GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Alfador.7649]

> @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> I'm looking up articles on this whole thing, and you literally have articles shilling for a sexist who was fired. And they are doing the usual donkey stuff, where they selectively choose snippets and quotes that match their narrative, because one can. And they think they are relevant? XDDDDD

 

That is a more or less perfect summary of the coverage this is getting. Kotaku's was nauseatingly bad and one-sided but the majority of the "games media" coverage seems to be "poor female dev said this one thing and got mob lynched" while quoting literally just her first 1-2 tweets in the exchange, which while still completely inappropriate, were by far the most benign things she said.

 

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

> @"hashmonkey.2501" said:

> > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> > Its good to hear that in public cases Anet won't defend employees making bad decisions just because they're a women. The real problems are what happens in cases that get successfully suppressed because it doesn't happen to a player that's not part of the partner program.

>

> you do realise a man was fired as well? can you just please stop bringing gender in the equasion it's getting old af.

 

You're really dense if you think that was my point. Besides, this is the whole point of the issue of why they got fired. Sexism. Its getting old af that people are downplaying that.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Loukious.7346" said:

> > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said:

> > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said:

> > > > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve.

> > > > >

> > > > > Edit: grammar

> > > >

> > > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob.

> > >

> > > I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh.

> > >

> >

> > I saw the twitter thread, and honestly, both sides were acting like dummies (I wanna say something meaner, but alas, forum rules). Deroir was pretty much acting condescending and douchey.

>

> I think I need my glasses checked at the VA. Cause I have ZERO clue where you got that from ANY of his tweets towards her through this entire thing

 

His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

[Brother.1504]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> It was the right business decision. We are talking about a self proclaimed professional here. Someone with over ten years of experience working in the gaming industry. Deriors supposed behaviour is a different issue entirely. Even as a partner, he is just an amateur and fan.

> Not that I agree with giving him the blame either way. You simply do not stoop down to a rude customer's level. No matter how rude they are. You can be firm and defend yourself but YOU DO NOT openly insult them or call them names.

>

> And don't give me that 'on her free time' nonsense. She basically went to hang out with their customers and to talk about topics concerning her team's work and ArenaNet as a whole. It may have included twitter rather than a restaurant and nerds on the internet rather than some rich suits but they are still paying customers looking to talk to a member of the team. She was indeed representing her former employer in said situation and did manage to put a rather negative light on them as a company. Producing a PR nightmare.

>

> I would have been fine with a sincere apology rather than terminating both of their contracts but what is done is done. Her behaviour was clearly a bigger deal than some seem to think given ArenaNet's swift action.

 

Someone gets it. The employees acted unprofessionally with the customers publicly. They were probably asked to apologize in a statement. And the resolution is at this point history. Anet resolved the issue quickly and decisively. Any other professional environment the result would have been the same.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> > @"hashmonkey.2501" said:

> > > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> > > Its good to hear that in public cases Anet won't defend employees making bad decisions just because they're a women. The real problems are what happens in cases that get successfully suppressed because it doesn't happen to a player that's not part of the partner program.

> >

> > you do realise a man was fired as well? can you just please stop bringing gender in the equasion it's getting old af.

>

> You're really dense if you think that was my point. Besides, this is the whole point of the issue of why they got fired. Sexism. Its getting old af that people are downplaying that.

Nobody is downplaying it actually. The outrage happened BECAUSE she was being rude and sexist.

Anet did the only thing they could do, and that any company would do if their troops were going berserk on their consumers.

[cyanweapon.7290]

> @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> > @"hashmonkey.2501" said:

> > > @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:

> > > Its good to hear that in public cases Anet won't defend employees making bad decisions just because they're a women. The real problems are what happens in cases that get successfully suppressed because it doesn't happen to a player that's not part of the partner program.

> >

> > you do realise a man was fired as well? can you just please stop bringing gender in the equasion it's getting old af.

>

> You're really dense if you think that was my point. Besides, this is the whole point of the issue of why they got fired. Sexism. Its getting old af that people are downplaying that.

 

You are correct. Sexism. She got fired because of her sexism.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

>

> His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending.

 

Go on quote it and explain why its condescending.

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"HoosierDaddy.8567" said:

> I would like to say two points onto the subject. First being, the customer is not always right, and when it comes to the "general public" spouting off their unavoidably bias opinions as a fact, there is without a doubt going to be a consistent and growing stress that burdens the people whose artistic efforts are being critiqued. As the consumer, we are allowed to applaud the magical display presented to us, or conversely to share our disappointment if the magic seems dull. We still need to remember that we are merely the audience. We are not the ones performing the passionate creation. We hold no bond to the efforts that are complete. We must learn to respect that we are witnessing an art, and art shall always appeal to some more than others. Our opinion, as valid as it may be, is not critical, nor is it necessarily valued.

> However, I am also quite humbled that Mike O' has taken such swift and concise action to protect the fanbase. I do think it was the proper thing to do, no matter how much I can understand the frustration that the developers must endure, especially from the cesspool of social media.

> My thanks to ALL of those whose content I have played and enjoyed, I wish that I took more time to applaud you.

 

the opinions are valued..this "art" is a source of income...

 

disappoint enough patrons and it will cease to be a source of income.

 

do not for 1 second believe that players won't up and dump your game and move on to something else if you can't satisfy them.

[Erej.7534]

This kind of corporate attitude shall be rewarded. Despite being terribly inactive in the game, I will be purchasing an Ultimate edition just on principle.

 

Now, I understand, she had real feelings - and those may be completely out of her ability to control. However, we do expect our fellow humans to control their *actions*, and her actions in response to her feelings were simply inappropriate, in tone, tenor, and scope. Everyone has a right to get angry, upset, and frustrated. That doesn't give you the right to berate the customer base of your employer with venom, vitriol, and vicious screed.

[MorrisG.3681]

It's really sad to see Arenanet do a heel turn like this. Firing someone on the spot is not something that's acceptable, or even legal, where I live. I'm usually a part of the very silent majority but I felt I had to express my disappointment, even if I'm just farting into the wind. I'm a player and a fan, and this is my meager attempt at showing we're not all whiny children, I guess. I really shouldn't have to say this, but since Deroir taught us we can be as condescending as we want towards Anet, here goes:

 

Really interesting firing! However, allow me to disagree *slightly* with how you've handled this. Some companies, when they're unhappy with how their employees act, try to *talk* with their employees to work out a solution. If this proves difficult, try picking a different dialogue option. Make them issue a public apology. You can do that, you know. You're the boss! Great, isn't it? If they refuse to apologise, you can even do it for them! Of course, if that's the case you might want to issue a warning, let them know this sort of thing isn't appreciated. Over in my end of the world, silly little socialist Europe, it's the law to issue written warnings. (A written warning is a warning that's written down, for example on a piece of paper.) I guess you don't have to over there, but I still think it's a decent thing to do, don't you? And the cool thing is, if it happens again, then you actually have cause to fire them! Without coming off as a word that's not allowed on the forum! Boy oh boy, treating people like people sure is exhausting. Nonetheless, super interesting the way you treat your employees like trash! (End)

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"MorrisG.3681" said:

> It's really sad to see Arenanet do a heel turn like this. Firing someone on the spot is not something that's acceptable, or even legal, where I live. I'm usually a part of the very silent majority but I felt I had to express my disappointment, even if I'm just farting into the wind. I'm a player and a fan, and this is my meager attempt at showing we're not all whiny children, I guess. I really shouldn't have to say this, but since Deroir taught us we can be as condescending as we want towards Anet, here goes:

>

> Really interesting firing! However, allow me to disagree *slightly* with how you've handled this. Some companies, when they're unhappy with how their employees act, try to *talk* with their employees to work out a solution. If this proves difficult, try picking a different dialogue option. Make them issue a public apology. You can do that, you know. You're the boss! Great, isn't it? If they refuse to apologise, you can even do it for them! Of course, if that's the case you might want to issue a warning, let them know this sort of thing isn't appreciated. Over in my end of the world, silly little socialist Europe, it's the law to issue written warnings. (A written warning is a warning that's written down, for example on a piece of paper.) I guess you don't have to over there, but I still think it's a decent thing to do, don't you? And the cool thing is, if it happens again, then you actually have cause to fire them! Without coming off as a word that's not allowed on the forum! Boy oh boy, treating people like people sure is exhausting. Nonetheless, super interesting the way you treat your employees like trash! (End)

 

lol

 

Murica.

 

"slightly"

 

the end of your quoting Mr. Deroir........

 

all the rational people saw their full exchange. The result was expected here in the United States of Adults

 

[Nemmar.8491]

> @"Linnea.5146" said:

> ArenaNet, Mr. O'Brien

>

> Firing her was excessive and has only fed the toxicity that is part of the gaming community. You have now signaled that if an employee voices an unpopular opinion on social media they will be fired if the trolls cry loudly enough. 12 years of work at your company should not be outweighed by a single tweet. What she wrote was not nice, but also not unforgivable. A public apology would have been enough.

>

> Congratulations on giving the trolls the ultimate treat.

 

So, the community is to blame for her being rude and making misogynistic comments to play the victim? How about that time where the kindest thing she could say about total biscuit's cancer death was that he can't not hurt us anymore?

There is no defense for the way she behaved. She didn't voice an unpopular opinion, she voiced abuse and disrespect. She had no right to do so, especially in the context of her work with Arena net.

 

Actions have consequences. It would be impossible to keep her in after the damage she did to the companies image, as well as her co-workers. This was the best for Arena net and Guild Wars.

Also, it wasn't a single tweet. Maybe you should watch wooden potatoes video as well. I imagine you are getting your info from some biased site that only tells you part of the story.

She was working only for a year at anet. Obviously she managed to push up a lot of drama internally during that time and finally took to twitter to take it out on the fans that were trying to have a discussion in a public forum, wich she started. Wich was where she posted her comment. Peter honestly should've known better than to support such comments and antagonize the community as well. How do you think this could have gone if they weren't let go? This way Anet is no longer guilty of harboring such characters and won't have to take the revenue loss from lost customers and goodwill. On the contrary, it had a very positive effect.

 

Jessica just needs to learn to behave on a public forum. If you or me said the things she said here, we would be issued a ban. She did it in the context of the company she works for and was fired. That is how the world works. She is responsible for her actions. She is not a 14 yo and shouldn't have to be treated as such.

[Merrick.8604]

Civility for the win.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Linnea.5146" said:

> ArenaNet, Mr. O'Brien

>

> Firing her was excessive and has only fed the toxicity that is part of the gaming community. You have now signalled that if an employee voices an unpopular opinion on social media they will be fired if the trolls cry loudly enough. 12 years 1 year of work at your company should not be outweighed by a single tweet multiple tweets. What she wrote was not nice, but also not unforgivable. A public apology would have been enough.

>

> Congratulations on giving the trolls the ultimate treat.

>

 

[fixed factual errors in your post]

 

I would be more impressed by this argument if she had shown signs of remorse at any time or reached out to Deroir with an apology. She has done neither. She has not apologized to Deroir and she has gone to gaming magazines to push her side of the story without the other side being told.

 

>A public apology would have been enough

 

And yet she has not offered one voluntarily. The assumption is that she is not sorry. So what was MO supposed to do? Should he have forced an insincere apology? Would such a person be the type of Dev you would ever like in a game you want to play or a dev that you would want to ask questions of?

 

Another point. If she had a real case to make of being badly treated she could have gone to a major newsource and told her story of how a female dev was fired for speaking out against sexism. They would have loved that story. The fact that she was unable to do so shows that she was in the wrong and that her own words proved it.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"MorrisG.3681" said:

> It's really sad to see Arenanet do a heel turn like this. Firing someone on the spot is not something that's acceptable, or even legal, where I live. I'm usually a part of the very silent majority but I felt I had to express my disappointment, even if I'm just farting into the wind. I'm a player and a fan, and this is my meager attempt at showing we're not all whiny children, I guess. I really shouldn't have to say this, but since Deroir taught us we can be as condescending as we want towards Anet, here goes:

>

> Really interesting firing! However, allow me to disagree *slightly* with how you've handled this. Some companies, when they're unhappy with how their employees act, try to *talk* with their employees to work out a solution. If this proves difficult, try picking a different dialogue option. Make them issue a public apology. You can do that, you know. You're the boss! Great, isn't it? If they refuse to apologise, you can even do it for them! Of course, if that's the case you might want to issue a warning, let them know this sort of thing isn't appreciated. Over in my end of the world, silly little socialist Europe, it's the law to issue written warnings. (A written warning is a warning that's written down, for example on a piece of paper.) I guess you don't have to over there, but I still think it's a decent thing to do, don't you? And the cool thing is, if it happens again, then you actually have cause to fire them! Without coming off as a word that's not allowed on the forum! Boy oh boy, treating people like people sure is exhausting. Nonetheless, super interesting the way you treat your employees like trash! (End)

 

So first, given this is your first post to this forum I guess you're reacting after reading some of these awfully one sided articles from video game medias.

Let me just show you how much of a fan of that specific dev this Deroir that you're calling "condescending" was:

https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticMistyStingrayDxCat

Done before the whole incident. Since people like you are calling people guilty until proven innocent (something that HEY, doesn't fly AT ALL in your dear Europe :) ) here's a hard factual proof that the guy admired that dev. You're falling for the "condescending" argument like many other, but that's an agenda pushed right at your face.

 

Next, for this "legality" and "morality" issue you're talking about.

There's nothing illegal, or even remotely unacceptable about that. At all. I work in IT in the US and just like Anet, my company would never let me talk shit to our consumers. I would get fired, and rightfully so. It actually happened to one of my colleagues last year (male).

-And- I lived in Europe before, in France particularly. A country where people go on strike for barely any reason and socialism is still strong. Well... the same clause applied the company I worked for. It's considered a "serious fault" and you can be fired for that. Common sense people.

 

You don't know that "internal" talking didn't take place, nobody knows, we can only assume. Usually it's good not to assume the worst.

But ultimately, even if there was no discussion, someone who damaged the company that badly can totally be fired. For the second dev it's a bit more of a grey area I'll admit.

 

I wish all the people that create an account here just now would actually take the time to learn both sides of the story. The WP video is actually pretty great for that, because pretty neutral.

[Harper.4173]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"Harper.4173" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > Right now, I can't stop wondering how badly Price and Fries botched the Come to Jesus meeting.

> > >

> > > This may come as a surprise to you all, but I've been reprimanded at my jobs before. I know, big shocker. Sometimes my aspergers gets in the way, sometimes it is my innate stubbornness and aggressiveness, sometimes it is because of my political ideals. But, _I've never been fired_ for my mistakes. Whenever an issue comes up, if I don't end up hashing it out with that person without it coming to my bosses, I usually just talk out the situation with my bosses and they readily understand. We come to an agreement, and then things continue on as normal. If my bosses want me to do something or stop doing something, they tell me and then I listen. Now, this is all low level stuff. I've never been in a position of true power, and yet all of my bosses were hesitant to fire me over small disagreements.

> > >

> > > So how badly did Price and Fries mess up? There are a lot of ways this could've ended without having the Head of Narrative Development defenestrated. She could've changed her views and apologized. She could've refused to change her views and apologize anyway. She could've explained her situation and apologized. And Fries... he must've messed up pretty bad considering he was tertiary to the whole event. From all of this, I can extrapolate two possible explanations:

> > >

> > > (1): There was a pattern of behavior following behind these two people, and the current scandal was the straw that broke the camel's back. Considering their twitter history and their job history, this is a likely outcome. As mah boi Zack (AKA Richard C. Meyers) says, "A person doesn't get fired. They fired themselves. Their actions and behaviors change for the worse long before they actually get fired. They've mentally quit the job before it actually ends." I've seen it happen before, so there's a good chance that Price and Fries were grating on the nerves of everybody at the office for months, and this event just sealed their fate.

> > >

> > > (2): They quadrupled down, and went into a full aggro threatening stance over the issue. This one isn't as common, but it does happen. Normally it's called spiraling out of control. When they were called in by HR or Mike or whomever handles this, instead of listening and talking they freaked out, stood firm in their actions, refused to apologize or change, and maybe even threatened Anet directly. This is a less likely scenario, but if this happened it would explain why Fries was fired, too. He had a better standing to resolve this issue with an apology, so it makes more sense that he threw it away in martyrdom instead.

> > >

> > > Keep in mind, this is all conjecture via by Occams Razor. It could be that there is further conspiracy about that confounds Occam's Razor, but I can't give serious weight to those ideas.

> >

> > The issue here is one of amplitude. I doubt you've taken on the entirety of your customer base.

> > You mentioned in your post "That person". The difference between your mistakes and these dev's mistakes was scale. You don't fight the community. The community supports and funds the game - they're the lifeblood of the game. You can't turn on it. Even if you dislike them - you suck it up - because their investment of time and resources is what keeps the company you work for afloat.

> > When you turn on them you force the company to choose between you or the community - that won't be a hard choice. Anet already has a lot of bad blood between it and its community.

> >

> > It is true that there were a lot of ways this could have ended without them getting fired - but a lot of them could have cost Anet far more than just letting them go. Would you take that risk? Should you? Changing her views wouldn't have mattered. Once out in the open the damage is done.

> > It's not like she'll change her mind - even if she says she does. It's not like her apology would have been anything but an excuse to save her position. When you make a firm stand and take a strong stance - expect a strong response.

> >

>

> Considering how often I've seen companies [turn against their customers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7p8OzaDjo "https://youtube.com/watch?v=WU7p8OzaDjo"), it isn't as easy a choice as you'd think. Anet has to weigh the costs of getting new employees and the outrage of firing those employees with the outrage of not firing the employees. There's also the ideological stance of the company itself. Chris Ryall of IDW went down in flames for Aubrey Sitterson over his ideals. That was love, man.

>

> But anyway, I find a sincere and prompt apology can accomplish quite a bit. An example of this is the feud between Mara Wilson and Doug Walker. Things with JP snowballed because she kept kicking down the hill, over and over and over again. A single mean tweet against a single person wouldn't cause this kind of uproar, and it would be easy to fix. I mean, you could make the case post hoc that she is the kind of person who could never make a sincere apology, but all that nonsense had to go down first.

>

> By sincere apology, I mean she would have to do more than just say "I'm sorry". She'd have to pay tribute of some kind, Maybe guest star in one of Deroirs videos and not in a back-handed passive-aggressive way. But if she did this, all of the outrage would've quelled, and you would only have the more unforgiving and extreme elements still hounding Anet. So yes, I would make the case that an apology could've fixed all of this. At least, before the part where she doubled down several times (quintuple downed?).

 

I really don't see it as gray as you do. Customers pay bills. Employees are a resource. One is far more valuable than the other in my opinion.

And yeah - that might have been love but love doesn't pay bills. Going down for someone's ideological rants doesn't seem like a good option no matter how you cut it.

 

An apology can be prompt - but sincere? In this day and age? And in this industry? Let's be real for a second. I can type the most sincere apology and not mean a word. Even in video form it can be cut and edited and spiced up to seem like the real deal.

It was clear from her initial stance she wasn't the type that would "mean" a sincere apology - not that she would issue one - not that it would be believed if she did.

People like her are so ideologically possessed and so convinced of their own grandeur and moral superiority that an apology would be utterly worthless.

 

I still would not have forgiven her.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Evon Skyfyre.9673" said:

> I think it was said best when someone said "We should never meet our heroes". Many of us have this image in our minds of what a developer is, and want to be part of the process in any way we can, and forget to remember they are people doing a job, often a thankless one, and expect more than they are able to give. Imagine pouring your heart into something only to have it shredded on a daily basis. I don't know either of the devs in question, but I know what my creative process is like, and staring at a blank page and pulling out a coherent creation, on command is not a fun way to be inspired.

 

You know, there's some ANet devs who frequently interact with the playerbase not just on the forums but on twitch and even used to on twitter **and they were 100% loved by the playerbase who made sure they knew how much we valued their communication.** Just look up Grouch and you can see a prime example of not only someone who got into the business through streaming and community events but also excelled at communicating with fans and was loved by many, he even had a tournament named after him by the community.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Joshua_Davis

[Harper.4173]

> @"apostatecd.6139" said:

> > @"Harper.4173" said:

> > I don't really buy the "habitually belittled" idea - you post an idea in the public space - expect a wide range of responses.

>

> You seem like an okay guy, but having worked in that kind of field, there is a huge difference in tone and pervasive dismissal of my female colleagues that happens that I just notice I don't personally run into. Straight up, the only time I found some of my proposals as a game dev type attacked in a really over the top manner was when someone thought one of my female colleagues proposed it, when it was my work. Anyways, I hope everyone playing gw2 continues to have fun and all, but I just can't in good conscience keep doing so after this so I'm going to move on.

>

 

Another 1 comment account? Why don't you just give up? You're not shifting the tone or driving the narrative. Anyone can see how fake your accounts are.

 

That aside - What you're telling me is just a personal opinion. You have no objective measure for these things. On the other hand I'm sure there are situations in which your female colleagues enjoy a different (more lenient) kind of scrutiny or other advantages. Pros and cons - they come with every facet of biological and individual difference.

 

The initial post the streamer made to her tweet was in no way "over the top". You can't classify it as such unless you're deliberately trying to mislead people who haven't seen this go down first hand.

 

Go ahead - move on - Can I have your stuff? No - because you never played this game in the first place. You never posted here before and you're certainly not part of the community. If I'm wrong and I can be wrong - prove it. Until then the "going to move on" Is about as empty as it can get.

 

[Harper.4173]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> Whether you agree with her firing or not and while Reddit (I'm about done with that place) may have played a role in that firing, JP lost her job because of her tweets. That's clear. If you want to a cause to get behind, Peter Fries is the one who seems wrong to me. They should have swallowed hard and accepted what was coming by firing an outspoken female developer and done so. Then created an internet policy and made sure Peter understood it. You can still have your alt-right marches (man fired due to kitten) and feminism fiestas (man loses job defending feminism). But get behind the right horse. And pray JP gets some help. I'm done with this place for the day... sheesh.

 

Another new account supporting and defending people who were clearly in the wrong. How much further will you try to push your propaganda?

People aren't alt-right just because they don't accept the crazy outbursts of someone who can't control her emotions and can't add two and two together.

What does her being female have to do with anything? She was also more than just outspoken. You can be outspoken without doing stupid things. If you work for a business and that business lives because of its customers - maybe think before you insult the customers. Maybe step away. Maybe quit if you can't handle it. Or do what she did and get fired. The other dev was in the wrong for attempting to spin it into a defensible position. It was not.

And his analogy with astronomers was just laughable.

[Harper.4173]

> @"Shayne Hawke.9160" said:

> So, is it safe to talk politics? Because I'm going to talk some politics.

>

> I have looked over many tweets surrounding this issue, and by far, the most shocking thing was the perception by Jessica that criticism of her viewpoint was gendered. I couldn't read that out of Deroir's tweets, nor could I read any kind of snark or subtle jab of a personal nature. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with Deroir's other work as a YouTuber. But, this perception (and escalation) by Jessica brought such issues into discussion that it made the situation untenable. Jessica does not strike me as the kind of person who has a good understanding of the modern internet, or is perhaps so arrogant that she does not care. There are many other ways this kind of criticism or feedback could have been addressed, easiest among them to simply ignore it. Perhaps that's cold, and there should be (and is) encouragement for devs to communicate with the player base, but GW2 is a big game, and there's only so much time in a day. Blowing off one more person's response is not going to be a big deal. Even several different impulsive responses would not have caused the kind of stir as the one that had been chosen. Even the "thanks for explaining to me how I do my job" tweet alone would have been nothing for anyone to be riled up about. Bringing gender into the equation was a misstep.

>

> However, that along with Peter's tweet about the difference in his actions or statements depending on whether he is choosing to be unprofessional or professional is an indicator of something more worrisome underneath. Jessica and Peter are likely to have certain political viewpoints that caused them to react to this situation in the way that they did. Their arrogance, ineptitude, or relaxation in this instance shows a viewpoint that, despite O'Brien stating is not representative of ANet (which I agree enough with), says something about where the game is going in development. Politics and values manifest in game design. Anybody who doesn't think this is the case hasn't experienced or seen or heard enough about Living Story Season 1, or hasn't compared some overall differences in design between GW and GW2 and related those differences to the different values they promote (for more on this, read up about how r/K theory applies to modern politics, and then think about how it applies to game design). This event is one more instance of a political viewpoint or set of values that I disagree with being found in unprofessional men and women close to the game's development. The politics of the people who make the games I play used to not matter, but neither I nor the industry's climate are the same as they were ten years ago. Jessica and Peter are almost certainly not the only people at ANet who hold the views they do. They simply were the two who chose to react and be involved in the way they were in this event.

>

> It's hard for me to say that I am pleased with the firing of Jessica or Peter. My response to such comments being made by either person is practically nothing, as I am not surprised by such remarks or reactions coming out of employees of ANet, and I have long ago done exactly what I would do if I figured those ideas were common at the top - I stopped playing GW2, mostly. I haven't bought any of the expansions, haven't bought any gems, and haven't even used the currency exchange to help boost the value of gems and encourage others to buy them. I chose this course of action a long time ago though in response to the game itself taking a direction I was not pleased with. This was all after being a very faithful veteran of GW and eager player of GW2. Even setting all politics aside, I wouldn't be interested in buying into GW2 due to several facets of gameplay not meeting my standards. Actions taken by O'Brien in this instance are positive to me in the sense that it removes two persons whose politics perhaps seeped into design in ways that do not please me, but those design decisions are not erased or reverted in any way, and there are indeed many others who work at ANet who perhaps have similar views causing similar choices in design. I am in no mood to conduct or call for a witch hunt for these views among ANet staff. I simply make my own independent choice to not play on account of those views. It is likely that such a response by others who do actively play GW2, who do actually compose GW2's current player base and are paying customers, is exactly the kind of thing that O'Brien seeks to avoid en masse. Unfortunately for him, whether the decision would have been to stand with Jessica and Peter or to fire them, large groups of people will not be pleased. I trust O'Brien's sincerity in this instance for the reasons he provides for letting those two go, and even though it's not enough to win me back as a regular player or customer, I think that the standard of conduct O'Brien is standing for is good.

 

Hit the nail on the head my friend - you're right - games have gotten too political and the politics of those who make them are starting to seep through more and more.

The difference between GW1 and GW2 is night and day in this regard.

[Twyn.7320]

I think some people need to get a sense of reality, acting like this is new for the world of business? This happens all of the time in other industries. If you trash the company image in retail, engineering, software development, healthcare, education etc, you'll be seriously reprimanded or fired. The gaming industry is SO far behind in this, and ArenaNet is employing the business standard in this instance, which other companies are too afraid to do. Have you ever considered why some gaming developers come across as high-horse members of the community? They feel untouchable, as if they're secure in their job regardless of what they say. This doesn't happen anywhere else, and this is why they were fired. End of.

 

If you disagree with this, you're allowed to do that. However, if you supported the firing of the EA employee who horribly tried to glorify TotalBiscuit's death, and you support Jessica Price, you're being a hypocrite. That's not an opinion, that's a cold-blooded fact.

[squallaus.8321]

I'm still waiting for those who claim Deroir's twitter posts are condescending to quote him directly and explain to everyone why what Deroir wrote is considered condescending. Because quite obviously they know something about the etiquettes of posting on public twitter accounts that no one else is aware of.

[Harper.4173]

> @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > @"Harper.4173" said:

> > It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you.

>

> Sweet, so we're now comparing forum ages and post histories to see who is most worthy of posting? You talk big for someone whose help upvote count is only in the mid-200s, greenhorn!

>

> This is the forum equivalent to "lol noob isn't even max level. Her opinion is moot". I have a better idea: how about we not try to be the elitist little kitten the world thinks all gamers are, and just have a civilized discussion WITHOUT the e-kitten comparing. :)

 

You haven't noticed the amount of posters that weren't here before and came here just to push an agenda?

Add them in game - look up their AP score. You'll find some fun things. There's a clear difference between me and them. Calling me greenhorn is silly. You are doing it to prove a point but still - it's silly.

I've been with this game since release, with the franchise since 2008. I've posted suggestions back in the day when they took suggestions for GW2. I've spent more hours on the old forums than anyone should have. There are no records of that anymore. I've got 6k hours on the game and until this year I rarely skipped a day without logging in.

I can prove this to you any way you want. Can they?

As much as you'd like to believe it's not so - I'm not extreme in my views - but you can't just hop on here without ever playing the game, without ever posting before and start going "I'm part of the community and this and that". You're not.

 

This is not about being elitist. This is about people infiltrating the forums and trying to seem like they are part of a community they care about when in truth they're just ideologues who came here to fight for their cause and care nothing for GW2.

 

This is a civilized discussion regarding the GW2 game and the developers/company making it. It is not a political discussion on its own. These are the forums for a GAME. If you want to come here and have your voice heard as part of the community **you should have some - at least a shred of proof you are part of that community**

[Harper.4173]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"Harper.4173" said:

> > It is true that there were a lot of ways this could have ended without them getting fired - but a lot of them could have cost Anet far more than just letting them go. Would you take that risk? Should you? Changing her views wouldn't have mattered. Once out in the open the damage is done.

>

> I've already argued that the consequences of sacking them and so publicly have now actually been revealed to be even worse than the alternative.

>

> > @"Dengar.1785" said:

> > Why do people insist on bringing up dead movements from years ago? Or for that matter, why do people insist on lying this much?

>

> Its not lying, look on reddit to see where this was posted, look at what people are saying in those places eg. kotaku in action or the drama subreddit. GG may not be an organised movement any more but most of those with those beliefs are still around and still in the same sub reddits and still willing to harass.

>

> > @"Harper.4173" said:

> > Of course it looks more divisive. People have been making new accounts in full-alert mode for quite some time now trying to amplify their point of view. It's really quite amusing seeing these 1 star members and accounts with no other posts and no avatars telling us what's what.

>

> Well I'm not new.

>

> > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > The current problem has to do with extreme left. So of course we're talking about that. There's still a majority of people "between" extreme left and extreme right in the society and they can't just be tagged as alt right whenever convenient. If there's any trace of extreme right in this forum I would love to see it. I'm sure reddit have some, but again conveniently extracting them and quoting them in an article is dishonest at best, it absolutely doesn't reflect this community by any mean, just like a radical feminist doesn't reflect the feminist movement (thankfully...)

>

> Its not dishonest, those on reddit are part of the GW2 community, many many of those do not post here due to the moderation policies here. If you read the feedback on reddit its clear that this has become a problem of both the extreme left and the extreme right, mainly due to MOBs response.

 

By what metric are the consequences worse? How did you come to that conclusion?

You're not - but look through the thread. It really isn't hard to spot at all.

[fizzypetal.7936]

> @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> Here's a really interesting piece of backstory someone posted to reddit that I didn't know.

>

> _"So, this was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to see to understand the whole thing from start to finish (at least from Deroir's point of view)._

>

> _For those who can't view this clip - Deroir absolute loves Jessica Price. That is not an overstatement. He said that he loves her responses and that "she's the God of kitten AMAs" and that "she gives great answers all the way through and that it's absolutely amazing to read through." This clip was taken before the incident on twitter occurred._

>

> _So when JP posted her essay on twitter - on a subject that Deroir was interested in (narrative development) and by someone he looked up to and admired because of her thorough, well-crafted and intricate responses in the AMA previously - he saw the chance to engage with her in civil discourse and took it._

>

> _I sincerely hope that JP does see this clip. She needs to understand that not every fan/gamer/man out there is out specifically to get her or to "mansplain" to her. In fact, she went off on a person who greatly admired her work and her intelligence and just wanted to take the chance to speak with her more about her work in narrative development only to be shut down in a very cruel and unwarranted fashion."_

>

>

> His response to the situation: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8wnkw8/deroirs_response_to_the_incident/

 

This^^^

 

The situation is just so sad. If y'all have not seen this...Deroir talks about his perspective as to what occurred during and after the unfortunate Twitter exchange. Deroir appears genuinely upset the whole situation even occurred and that two people lost their jobs. Deroir makes some very good points with regard to conversational engagement.

 

As a woman, I have dealt with the same crap that many of my gender have also dealt with. Frankly, it has, at times, sucked to be a woman as I'm sure many of my gender would agree. I also know that it isn't easy to be a man either, especially in today's world. I try to live with integrity and treat others how I wish to be treated - not how I expect to be treated by others. My expectation meter is set to 0. If shit happens, I deal with it as and when - I don't go looking for it and I'm not sat around waiting for it.

Life is far easier and happier for me living this way.

 

One does have to be a little patient when watching Deroir's video - lots of stops and starts while he finds his words and reads comments. Deroir is Danish and English is not his native language. Skip up to 4:28