Thank you for doing what is morally right. Not everything depends on gender. It is horribly sexist to post in an open Internet forum (sole purpose is communication and feedback between individuals world wide) and then disregard comments / attack commenters based on THEIR gender. Everyone can be an asshole, it isn't exclusive to guys. I feel a little bad for Fries but he saw the exchange and thought that Price was in the right (and also somehow thought that twitter/reddit were not public forums???) It is never good to have someone from your company directly telling other people (primarily fan base) they do not want feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeftheWicked.3076 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Tasida.4085" said: > There are many of us who will still be playing the game regardless of the witch hunts and old posts and hurt feelings etc. And speaking out against the hunts every time, until the silly hunters give up. I'm so glad I'm not a thin skinned person cos if I was i'd be crying into my pillow every night cos I get called bruh, bro, dude, boi at least 3x a day and many are guilty of using THOSE words (sexism according to forum followers) yet like other females choose to ignore it and play the game. ROFL GAME ON Most sane comment here :) Brofist B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. I don't know all those games but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > I don't know all those games but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) > > How is holding someone accountable for their actions targeting them? That makes no sense at all and just comes across as a lot of mental gymnastics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > @"Belorn.2659" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > > > > > > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > > > > > > > > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > > > > > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > > > > > > > > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore > > > > > > > > She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. > > > > > > bullied away is the same as being held accountable in this context, as the managing team (which is all male by the way) decided what is acceptable or not. of course there is guidelines and a contract she signed, but again here is she had no choice but to obey. > > > but like i've asked before: why did she have to accept her inferior position and just shut up? (like usual) > > > > Would a different management team with women in it find that celebrating the death of cancer victims to be acceptable, or what is the argument here? I would imagine that it is rather universal that celebrating the death of cancer victims is uncivil and unacceptable behavior in society. > > I don't think that was the main issue at hand, even though that was in extremely bad taste. Not saying she doesn't have the right to say what she wants or to be critical of TB; however, to revel in his death is something completely different. While most focus has been on her reaction to criticism, it should be remembered that when the former bioware developer said similar things after John Bain died, the general manager for bioware had to step in and declare that the view of that person did represent that of the company. If it wasn't the reason she got fired then it should have been. I can't imagine its something that anet want the company to be associated with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Belorn.2659" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"Belorn.2659" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > > oh yeah, and males dominate the work environment so they don't get told how to do their jobs better all the time, they are on top of the chain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is hilarious, you are saying that every male is equal on the top of chain? You are saying that in a workplace that has only male developers, nobody tells anyone else how to do their job "better"? You will be surprised but the reality is, not everyone can fit at the top of the chain. Males get told how to do their jobs "better" all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and why would a workplace have only male developers? how is this work environment not dominated by males? i'm referring to this as a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in reality males are on top of the chain, and they are fine with criticizing each other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal choice. And "male dominated" isn't a bad thing since that is a result of more men being interested in a field? Where are the female sewage workers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your assumption that this is entirely based on prejudice is poor judgment. > > > > > > > > > > > > it's never personal, it's a structured problem. > > > > > > it's not only a result of men being more interested in a field (which is due gender discrimination to begin with), but also that females are bullied away like in this story. > > > > > > > > > > > > @ the rest who think that the top of the chain, the bosses, the shareholders, the money are not dominated by males and is totally equal (even that there should be such power structure); i will not even reply to this anymore > > > > > > > > > > She isn't being bullied away, she is being held accountable for her actions. Had she handled the situation drastically different I am sure the outcome would have been quite different as well. She could have easily ignored the comment, walked away and cooled off, or even could have said why that wasn't possible (which the latter case is likely even true due to economic and time constraints). Any of those would have been infinitely better than how she chose to react. > > > > > > > > bullied away is the same as being held accountable in this context, as the managing team (which is all male by the way) decided what is acceptable or not. of course there is guidelines and a contract she signed, but again here is she had no choice but to obey. > > > > but like i've asked before: why did she have to accept her inferior position and just shut up? (like usual) > > > > > > Would a different management team with women in it find that celebrating the death of cancer victims to be acceptable, or what is the argument here? I would imagine that it is rather universal that celebrating the death of cancer victims is uncivil and unacceptable behavior in society. > > > > I don't think that was the main issue at hand, even though that was in extremely bad taste. Not saying she doesn't have the right to say what she wants or to be critical of TB; however, to revel in his death is something completely different. > > While most focus has been on her reaction to criticism, it should be remembered that when the former bioware developer said similar things after John Bain died, the general manager for bioware had to step in and declare that the view of that person did represent that of the company. > > A game developer celebrating the death of a critic is in bad taste. Celebrating after the person die young to cancer is on a level all on its on. If it wasn't the reason she got fired then it should have been. Right, I am not disagreeing, it was in extremely bad taste to revel in anyone's death regardless of the cause of death. Also, for all we know that may have also played a part in this, who knows? Only the people at Arenanet (and likely only the higher ups) truly know and all we can do is speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > > > I don't know all those games but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) > > > > > > How is holding someone accountable for their actions targeting them? That makes no sense at all and just comes across as a lot of mental gymnastics. holding her accountable are just some fancy words to blossom the fact the she's being bullied the most in this story. a bunch of internet warriors jumping her is justified why exactly? who set the standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > @"Kolzi.5928" said: > > > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > > > > > Mo > > > > > > The hooting masses win again. Clearly her actions were inappropriate but was it worth destroying the livelihoods of two people? Don't worry MO, I don't blame you, I blame the cretins who were swarming all over this calling for it. > > > > Most ppl wanted her to get punished which doesn't mean fired. And i very much doubt (given anets history with issues the community had with other devs) that they would fire her because a part of the community demanded it. Far more likely there were internal issues with jp as well. > > Really? Then why did Peter Fries also get fired? You think he also by some huge coincidence was having internal issues after 12 years or whatever? > > Plenty of people were saying what she did was wrong and there should be something done. I'm not taking issue with those people, I was one of them. There were also however a TON of people calling for her to be fired and let's not pretend otherwise. He could have stepped down on principal or he might have been on thin ice for something unrelated like leaking to much information in his replies. Or maybe he was fired for being involved But barely anybody was complaining about peter since all anger was towards jp. You could argue that jp was fired because of peer presure (a poor argument but an argument non the less) but not peter. We won't know until more info is released (that's if) but i find the claim highly unlikely. Also the fire dev crowed tends to be a loud minority during events like this so atributing anything to them is kinda silly to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawalanche.3897 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Amatyr.2564" said: > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > Mo > > Well, this is a toxic response from the company to a situation that could have been resolved in a much less traumatic way. How incredibly disappointing. How can you possibly call the measures taken "toxic"? Do you even have a correct understanding of the term? Because it just does not seem to make any sense in this context. Quite the contrary actually. The toxicity came from the ArenaNet staff member who was fired. If anything, ArenaNet has taken the correct precautions to prevent the "intoxication" of the relations between the company and the community. Had they not done this, the relations between the community and the company could have been damaged for months to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"WizardShotTheFood.3712" said: > > > I just want you to know that I have uninstalled Guild Wars 2, and your pathetic capitulation to a bunch of whiny little neckbeards is why. > > > > Heaven forbid people be held accountable for their actions. > > I sympathize with wizardshotthefood. > > It's pretty obvious the influx of "concerned" GW2 players who are parroting some form of "oh i just bought this game today but i saw this tweet and now will never play this game again!" or "i was typing in my credit card to buy 300 dollars worth of gems but now i am going to go spend my money on a more worthwhile cause like burning it in a field" are blatant trolls and is due to this incident making the rounds on right-wing gaming spheres. Anet took the hardline stance those communities wanted and in doing so has empowered them- drawing them to off-site GW2 boards/forums. Their presence is worse for this game's health than one ignorant dev who had a twitter spat. > > It would be reasonable to get out before the GG storm hits GW2 again.. I would argue that they are equally bad. This incident created a PR nightmare and those can end companies. > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > > > > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > > > > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > > > > > I don't know all those games but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) > > > > > > > > > > How is holding someone accountable for their actions targeting them? That makes no sense at all and just comes across as a lot of mental gymnastics. > > holding her accountable are just some fancy words to blossom the fact the she's being bullied the most in this story. a bunch of internet warriors jumping her is justified why exactly? who set the standards? A bunch of internet warriors jumping her? Like who? Like her following that she pointed at Deroir labeling him "sexist" for making constructive criticism? She is being held accountable for her actions, it is as simple as that. If we can't hold people accountable for their actions then what can we do anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 My wife and I were talking about this yesterday, and after hearing her viewpoint on it I now feel the most bad for all the women having to sit here and listen to the handful of people trying to paint women as incapable of receiving criticism. Probably the most egregious post I've seen on this topic so far was where someone maliciously suggested that Derior's response was equivalent to _"I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me."_ , when heard by a woman. My wife is a software engineer, and one of her biggest fears is that people will actually believe garbage like this. She wants to be respected in the workplace, and honestly deserves to. She has worked her way up in knowledge and ability to a level easily considered Senior Developer via years of education and experience, she's been a lead UX designer on a multi-million dollar platform and had to deal with stakeholders of all kinds. She's pulled all-nighters, spend entire days in meetings from morning to night, and has taken feedback and criticism from folks in all walks of life. There isn't a single person around her that could look at her and think "A man would do this better than her". In fact, after she left her last job a man DID replace her, and all the team can talk about is wishing she was back. So to her, it is horrifying to imagine that people saying things like the above poster could be viewed as representative of women, and undermine all the work and effort she has put in by trying to make her look like some kind of easily offended delicate flower. That people should someone be afraid to hire her or bring her on to a team, because for fear that she is incapable of being professional and would balk at the expectation of it, because that expectation is somehow sexist when applied to _her_. Some of the people in this thread are absolutely disgusting to me, as they walk all over the actual women stating that they can take criticism just as well as any man, and don't see a problem with someone having consequences for acting unprofessionally, regardless of their gender. None of that matters to these people, though: to them, women are just weak and pitiful and need to be protected from the evil rampant misogyny of the world. And who better to do the protecting than them? *tips fedora* JP was a professional. She worked her ass off to get where she was, but she made a poor choice (actually, several). I wish she didn't have to be fired; I wish ANet could have simply apologized, given JP the mentorship she obviously needs, and she could have been helped to one day become an amazing member of a team that doesn't reflect poorly on the company she is with. But, for whatever reasons we are not privy to, this was not the case, and that's fine. Why? Because despite all of the M'lady fedora hat wearers in here acting like she's a delicate flower that needed to be protected, she's an independent and capable human being, just like any of the rest of us, who can perform actions and take consequences for those actions. Yes, it sucks, but if she succeeded once she can succeed again. She'll be back working, and maybe better for it, in no time. Some of y'all need to get out more, and realize that most women aren't cowering under their desks from the big bad men, needing to be protected and shielded from the big scary world. God help you if you ever end up with a female manager and treat her like that; she got where she was through hard work, and will eat you for lunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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