CETheLucid.3964 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > He loses nothing from my comments. However, his comments can hurt other people. Interesting, right? You can rest easy he's not trying to get anything from you or hurt anyone with his comments. The only interesting thing is how people are going about stuffing their feet into their mouths over absolutely nothing. That's immensely interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." > > > > > > > > > > This is factually inaccurate. > > > > > > > > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now. > > > > > > Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female. > > > > Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion. > > No he/she politely gave a retort to an open piece then got abused and slammed as sexist, That is not the way a professional acts. Again, I don't agree that it was polite. You'll have to convince me otherwise to move forward in your conversations with me. Unless you just want to hear yourself talk. In that case, I understand why you relate to Deroir so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrielvon.7836 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Morg.5986" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > What exactly are you referring to? > > > > > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional. > > > > > > > > > > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted. > > > > > > > > The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same. > > > > > > Then he's a jerk. But that he did it to a woman does matter. Men still have more physical, economic, and social power over women. His interactions with her contain a different power dynamic than his interactions with other men. > > > > Okay so.. she makes a post about difficulties in writing the episodes for all the different ways people view THEIR "commander" as behaving vs a set in stone written character. Deroir has some ideas and suggestions, how is he to voice them to her? You'd think well, be polite offer your suggestions in a helpful manner directly to her as a response, the most direct way, and as we see it most respectful way. But she doesn't see it as helpful constructive feedback, she sees it as condescending mansplaining because it's a man doing it. So is he to seek out a coworker of hers to bounce the idea off of first and act as a liason? OH NO, now it's excluding her from the process and marginalizing her! There's no way to win when you have an attitude like that. Honestly YOU need to get over yourselves and let constructive dialogue take place without thinking everything is sexism. It's not. Had Miss Price been a male writer expressing the same challenges, Deroir would probably suggested the same thing the same way. The way we see it, telling someone directly when they have a suggestion is seeing them as an intelligent and talented person who can accept feedback or an idea, and possibly make use of it in some way using their own expertise. Going around and telling someone else like say, their boss or some other company rep, seems less respectful > > I stated several times that I don't believe he was polite, helpful, or respectful. His post was about himself at her expense and nothing more. You aren't going to get anywhere with me until you can change my mind on that. The biggest barrier between these conversation is 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Morg.5986" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > What exactly are you referring to? > > > > > > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted. > > > > > > > > > > The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same. > > > > > > > > Then he's a jerk. But that he did it to a woman does matter. Men still have more physical, economic, and social power over women. His interactions with her contain a different power dynamic than his interactions with other men. > > > > > > Okay so.. she makes a post about difficulties in writing the episodes for all the different ways people view THEIR "commander" as behaving vs a set in stone written character. Deroir has some ideas and suggestions, how is he to voice them to her? You'd think well, be polite offer your suggestions in a helpful manner directly to her as a response, the most direct way, and as we see it most respectful way. But she doesn't see it as helpful constructive feedback, she sees it as condescending mansplaining because it's a man doing it. So is he to seek out a coworker of hers to bounce the idea off of first and act as a liason? OH NO, now it's excluding her from the process and marginalizing her! There's no way to win when you have an attitude like that. Honestly YOU need to get over yourselves and let constructive dialogue take place without thinking everything is sexism. It's not. Had Miss Price been a male writer expressing the same challenges, Deroir would probably suggested the same thing the same way. The way we see it, telling someone directly when they have a suggestion is seeing them as an intelligent and talented person who can accept feedback or an idea, and possibly make use of it in some way using their own expertise. Going around and telling someone else like say, their boss or some other company rep, seems less respectful > > > > I stated several times that I don't believe he was polite, helpful, or respectful. His post was about himself at her expense and nothing more. You aren't going to get anywhere with me until you can change my mind on that. > > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women. My real problem is how Anet and the community have reacted. That's where the worst sexism is emerging. Not that everyone who agrees with Anet's decision is doing so out of misogyny (but those making dishonest arguments certainly are). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slayerking.3581 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." > > > > > > > > > > > > This is factually inaccurate. > > > > > > > > > > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now. > > > > > > > > Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female. > > > > > > Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion. > > > > No he/she politely gave a retort to an open piece then got abused and slammed as sexist, That is not the way a professional acts. > > Again, I don't agree that it was polite. You'll have to convince me otherwise to move forward in your conversations with me. Unless you just want to hear yourself talk. In that case, I understand why you relate to Deroir so much. See you're being rude now for nothing, Is it so hard to talk about something without being rude? Maybe you should go back and read what Deroir posted again and again if necessary. Deroir was extremely polite, put their points across in a polite manner and instead of a polite response or no response got abused for literally nothing. Just so you know I have been programming since the 80's and also a builder, Yes I have idiots that try to tell me how to do things or what I should be doing but I don't abuse them for it and I AM a complete arse hole! I just giggle to myself and ignore them. If JP thought that's what was happening then she should have ignored it or been more diplomatic about the response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squallaus.8321 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > That's right. When people look through Derior's twitter account they find nothing. When they look through Price's account however.... she come across as hyper sensitive and will just about see sexism in everything including the lastest infinity wars where she described it as "three hours of pointless misogyny, pointless torture scenes, killing off most of the non-white, non-straight characters, and offensively cheap Holocaust metaphors. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Victus.9301" said: > > ArenaNet you are freaking cowards, at best this is a kitten "talk with HR" situation, but no gotta appease the mob calling for blood. Glad to see we haven't progressed at all from 2014. > > I"m surprised they aren't calling her a witch. Its interesting, this controversy was cross posted to the kotaku in action sub reddit, which is the sub reddit where gamergate types frequent. With the result being at least some of the controversy has been inflamed by them and now they are sticking around. So congrats MOB you've made GW2 the mmo for gamergaters, not sure you really want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is factually inaccurate. > > > > > > > > > > > > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now. > > > > > > > > > > Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female. > > > > > > > > Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion. > > > > > > No he/she politely gave a retort to an open piece then got abused and slammed as sexist, That is not the way a professional acts. > > > > Again, I don't agree that it was polite. You'll have to convince me otherwise to move forward in your conversations with me. Unless you just want to hear yourself talk. In that case, I understand why you relate to Deroir so much. > > See you're being rude now for nothing, Is it so hard to talk about something without being rude? Maybe you should go back and read what Deroir posted again and again if necessary. Deroir was extremely polite, put their points across in a polite manner and instead of a polite response or no response got abused for literally nothing. > Just so you know I have been programming since the 80's and also a builder, Yes I have idiots that try to tell me how to do things or what I should be doing but I don't abuse them for it and I AM a complete kitten hole! I just giggle to myself and ignore them. If JP thought that's what was happening then she should have ignored it or been more diplomatic about the response. I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings. But that doesn't change the fact that I've not convinced that he was polite. I don't understand why you are responding to me, without addressing it, when it is the crux of everything else you've written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squallaus.8321 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > > > > Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women. > My real problem is how Anet and the community have reacted. That's where the worst sexism is emerging. Not that everyone who agrees with Anet's decision is doing so out of misogyny (but those making dishonest arguments certainly are). Now we get to the heart of it. Why should Derior give special treatment in the way that he "talk to women". I think he rather be gender neutral. Which is exactly how he treated Price, as gender Neutral. If you dont want sexism stop asking for special treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuldaj.9518 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Was probably a decision not reached right away. We have no idea if they were fired or they resigned, I admit I didn't read all 16 pages, but the post from page 1 just states "no longer with the company". So maybe there was a lighter punishment being dealt out and something happened during that meeting, we don't know. But going by just how the posts were laid out JP, in my opinion, was definitely in the wrong as there was no sexism in the post by Deroir. A difference of opinion or disagreement, yes, but I didn't see anything insulting that was specifically targeting gender. Victim mentality is a horrible thing, but it is not without its reasons. But if when turning any similar situation in to being a victim instead of just an opposing side (which does not have to mean one side is right and one side is wrong). Now, personal and private are two different things as well. It may have been a personal twitter account but the post itself was public. If it had been a private post or communication no one would have heard about it, unless someone made it public. It today's society everything is connected because we spend so much time being connected via different social media venues. As someone who was in the military it is a set of rules that is starting to make itself more in to the public/private sectors. In the military you are not supposed to wear your uniform except for when you are at work, heading home, or short stops in between (with special events, being well special). The reason for this is not only do you make yourself a target, but you also more publicly represent the armed forces with how you act. Secondly if you get in trouble in your public life, you can actually get in trouble twice. Lets say you break a law and have to go to court for it, afterwards (or maybe even before) you will also face penalties in your military career. We as a society should be supporting all races, all genders, all religions, etc.. Not drawing dividing lines or attempting to use our own classification as a weapon to further ourselves or hinder others. Nor should that behavior be something that is celebrated or even condoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melodyca.8921 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Victus.9301" said: > ArenaNet you are freaking cowards, at best this is a kitten "talk with HR" situation, but no gotta appease the mob calling for blood. Glad to see we haven't progressed at all from 2014. I take solace in knowing other game companies have called out their toxic fandom. The Naughty Dog Developer got a lot of hate recently when he stood up to the fandom and he's still there. This is a step back unfortunately but it will pass. Game Companies are paying the price for giving Youtubers too much power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 They can't win, can they? Let me tell you something. In my line of work if i had f'd and insulted people I wouldn't of had a job either. It's called Customer service. If the company has rules regarding it and it's broken then they act on it. But yet again people are pulling the 'I'm no playing any more' card and rubbing their hands in glee. The only things I will say if if said employee's were flamed into making the comments then the people responsible for bating should be ashamed. Ruining someones life for fun isn't a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > > > > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > > > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > > > > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > > > > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > > > > > > > Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women. > > My real problem is how Anet and the community have reacted. That's where the worst sexism is emerging. Not that everyone who agrees with Anet's decision is doing so out of misogyny (but those making dishonest arguments certainly are). > > Now we get to the heart of it. Why should Derior give special treatment in the way that he "talk to women". I think he rather be gender neutral. This is nonsense. Try again later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronosCosmos.9450 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." > > > > > > > > > > > > This is factually inaccurate. > > > > > > > > > > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now. > > > > > > > > Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female. > > > > > > Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion. > > > > No he/she politely gave a retort to an open piece then got abused and slammed as sexist, That is not the way a professional acts. > > Again, I don't agree that it was polite. You'll have to convince me otherwise to move forward in your conversations with me. Unless you just want to hear yourself talk. In that case, I understand why you relate to Deroir so much. If I made pizza and someone responded and said "Do you think that pepper would make this taste better" in a polite manner, would I get offended? Me personally no, but everyone reacts differently and we could get offended. The point is that Jessica took it above and beyond. Sure it could be frustrating, but there was no need to put that frustration on other people who weren't relevant within the discussion. Her anger towards Deroir was understandable, but what she did afterwards by calling him names and shamefully humiliating anyone who spoke to her was uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devildoc.6721 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > Okay so.. she makes a post about difficulties in writing the episodes for all the different ways people view THEIR "commander" as behaving vs a set in stone written character. Deroir has some ideas and suggestions, how is he to voice them to her? You'd think well, be polite offer your suggestions in a helpful manner directly to her as a response, the most direct way, and as we see it most respectful way. But she doesn't see it as helpful constructive feedback, she sees it as condescending mansplaining because it's a man doing it. So is he to seek out a coworker of hers to bounce the idea off of first and act as a liason? OH NO, now it's excluding her from the process and marginalizing her! There's no way to win when you have an attitude like that. Honestly YOU need to get over yourselves and let constructive dialogue take place without thinking everything is sexism. It's not. Had Miss Price been a male writer expressing the same challenges, Deroir would probably suggested the same thing the same way. The way we see it, telling someone directly when they have a suggestion is seeing them as an intelligent and talented person who can accept feedback or an idea, and possibly make use of it in some way using their own expertise. Going around and telling someone else like say, their boss or some other company rep, seems less respectful > > I stated several times that I don't believe he was polite, helpful, or respectful. His post was about himself at her expense and nothing more. You aren't going to get anywhere with me until you can change my mind on that. What about his response was not polite? Just that he was a man when he did it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"melodyca.8921" said: > > @"Victus.9301" said: > > ArenaNet you are freaking cowards, at best this is a kitten "talk with HR" situation, but no gotta appease the mob calling for blood. Glad to see we haven't progressed at all from 2014. > > I take solace in knowing other game companies have called out their toxic fandom. The Naughty Dog Developer got a lot of hate recently when he stood up to the fandom and he's still there. This is a step back unfortunately but it will pass. Game Companies are paying the price for giving Youtubers too much power. It might not. Companies can survive getting rid of the toxic elements. They often can't appealing to them. If GW2 does get labelled a gamergate game, I'm out of here and never looking back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrielvon.7836 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > @"Morg.5986" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > What exactly are you referring to? > > > > > > > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same. > > > > > > > > > > Then he's a jerk. But that he did it to a woman does matter. Men still have more physical, economic, and social power over women. His interactions with her contain a different power dynamic than his interactions with other men. > > > > > > > > Okay so.. she makes a post about difficulties in writing the episodes for all the different ways people view THEIR "commander" as behaving vs a set in stone written character. Deroir has some ideas and suggestions, how is he to voice them to her? You'd think well, be polite offer your suggestions in a helpful manner directly to her as a response, the most direct way, and as we see it most respectful way. But she doesn't see it as helpful constructive feedback, she sees it as condescending mansplaining because it's a man doing it. So is he to seek out a coworker of hers to bounce the idea off of first and act as a liason? OH NO, now it's excluding her from the process and marginalizing her! There's no way to win when you have an attitude like that. Honestly YOU need to get over yourselves and let constructive dialogue take place without thinking everything is sexism. It's not. Had Miss Price been a male writer expressing the same challenges, Deroir would probably suggested the same thing the same way. The way we see it, telling someone directly when they have a suggestion is seeing them as an intelligent and talented person who can accept feedback or an idea, and possibly make use of it in some way using their own expertise. Going around and telling someone else like say, their boss or some other company rep, seems less respectful > > > > > > I stated several times that I don't believe he was polite, helpful, or respectful. His post was about himself at her expense and nothing more. You aren't going to get anywhere with me until you can change my mind on that. > > > > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > > > > Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women. > My real problem is how Anet and the community have reacted. That's where the worst sexism is emerging. Not that everyone who agrees with Anet's decision is doing so out of misogyny (but those making dishonest arguments certainly are). I agree that Derior has no malicious intention and that the community as a whole is not sexist. The thing is, this case is unprecedented (AFAIK) in Anet's history and this is the 1st such outrage of issues of sex and gender from GW2's community. We cannot assume that if the situation was reverse, the same thing won't happen. I believe if the roles were flipped, the community would have also been thrown into an outrage, actually, I think the outrage would have been several times greater. We can leave the gender of the parties out of further discussion, simply because outrage would have happened either way. The thing is, I'm not sure if you agree that Derior has tried, I believe this is important. While to most people (me included), his actions are appropriate during his conversation with Price. I don't think the average male would even be as polite to any of the genders. Instead of lashing out, wouldn't the better response towards Derior would be a private message to get him to rephrase his statements, rather than a meltdown? I think another point of consideration (as I mentioned earlier) is that we do not know the true reason why Price and Fries has left the company. It could be a compilation of problems or both of them refusing to stand down and apologise, opting to leave instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > > Okay so.. she makes a post about difficulties in writing the episodes for all the different ways people view THEIR "commander" as behaving vs a set in stone written character. Deroir has some ideas and suggestions, how is he to voice them to her? You'd think well, be polite offer your suggestions in a helpful manner directly to her as a response, the most direct way, and as we see it most respectful way. But she doesn't see it as helpful constructive feedback, she sees it as condescending mansplaining because it's a man doing it. So is he to seek out a coworker of hers to bounce the idea off of first and act as a liason? OH NO, now it's excluding her from the process and marginalizing her! There's no way to win when you have an attitude like that. Honestly YOU need to get over yourselves and let constructive dialogue take place without thinking everything is sexism. It's not. Had Miss Price been a male writer expressing the same challenges, Deroir would probably suggested the same thing the same way. The way we see it, telling someone directly when they have a suggestion is seeing them as an intelligent and talented person who can accept feedback or an idea, and possibly make use of it in some way using their own expertise. Going around and telling someone else like say, their boss or some other company rep, seems less respectful > > > > I stated several times that I don't believe he was polite, helpful, or respectful. His post was about himself at her expense and nothing more. You aren't going to get anywhere with me until you can change my mind on that. > > What about his response was not polite? Just that he was a man when he did it? I explained several times before. I have only 3 posts left, then I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is factually inaccurate. > > > > > > > > > > > > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now. > > > > > > > > > > Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female. > > > > > > > > Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion. > > > > > > No he/she politely gave a retort to an open piece then got abused and slammed as sexist, That is not the way a professional acts. > > > > Again, I don't agree that it was polite. You'll have to convince me otherwise to move forward in your conversations with me. Unless you just want to hear yourself talk. In that case, I understand why you relate to Deroir so much. > > If I made pizza and someone responded and said "Do you think that pepper would make this taste better" in a polite manner, would I get offended? Negative. Jessica took it above and beyond. Sure it could be frustrating, but there was no need to put that frustration on other people who weren't relevant within the discussion. Her anger towards Deroir was understandable, but what she did afterwards by calling him names and shamefully humiliating anyone who spoke to her was uncalled for. Non sequitur. I can't respond to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronosCosmos.9450 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is factually inaccurate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female. > > > > > > > > > > Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion. > > > > > > > > No he/she politely gave a retort to an open piece then got abused and slammed as sexist, That is not the way a professional acts. > > > > > > Again, I don't agree that it was polite. You'll have to convince me otherwise to move forward in your conversations with me. Unless you just want to hear yourself talk. In that case, I understand why you relate to Deroir so much. > > > > If I made pizza and someone responded and said "Do you think that pepper would make this taste better" in a polite manner, would I get offended? Negative. Jessica took it above and beyond. Sure it could be frustrating, but there was no need to put that frustration on other people who weren't relevant within the discussion. Her anger towards Deroir was understandable, but what she did afterwards by calling him names and shamefully humiliating anyone who spoke to her was uncalled for. > > Non sequitur. I can't respond to this. If that is your choice; then I respect that. It's logical though. I edited it because I didn't word it the way that I wanted to. Jessica herself was making constructive criticism on other opinions before this incident. What she did was in her right to do so. She gave an opinion which was respected. If you agree with her; then you can agree that constructive criticism should be treated with fairness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Morg.5986" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > What exactly are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he's a jerk. But that he did it to a woman does matter. Men still have more physical, economic, and social power over women. His interactions with her contain a different power dynamic than his interactions with other men. > > > > > > > > > > Okay so.. she makes a post about difficulties in writing the episodes for all the different ways people view THEIR "commander" as behaving vs a set in stone written character. Deroir has some ideas and suggestions, how is he to voice them to her? You'd think well, be polite offer your suggestions in a helpful manner directly to her as a response, the most direct way, and as we see it most respectful way. But she doesn't see it as helpful constructive feedback, she sees it as condescending mansplaining because it's a man doing it. So is he to seek out a coworker of hers to bounce the idea off of first and act as a liason? OH NO, now it's excluding her from the process and marginalizing her! There's no way to win when you have an attitude like that. Honestly YOU need to get over yourselves and let constructive dialogue take place without thinking everything is sexism. It's not. Had Miss Price been a male writer expressing the same challenges, Deroir would probably suggested the same thing the same way. The way we see it, telling someone directly when they have a suggestion is seeing them as an intelligent and talented person who can accept feedback or an idea, and possibly make use of it in some way using their own expertise. Going around and telling someone else like say, their boss or some other company rep, seems less respectful > > > > > > > > I stated several times that I don't believe he was polite, helpful, or respectful. His post was about himself at her expense and nothing more. You aren't going to get anywhere with me until you can change my mind on that. > > > > > > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > > > > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > > > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > > > > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > > > > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > > > > > > > Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women. > > My real problem is how Anet and the community have reacted. That's where the worst sexism is emerging. Not that everyone who agrees with Anet's decision is doing so out of misogyny (but those making dishonest arguments certainly are). > > I agree that Derior has no malicious intention and that the community as a whole is not sexist. The thing is, this case is unprecedented (AFAIK) in Anet's history and this is the 1st such outrage of issues of sex and gender from GW2's community. We cannot assume that if the situation was reverse, the same thing won't happen. I believe if the roles were flipped, the community would have also been thrown into an outrage, actually, I think the outrage would have been several times greater. We can leave the gender of the parties out of further discussion, simply because outrage would have happened either way. > > The thing is, I'm not sure if you agree that Derior has tried, I believe this is important. While to most people (me included), his actions are appropriate during his conversation with Price. I don't think the average male would even be as polite to any of the genders. Instead of lashing out, wouldn't the better response towards Derior would be a private message to get him to rephrase his statements, rather than a meltdown? > > I think another point of consideration (as I mentioned earlier) is that we do not know the true reason why Price and Fries has left the company. It could be a compilation of problems or both of them refusing to stand down and apologise, opting to leave instead. I'm not really about giving cookies for not being as bad as other men. I agree, we don't have the real reason she was fired. But we do have what it looks like to the community. There's a certain crowd that is ecstatic about it, and I don't believe that is good for the rest of the players, the game, and Anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Maybe the darkness is only in your eyes. A friend wrote that from I believe a song lyric, but not certain, a long time ago. Whether they meant it or not they made me consider that sometimes I might assume something and be quite wrong. Humans have been idiots to each other for a long time. Its a matter of choosing, do you reinforce that or improve upon that. No one should ever just stand and take abuse, stand tall for who you are, but don't assume that everyone that's not like you is against you. History is full of idiots, do you want to side with them or become one yourself, or be more. Its easy to be combative and much harder to find common ground. Put yourself to the challenge. Stop looking back and instead look forward, challenge and improve versus see the other side of the coin and reverse the conflict, it doesn't improve it. Racism/sexism and their anti- versions are no better. They are both wrong. Challenge yourself and be more than that. Be vain and think, ok, I am going to better than that and not assume their position. I am going to consider it another way. Its easy to say, they are wrong and I am right, versus, oh, I see that, what's the middle ground. And sorry for the 0/1 peeps, I live in the grey-scale and still have much to learn from old friends. Good hunting to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devildoc.6721 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > > > > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > > > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > > > > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > > > > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > > > > > > > Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women. > > My real problem is how Anet and the community have reacted. That's where the worst sexism is emerging. Not that everyone who agrees with Anet's decision is doing so out of misogyny (but those making dishonest arguments certainly are). > > Now we get to the heart of it. Why should Derior give special treatment in the way that he "talk to women". I think he rather be gender neutral. Which is exactly how he treated Price, as gender Neutral. If you dont want sexism stop asking for special treatment. I want to give both a helpful and thumbs up but it won't let me. But you're right on. Gender equality means treating everyone the same regardless of gender. It means looking eye to eye and saying I'm talking to a human being's mind, not their genitals. Equal respect, treating as an equal in position rather than acting from a position of power or subservience (unless they're your boss or something where they are in a position of power over you) You can't have equality and chivalry (which is, unequal treatment/special treatment) at the same time, Chivalry is by its very nature, not equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrielvon.7836 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Devildoc.6721" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Morg.5986" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > > What exactly are you referring to? > > > > > > > > > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then he's a jerk. But that he did it to a woman does matter. Men still have more physical, economic, and social power over women. His interactions with her contain a different power dynamic than his interactions with other men. > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so.. she makes a post about difficulties in writing the episodes for all the different ways people view THEIR "commander" as behaving vs a set in stone written character. Deroir has some ideas and suggestions, how is he to voice them to her? You'd think well, be polite offer your suggestions in a helpful manner directly to her as a response, the most direct way, and as we see it most respectful way. But she doesn't see it as helpful constructive feedback, she sees it as condescending mansplaining because it's a man doing it. So is he to seek out a coworker of hers to bounce the idea off of first and act as a liason? OH NO, now it's excluding her from the process and marginalizing her! There's no way to win when you have an attitude like that. Honestly YOU need to get over yourselves and let constructive dialogue take place without thinking everything is sexism. It's not. Had Miss Price been a male writer expressing the same challenges, Deroir would probably suggested the same thing the same way. The way we see it, telling someone directly when they have a suggestion is seeing them as an intelligent and talented person who can accept feedback or an idea, and possibly make use of it in some way using their own expertise. Going around and telling someone else like say, their boss or some other company rep, seems less respectful > > > > > > > > > > I stated several times that I don't believe he was polite, helpful, or respectful. His post was about himself at her expense and nothing more. You aren't going to get anywhere with me until you can change my mind on that. > > > > > > > > The biggest barrier between these conversation is > > > > > > > > 1. 1 side assumes that there is malice behind Derior's comments > > > > 2. The other side sees no malice behind Derior comments. > > > > > > > > Now my question is, where do you even draw the line whether there is malice behind his comments or not? How do you objectively define that a comment is malicious or not? > > > > > > > > From what I'm seeing, am I right to say that you assume that there is malice behind Derior's comment based on anecdotal evidences? > > > > > > > > > > Actually, it's a bit more nuanced. I'm not convinced that Derior was intending to be malicious. I think he just doesn't know how to talk to women. > > > My real problem is how Anet and the community have reacted. That's where the worst sexism is emerging. Not that everyone who agrees with Anet's decision is doing so out of misogyny (but those making dishonest arguments certainly are). > > > > I agree that Derior has no malicious intention and that the community as a whole is not sexist. The thing is, this case is unprecedented (AFAIK) in Anet's history and this is the 1st such outrage of issues of sex and gender from GW2's community. We cannot assume that if the situation was reverse, the same thing won't happen. I believe if the roles were flipped, the community would have also been thrown into an outrage, actually, I think the outrage would have been several times greater. We can leave the gender of the parties out of further discussion, simply because outrage would have happened either way. > > > > The thing is, I'm not sure if you agree that Derior has tried, I believe this is important. While to most people (me included), his actions are appropriate during his conversation with Price. I don't think the average male would even be as polite to any of the genders. Instead of lashing out, wouldn't the better response towards Derior would be a private message to get him to rephrase his statements, rather than a meltdown? > > > > I think another point of consideration (as I mentioned earlier) is that we do not know the true reason why Price and Fries has left the company. It could be a compilation of problems or both of them refusing to stand down and apologise, opting to leave instead. > > I'm not really about giving cookies for not being as bad as other men. > > I agree, we don't have the real reason she was fired. But we do have what it looks like to the community. There's a certain crowd that is ecstatic about it, and I don't believe that is good for the rest of the players, the game, and Anet. Right, and the truth is, regardless of era, there will be people who do things simply motivated by hate. However, I don't think it is right to label the whole community as such. Btw, that post about reading everything was not directed to you, rather it was directed to melodyca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"slayerking.3581" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." > > > > > > > > > > > > This is factually inaccurate. > > > > > > > > > > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now. > > > > > > > > Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female. > > > > > > Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion. > > > > No he/she politely gave a retort to an open piece then got abused and slammed as sexist, That is not the way a professional acts. > > Again, I don't agree that it was polite. You'll have to convince me otherwise to move forward in your conversations with me. Unless you just want to hear yourself talk. In that case, I understand why you relate to Deroir so much. Um... Do you, by any chance, block often? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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