Wintermute.5408 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Yeah. You don't get to both trash-talk people and associate yourself with the game. Because here are the results. Good riddance to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > @"Ambush.9420" said: > > > > Except it really hasn't. Look around, the discussion for this is pretty much dead. Almost everyone accepts what happened, and is completely fine with it. Look on Reddit, even look on these forums.. the discussion is mostly over. > > > > Only thing keeping it going is a handful (at best) leftist trolls. > > > > Give it 1 or 2 more days, and even most of them will stop. > > > > It's over. > > > > This particular event perhaps. But the ongoing discussion of how devs should approach toxic players isn't ending anytime soon. It's not a new discussion in gaming, nor is it a unique discussion to ArenaNet. The issue that needs to be considered going forward is balancing dev-player interactions fairly. Players shouldn't walk all over devs, nor should devs abuse their customers. Regardless, topics like this are worth keeping an eye on and learning from to move forward. Deroir, INKS and Jebro were not toxic, they were polite as possible, no matter how much people try to twist the story...come on, she turned Jebro talking about Marvel Infinity wars into a political thing(claiming sexism and racism lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Harper.4173" said: > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > > @"Harper.4173" said: > > > > It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you. > > > > > > Sweet, so we're now comparing forum ages and post histories to see who is most worthy of posting? You talk big for someone whose help upvote count is only in the mid-200s, greenhorn! > > > > > > This is the forum equivalent to "lol noob isn't even max level. Her opinion is moot". I have a better idea: how about we not try to be the elitist little kitten the world thinks all gamers are, and just have a civilized discussion WITHOUT the e-kitten comparing. :) > > > > You haven't noticed the amount of posters that weren't here before and came here just to push an agenda? > > Add them in game - look up their AP score. You'll find some fun things. There's a clear difference between me and them. Calling me greenhorn is silly. You are doing it to prove a point but still - it's silly. > > I've been with this game since release, with the franchise since 2008. I've posted suggestions back in the day when they took suggestions for GW2. I've spent more hours on the old forums than anyone should have. There are no records of that anymore. I've got 6k hours on the game and until this year I rarely skipped a day without logging in. > > I can prove this to you any way you want. Can they? > > As much as you'd like to believe it's not so - I'm not extreme in my views - but you can't just hop on here without ever playing the game, without ever posting before and start going "I'm part of the community and this and that". You're not. > > > > This is not about being elitist. This is about people infiltrating the forums and trying to seem like they are part of a community they care about when in truth they're just ideologues who came here to fight for their cause and care nothing for GW2. > > > > This is a civilized discussion regarding the GW2 game and the developers/company making it. It is not a political discussion on its own. These are the forums for a GAME. If you want to come here and have your voice heard as part of the community **you should have some - at least a shred of proof you are part of that community** > > > Honest question here: > > Do you think that people are buying copies of the game, supporting ANet financially, just to comment on this topic? > I'm pretty sure they're using accounts that don't regularly play. Whether they get their keys from Anet or some third party site I do not care - but I've seen more than one suspicious account. Why are they here now? One idea could be "they came from reddit" but if that is true - and they're regular reddit users why aren't they there spamming their ideas instead of here. I mean - if they preferred reddit before why would they change that and come here now? It doesn't add up. I think that they're getting accounts somehow - and regardless of how they're getting them the problem is people that are NOT part of the community posing as members of the community in order to push an agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Dragon.4032" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > @"Dragon.4032" said: > > > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > > > > > Mo > > > > > > You have done poorly by firing the two employees who had contributed into making this game possible. It was rash, inappropriate and one sided. Clearly ArenaNet failed to take in considerations whatever that might have been upsetting for Jessica in her work environment. The consequence of this insensitive decision will likely come to affect the game community. I didn't respect your manner in handling this situation. > > > > JP was only a writer for less than a year, what are you talking about? > > > > Also, REALLY? You have the guts to say that ANet is to blame for not taking in considerations? DO YOU KNOW WHO SHE IS? Do you know what she has said? > > > > What the heck is this obsession with defending that woman? She's a monster that's happy that a man died of cancer, she's an insane social justice berserker that drops the "sexist" card every single time someone realizes she made a mistake or has an opinion different to hers. > > "Only a writer for less than a year". So that's how you think Anet should be maintaining their policy with the employees? In fact I'm seeing more than that, when Fries got fired for sharing his opinions in defense of his fellow colleague, and his involvement with Anet for 12 years meant nothing whatsoever. It's a flawed decision to fire any of them, almost like knee jerk reaction to a situation. It wasn't properly thought out and didn't leave a room for any kind of understanding. And people like you seem already poised against Jessica for whatever reason. So when this Jessica made the statements she made did it seem to you it left room for any kind of understanding? You get dealt with in the same way you deal with others. It makes perfect sense for people who rally together against paying customers to get the boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyron.7081 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ > > There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." > > All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: > > _Ask yourself:_ > When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. > > _Next ask yourself:_ > If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. > > _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ > What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. > > This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. > > At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. > > _With regards to PF:_ > He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. > > _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ > The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. > > The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. > * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. > > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. Well said, and I agree with you mostly. However, Twitter isn't private. Social media by definition is not private. JP's comments were directed at players (customers). With that said, I agree with Anet's decision. But let's be real, PF got fired so JP couldn't come back and play the "I'm an oppressed victim" card. And that is unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffi.3964 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 All these people here who claim that mansplaining exists need to stop and take a look in the mirror. I'm not a woman but "mansplaining" does not exist, I can't believe that I have to explain this simple fact but gamers ALWAYS feel like they know better than the gamedev regardless of his gender (take a look at the dead by daylight killer community) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherBelial.3094 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Well, I'm not surprised by the action ANet took. If you are going to post something on Twitter people are going to reply and talk to you. If you want your privacy or not have people talk to you about work, don't post about your job. If you are going to pull the sexism card, make sure you are 100% sure they are being sexist. Also with the internet being what is it, just because you are having a conversation with someone in English, that will not mean it is there first language. Also unless you know/use games correctly you can't always get the tone of a comment. So things can be taken the wrong way. On closing it's also worth keeping in mind that if you don't want to interact with players of the game you work on, keep your job out of your Twitter profile. That way you can have your space and not have to worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zephyron.7081" said: > Well said, and I agree with you mostly. However, Twitter isn't private. Social media by definition is not private. JP's comments were directed at players (customers). With that said, I agree with Anet's decision. But let's be real, PF got fired so JP couldn't come back and play the "I'm an oppressed victim" card. And that is unfortunate. This is unfortunately the most probable cause of PF getting fired. He didn't deserve to get fired because he didn't assault another user, nor made wild accusations. He was fired so JP couldn't play the "I was fired because I'm a woman, look at PF, he defended me but didn't get fired" card. It's sad because I liked the work of both of them. > @"Felipe.1807" said: > Deroir, INKS and Jebro were not toxic, they were polite as possible, no matter how much people try to twist the story...come on, she turned Jebro talking about Marvel Infinity wars into a political thing(claiming sexism and racism lol). Exactly they were all really polite but JP attacked them. I'm wondering why she wasn't banned from Twitter before she was fired, as she broke multiple Twitter rules with her posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ > > There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." > > All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: > > _Ask yourself:_ > When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. > > _Next ask yourself:_ > If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. > > _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ > What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. > > This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. > > At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. > > _With regards to PF:_ > He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. > > _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ > The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. > > The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. > * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. > > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. She was posting on an account tagged as being a Dev from Arenanet. She was continuing a discussion from an AMA, an “Ask Me Anything”. You know, where the players can ask the devs anything. While she was off the clock she was most definitely “flying the ANet flag.” The account she was on was a twitter account marked as public. And in addition, Twitter is a site for people to talk to each other about subjects of interest. She was broadcasting to the world with an ANet Dev identity with the Twitter “door” wide open for anybody to walk into the conversation and join in. No, she had no privacy at all right then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ > > There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." > > All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: > > _Ask yourself:_ > When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. > > _Next ask yourself:_ > If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. > > _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ > What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. > > This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. > > At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. > > _With regards to PF:_ > He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. > > _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ > The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. > > The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. > * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. > > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. Just want to thank you for saying what some more people think about this situation, but doing it in a clearer way. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanna.4762 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 To be fair, we don't know what discussions were had privately with the two, or how they played out as well as any additional factors that may have lead to the decision for dismissal. I do agree with those saying that at least in PF's case, it seems like it was a very rash and unfair dismissal and that some form of counselling on the issue could have helped give him a chance to correct course rather than outright dismissal, just from an outside perspective. In JP's case, it's a little different because she turned what was a suggestion from someone in the GW2 community, and a content creator, and turned it into something it clearly wasn't, and then proceeded to double down on that. Regardless of what anyones intention is with social media, it is **social** media, and unless your account is completely private, what you do and say is put out there into the world and you are representing whoever you work for. Also, the topic was the game in which they are employed to work on so what they say on the subject is directly related to their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rukia.4802 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 She's got some extremely backwards logic there... I sense some heavy sexism. I hate to see someone lose their job but it was either that or ban her from social media. Her comments are incredibly outlandish lol. Protip: not all men are out to get you, be careful not to be over zealous with your beliefs. I work closely with many females including my boss and we have 0 issues though I can't speak for game development. Hopefully she uses this as a learning experience instead of fueling more of her hatred, and hopefully can find another job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > Deroir, INKS and Jebro were not toxic, they were polite as possible, no matter how much people try to twist the story...come on, she turned Jebro talking about Marvel Infinity wars into a political thing(claiming sexism and racism lol). What i found more comical about diatribe was that she berated the MCU for pandering, gender oppression and other issues when Marvel (and the MCU) are one of the most inclusive and diverse companies/projects out there. Not only was she wrong about that, she was then wrong again by committing the same cardinal sin she berated deriror for her a Game Developer calling the Scriptwring garbage for a Multi-billion dollar franchise, remind us which one was the amateur telling the pro how to do their job again ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ > > There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." > > All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: > > _Ask yourself:_ > When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. > > _Next ask yourself:_ > If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. > > _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ > What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. > > This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. > > At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. > > _With regards to PF:_ > He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. > > _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ > The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. > > The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. > * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. > > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. 1. This is not about legal responsibility - it is about optics and publicity. Yes - the company is not legally responsible for what the employees do after hours - but its overall image can be hurt by these actions regardless simply through association. **It has nothing to do with legal issues and everything to do with outrage driving sales down and customers being unhappy because they were insulted**. 2. When you post on your platform where you work it's like wearing a badge. The company can be interested in where you wear that badge and what you do when you wear it. This was not a situation where the employee had no visible link to that company. It's the same with regular individuals. If we're associated and you make a show of our association - I will then be concerned with your actions regardless of whether you're together with me or not **because the actions you undertake while presenting your association to me will influence me whether I like it or not**. It's pretty simple social dynamics. 3. You don't seem to get it. If you're publicly associated with a person or a company your opinion will matter to that person or company **if your actions impact them negatively**. The issue here was she misbehaved. This was a small issue - the real issue is she started insulting customers. Which can be a big financial issue no company will risk. How is it that hard to understand? **The issue was not just her misbehaving or reacting poorly - it was the fact that the did so and took on the paying customers of a company - which in turn forced the company to do something about it** 4. It was not a lynching - I don't think you know what those are. People didn't hurt her, nobody did anything to her. The community got outraged at the situation and decided to threaten to vote with their wallet. The company had to make a choice. The outraged paying customers or the misbehaving developers. The choice was obvious. 5. "and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. " - wow - it's almost as if companies were ran for a profit and not for the benefit of the people who work there. Who would have thought? 6. "In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter." - and in mine anything short of firing the two would have ended up with me no longer supporting Anet financially no matter what. 7. "At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours." - nor does the community need to keep paying for GW2 if Anet decided to keep such an employee on board. She can do her counselling and discuss her frustration while the community took their money elsewhere. Again- Anet is not a psych hospital where people get their frustrations fixed - it's a FOR PROFIT COMPANY. 8. "Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully." he did not speak the truth - comparing her work to an astronomer's? Wow. And that aside - why do you complain when a layman answers if you post your ideas on a public platform where anyone can answer? If you're so fed up with the layman's opinion why not take your posts to a super-inclusive elite community of writers where only the best and brightest game devs get to post while the unwashed plebs that regular players are cannot post. 9. "He took the fall for being a good co-worker. " - Sometimes you have to know when to sit one out. 10. "The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. " This is not about good and evil/ right or wrong. This is about a *single* person's decision to upset a large group of people that had a lot of leverage. It was the worst call she could make and she deserves what she got. I don't care if she was frustrated or not - you make mistakes this big you deserve to get burned. If she had been smart she'd have controlled herself. The world doesn't owe her anything - she made a mistake and she got what she wanted. You don't fight paying customers. 11. Why did she make those posts? Doesn't she realize that such opinions can harm her at work or in any other circumstance? If you're going to hold or have controversial views do it anonymously unless you are prepared to face the possible consequences of those views. But don't act all surprised when those things come around and bite you. 12. "The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. " - Their struggle is on them alone. They decided to make an enemy out of something you shouldn't make an enemy of. You don't get to make these kinds of mistakes and get a free pass. 13. "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." - perhaps next times devs will be less keen on making enemies of the community. I mean - if you don't like the community that's fine. Not everyone likes their job or the people they work for ( the people that buy their product) - but it's generally good business that if that is the case **you keep it to yourself** - or you quit and then talk as much as you want when those people can no longer touch you. 14. "Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years." - Why should I do that when the human in question didn't even bother to do half of it? 15. "Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion." - this was not an issue of privacy. A breach of privacy would have been in effect if someone had hacked her PRIVATE data. She posted this on a **public platform**. 16. "this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone." - what I choose to spend my money on most certainly IS my business. I can speak my mind - if the company cares they care. If they don't they don't. It's not the first time the community has been outspoken. 17. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Zephyron.7081" said: > > Well said, and I agree with you mostly. However, Twitter isn't private. Social media by definition is not private. JP's comments were directed at players (customers). With that said, I agree with Anet's decision. But let's be real, PF got fired so JP couldn't come back and play the "I'm an oppressed victim" card. And that is unfortunate. > > This is unfortunately the most probable cause of PF getting fired. He didn't deserve to get fired because he didn't assault another user, nor made wild accusations. He was fired so JP couldn't play the "I was fired because I'm a woman, look at PF, he defended me but didn't get fired" card. It's sad because I liked the work of both of them. > yeah it is sad, cause I actually agree with what she said about the problems on making a MMo character, people cant play this game and expect their characters to be like Geralt or Shepard or anything of the kind...I played other MMOs(mostly Asians ones), and GW2 looks like Shakespare when compared to the rest...its sucks how the whole thing turned out.... > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > Deroir, INKS and Jebro were not toxic, they were polite as possible, no matter how much people try to twist the story...come on, she turned Jebro talking about Marvel Infinity wars into a political thing(claiming sexism and racism lol). > > What i found more comical about diatribe was that she berated the MCU for pandering, gender oppression and other issues when Marvel (and the MCU) are one of the most inclusive and diverse companies/projects out there. Not only was she wrong about that, she was then wrong again by committing the same cardinal sin she berated deriror for her a Game Developer calling the Scriptwring garbage for a Multi-billion dollar franchise, remind us which one was the amateur telling the pro how to do their job again ? Yeah that was fun...i mean, she even watched the movies? I mean, just look at the last Spider Man movie lol(was a good movie by the way, had little to no problem with changing characters ethnicity, well maybe a little bit lol) or Thor movies were you have black/asians norse gods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Final takeaways....... My entire political spectrum has changed a bit, it is very very hard to support a movement that has shown itself to so obviously go to the dirty tricks/social engineering playbook....it's actually almost Orwellian. I mean what I have witnessed is no different than INSOC trying to change the narrative that Oceania is no longer at war with Eurasia. It makes me question the larger picture......though it seems to even question is to be labeled alt right at worst paranoid at best, still.... what if what we are being told isn't actually true about who is suffering and why? What if "The good people" are actually diametric from any perceived modern notion of good? What if we are being narrated into a certain mindset by those who wish to keep or take power over everything and everyone? So much so that I went back and reread the book and this quote.....which I barely remembered in High School gave me chills. _"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."_ George Orwell 1984 When people, and Journalism go beyond having an opinion to actively trying to change a narrative we end up with something terrifying . And if that can happen in gaming it can happen in other corporations.....which means it is happening in government, and actual true freedom is an illusion and we are cattle being herded towards something sinister. We have lost introspection as a species....we just want our position now and anyone that disagrees is evil and must be destroyed, and that my friends is rational straight from Pol Pot. I hope folks who are raging right now takes a step back to look at the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintpixie.7398 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: >That hurts us all - albeit in different ways. For the under-represented, claims of any type of discrimination may not be taken as seriously, for others, fear of speaking in public spaces and what that could lead to if their intention is deliberately or unintentionally misunderstood. > I agree. That is the problem she has turned this into. And the more she opens her mouth over it, the more I'm glad that she is gone. I'm surprised they didn't have her sign something saying she wouldn't smear their names through the mud on her way out, but she is just proving why the decision was a good one and probably burning future bridges with potential employers. It's a shame, really. Because she actually did have some real points in what she originally said. I think she is good at what she does. And I don't think she is a nasty person or anything, but I think maybe she was burning out. I've been burnt out before, and I know how rough that can be. And who among us hasn't said something that has gotten us in trouble? So, it's a shame. But I am glad that Anet made the decision they did, especially in light of her behavior after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOrlyFactor.8341 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Slightly off-topic but with regards to mansplaining, womansplaining, and all that stuff, good news! There's already a word for that AND it's gender neutral! https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/condescending You're welcome. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemmar.8491 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zedek.8932" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > I'm sorry, I just can't believe that for a second. What happened was serious enough to potentially damage a company and no country that want to keep its companies "there" will forbid them to take action. > > It's sad really cause recent living story episodes were great but that's how it is now I guess... > > Okay, if you can't believe it, here you go: > I just pick something off the internet to show how it works, with a very similar case in Germany: > > A polish guy that works as truck driver in Germany and that has been 14 years with the company has been fired because he posted a picture of the concentration camp Auschwitz and added: "Poland is ready to welcome refugees". He's been seen on other pictures and post that he works as driver for said company and the profession. The employer instantly fired him and the guy removed the posts and apologied but still he's being terminated because of that and the negative publicity it can/could create. > > The labour court of Mannheim however nullified the termination. They agreed that it was more satire than harmful but posting it on Facebook is basically available to everyone, and that includes clients of the truck company. However, it was not necessary to fire the driver over it. A disclipinary measure would've been deemed enough and the past 14 years in the company without any problem is a sign for that. The instant and the "regular" (scheduled) termination would've been illegal. > > He can still get removed off the company, but just with compensation and just if he agrees. > > (In German: https://anwalt-kg.de/newsbeitrag/arbeitsrecht/kuendigung-wegen-facebook-posts-die-gefahren-von-social-media/) > > Excelsior. > > I'm sure you can understand that nothing in the case at hand can be interpreted as a joke or humor. It wasn't satyre. It was verbal abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. I agree with you regarding PF, it's sad that he was fired too. Now about JP my feelings used to be the same, because I didn't know her, then I was sent this gem: What you said about posting hate threads should apply to posting on Twitter. She was begging to be fired since 25 May 2018. Maybe Arenanet themselves were doing the same? Giving her one more chance to put her hatred aside? But she failed, again, this time assaulting the community. I bet in JP's life, cancer is a "narrative device" used to kill important people in her stories. Otherwise she would've been at least more sensitive. And again, I agree with you and people should consider that there is a human being on other side and also consider the impact of any reactions. JP never did though, she got what she deserved. And I don't consider her a decent human being to begin with, so all that doesn't apply to her. Had I known she said something like that (only 1 month ago) then I'd created a massive reddit thread to have her fired already. TB was someone I respected, I followed him since he first started, a loyal supporter and I mostly agreed with his commentary. But even those that did not, have to give him credit for being thorough. And to finish it off using her own bitter words: "I'm glad she is no longer around to keep doing harm" the unfortunate thing here is that she will go and infect another company with her presence. It saddens me to think that PF defended such a horrible human being :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordhelmos.7623 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ > > There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." > > All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: > > _Ask yourself:_ > When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. > > _Next ask yourself:_ > If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. > > _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ > What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. > > This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. > > At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. > > _With regards to PF:_ > He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. > > _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ > The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. > > The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. > * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. > > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. I would argue with you that "corporate gag policies" are required in this age. It is an employee's responsibility to separate work life from home life. Smart individuals will use proxy accounts and ensure there is strong segregation between their online persona that is associated to the company and their personal accounts. Corporations hold many assets that are valuable. Trade secrets, intellectual property, assets, earnings, and stakeholders are all important to the company. However, in the digital age another important aspect that needs protection is REPUTATION. We live in a digital society where the truth has lost a large amount of value. Someone can post something on social media about a company that will deal extreme damage to the company's reputation regardless of it is true or not. Even if the accusation is disproven later, the damage in financial value has already been done to the company. What these two devs did on social media caused lasting damage to the ArenaNet company. A large financial loss and reputation tarnish was caused by their actions and they should have separated their online personas from their workplace. From the perspective of a CEO, if an employee conducted an action that costed my company hundreds of thousands of dollars because they were negligent in their use of social media and did not follow company protocols to separate their personal views from being interpreted as a corporate message -then caused extreme damage because of this, then yes I would terminate them. Corporate "gag orders" are absolutely necessary. If you are not being smart about what you do as an employee, blaring your own horn on the social media platform without separating yourself from the company's voice can and will do large amount of damage. What these devs did was negatively plastered on every major gaming outlet AND was top of the list on reddit/all, which is seen by hundreds of thousands of users. They did a large amount of damage to the company and painted a picture of PR negligence and community abuse. From this perspectives and because they did not follow company policy, their termination in my eyes was warranted and any sane CEO would have done the same thing. Granted I liked (past tense) Gw2 mechanically as a game, but never did personally like ArenaNet as a company. However, despite my personal views on how they operate what the CEO did was perfectly warranted and justified. If anyone from any company gets a top negative headline about the company plastered on CNN, then yes they would be immediately terminated. Companies cannot afford to tolerate reputational damage. In the case of myself, I took a 60 day break from the game and was on the fence about coming back. My leave of absence from Gw2 was based on disparities between myself and Gw2's treatment of its players (e.g. lack of communication, shallow PR, glassdoor information, general quality of game direction). I was willing to perhaps maybe overlook some of those misgivings because a.) a large playerbase of my friends are active on this game, and b.) despite my differences with ArenaNet the original base game is still very good. However can you imagine someone in my position coming back to this? For me, I'm never coming back over this. Reputation damage has been done, while it is in the process of being contained they did and will lose players over this. Discussions about this will continue for weeks. How can that not be considered damage? Should anyone that draws this sort of negative publicity be kept in the company? Definitely not. So yes, corporate social media policies are necessary, warranted, and should be followed. If you are a major online company and DONT have a social media policy, your CEO must be out of his (or her) mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Zushada.6108" said: > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > > I agree with you regarding PF, it's sad that he was fired too. Now about JP my feelings used to be the same, because I didn't know her, then I was sent this gem: > > What you said about posting hate threads should apply to posting on Twitter. She was begging to be fired since 25 May 2018. Maybe Arenanet themselves were doing the same? Giving her one more chance to put her hatred aside? But she failed, again, this time assaulting the community. > > I bet in JP's life, cancer is a "narrative device" used to kill important people in her stories. Otherwise she would've been at least more sensitive. > And again, I agree with you and people should consider that there is a human being on other side and also consider the impact of any reactions. JP never did though, she got what she deserved. And I don't consider her a decent human being to begin with, so all that doesn't apply to her. Had I known she said something like that (only 1 month ago) then I'd created a massive reddit thread to have her fired already. TB was someone I respected, I followed him since he first started, a loyal supporter and I mostly agreed with his commentary. But even those that did not, have to give him credit for being thorough. > > And to finish it off using her own bitter words: "I'm glad she is no longer around to keep doing harm" the unfortunate thing here is that she will go and infect another company with her presence. It saddens me to think that PF defended such a horrible human being :( Yeah, that was little extreme...i mean, sure Total Biscuit is some kind of game critic on Youtube, he for sure influence lots of people, and she probably had a lot of hate coming to her thanks to him(just like any other game dev)...she can hate the dude as much as she want, she dosent, like she said herself to our community, "pretend to likes", but to say those things when he died...is like dancing and pissing over his grave while his family watches, come on, how can someone defends her on this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrin.1035 Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ > > There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." > > All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: > > _Ask yourself:_ > When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. > > _Next ask yourself:_ > If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. > > _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ > What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. > > This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. > > At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. > > _With regards to PF:_ > He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. > > _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ > The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. > > The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." > > So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: > > * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. > * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. > * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. > > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. Oiy... This post is riddled with failed logic, naivety, and clearly has no grasp on reality whatsoever. However, it is well organized and written. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusanyu.4057 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 While I hate Drama, I thought i would chime in on someone who works with the law. (note I am not an attorney ) but, my job of the past 20 years does require a understanding of the law. lets break down the parties in the initial incident Party A: two persons who on there private twitter accounts were speaking as employees of arena net. Party B: We had one person who is a Streaming Partner of Arena Net (Basically a business partner) Party B asks party A a question it was not rudely worded and attempts to have a conversation about said contents of said question. Party A gets upset and resorts to using a **gender based Pejorative against a business partner.** ((I am making this bold this for a reason)) I am not a Arena net employee so i do not have access to there employee handbook but its a modern company so it is safe to guess that it would have a _Zero Tolerance policy for Racism and Sexism._ This would put Anet in a situation that the persons involved, broke that policy and had to be disciplined in a way outlined in the manual. Stupidity on Antisocial media claims yet another casualty Someday people will learn that Twitter and Facebook are a place to share photos of your dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulyssean.1709 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 This is the second time in 12 months that JP has been fired for making baseless allegations against people. I am glad that Anet has neutralised her irrational hate early on. As a Native American I do not like seeing such hatred in any way, shape or form and I strongly believe that a lot of people in this fine game come here to escape such in the real world. PF? I sympathise with him but it must be remembered that he scoffed at a living person's words simply because of that living person's gender. I feel he should go to a country where sexism is horrific and where certain genders are not allowed education. He could do great good there. It must be remembered that there is a victim in all of this. I hope the people who were verbally attacked by the former Anet Developers are doing well. From what I understand Deroir was a big fan of JPs work before all of this. It is a shame indeed but well done to Mike O'Brien for taking out hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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