GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Asudementio.8526]

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> >

> > > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> >

> > > Right, I am not disagreeing, it was in extremely bad taste to revel in anyone's death regardless of the cause of death. Also, for all we know that may have also played a part in this, who knows? Only the people at Arenanet (and likely only the higher ups) truly know and all we can do is speculate.

> >

> > Is her Twitter post what you would call reveling? I didn't realize people were so sensitive today. Good on you to backtrack saying that TB was able to be criticized, because his death is used as a bludgeon against anyone who dares to point out how toxic and irresponsible he was throughout large swathes of his career.

>

> Are you okay with being called a rando @sshat then?

 

Here is his originals post.

 

> @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> > > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> >

> > > Actually, I am thinking you are the one who doesn't know what tweets we are talking about. She blatantly called him a random (expletive) in a follow up post which was very clearly public for everyone to see. That is something you just don't do on a public forum to a long time community content creator (and partner) while representing your company.

> >

> > The guy who was asking if they may call me the expletive you are referring to was doing so as a quote to the post i made regarding her tweet on TB's passing.

> > Which is why i said he was responding to me about the wrong tweet.

> >

> > I know it's tough but try to keep up.

>

> Except you didn't even quote that comment, try to keep up, I know it's tough.

 

Which i did quote later.

 

So unless you are saying that i should have quoted JP's exact tweet on TB's death, which even you yourself didn't, perhaps because it's not really indicative of reveling, then i am not sure what you are missing. I can rewrite this whole exchange in simpler words for you if that would make it easier.

 

Edit: my mistake; the forum does a lot of quote compression for readability. Take 30s and scroll up in the thread, same page and everything! You'll find my point there.

[Koen.1327]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"Rawalanche.3897" said:

>

> > Had they not done this, the relations between the community and the company could have been damaged for months to come.

>

> If someone did this at McDonalds, they wouldn't get to finish the shift.

> Universities should really have at least a weekend course on the realities of capitalism and prefessional decorum. Some people seem completely unaware there's MASSIVE no-no's involved with waving the company flag.

 

should rather be a course on classism and power structure in companies

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> > >

> > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > >

> > > > Right, I am not disagreeing, it was in extremely bad taste to revel in anyone's death regardless of the cause of death. Also, for all we know that may have also played a part in this, who knows? Only the people at Arenanet (and likely only the higher ups) truly know and all we can do is speculate.

> > >

> > > Is her Twitter post what you would call reveling? I didn't realize people were so sensitive today. Good on you to backtrack saying that TB was able to be criticized, because his death is used as a bludgeon against anyone who dares to point out how toxic and irresponsible he was throughout large swathes of his career.

> >

> > Are you okay with being called a rando @sshat then?

>

> Here is his originals post.

>

> > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > > @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > >

> > > > Actually, I am thinking you are the one who doesn't know what tweets we are talking about. She blatantly called him a random (expletive) in a follow up post which was very clearly public for everyone to see. That is something you just don't do on a public forum to a long time community content creator (and partner) while representing your company.

> > >

> > > The guy who was asking if they may call me the expletive you are referring to was doing so as a quote to the post i made regarding her tweet on TB's passing.

> > > Which is why i said he was responding to me about the wrong tweet.

> > >

> > > I know it's tough but try to keep up.

> >

> > Except you didn't even quote that comment, try to keep up, I know it's tough.

>

> Which i did quote later.

>

> So unless you are saying that i should have quoted JP's exact tweet on TB's death, which even you yourself didn't, perhaps because it's not really indicative of reveling, then i am not sure what you are missing. I can rewrite this whole exchange in simpler words for you if that would make it easier.

 

The point I was making is you literally never, NEVER quoted the aforementioned comment in that chain at all yet acted like I wasn't following the conversation. Maybe you should re-read your posts before making them because you are referencing one comment while quoting a completely different unrelated one. That's not on me and it being "tough to follow".

[Delacroix.8594]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> like everyone who is cheering that she lost her job

At least we're not cheering that she lost her life, just like she did with TB.

 

[Dengar.1785]

> I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis.

 

This is false.

[Koen.1327]

> @"Delacroix.8594" said:

> > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > like everyone who is cheering that she lost her job

> At least we're not cheering that she lost her life, just like she did with TB.

>

 

i'm not apologetic for her actions

[Thalimae.3406]

> @"Zedek.8932" said:

> I am also very glad to see some people showing up a bit of common sense here to calm down things. For the **Millenials** sh..tstorms are a thing and probably something they are used to (ranting over the internet for nothing), but for **anyone born before 1995**, this should not be a thing.

 

Just a quick aside: Millennials is referring to people born roughly between the early 1980s and late 1990s - so most Millennials are born before 1995. I'm not sure if the post-millennial generation already has their fancy name... I sometimes see iGeneration thrown around but I'm not sure if that sticks, yet.

 

[Viol.3618]

In this day and age I am more than ecstatic to see a developer that is willing to stand with its community. The amount of hate thrown at gamers from the press and the devs sympathetic to their racist/sexist line of thinking has really worn me down over the last few years, and I am so happy to see a company willing to buck that trend and do what is ultimately the right thing, even if it didn't come easy.

[furoshiki.6231]

I think some people, especially people who think that Anet is overreacting, are making an awful lot of assumptions. We actually know very little about the overall situation. We don't even know for certain (unless there is new information I've not seen) that they were fired or whether they quit.

 

Even if they were fired, that may not have been Anet's initial attempt at a solution.

 

It is entirely possible that Anet had a sit down with the devs to talk about communicating appropriately with the customer-base, and the devs might have either been non-receptive and had to be let go, or the devs may have decided that they didn't want to conform to the communication policy and chose to move on.

 

There may be longstanding internal issues that involve these devs that we know nothing about, and this incident merely brought some of that into the public's eye leading to Anet taking stronger action.

 

We simply don't know.

 

All we do know is that when you run a company how your employees interact with customers matters - a lot.

 

If some employees interact with customers poorly, it has the potential to have negative implications not merely for "the company", but for all the other employees who rely on that company for their livelihood. Do all the other employees deserve to have their paychecks potentially be put at risk because of a few devs couldn't be civil to customers on social media?

[Tolmos.8395]

At this point I'm starting to feel like a lot of the folks here who are "defending" her are just trying to make women in general look bad by painting them as being incapable of functioning in a professional environment. I can't help but imagine 300 pound fat guys snickering to themselves with each post as they type the word "misogyny" and talk about how, as a woman, she is somehow incapable of living up to standards or is weak/timid and afraid of the big scary men on the internet and in the workplace. Hoping all the while that everything they type will create a stereotype that having women in the workplace will be more of a hassle than a help.

 

Again, I say: a lot of y'all need to get out more and realize the vast VAST majority of women are not cowering under their desks in fear of the big bad men of the world. They are professionals, working their butts off, and will eat you for lunch if you bring that fedora wearing m'lady protectionist BS into their workplace.

[rockshock.6378]

 

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> >

>

>** I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men,**

>

 

Doesnt that sentence imply you yourself is being sexist towards men? If anything that one sentence is more sexist than anything Deroir's has said during this or before this.

 

Some of you people defending JP and bringing out this gender card in discussions should really take a look at yourself before spouting out factless assumptions without backing them up with anything that's relevant. Using words like "mansplaining" to prove something or discuss something is just silly. Madeup word by a crowd of people who cant articulate or word things properly in arguements. And they will always fall back on the gender issue and minorities. JP didnt get fired over "sexism" or whatnot. She got fired for being rude and insulting toward a customer. Which then in turn led to a uproar from the community which is a good thing. That the community wont stand for fans being insulted by the devs on a public social media platform. In Anet's eyes it's the profit that decides, It's a business. With the threat of possible lost profit cause of this if they didnt take action matters, Much more than what gender anyone is. If that profit loss was gonna happen or not because of this is irrelevant, it's the fact of having the possibility of it happening, which is enough for a company, a multi billion dollar company to take action and remove the thing that is the cause of said threat to income. And that was JP in this case.

 

 

[Phosphorite.6192]

Extremely poor move on ANETs part. What I hate about this reddit post the most is that it makes JP seem like she's difficult to work with, when in reality everything written by colleagues of her that I've seen so far, paint her as someone who is great at her job and who deserves to be respected for it.

 

Instead ANET caters to an extremely vocal minority that seemingly purposefully creates drama to shit on a dev, just to get her fired instead of just CONSIDERING that not everybody wants to hear your fucking opinion on a topic, just bc you're invested in it! She owe no one courtesy on her own feed and the guys criticism was not called for at all.

 

This whole thing is a shit show and reeks of not-so-subtle "mansplaining is not a thing" kinda bs.

[Dengar.1785]

> Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women.

 

You mean to say that talking to women the same way you talk to men is not the correct thing to do?

 

 

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> Extremely poor move on ANETs part. What I hate about this reddit post the most is that it makes JP seem like she's difficult to work with, when in reality everything written by colleagues of her that I've seen so far, paint her as someone who is great at her job and who deserves to be respected for it.

>

> Instead ANET caters to an extremely vocal minority that seemingly purposefully creates drama to kitten on a dev, just to get her fired instead of just CONSIDERING that not everybody wants to hear your kitten opinion on a topic, just bc you're invested in it! She owe no one courtesy on her own feed and the guys criticism was not called for at all.

>

> This whole thing is a kitten show and reeks of not-so-subtle "mansplaining is not a thing" kinda bs.

 

If she didn't want to hear anyone's opinion there was a simple solution: Don't make the post in the first place, especially in a public format (ie. social media). Let alone there was nothing saying she had to respond to them in the first place, she literally could have made her post and turned Twitter off for the day.

 

Edit: Also, what kind of professional doesn't welcome constructive criticism? That's how you improve. (To answer that question, an unemployed one)

[yann.1946]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > There's a few other articles and youtube videos.

> > >

> > > I guess my concern is that when John Smith made rude comments to posters on the old forums, he just disappeared from the forums for awhile and only a few people called him out on it (I was one of them). Yet, when a women does it, people call for her head. It's really the reaction that's concerning.

> >

> > I think it might have more to do with her playing the sexist victim card inappropriately more than her being a female. From her twitter banter with jebro she even thinks the new Avenger movie is sexist. Basically everything is sexist to her and she's always hurt by it.

>

> Maybe she is hurt by it. There's a lot of sexism in the world that women have to deal with everyday. Some days it might be one big sexist thing, another a million little ones. Regardless, it takes it toll. And it's not wrong to point out sexism or to ask people to be less sexist.

 

Well it doesn't help you're cause at all. To decrease sexism it is important to see if their is malice is involved and how the things they say are perceived by others.

 

Both from the person saying something sexist and the person saying something against it. It might not how xe intended it.

[Tolmos.8395]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> This whole thing is a kitten show and reeks of not-so-subtle "mansplaining is not a thing" kinda bs.

 

I think most people absolutely understanding that "mansplaining" is a bigoted and hateful term used to silence people based only on their gender, which is why its use is becoming near universally condemned by people of all genders. There are very few folks willing to wear their hate like a badge of honor by using the term, and I think that's a good thing: it helps others identify them easily. Otherwise, seeing as its 2018, that sort of derogatory comment based on a protected class is considered simply unacceptable in general conversation.

[Belorn.2659]

> @"Asudementio.8526" said:

>

> > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

>

> > Right, I am not disagreeing, it was in extremely bad taste to revel in anyone's death regardless of the cause of death. Also, for all we know that may have also played a part in this, who knows? Only the people at Arenanet (and likely only the higher ups) truly know and all we can do is speculate.

>

> Is her Twitter post what you would call reveling? I didn't realize people were so sensitive today. Good on you to backtrack saying that TB was able to be criticized, because his death is used as a bludgeon against anyone who dares to point out how toxic and irresponsible he was throughout large swathes of his career.

 

I sincerely hope you never have to experience someone you know die slowly in a hospital bed, watching as they sit in eternal agony and pain that no medicine can reduce. Watch as they slowly deteriorate and sometime not even recognize you. Their face stuck in constant pain with open mouth that is silently screaming. Days, hours, minutes and seconds...

 

Being happy that someone died from cancer is a sign of pure lack of empathy. Trying to spin that as criticisms is nothing else than harmful to anyone who has experience a similar loss.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > @"Rawalanche.3897" said:

> >

> > > Had they not done this, the relations between the community and the company could have been damaged for months to come.

> >

> > If someone did this at McDonalds, they wouldn't get to finish the shift.

> > Universities should really have at least a weekend course on the realities of capitalism and prefessional decorum. Some people seem completely unaware there's MASSIVE no-no's involved with waving the company flag.

>

> should rather be a course on classism and power structure in companies

 

Fun Fact: McDonalds franchises have an in-house promotion system.

Every store in my local area is franchised by an elderly African-American man who started in high school piloting a register.

 

He's a riot to do karaoke with, no highborn by anyone's definition, and he didn't get there by telling customers about his bad day on the street sign out front.

[Rococo.8347]

I barely keep up with feedback to the community from Dev's etc, I tend to read analysis by the players around the time of releases but even I know 3 things about GW2:

 

Dungeons will never be revived

Armor will always be considered too resource heavy to make much of

Individualised storytelling will always be considered too resource heavy due to additional voice acting etc

 

Jessica Price ( now I have read back all of her contributions to reddit etc) had made more eloquent, interesting educational contributions about narrative that inform players than many, her essay on Twitter was like a class in writing for games, its was informed and clear, as was her AMNA comments that a lot restrictions goes into the sausage making that everyone outside doesnt know about. And yet Deroir read this essay didn't actually respond to anything in it ( which is what a conversation is) and instead said - your approach is wrong and you need to look at branching...

 

Really? if I KNOW branching is out, how in the hell didn't he? regardless of how 'polite' people think he was being, im not sure he was, he ignored everything she had written, said it was interesting then brought up a concept that has been discussed previously and community told, no.

 

Then someone - his friend? when it blew up ( and I want to point out I found her wording out of line) reported it all on reddit with edited remarks that didn't show everything that was said. It reminded me of people who write screeds on reddit for AMA's and get butt hurt when they don't get an interaction they were looking for.

 

Deroir knew branching wasn't an option, he didn't look at her well thought out essay he just wanted to tout his 'superior' thoughts on the situation, that actually ignored analysiss she had already made - look I think that Anet COULD find a way to do more armor, but if someone wrote a thorough explanation of the process, I wouldn't jump online and go' yes very interesting! however you are wrong I think, if you change your workflow like this it could be done, in fact it should be done.

 

He had the option ( regardless of if people think he was in the wrong or not) to tell the community it was all fine and to calm the kitten down once the rabid dog piling began, in fact BECAUSE he is respected and he was part of the initial conversation that's what he could have done - if Anet said don't talk about specifics there was nothing stopping him making a generic, 'I cant talk about this in detail folks but please take a breath'

 

Im old, ive seen this sort of thing in action ALOT taking the 'high road' doesn't involve just withdrawing from the situation - im disappointed in EVERYONE involved.

 

[goodgrief.1382]

it really sucks they got axed, i really liked how the writing has progressed in LS3/PoF/LS4 - core and HoT were not on my radar, and I'm sad I didn't get to experience LS3 in real time and instead had to buy it after PoF came out. but it was the right remedial action taken from the company's perspective. they should strive to find another talented writer to help them in their goals, not compromise values or belittle their players just because someone helped with the story or has been on the team for a decade.

[Rezzet.3614]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> Extremely poor move on ANETs part. What I hate about this reddit post the most is that it makes JP seem like she's difficult to work with, when in reality everything written by colleagues of her that I've seen so far, paint her as someone who is great at her job and who deserves to be respected for it.

>

> Instead ANET caters to an extremely vocal minority that seemingly purposefully creates drama to kitten on a dev, just to get her fired instead of just CONSIDERING that not everybody wants to hear your kitten opinion on a topic, just bc you're invested in it! She owe no one courtesy on her own feed and the guys criticism was not called for at all.

>

> This whole thing is a kitten show and reeks of not-so-subtle "mansplaining is not a thing" kinda bs.

 

i hate people getting fired but the way she acted was atrocious and here's the kicker , she could ve done what she threatened to do but never did since the beggining : Block People, i hated TB's content and had a bad idea of him in my mind but i wouldnt go to a public forum and put up party emojis and rejoice over his passing

 

so yeah while i hate her being fired as i loved the game's narrative so far , the fans of a video game are what make the community wich is what makes a game's experience in the end, you cant poop on them and expect them to take it .

 

it was never a sexism thing she made it up as such for some reason.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I really think ANet's lax rules with regards to employee interacting about company matters outside of ANet controlled environment is as much to blame as anyone. Most companies have rules preventing this and whole PR departments to filter info to their customers. I'm not saying they shouldn't interact with players but rather it should be done on the official forums where their posts have a chance for review before going public and player responses can be moderated. Company related posts to outside social media should be either exclusively handled by management and the PR department or in the case of dev streaming events moderated by someone in PR.

[Daxramas.1940]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> Extremely poor move on ANETs part. What I hate about this reddit post the most is that it makes JP seem like she's difficult to work with, when in reality everything written by colleagues of her that I've seen so far, paint her as someone who is great at her job and who deserves to be respected for it.

>

> Instead ANET caters to an extremely vocal minority that seemingly purposefully creates drama to kitten on a dev, just to get her fired instead of just CONSIDERING that not everybody wants to hear your kitten opinion on a topic, just bc you're invested in it! She owe no one courtesy on her own feed and the guys criticism was not called for at all.

>

> This whole thing is a kitten show and reeks of not-so-subtle "mansplaining is not a thing" kinda bs.

 

No one but Anet knows what exactly transpired in the aftermath of this drama. To say that Anet is just catering is a mighty big assumption.

The reality is that an Anet employee decided it was a good idea to attack (important, long-standing) community members with accusations of sexism, and proceed to say "This is my feed, I don't have to pretend to like you here".

Another employee decided it was a good idea to back up their coworkers words which to the public eye creates the image that Anet condones this sort of behaviour and message.

 

It's always unfortunate to have people lose their employment, but we have no idea if there were firings that took place or if there was a failure to negotiate agreements.

The people exclaiming genuine excitement to their unemployment and behaving in a toxic manner is an extremely small minority in the wake of this drama and I'd be willing to argue that they may even not be legitimate members and instead jumping in on the latest controversy from the internet.

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> If she didn't want to hear anyone's opinion there was a simple solution: Don't make the post in the first place, especially in a public format (ie. social media). Let alone there was nothing saying she had to respond to them in the first place, she literally could have made her post and turned Twitter off for the day.

>

> Edit: Also, what kind of professional doesn't welcome constructive criticism? That's how you improve. (To answer that question, an unemployed one)

 

Just because it's on a public platform doesn't mean everybody has to chime in with their opinions. Or do they do that as well when they overhear a conversation in a public space?

 

Why should she have to "take the high road" and suck it up? It's her personal feed, she decides what goes and what doesn't, period.

 

Also, friendly reminder: The people who get to decide what's misogynist are the people affected by it i.e. women. Just because a bunch of vocal asshats don't see the way Derior responded to JP as sexist, doesn't mean that it isn't.

[Scud.5067]

Best narrative arc. Ever.