GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Tails.9372]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Expect that to be the Future, that Devs will not expose themselves on Social Media.

At least for the sake of discussion I would consider this to be a good thing since arguments should always stand on their own merits regardless of who made them.

 

 

> @"Dengar.1785" said:

> Everything is absolutely *fine* as long as you're not a complete kitten.

^ also this

 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

She got fired from her last job for the exact same thing, agreed to stay quiet save both from bad pr, the lie and release it all on twitter.

If you keep getting fired for your social media interactions, guess what, it not your employers fault. It might be you.

[Julischka Bean.7491]

> @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said:

> > Hello Ace. And so, we are reading the same bits of text, and have come to different conclusions, which is what makes us human. To me, Deroir was trying to keep his cool, and to you he was condescending and douchey. This is why social media is such a problem...not sure what can be about it though.

> >

>

> He wasn't even trying to keep his cool; he was trying to figure out what he did wrong. He idolized her and the work that she did, and was basically reaching out to talk to someone he looked up to about a topic he loved and got absolutely thrashed by her for it. English isn't his first language, but he was doing his best to deescalate the situation and apologize; he just didn't know what to apologize for. None of that mattered though, as it just kept making her more angry the more he tried.

>

> It really kinda hurts to read.

 

> @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said:

> > Hello Ace. And so, we are reading the same bits of text, and have come to different conclusions, which is what makes us human. To me, Deroir was trying to keep his cool, and to you he was condescending and douchey. This is why social media is such a problem...not sure what can be about it though.

> >

>

> He wasn't even trying to keep his cool; he was trying to figure out what he did wrong. He idolized her and the work that she did, and was basically reaching out to talk to someone he looked up to about a topic he loved and got absolutely thrashed by her for it. English isn't his first language, but he was doing his best to deescalate the situation and apologize; he just didn't know what to apologize for. None of that mattered though, as it just kept making her more angry the more he tried.

>

> It really kinda hurts to read.

 

I know. What I meant was here was a lady he admired, talking about subject dear to him, and she went off on him. He handled himself well which is what I meant about keeping his cool.

 

[Tolmos.8395]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> She got fired from her last job for the exact same thing, agreed to stay quiet save both from bad pr, the lie and release it all on twitter.

>

> If you keep getting fired for your social media interactions, guess what, it not your employers fault. It might be you.

 

Ouch. I really hope she learns from this one... but from the sound of her interview with "The Verge", I'm guessing this has only emboldened her to be more hateful. :(

 

It's a shame. She seems really talented and likely worked really hard to get to where she is, but there is only so much toxicity and hate that people and companies can handle.

[Street Peddler.2638]

whats most pathetic is all the news sites blatantly shaping the narrative to defend her. not helping the case for journalists guys.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > Personally I'm still in disbelief that this has happened. Mostly because I've seen the opposite happen about a dozen times. Normally, when confronted about this behavior, they double down and the company they're a part of backs them fully. It is what happened with the comic book industry. It is what happened with journalism. It is what happened with most independent forums that I used to visit. It is what happened to most television shows I used to watch. It is what happened to Magic: The Gathering. It is what happened to countless videogame studios. It is what happened to social sciences. It is what happened to Canada. What do you mean "Canada isn't an industry"? Maple Syrup is a thing!

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, the point being that way too many businesses put complete faith into far-left extremism, and it goes horribly. The businesses assume that all of these people preaching about microaggressions and the patriarchy know what they're talking about, and that everyone disagreeing with the message is proof of the message. GW2 appeared to be right on that track, with Arenanet being "An ideals driven company" and all that. I expected GW2 to give in and Get Woke, Go Broke eventually. When I said that the next LWS4 update would have Tiami go into a diatribe about mansplaining, I was serious. But when Mike dropped the hammer on JP hard, it restored my faith in the company.

> > > >

> > > > The sad part is, I don't think JP is going to learn from this. "kitten always double down" is a phrase for a reason. She'll get snatched up by another game developer that values her stances, and she'll continue man-hating and mass blocking for eternity. Because the moral of this story can't possibly be "treat customers well," "not all adversity is sexism," "branching dialogue is a good thing," or "misandry is bad, too." The moral is "There's a massive conspiracy of alt-right extremist men secretly in control of the gaming industry, and we need to prune our customer base and refuse to serve them." How could it be anything else? But hey, I've been wrong before.

> > >

> > > So when companies put complete faith into far-right extremism, it's alright, but when it's far-left it's a no-no. Thanks for being transparent showing us why the gaming industry is forever effed.

> >

> > In what timeline can you reasonably connect Anet to far right extremism? Don't you think you're being just a _tad_ disingenuous with this narrative?

>

> Funny. I never said Anet in connection to far-right extremism. I said companies in general. But the fact that people are more worried about far-left extremism in general then, well, extremism period, really shows how screwed the gaming industry is.

 

I'm worried about all extremism. What's new with "this" extremism is to constantly claim having the higher grounds while in reality promoting double standard everywhere in their narrative. You've seen it a lot in this thread, even more in journal medias. It does not matter what this content creator was thinking or whether he was just giving feedback or anything, what matters is how the "victim" side FELT about it.

And that is extremely dangerous. It's fantasy before reality, guilty until proven innocent.

 

At the end of the day you could summarize it this way: A non-radical person would have either answered in a neutral manner if they thought the feedback was appropriate, or dismissed it/delete it if they thought it was. If said person was in a period of burn out, they would have said something snarky, and then apologized later after realizing it was wrong to say that from a HUMAN BEING to a HUMAN BEING.

This is gender-less.

A radical feminist will add gender to all of that, and instead of just realizing they were rude, will fantasize about the intent behind something rather than the content itself, and from now on will use it as a justification to their behavior, claiming that their "rude" behavior somewhat explains their rude response.

I don't exactly see a difference between the extremes here. All extremes are basically indulging in some form of discrimination based on a physical property that one individual cannot change. The "far left" is just more sneaky at it (without realizing it maybe?), while getting the support of medias.

 

And we get non sense like "the gw2 community being full of alt rights" or "star wars people who didn't like the latest movies are alt-right sexists" and whatever.

This is the danger right there, shortcuts of reality that no longer bother in fact checking anything, but instead will assume everyone going against a person with higher moral high grounds is necessarily evil from the other extreme side.

 

Ask yourself, how many people here have leaned to the right because of incidents like this? How many people are associating actual feminist movements for women rights to this? How many women here are supportive of ArenaNet while this dev is pretending to speak in the name of them all?

[Devilish.7942]

Thanks! Mike

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

> @"Julischka Bean.7491" said:

> I have a question. I just read the Verge article and something Peter Fries tweeted is troubling me.

>

> “These are our private social media accounts "

>

> Could someone define this use of Private? If their accounts were private, shouldn't they be under a different name than their work name? If everyone knows who they are, it can't be too private.

>

> Just a bit confused.

>

> Lisa.

 

My $0.02 on this.

 

"Privacy" on the internet is a myth, especially if you post on a public platform like Twitter. The internet also never forgets. Once you post something on the internet, it's there forever, no matter how fast you delete or edit it. There's almost always someone who will screenshot a screw up and post it for whatever reason. I mean, sure, you technically could set your social media accounts to an actual private setting where only friends and mutual followers have access (which is what JP and PF should have done to avoid this, that or not have their accounts associated with ArenaNet, their employer) but even then it's still on the internet. There's ways of getting even the most privately-intended content out for the public to see. There's ways of connecting the dots to find out who is connected to who.

 

God knows I've made my share of stupid posts - here and on other sites - but at least I either try to apologize for them or learn from them and move on to try to be a better person. It's why I spend a lot of time thinking to myself "do I really want to make this post?" before I actually post. Again, I'm not perfect. In fact, no one is. We're all prone to having a day where we make a knee-jerk post. What matters, again, is if people learn from their screw ups and/or try to rectify the situation.

 

I don't have all of the information on what happened but it seems like neither JP or PF were willing to do either after their Twitter tirades, which likely played a role in them being let go.

[Redead.3016]

First off I want to thank Mike O'Brien for putting customers first. I started playing Guild Wars 1 shortly after launch and Guild Wars 2 since the initial beta release. If I was treated the same way that Deroir was treated then I would consider leaving the game I have loved for so long. The respect this company gives the community is the whole reason I have continued playing Guild Wars for so long. Despite all of our differences on how we think the game should go, if we can not have open dialog about ideas we will all suffer in the community. Different perspectives about topics always leads to a better product and a better game overall. To all the other employees at Arenanet we thank you for dealing with our complaints and valuing our opinions.

[Ace Kenshader.1253]

> @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > > > @"muffi.3964" said:

> > > > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason.

> > > >

> > > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;)

> > > >

> > > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten.

> > >

> > > Kotaku's big issue is that their brand of journalism is sensational only. They selectively hand-pick facts to try to create the most rage-worthy story they can muster, and leave out really important aspects that actually add context to the situation. You could have a situation where a young woman grabs a knife and tries to stab some random guy on the street, and he pushes her to the ground right before she manages to kill him. The Kotaku article would be titled "Man pushes woman to the ground"

> >

> > You can say that about any gaming site in general. One Angry Gamer, IGN, Gamespot, Gameranx, the Escapist, etc. It's only sensational and cherry picking if one doesn't agree with the article, for others it's just the facts presented to them.

>

> Websites like NPR and Reuters try to actively avoid that by giving all of the facts, which is the main contention folks have with things like Kotaku.

>

> Take "The Verge" article on this situation, for instance. The facts they presented lacked quite a few key pieces:

>

> * The streamer in question always looked up to JP and greatly respected her. He was trying to basically have a conversation about a topic he loved with someone he idolized

>

> * There was no mention of how a large portion of the outrage came from her remarks celebrating the death of Total Biscuit after he died from cancer, or the other bigoted comments about race that she made elsewhere in her feed

>

> * There was no mention of the fact that her twitter directly listed Arenanet, and being an employee of Arenanet, in several places; something that has gotten MANY people fired across many industries when making derogatory statements about folks based on race, gender, nationality or religion

>

> * It didn't show any of the streamer's heartbreakingly sweet and considerate responses to her toxic vitriol trying to deescalate the situation, apologizing profusely despite not actually knowing why or what he did wrong.

>

>

> Instead, the article sought only to create an image of fear mongering: that this poor developer posted on her twitter, an evil-man pig told her to shut up, smile and listen to how it's really done, and then she was fired because reddit was pissed she didn't make them all sammiches. Oh, and watch out other developers of Arenanet: you're probably next! Reddit just has to say the word and Arenanet will have the paperwork filed by lunch!

>

> That may be journalism, but only in-so-much as the magazines next to cash registers talking about how Bill Clinton met with aliens in a limousine are journalism.

 

Not even NPR and Reuters is safe though; after all, tribal epistemology is supreme on the internet. And on your points: Well there are a few wrinkles with a couple of them.

 

1. TB is pretty much a very divisive figure in the gaming community, thanks to his pro-consumer advocacy being hijacked and twisted by the likes of GamerGate (which people still believe TB was a part of). Plus, keep in mind that on the net, people are more open about their thoughts and opinions because of, again, distance and anonymity, and that includes lashing out at someone after they just passed away. As for the bigoted comments on race, you'll have to show me those (because JP installed a GG autoblock bot, and due to me tweeting negatively about that community, I'm automatically on the list)

2. People still have the notion that their personal twitter is just that, personal. Many people still don't know that companies watch over their social media profiles like a vulture-like big brother.

3. Something to keep in mind is that while it may have come off as sweet and considerate for many, and it's likely what Deroir intended. For others it likely came off as shallow, condescending and douchey. People don't share the same universal perspectives.

 

There's also the fact the on right-wing gaming outlets (in the form of OAG and many, many YT channels), they are guilty of doing the same thing, only trying to portray the developers as rabid SJW's who attacked the community in general and that the big 'gaming media' is trying to defend the developers.

 

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/07/weekly-recap-july-7th-guild-wars-2-devs-fired-for-attacking-fans-adl-targets-gamergate/63244/

[Ace Kenshader.1253]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > > Personally I'm still in disbelief that this has happened. Mostly because I've seen the opposite happen about a dozen times. Normally, when confronted about this behavior, they double down and the company they're a part of backs them fully. It is what happened with the comic book industry. It is what happened with journalism. It is what happened with most independent forums that I used to visit. It is what happened to most television shows I used to watch. It is what happened to Magic: The Gathering. It is what happened to countless videogame studios. It is what happened to social sciences. It is what happened to Canada. What do you mean "Canada isn't an industry"? Maple Syrup is a thing!

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, the point being that way too many businesses put complete faith into far-left extremism, and it goes horribly. The businesses assume that all of these people preaching about microaggressions and the patriarchy know what they're talking about, and that everyone disagreeing with the message is proof of the message. GW2 appeared to be right on that track, with Arenanet being "An ideals driven company" and all that. I expected GW2 to give in and Get Woke, Go Broke eventually. When I said that the next LWS4 update would have Tiami go into a diatribe about mansplaining, I was serious. But when Mike dropped the hammer on JP hard, it restored my faith in the company.

> > > > >

> > > > > The sad part is, I don't think JP is going to learn from this. "kitten always double down" is a phrase for a reason. She'll get snatched up by another game developer that values her stances, and she'll continue man-hating and mass blocking for eternity. Because the moral of this story can't possibly be "treat customers well," "not all adversity is sexism," "branching dialogue is a good thing," or "misandry is bad, too." The moral is "There's a massive conspiracy of alt-right extremist men secretly in control of the gaming industry, and we need to prune our customer base and refuse to serve them." How could it be anything else? But hey, I've been wrong before.

> > > >

> > > > So when companies put complete faith into far-right extremism, it's alright, but when it's far-left it's a no-no. Thanks for being transparent showing us why the gaming industry is forever effed.

> > >

> > > In what timeline can you reasonably connect Anet to far right extremism? Don't you think you're being just a _tad_ disingenuous with this narrative?

> >

> > Funny. I never said Anet in connection to far-right extremism. I said companies in general. But the fact that people are more worried about far-left extremism in general then, well, extremism period, really shows how screwed the gaming industry is.

>

> I'm worried about all extremism. What's new with "this" extremism is to constantly claim having the higher grounds while in reality promoting double standard everywhere in their narrative. You've seen it a lot in this thread, even more in journal medias. It does not matter what this content creator was thinking or whether he was just giving feedback or anything, what matters is how the "victim" side FELT about it.

> And that is extremely dangerous. It's fantasy before reality, guilty until proven innocent.

>

> At the end of the day you could summarize it this way: A non-radical person would have either answered in a neutral manner if they thought the feedback was appropriate, or dismissed it/delete it if they thought it was. If said person was in a period of burn out, they would have said something snarky, and then apologized later after realizing it was wrong to say that from a HUMAN BEING to a HUMAN BEING.

> This is gender-less.

> A radical feminist will add gender to all of that, and instead of just realizing they were rude, will fantasize about the intent behind something rather than the content itself, and from now on will use it as a justification to their behavior, claiming that their "rude" behavior somewhat explains their rude response.

> I don't exactly see a difference between the extremes here. All extremes are basically indulging in some form of discrimination based on a physical property that one individual cannot change. The "far left" is just more sneaky at it (without realizing it maybe?), while getting the support of medias.

>

> And we get non sense like "the gw2 community being full of alt rights" or "star wars people who didn't like the latest movies are alt-right sexists" and whatever.

> This is the danger right there, shortcuts of reality that no longer bother in fact checking anything, but instead will assume everyone going against a person with higher moral high grounds is necessarily evil from the other extreme side.

>

> Ask yourself, how many people here have leaned to the right because of incidents like this? How many people are associating actual feminist movements for women rights to this? How many women here are supportive of ArenaNet while this dev is pretending to speak in the name of them all?

 

Again, this basically looks like it's okay when right-wing extremists do this stuff (and yes, they have claimed higher grounds while in reality promoting double standards everywhere in their narrative), but when left-wing extremists do it, suddenly it's trouble and we have to stop it. I mean good lord this is basically what I am talking about.

 

I mean replace "Feminists" with Extremists MRA's who add gender to all of that, and you get the same thing. And also, the far-right is getting their support from the media as well if were going that route. Fox, Breitbart, every-right wing outlet is guilty of it.

 

So let me ask you this in return. How many people have leaned to the left because of incidents like this? How many people are associating actual Men's rights movements who are trying to highlight legitimate issues to this? How many men think that JP and especially PF were thrown under the bus while the 'community' champions this as ArenaNet standing up for the consumer?

[Nagi.8941]

> @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> * It didn't show any of the streamer's heartbreakingly sweet and considerate responses to her toxic vitriol trying to deescalate the situation, apologizing profusely despite not actually knowing why or what he did wrong.

 

This, to me, is a big factor into why the internet raged so hard against her. Anyone who has followed Deroir and kept up with the AMAs knows how big of a fan he was of her work, and how often he pointed out how great it was. It really hurt to see how quickly she just snapped on him, and kept snapping, no matter how much he tried to apologize. Then to have ignorant people online accuse him of getting her fired?

 

Ugh, it’s just bonkers. People can be so disgusting.

 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

> @"Street Peddler.2638" said:

> whats most pathetic is all the news sites blatantly shaping the narrative to defend her. not helping the case for journalists guys.

 

I think its a good thing. Everytime the media does this, they lose credibility. Its like the NYT refusing to list jbp's book. Everytime they do that they only tarnish their own reputation as a gold standard.

[Nagi.8941]

> @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> 3. Something to keep in mind is that while it may have come off as sweet and considerate for many, and it's likely what Deroir intended.

 

Ugh, I wish there was a dislike button on this forum. I would be spamming it.

[Felipe.1807]

Wow, you guys do have a hard on for politics dont you? How about we just stop eh, everything that had to be said, have been said at this point, the conversation is going nowhere and will keep giving amunition and fuel to this drama, its time to stop....

[youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ](

"youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ")

[Tolmos.8395]

> @"Felipe.1807" said:

> Wow, you guys do have a hard on for politics dont you? How about we just stop eh, everything that had to be said, have been said at this point, the conversation is going nowhere and will keep giving amunition and fuel to this drama, its time to stop....

> [youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ](

"youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ")

 

If ever there was an acceptable time to drop an link to Frozen's "Let It Go"...

 

I am disappoint. :(

[Solene.3067]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

A clear statement by the CEO of ArenaNet from the first page of this thread which was approved by a lot of players by positive comments and upvotes. In my opinion he made the right decision.

 

Now we are on page 41 or something and **this thread cannot be taken seriously anymore**. If you are an active player and have a few minutes to spare you can make yourself the fun to look up some account names ingame. This thread is dominated more and more by people who do not care the slightest bit about the game, the community or the company but only have some ideological agenda.

[Ace Kenshader.1253]

> @"Solene.3067" said:

> > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

> >

> > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

> >

> > Mo

>

> A clear statement by the CEO of ArenaNet from the first page of this thread which was approved by a lot of players by positive comments and upvotes. In my opinion he made the right decision.

>

> Now we are on page 41 or something and **this thread cannot be taken seriously anymore**. If you are an active player and have a few minutes to spare you can make yourself the fun to look up some account names ingame. This thread is dominated more and more by people who do not care the slightest bit about the game, the community or the company but only have some ideological agenda.

 

While I will say I haven't played the game since 2016, acting a wee bit disingenuous there? From the looks of it, the statement was much more divisive by the community, and upvotes really mean little since there's no downvote button.

[Ace Kenshader.1253]

> @"Dengar.1785" said:

> > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

> > > @"muffi.3964" said:

> > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason.

> >

> > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;)

> >

> > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten.

>

> That is indeed not what journalism is. Journalism is a profession that reports the facts.

>

> Which is a thing that Kotaku often fails to do.

 

Again, just because you don't like them and don't agree with them doesn't mean they are wrong, period. After all, if we judge the accuracy of outlets based on our own personal biases, there would be no outlet on the net period.

 

After all, there is such a thing as shades of grey, which is what facts are.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > Wow, you guys do have a hard on for politics dont you? How about we just stop eh, everything that had to be said, have been said at this point, the conversation is going nowhere and will keep giving amunition and fuel to this drama, its time to stop....

> > [youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ](

"youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ")

>

> If ever there was an acceptable time to drop an link to Frozen's "Let It Go"...

>

> I am disappoint. :(

 

Right now I'm not even really debating. I'm just posting up random thoughts that come to mind on the subject. By the time it reaches 40 pages, the people who are still going are the unreasonable types, so instead of giving their points weight I just link to quippy videos.

[thruine.8510]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

>

> I'm not gonna read all that, but i will tell you something and then ask you one question.

 

First off, I think that's a bit rude. If you want something of me, then at least read what I said before asking would be the decent thing. This goes back to what I've said how I can see why professionals get tired of some random tweet presuming they owe them an answer about anything. That's how I feel which is why I'm willing to give this woman some compassion. I think she's very troubled as I said... oh, but you didn't bother to read it. In any case....

 

> Price is a person that has reacted like this to EVERY sort of criticism and opinions and differ from hers. She is someone that was also removed from her previous jobs for very similar things and complains from the staff itself. She acts like a social justice spellbreaker constantly, thinking that everything wrong in her life is because men place her down and saying any opinion from a man is mansplaning. She insulted multiple ANet partners and made fun of Totalbiscuit's death when cancer unfortunately took him away. Now that she was fired, she's doubling down on a few things by running to her media friends and telling them, again, that it's men holding her back, suggesting that other women should think about leaving too and trying to say she likes the fans after saying she didn't have to pretend to like them on Twitter.

 

The big thing to me is the TotalBiscuit thing. I've been honest, what I know of him, I don't care for. But that's very little. I think celebrating someone's death is low class and not something I would have done even if I was a target of his. He's gone, let him rest in peace. But from what I heard of the guy, he may be quite pleased his name is being used as a club against others. Now someone like Carrie Fisher's passing sadden me as I had that connection. Its just makes me wonder how on earth did they let him, a stranger to them I would assume, ever affect them to that degree. It doesn't bother me what people say but it made me step back a bit. But the guy's gone. He doesn't really care anymore. You're just making him a weapon so now you're just like those that celebrated his death. He's just a thing now. I hope his family doesn't see any of this stuff for their sake's.

 

As to all the rest, I still see a troubled young lady. I think she's talented and all. I don't think she was born that way. Whatever has happened throughout her life has shaped her and we see the shape its made her. Its painted the world for her in what looks like very dark and divided ways where some of the population she encounters are enemy first and fiend second. I find that quite sad. That doesn't mean she shouldn't pay for her missteps. The problem seems to be she goes through life wrecking her own life without anyone seeming to be there to help her. But she's not wrecking mine. Certainly not anyone on Twitter etc. She didn't cause some kind of mass devastation or world calamity. She disappointed a fan. She didn't take the time to see while even when things are unwelcome they aren't always harmful or judgemental.

 

I'm sad about the human soul that seems broken to me. The saddest thing though comes that I see other human beings thinking another is garbage. Do people know what garbage is? Its something we throw away. That's talking about someone you throw away then celebrating it. Totalbiscuit is dead. He didn't deserve to die and it didn't deserve to be celebrated. Not because of him but because of those that loved him. I will point out she spoke directly to his actions but others did celebrate. In total though, she just seems self destructive. She's still alive and has a life to live. I know she thinks she's standing up and fighting a good fight. And maybe those that do fight those fights are also unlikable people. I don't know.

 

> Now answer me this, is this a person worthy of being defended so much?

 

I don't think she matters so much anymore. She's a symbol now. For those that feel she speaks for them and those that want to tear down whatever they think she symbolizes. This kind of question makes me think some wish her dead or something. I don't see it so much as a defense but either she's experiencing something in her life that is causing this lashing out or she's imagining it. Whatever it is, I hope someone's helping her so yes she deserves to be defended. To a point. If there's been any crime in the whole thing to me its Peter Fries. I don't see the two equal in their crimes or whatever we want to call it. I think he lost his job because an outspoken woman lost hers and it would look bad so they threw a man out with her. Surely every one here knows that MO is lying to us if he's asking us to believe feedback is always welcomed. Of course it isn't. It can't be. You couldn't run a company like that. Certainly not write a story. She saw walls on Twitter. A lot of people do. Its a wall with a little window where we can toss in our love your work, nice dress, where'd you buy that. Lots of high profile people hire someone to handle it. They aren't looking for feedback. This isn't unnatural. Why on earth would ArenaNet not ensure that people keep the personal and work separate. Well, I know why. More money if your developers are talking shop off the clock. But it sets those people up to where they forget once you have someone in your house its not as easy to get them out. Both of them mentioned "personal account" so obviously ArenaNet has no internet policy for employees. Or these two just decided to ignore it. Who knows anymore.

 

Still, I can't get over how some in the community (assumed community) are acting towards another living person. I'm not talking about her job either. Celebrate that all you want. But I've seen multiple trash, garbage and various things along those lines a little too much. And stopping that is worth defending. I hope all that answered your question and yes, the first part of this response was designed specifically to read as it did.

[Ace Kenshader.1253]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > Wow, you guys do have a hard on for politics dont you? How about we just stop eh, everything that had to be said, have been said at this point, the conversation is going nowhere and will keep giving amunition and fuel to this drama, its time to stop....

> > > [youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ](

"youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ")

> >

> > If ever there was an acceptable time to drop an link to Frozen's "Let It Go"...

> >

> > I am disappoint. :(

>

> Right now I'm not even really debating. I'm just posting up random thoughts that come to mind on the subject. By the time it reaches 40 pages, the people who are still going are the unreasonable types, so instead of giving their points weight I just link to quippy videos.

 

Many folks on both sides have been unreasonable from the start though, because this is a very divisive issue within the gaming community. Reasonable is a dead art that really doesn't survive on the internet.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

>

> Again, just because you don't like them and don't agree with them doesn't mean they are wrong, period. After all, if we judge the accuracy of outlets based on our own personal biases, there would be no outlet on the net period.

>

> After all, there is such a thing as shades of grey, which is what facts are.

 

It really does mean that they're wrong. That's the whole point of disagreement: It's the contention of facts. And facts are, by definition, not grey. Interpretations and speculation is grey. Facts are black and white.

 

> @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:

>

> Many folks on both sides have been unreasonable from the start though, because this is a very divisive issue within the gaming community. Reasonable is a dead art that really doesn't survive on the internet.

 

Naw it's just you.

[Belorn.2659]

> @"Harper.4173" said:

> > @"Linnea.5146" said:

> > ArenaNet, Mr. O'Brien

> >

> > Firing her was excessive and has only fed the toxicity that is part of the gaming community. You have now signalled that if an employee voices an unpopular opinion on social media they will be fired if the trolls cry loudly enough. 12 years of work at your company should not be outweighed by a single tweet. What she wrote was not nice, but also not unforgivable. A public apology would have been enough.

> >

> > Congratulations on giving the trolls the ultimate treat.

>

> You know how they say? Play stupid games - win stupid prizes? (this is not an insult - but illustrates the idea I'm about to express quite well)

> There was a time when developers weren't even known let alone interacting with their communities. As company models have shifted so devs are more outspoken and placed in the public eye in order to gather support/hype/interest for the game so too have the risks of doing this increased. If one of the devs angers the community the risks that poses for your publicity and overall image isn't worth keeping them on board I guess.

> For everything you gain you lose something. More exposure - means more vulnerability to public outcry. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

Two general advice that any artist can use to avoid this problem:

1) Do not celebrate when a person die to cancer. Not only will that be extremely offensive to anyone living through a family member who dies in that way, but I would say anyone who has sat next to a hospital bed while a person is under constant and never ending pain only to die later. To list a few types of victims you should avoid saying "I am glad they died": Cancer victims, terrorist victims, victims of murder, victims of murder from domestic abuse, and so on.

2) Remember that anyone looking at your artistic work has their own interpretation on what it says and means. Two people can read the same book and have complete opposite ideas about what the book is about, including when one of those are the author and the other is a fan. Its okey. Writing excuses (audio podcast) has a good episode on this and I strongly recommend listening on it (produced by professional writers!). Keypoint is to not get upset as art is produced by the personal experience of the author and read by the personal experience of the reader. What the author and the reader want out of art is also going to reflect those different views.

 

There we go, the risk eliminated.

[Harper.4173]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Right now, I can't stop wondering how badly Price and Fries botched the Come to Jesus meeting.

>

> This may come as a surprise to you all, but I've been reprimanded at my jobs before. I know, big shocker. Sometimes my aspergers gets in the way, sometimes it is my innate stubbornness and aggressiveness, sometimes it is because of my political ideals. But, _I've never been fired_ for my mistakes. Whenever an issue comes up, if I don't end up hashing it out with that person without it coming to my bosses, I usually just talk out the situation with my bosses and they readily understand. We come to an agreement, and then things continue on as normal. If my bosses want me to do something or stop doing something, they tell me and then I listen. Now, this is all low level stuff. I've never been in a position of true power, and yet all of my bosses were hesitant to fire me over small disagreements.

>

> So how badly did Price and Fries mess up? There are a lot of ways this could've ended without having the Head of Narrative Development defenestrated. She could've changed her views and apologized. She could've refused to change her views and apologize anyway. She could've explained her situation and apologized. And Fries... he must've messed up pretty bad considering he was tertiary to the whole event. From all of this, I can extrapolate two possible explanations:

>

> (1): There was a pattern of behavior following behind these two people, and the current scandal was the straw that broke the camel's back. Considering their twitter history and their job history, this is a likely outcome. As mah boi Zack (AKA Richard C. Meyers) says, "A person doesn't get fired. They fired themselves. Their actions and behaviors change for the worse long before they actually get fired. They've mentally quit the job before it actually ends." I've seen it happen before, so there's a good chance that Price and Fries were grating on the nerves of everybody at the office for months, and this event just sealed their fate.

>

> (2): They quadrupled down, and went into a full aggro threatening stance over the issue. This one isn't as common, but it does happen. Normally it's called spiraling out of control. When they were called in by HR or Mike or whomever handles this, instead of listening and talking they freaked out, stood firm in their actions, refused to apologize or change, and maybe even threatened Anet directly. This is a less likely scenario, but if this happened it would explain why Fries was fired, too. He had a better standing to resolve this issue with an apology, so it makes more sense that he threw it away in martyrdom instead.

>

> Keep in mind, this is all conjecture via by Occams Razor. It could be that there is further conspiracy about that confounds Occam's Razor, but I can't give serious weight to those ideas.

 

The issue here is one of amplitude. I doubt you've taken on the entirety of your customer base.

You mentioned in your post "That person". The difference between your mistakes and these dev's mistakes was scale. You don't fight the community. The community supports and funds the game - they're the lifeblood of the game. You can't turn on it. Even if you dislike them - you suck it up - because their investment of time and resources is what keeps the company you work for afloat.

When you turn on them you force the company to choose between you or the community - that won't be a hard choice. Anet already has a lot of bad blood between it and its community.

 

It is true that there were a lot of ways this could have ended without them getting fired - but a lot of them could have cost Anet far more than just letting them go. Would you take that risk? Should you? Changing her views wouldn't have mattered. Once out in the open the damage is done.

It's not like she'll change her mind - even if she says she does. It's not like her apology would have been anything but an excuse to save her position. When you make a firm stand and take a strong stance - expect a strong response.