GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Alfador.7649]

> @"franzi.8513" said:

> > @"Twyn.7320" said:

> > No one's saying that losing a livelihood is great. However, it was the only rational outcome that ArenaNet had. They were about to lose a lot of business and financial gain if they didn't make the correct decision, in-keeping with the industry standard. She didn't just attack the Guild Wars 2 community, she attacked TotalBiscuit and other developers in the industry, and a Bioware developer was recently fired for the same thing. This story has already spread outwards to multiple media outlets, and the dismissal of the employees involved was the only ending to this horrendous farce.

> >

>

> I don't think it was the best decision. There could have been other options:

>

> - Anet could have apologized for her behavior.

> - Jessica Price could have been told to apologize to the community, too.

> - They could have given her a verbal or a written warning.

> - They could have given her support if she feels stressed by mean comments, sexism and harrassment.

> - They could have told her to delete her Twitter account.

> - etc.

>

> Neither she nor Peter would have lost their jobs, she would most likely not have done something like that again and I'm 100% sure that no one would have cared about the incident 2 weeks later. In my opinion this would have been a much better outcome of the situation. I think most players overreact a bit about her latest Twitter comments. I'm an extremely sensitive person, but not even I felt attacked by her in any way. I'm sure many GW2 players who complain about her behavior have heard her name for the first time yesterday.

 

Do you seriously think for an Istani minute that public apologies were ever a viable option here? Have you _seen_ her twitter history? There is no way on Earth or Tyria that a remotely sincere public apology was forthcoming from that individual. You also have no way of knowing what of that was done or not done.

 

- Anet DID apologies for their behavior and point out that they didn't represent the company's views. If they did nothing else that would have rung completely hollow

- They may very well have. We'll never know for sure, but quite frankly I am absolutely positive that if they did, she refused.

- Asuming she hasn't already been spoken to about these outbursts before. To be honest based on a cursory viewing of just the last few months this is at least the second or third such outburst.

- She could have sought out that support instead of repeatedly attacking customers, community members, and literal business partners of her employer. Needing support isn't a catch all excuse that lets you act like a complete and just avoid consequences.

- If they "told her" to delete her twitter account and word got out, we'd have an even bigger PR disaster than this on Anet's hands.

 

No... when you create a multi-day PR disaster for your employer, one that was easily preventable with even the tiniest bit of restraint, you've proven that you're an absolute liability and ending the employment relationship is a completely reasonable course of action - the most prudent one at that.

[andrew.1798]

> @"franzi.8513" said:

> > @"Twyn.7320" said:

> > No one's saying that losing a livelihood is great. However, it was the only rational outcome that ArenaNet had. They were about to lose a lot of business and financial gain if they didn't make the correct decision, in-keeping with the industry standard. She didn't just attack the Guild Wars 2 community, she attacked TotalBiscuit and other developers in the industry, and a Bioware developer was recently fired for the same thing. This story has already spread outwards to multiple media outlets, and the dismissal of the employees involved was the only ending to this horrendous farce.

> >

>

> I don't think it was the best decision. There could have been other options:

>

> - Anet could have apologized for her behavior.

> - Jessica Price could have been told to apologize to the community, too.

> - They could have given her a verbal or a written warning.

> - They could have given her support if she feels stressed by mean comments, sexism and harrassment.

> - They could have told her to delete her Twitter account.

> - etc.

>

> Neither she nor Peter would have lost their jobs, she would most likely not have done something like that again and I'm 100% sure that no one would have cared about the incident 2 weeks later. In my opinion this would have been a much better outcome of the situation. I think most players overreact a bit about her latest Twitter comments. I'm an extremely sensitive person, but not even I felt attacked by her in any way. I'm sure many GW2 players who complain about her behavior have heard her name for the first time yesterday.

 

You just assuming that they weren't given those options?

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"TSS.4605" said:

> I really don't understand how people can believe that they 'won' with this outcome. Two peoples careers destroyed, devs will probably stop their social media committment and a big fuzz over nothing.

> How can anyone assume to measure a person based on their reaction when Reddit-Police is on a case?

>

> Also, this is about sexism. Look at some of the comments here. I am not talking about the initial "Twitter-Affair". But do people really believe that this did not blow up solely because JP played the "I am a woman"-card? After that, the vultures started flying in.

>

> If this is what the Guild Wars 2 community is, then I don't even want to play this game anymore. I know that no one here cares about that, but it's sad that this is punishment for the other devs as well.

 

It didn't blow up solemnly because of that, but because it was affiliated to Anet, a company that has been dealing with quite a few (undeserved if you ask me) outrages recently. Of course it's gonna get more coverage than a random argument on Twitter. There are millions of them.

Now yes there's certainly -some- people in there that are biased by gender (and current unstable politics), but just like Star Wars, you can't have so many people be just evil sexists, there's something else to maybe understand from this.

[Zedek.8932]

> @"Alfador.7649" said:

> PF's twitter had references to Anet on its description prior to the aforementioned "letting go" of two employees that everyone is reasonably assuming are Jessica and Peter. It's apparent in screenshots and archives of the tweets. Of course, even if he didn't, it's readily apparent from his actions that he was presenting as a member of the company.

 

I do not use Twitter (actually NO social media at all due to this) but the only thing I saw was literally:


 

I took that screenshot myself yesterday. No information visible for the regular user.

 

The other stuff must've been burried somewhere else and should not count towards it.

That's like digging up old pictures in a 1993 magazine and then pointing the finger on it, saying "SEE, IT'S YOU, YOU DID XYZ".

 

 

In Germany I'd dispute that and would probably get ruled in my favour. The company is not directly shown in these posts and my termination would probably be turned into a disciplinary warning. Not sure how poor the US law is.

 

By the way, Twitter now starts to hate on Mr. O'Brien...

 

Excelsior.

[TSS.4605]

> @"rockshock.6378" said:

> > @"TSS.4605" said:

> > I really don't understand how people can believe that they 'won' with this outcome. Two peoples careers destroyed, devs will probably stop their social media committment and a big fuzz over nothing.

> > How can anyone assume to measure a person based on their reaction when Reddit-Police is on a case?

> >

> > Also, this is about sexism. Look at some of the comments here. I am not talking about the initial "Twitter-Affair". But do people really believe that this did not blow up solely because JP played the "I am a woman"-card? After that, the vultures started flying in.

> >

> > If this is what the Guild Wars 2 community is, then I don't even want to play this game anymore. I know that no one here cares about that, but it's sad that this is punishment for the other devs as well.

>

> This isnt the first time Devs been fired over twitter messages. It's not gonna stop devs from talking to the community. Or stop devs from tweeting and interacting. If that was the case it woulda happened a long time ago. And especially EA Devs woulda stopped a long time ago considering all the kitten EA studios gets from fans for their games.

>

> Not sure where you get this dellusion that it'll change how devs interact with a community.

>

 

That is a fair point. But I was referring more to the GW2 devs and not like all devs. EA, as you mentioned, has an unlimited amount of small studios. But with the communiy committment we have here from the GW2 dev team, I think there will be an impact.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

 

> so take gw2 as an example, a product that sold for millions, do you really think the programmers are stupid and are unable to manage themselves?

 

I know of at least one who's had management issues recently

 

[xivor.8754]

I am not certain them losing their job was worth the offense. I believe JP should have received some type of punishment of course, and maybe make a public apology, but a loss of her job seems a tad bit extreme. Definitely, PF shouldn't have lost his job. He brings up valid points in a very "grey" area: public relations vs personal relations in a public domain.

 

I come from service in the US Military where anything I post on Facebook has repercussions. But this is because I was IN THE MILITARY and social media posting could be a detriment to the safety and security of troops on the battlefield.

 

Arenanet, this is not a battlefield. These people have families. They have made a mistake, and should have some sort of punishment. But as a supporter of ArenaNet and a 12 year supporter of the Guild Wars franchise, I value their team a little more than just kicking them to the curb for having a frustrating moment. Allow this to be a teachable moment to the offender.

 

I lost a little respect for MO today.

 

EDIT: I don't know of any other ulterior motivations or details not known outside of the twitter posts referenced, nor do I know the specific Anet standards in public engagement, so I am sure my opinion may change if the scope of the incident widened in the public knowledge.

[brenda.9723]

The totalbiscuit tweet she did was totally not okay. :(

This must have been a hard decision, but I think it was the right one.

[rockshock.6378]

> @"xivor.8754" said:

> I am not certain them losing their job was worth the offense. I believe JP should have received some type of punishment of course, and maybe make a public apology, but a loss of her job seems a tad bit extreme. Definitely, PF shouldn't have lost his job. He brings up valid points in a very "grey" area: public relations vs personal relations in a public domain.

>

> I come from service in the US Military where anything I post on Facebook has repercussions. But this is because I was IN THE MILITARY and social media posting could be a detriment to the safety and security of troops on the battlefield.

>

> Arenanet, this is not a battlefield. These people have families. They have made a mistake, and should have some sort of punishment. But as a supporter of ArenaNet and a 12 year supporter of the Guild Wars franchise, I value their team a little more than just kicking them to the curb for having a frustrating moment. Allow this to be a teachable moment to the offender.

>

> I lost a little respect for MO today.

 

Just like the military needs to protect their troops, Arenanet needs to protect their profits and brand image in the end. Different things, but same outcome. It being a business doesnt change the policys about how to act as a proffesional.

[Xenon.4537]

> @"Healix.5819" said:

> > @"cmpgamer.9628" said:

> > Would you want to keep an employee who explodes at simple criticisms and questions?

>

> It wouldn't have been a problem if she wasn't publicly representing ArenaNet. She was apparently a good writer according to the forums of her last job, but she was known to snip at people and has a long history of this bad behavior.

 

No, it absolutely *would* have been a problem either way. The games industry (especially the art side of it) absolutely requires that people be able to take criticism without blowing up. You simply can't function in a game studio if you are biting people's heads off when they offer feedback. Game development is a hugely collaborative process. If she was unable to accept criticism from her coworkers it would quickly create a toxic working environment. Everyone would be walking on eggshells around her constantly and talking behind her back about her bad attitude. It would break team moral and HR would just be waiting for a good reason to get rid of her.

[TSS.4605]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"TSS.4605" said:

> > I really don't understand how people can believe that they 'won' with this outcome. Two peoples careers destroyed, devs will probably stop their social media committment and a big fuzz over nothing.

> > How can anyone assume to measure a person based on their reaction when Reddit-Police is on a case?

> >

> > Also, this is about sexism. Look at some of the comments here. I am not talking about the initial "Twitter-Affair". But do people really believe that this did not blow up solely because JP played the "I am a woman"-card? After that, the vultures started flying in.

> >

> > If this is what the Guild Wars 2 community is, then I don't even want to play this game anymore. I know that no one here cares about that, but it's sad that this is punishment for the other devs as well.

>

> It didn't blow up solemnly because of that, but because it was affiliated to Anet, a company that has been dealing with quite a few (undeserved if you ask me) outrages recently. Of course it's gonna get more coverage than a random argument on Twitter. There are millions of them.

> Now yes there's certainly -some- people in there that are biased by gender (and current unstable politics), but just like Star Wars, you can't have so many people be just evil sexists, there's something else to maybe understand from this.

 

Ok, maybe the "blow up" part of my post was not really clear. Sure, there are many factors that play into something like this, but I still think the deciding factor that this escalated to this degree is connected to sexism.

So sure, while most people are usually not biased, a few downright "evil" people are enough to tip the scales and turn the discussion into what it ended up becoming.

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"rockshock.6378" said:

> But is as the person mentioned it in his post and wrote that it's his view. And i was asking him, not you. Seeing as you still havent responded to my last question pointed toward you, I assume you stop discussing with people when you're out of ideas to drag your moot point out further.

 

Nah, i'm just too tired to keep doing this back and forth with you. You're obviously not going to change your view and neither do I, so there's nothing to gain from this. I made my stance clear and value the little energy I have too much to further spend it on arguments that lead nowhere.

[Xenon.4537]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > > > > Justice right here:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1. Keep her job --> Bad PR --> bunch of rich shareholders might get less profit as potential business earnings both current and future might beplaced at risk __> more employees potentially have their jobs and livelihoods put at risk

> > > > > > > > > 2. Fire her --> lost her income --> has time to reflect and hopefully learn how to take criticism when working in a position where it works hand in hand - whilst also learning how separate her personal and professional ideologies

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > FIXED THAT FOR YA...

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > this is the reality (if bad PR even exist to a certain extend) and a lot seem to have trouble finding a balance

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Of course Bad PR exists.. what no one knows is what damage it might do from one person/company to the next. A company's reputation takes a long time to build, but potentially one employees Twittertrash to destroy it. Therefore ANET were placed in a no win situation and handled it accordingly.

> > > > > > > > You or I have no idea what took place internally to arrive at the outcomes it did and we do not know if any additional issues internally were also subject to the decision making process.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. yeah except that this is not how profit works (which is merely extortion of the employees); for the shareholders it won't change thus they don't care

> > > > > > > 2. she has other things to worry about than reflecting

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think you really have any kind of grasp on how business works, it's all in your head.

> > > > > > Those shareholders put money into a business and in turn that business not only provides a product for us the players to buy, and hopefully enjoy.. it also employees many other people - hardly extortion of the shareholders. If for whatever reasons business drops then tough decisions may be needed so bad PR poses a risk not just to the shareholders but the business in general... and all those other people employed there.

> > > > > > You think you wouldn't want to make money on a product that you have put a ton of your own money into to making it happen.. that is not extortion, that is business 101. ANET and its shareholders are not running a charity, they are running a business and that business requires its employees to act responsibly whether that be in work time or discussing work related content outside of work. It's that simple.

> > > > > > JP let herself down and the company, and then tried to pull an ism for effect in the hope it would push an advantage in a discussion she wasn't coping well with. Lets hope she uses some of that paycheck to buy PF a very large beer and a whole lot of "I'm so sorry's"

> > > > >

> > > > > who actually produced the product we are talking about? i know very well how business works and your explanation is merely an example of how the shareholders exercise their power (in terms of money, contacts, etc) to cut or hire people which is very true but that doesn't mean that they actually contributed to the product in any way.

> > > >

> > > > You think GW2 was made out from chocolate buttons I guess... who put the money in to the business, which in turn hires the people, which procures the equipment, which pays the bills.. shareholders take a risk that the end product succeeds at least enough to get their initial investment back.. why do you think investors want to see quarterly forecasting, yearly forecasting etc... I really don't think you understand business as well as you think.

> > > > Without there investment there is no product.. that's their contribution.

> > >

> > > yes i'm very aware of this, you just fail to see that investing (which is exercising capital power) does not contribute in producing the product, it's just controlling the flow.

> > > investors actually have the least risk of any involved in business as they are rich enough and it wouldn't affect their lives at all , not talking about small scale personal investment of course. how different is this for the workers who get fired?

> >

> > Lol.. you don't make any sense at all, your going round in your own circles and coming up with answers to your own questions in a roundabout kind of way :)

> > Just because investors have money doesn't mean that it's not a valid contribution.. if they didn't contribute would GW2 be here and if so in what budgeted capacity.. you fail to understand that just being able to afford something doesn't change the rule of business. It matters not what size of investor or investors are involved.. its a valid contribution which the business needs to see a product come to fruition.

> > Without their investment or worse if they pull their investment because of issues like we have seen today.. who pays the other "x" number of employees wages.. like I said, build a business, look for investment to launch a product, employ staff and see how far it gets you when something hits the fan and the investors decide to pull away...

> >

> > Of course this is all theory craft and ANET will likely do just fine through this dark few days.

> > Lesson learned.. think before you open the trap door JP.

>

> so take gw2 as an example, a product that sold for millions, do you really think the programmers are stupid and are unable to manage themselves? gw2 sells itself

> the programmers are limited in capital because it's in the hands of a few investors.

> nobody in the world needs for-profit investors, it's merely the law protecting their capital (protection of private and intellectual property), preventing the workers from taking capital in forms of revenue, sales, w/e. Their salary is the value of their labor, minus the profit made in production taken by the investor, who didn't produce anything but took most hence i call it extortion.

> investors didn't make gw2, the programmers did

>

 

"programmers, programmers, programmers"

 

I'm not sure I believe you actually know how a game studio works...

[Faowri.4159]

I feel sorry for ArenaNet having to deal with this one. Lots of seemingly conflicting but mutually valid points of view all over:

 

* Yes, the dev (at least the original) overreacted. I don't think I saw the second dev's comments.

* Yes, if you are openly affiliated with your employer on social media and misbehave, it is exceedingly standard for said employer to expect you to behave on there and to penalise you if you don't. This is not gender-specific. Nobody's saying you can't post in public, but you do need to be a hell of a lot more careful what you do. Imagine if you were standing on the other side of the street from your office building on break, wearing branded clothing, and start ranting and raving about said company's customers in earshot of said customers. It doesn't matter that you're not 'on the clock', you are damaging your company's reputation and they have the right to deal with that behaviour according to their policy. Online public spaces are **public spaces** and have consequences. If you don't want that to be the case, don't use your real identity, don't proclaim your job from the rooftops, and/or lock your social media the hell down.

* Two human beings just lost their jobs. That sucks.

* Yes, women in male-dominated fields face genuine issues relating specifically to their gender. This is not up for argument. Women deserve to be believed about their experiences. I don't care if you don't agree. I am a woman, I work with women, and we all know what we've seen.

* No, it does not help foster understanding for those issues if you lash out with unnecessary hostility at fans just trying to politely have a dialogue. I would argue, in fact, it causes harm to the genuine causes for concern. Pick your battles.

* Yes, the employees deserved disciplinary action, but not because they were "social justice warriors", so the punishment making the stark-raving equally overreacting gamergate-esque horde think they got exactly what they wanted (and can do so again with the same tactics) surely leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth

 

In short, a complete mess for everyone involved :D

[CptAurellian.9537]

Assuming MO refers to the people everyone expects, this was the right decision. Would have been better if it had not been necessary, but that kind of behaviour was unacceptable.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Zedek.8932" said:

> > @"Alfador.7649" said:

> > PF's twitter had references to Anet on its description prior to the aforementioned "letting go" of two employees that everyone is reasonably assuming are Jessica and Peter. It's apparent in screenshots and archives of the tweets. Of course, even if he didn't, it's readily apparent from his actions that he was presenting as a member of the company.

>

> I do not use Twitter (actually NO social media at all due to this) but the only thing I saw was literally:

> 

>

> I took that screenshot myself yesterday. No information visible for the regular user.

>

> The other stuff must've been burried somewhere else and should not count towards it.

> That's like digging up old pictures in a 1993 magazine and then pointing the finger on it, saying "SEE, IT'S YOU, YOU DID XYZ".

>

>

> In Germany I'd dispute that and would probably get ruled in my favour. The company is not directly shown in these posts and my termination would probably be turned into a disciplinary warning. Not sure how poor the US law is.

>

> By the way, Twitter now starts to hate on Mr. O'Brien...

>

> Excelsior.

 

It's a headscratcher.

But I get the vague impression there's a (rest of the story) out there we may or may not see.

 

We do know a bit about litigation in the provinces too. :)

[Ambush.9420]

> @"Faowri.4159" said:

 

> * Yes, women in male-dominated fields face genuine issues relating specifically to their gender. This is not up for argument. Women deserve to be believed about their experiences.

 

Lmao

[paintpixie.7398]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

>

> I am lucky to be born a white man. The way I see the world is more likely to conform to my viewpoint than it will for you if you aren't also a while male. I don't think we need to apologize for that fact. But it doesn't harm us in any way to acknowledge that not every experience people have mirrors our own nor pointless to consider different the world can be for someone not as lucky. I live in a world where white males control most of the business, politics and money in the USA. I don't have to wonder how I'm being judged because I am the standard everyone is judged against (not me personally of course). Take racism. I can't really know what its like which is why so many white males have trouble with it. But I can listen to those who have experienced and model my behavior accordingly. Of course we have to accept that we have a general frame work of behavior. You can't change it strictly on an individual level. We have to attempt to define accept to that race or whatever group we're talking about. And that's not even going into class. And you should do that for each thing that separates us hopefully so that we are all seeing the world the same. I suspect not everyone wants that change. Especially for white males where its common to find resistance to change and risking the power they hold.

>

> Any ways, that my view.

 

You have no power. You tell yourself that you do, but that you are one of the "nice" powerful people, because it makes you feel good and you personally have character flaws that you want to attribute to everybody as a way of letting yourself off the hook for having them.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"rockshock.6378" said:

> > So, You belive racism against white doesnt exist? Cause it does. Just saying. Maybe you havent experienced it, but it's a thing. Just like men being kitten which is a taboo and high in hidden numbers cause so few report it. White men are in fact abused also if you research into the facts of this world rather than going by an idelogy that uses made up words and other tactics to further their agenda.

>

> This is absolutely going off-topic, nothing is to be gained from discussing this here. But no, it does not exist.

>

 

Its about as on topic as you saying Deroir was exhibiting "covert sexism" to JP based on nothing other than the fact that he was a man talking to a woman.

[Koen.1327]

> @"Xenon.4537" said:

> > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Justice right here:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > 1. Keep her job --> Bad PR --> bunch of rich shareholders might get less profit as potential business earnings both current and future might beplaced at risk __> more employees potentially have their jobs and livelihoods put at risk

> > > > > > > > > > 2. Fire her --> lost her income --> has time to reflect and hopefully learn how to take criticism when working in a position where it works hand in hand - whilst also learning how separate her personal and professional ideologies

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > FIXED THAT FOR YA...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > this is the reality (if bad PR even exist to a certain extend) and a lot seem to have trouble finding a balance

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Of course Bad PR exists.. what no one knows is what damage it might do from one person/company to the next. A company's reputation takes a long time to build, but potentially one employees Twittertrash to destroy it. Therefore ANET were placed in a no win situation and handled it accordingly.

> > > > > > > > > You or I have no idea what took place internally to arrive at the outcomes it did and we do not know if any additional issues internally were also subject to the decision making process.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 1. yeah except that this is not how profit works (which is merely extortion of the employees); for the shareholders it won't change thus they don't care

> > > > > > > > 2. she has other things to worry about than reflecting

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't think you really have any kind of grasp on how business works, it's all in your head.

> > > > > > > Those shareholders put money into a business and in turn that business not only provides a product for us the players to buy, and hopefully enjoy.. it also employees many other people - hardly extortion of the shareholders. If for whatever reasons business drops then tough decisions may be needed so bad PR poses a risk not just to the shareholders but the business in general... and all those other people employed there.

> > > > > > > You think you wouldn't want to make money on a product that you have put a ton of your own money into to making it happen.. that is not extortion, that is business 101. ANET and its shareholders are not running a charity, they are running a business and that business requires its employees to act responsibly whether that be in work time or discussing work related content outside of work. It's that simple.

> > > > > > > JP let herself down and the company, and then tried to pull an ism for effect in the hope it would push an advantage in a discussion she wasn't coping well with. Lets hope she uses some of that paycheck to buy PF a very large beer and a whole lot of "I'm so sorry's"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > who actually produced the product we are talking about? i know very well how business works and your explanation is merely an example of how the shareholders exercise their power (in terms of money, contacts, etc) to cut or hire people which is very true but that doesn't mean that they actually contributed to the product in any way.

> > > > >

> > > > > You think GW2 was made out from chocolate buttons I guess... who put the money in to the business, which in turn hires the people, which procures the equipment, which pays the bills.. shareholders take a risk that the end product succeeds at least enough to get their initial investment back.. why do you think investors want to see quarterly forecasting, yearly forecasting etc... I really don't think you understand business as well as you think.

> > > > > Without there investment there is no product.. that's their contribution.

> > > >

> > > > yes i'm very aware of this, you just fail to see that investing (which is exercising capital power) does not contribute in producing the product, it's just controlling the flow.

> > > > investors actually have the least risk of any involved in business as they are rich enough and it wouldn't affect their lives at all , not talking about small scale personal investment of course. how different is this for the workers who get fired?

> > >

> > > Lol.. you don't make any sense at all, your going round in your own circles and coming up with answers to your own questions in a roundabout kind of way :)

> > > Just because investors have money doesn't mean that it's not a valid contribution.. if they didn't contribute would GW2 be here and if so in what budgeted capacity.. you fail to understand that just being able to afford something doesn't change the rule of business. It matters not what size of investor or investors are involved.. its a valid contribution which the business needs to see a product come to fruition.

> > > Without their investment or worse if they pull their investment because of issues like we have seen today.. who pays the other "x" number of employees wages.. like I said, build a business, look for investment to launch a product, employ staff and see how far it gets you when something hits the fan and the investors decide to pull away...

> > >

> > > Of course this is all theory craft and ANET will likely do just fine through this dark few days.

> > > Lesson learned.. think before you open the trap door JP.

> >

> > so take gw2 as an example, a product that sold for millions, do you really think the programmers are stupid and are unable to manage themselves? gw2 sells itself

> > the programmers are limited in capital because it's in the hands of a few investors.

> > nobody in the world needs for-profit investors, it's merely the law protecting their capital (protection of private and intellectual property), preventing the workers from taking capital in forms of revenue, sales, w/e. Their salary is the value of their labor, minus the profit made in production taken by the investor, who didn't produce anything but took most hence i call it extortion.

> > investors didn't make gw2, the programmers did

> >

>

> "programmers, programmers, programmers"

>

> I'm not sure I believe you actually know how a game studio works...

 

ye i know it's more than programming but i meant the workers in general and wanted to avoid references to more materialistic products as oppose to a video game

for profit enterprises operate the same regardless of how i describe the people who produced the product (in this case gw2)

[Rococo.8347]

> @"Twyn.7320" said:

. So please, try to avoid painting him as a villain for voicing real, evidenced criticism.

 

I don't think he is the 'villain' atall I think the entire episode is a clusterfcuk and shows just how toxic a 'tool' social media is, but I thought his approach warranted some analysis - of course I was clear about that in my final comment - but you chose to ignore that and paint my more nuanced take on why I found Deroir's question to her misplaced and turn it into some Good V Evil cartoon.

 

Its also weird you think its ok to condescend me about tree branching already being in the game, if you believe it is to the extent that Deroir would like it then why arnt you directing your comments to him? he is the person that complained about tree branching? he never said, yes I know we have it we need more, he just said - I want tree branching and it would make the connection better with my character. He didn't voice 'evidenced criticism' as you claim.

 

To be honest its not here in any way that would be considered a big part of your characters narrative - personally I LIKE tree branching, but that wasn't my point in my comment ( my point was its been discussed MANY times and its a permanent 'nope' from Anet on it becoming a significant part of narrative

 

- basically you ignored my thought out analysis of Deroirs take, admonished me for 'claiming' that tee branching doesn't exists then claimed that Deriors request for tree branching was based on 'evidenced criticism' ?

 

I give up.

 

[Alfador.7649]

> @"TSS.4605" said:

> > @"rockshock.6378" said:

> > > @"TSS.4605" said:

> > > I really don't understand how people can believe that they 'won' with this outcome. Two peoples careers destroyed, devs will probably stop their social media committment and a big fuzz over nothing.

> > > How can anyone assume to measure a person based on their reaction when Reddit-Police is on a case?

> > >

> > > Also, this is about sexism. Look at some of the comments here. I am not talking about the initial "Twitter-Affair". But do people really believe that this did not blow up solely because JP played the "I am a woman"-card? After that, the vultures started flying in.

> > >

> > > If this is what the Guild Wars 2 community is, then I don't even want to play this game anymore. I know that no one here cares about that, but it's sad that this is punishment for the other devs as well.

> >

> > This isnt the first time Devs been fired over twitter messages. It's not gonna stop devs from talking to the community. Or stop devs from tweeting and interacting. If that was the case it woulda happened a long time ago. And especially EA Devs woulda stopped a long time ago considering all the kitten EA studios gets from fans for their games.

> >

> > Not sure where you get this dellusion that it'll change how devs interact with a community.

> >

>

> That is a fair point. But I was referring more to the GW2 devs and not like all devs. EA, as you mentioned, has an unlimited amount of small studios. But with the communiy committment we have here from the GW2 dev team, I think there will be an impact.

 

As I said, at the time this went down, it was right there, on his profile. It's not a mystery. Whether or not you use Twitter or not, the idea that someone can _change their profile information_ after a change in status should not be new information for you. I can't spend forever digging through reddit for the thread right now but if you really like I can probably go back and find it for you later if you want more than my word.

Like I said though, even if by some strange occurrence I was wrong... The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter if it was on his profile or not. He was identified as an anet employee as part of the conversation. He was representing arenanet at that point and he chose to stick his hand in the internet equivalent of a band saw. In the context of that conversation he was clearly identified as an employee of the company, directly telling people that their feedback wasn't valued ( a direct contradiction to anet's own stated policies) among other things. It was not ambiguous in any way.

 

As for what would happen in Germany... I could not possibly care less. ArenaNet is not in Germany. Neither of these employees are in Germany. The laws governing their employment are not German laws, and German law isn't some magical bastion of moral authority. These two people work under a set of US labor laws that afford them the respect of treating them like grown adults capable of making their own decisions and being responsible for their own actions. I'm sure you find that to be an utter tragedy but that's just too bad. US law has plenty of flaws in it but I assure you not protecting grown adults from their employers when they throw adolescent tantrums and drag the employer's name through the muck is not one of those flaws. With due respect to your nationality, German law sounds like the problematic system here if it protects people who conduct themselves like this.

[muffi.3964]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"rockshock.6378" said:

> > So, You belive racism against white doesnt exist? Cause it does. Just saying. Maybe you havent experienced it, but it's a thing. Just like men being kitten which is a taboo and high in hidden numbers cause so few report it. White men are in fact abused also if you research into the facts of this world rather than going by an idelogy that uses made up words and other tactics to further their agenda.

>

> This is absolutely going off-topic, nothing is to be gained from discussing this here. But no, it does not exist.

>

 

I hope you know that your opinion isn't respected outside of academics? Common people would laugh at you for saying that.

[Tatwi.3562]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

Zero tolerance for intolerance sets a good example. The actions we take are _choices_. Perhaps this will encourage others to make better choices.

 

Thank you Mike. Path of Fire is awesome by the way! :)

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Faowri.4159" said:

> I feel sorry for ArenaNet having to deal with this one. Lots of seemingly conflicting but mutually valid points of view all over:

>

> * Yes, the dev (at least the original) overreacted. I don't think I saw the second dev's comments.

> * Yes, if you are openly affiliated with your employer on social media and misbehave, it is exceedingly standard for said employer to expect you to behave on there and to penalise you if you don't. This is not gender-specific. Nobody's saying you can't post in public, but you do need to be a hell of a lot more careful what you do. Imagine if you were standing on the other side of the street from your office building on break, wearing branded clothing, and start ranting and raving about said company's customers in earshot of said customers. It doesn't matter that you're not 'on the clock', you are damaging your company's reputation and they have the right to deal with that behaviour according to their policy. Online public spaces are **public spaces** and have consequences. If you don't want that to be the case, don't use your real identity, don't proclaim your job from the rooftops, and/or lock your social media the hell down.

> * Two human beings just lost their jobs. That sucks.

> * Yes, women in male-dominated fields face genuine issues relating specifically to their gender. This is not up for argument. Women deserve to be believed about their experiences. I don't care if you don't agree. I am a woman, I work with women, and we all know what we've seen.

> * No, it does not help foster understanding for those issues if you lash out with unnecessary hostility at fans just trying to politely have a dialogue. I would argue, in fact, it causes harm to the genuine causes for concern. Pick your battles.

> * Yes, the employees deserved disciplinary action, but not because they were "social justice warriors", so the punishment making the stark-raving equally overreacting kitten-esque horde think they got exactly what they wanted (and can do so again with the same tactics) surely leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth

>

> In short, a complete mess for everyone involved :D

 

Thank you, this is well summarized and should hopefully make everyone agree.