TexZero.7910 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > "showing a feeling of patronizing superiority." > > Intent doesn't necessarily apply. I mentioned much earlier that there are far better ways he could have gotten his point across. In fact, had he, he wouldn't have had to couch it in flattery. "I like what you said but...." is a warning sign. You think anything he posted came from a position of superiority ? That's likely your first problem right there. To the vast majority of people it looked nothing like him being superior. Having discourse with someone sure, superior....gonna have to prove that one and you'll be hard pressed to do so. Also, as stated your revisionist history is bad because you outright lie about the events in question demeaning Derior's several apologies to "sorry, not sorry". You're really quick to impugn his character, and it's pretty damn sad that you'd stick up for someone like JP after all the stuff she's spewed but debase someone who was innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, for the people who defend Price, please explain this to me: why are her actions acceptable? Why is what she said appropriate? Why is celebrating the death of a well-known streamer okay? Why is cursing someone out with no provocation a good thing to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Confronting sexism" isn't a valid excuse here. As Saelenthi pointed out, tone is infamously difficult to discern on the internet. Where is the sexism in Deroir's post? And EVEN IF THERE WAS, Price is an employee at a company, PUBLICLY REPRESENTING that company. It is her JOB to be one of the public faces of that company, to be professional and polite, because she does not represent herself, she represents the company. Privately - to a friend on the phone or in person or whatever - she's free to complain all she wants! But NOT in a public space, and NOT while she is representing a company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tone is difficult to discern, but discern it you must...otherwise all written words would be toneless, and there would be no reason to read or write novels, in which you often have to discern the tone of the author...would be the same in this case, and a lot of use determined that the tone of, at least for me, the last tweet from Deroir, was condescending. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, she's not in PR, she's in Narrative, if she was in PR then it would be her job to one of the public faces of the company, but seeing as she worked in Narrative and not PR, it shouldn't be, not everyone is cutout to do PR work, which is why you have people that specialize in PR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears to me that a lot of people want their speech controlled by who they work for when that speech is in a public space...it reminds how we've taken a complete 180 from the original Greeks, those people that had specific corners where someone could stand up and say anything they wanted...do any of you remember that from Greek history, of course it also started to turn away from being completely free public speech during those same times...so we've been doing this to each other for eons now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don’t want to control speech, we just want people to show some respect to their fellow human beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This, exactly. I'm all for free speech. People have fought and died in wars for that precious freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also all for professional courtesy, responsibility, and self control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying that not everyone is cut out for PR work is basically giving an excuse to Price's words. "Well, she's not in PR, so how could she have been expected to behave civilly?" Because she's representing a company. Because her twitter account is not private. Because as a representative of that company, she has a responsibility to act professionally. Because she's a human being and should therefore realize that flying off the handle to a politely dissenting opinion, just because of some *perceived* insult or agenda, is *probably* an overreaction to the extreme. Freedom of speech also means that you take responsibility for your words. Deroir did. Price did not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Price wasn't representing the company in that context. And no, her putting that she works for Anet in her bio doesn't mean that. A lot of people, especially in her field do that for networking. She didn't mention Anet once in her tweets. She just wanted to talk about game design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I'm not going to disagree with you that she was uncivil in her response. But to connect it to her career is unfair. Where do you draw the line? How many people here should be fired for the comments they made? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, she was representing the company. If I work for a coffee shop and I wear a t-shirt with the words "proud employee of [coffee shop]" on it, even though I'm not at work, I'm representing that company and publicly proclaiming the fact that I'm an employee there. Price was publicly proclaiming she was an employee of ArenaNet. She was representing the company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this your opinion? Or is there something to back it up? You are basically arguing that people are entirely subservient to their employers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If said people are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - talking about work related things > > > > > > > - have made very clear whom they work for (via clothing for example) > > > > > > > - have used said work relation to garner credibility > > > > > > > - to fans of said company > > > > > > > - have their company in their twitter bio > > > > > > > - have not set their profile to private > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then yes, they are representing the company even in their free time and on their social media account. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm trying to get at here. Where is the line? I expect us each to have our own opinions about that. But overall, we should consider something that actually works in the real world. Something that protects people from being unfair abused. I don't necessarily mean insults. I mean people being genuinely hurt in such a way that it affects their lives and livelihoods. If you feel those guidelines do that, then that's fine for you. However, I think that's a lot to ask of an employee, who just wants to do the job they love well. > > > > > > > > > > It's almost like none of us had a job here... > > > > > I work in IT too, and I use an alias to express free speech. That's the line. Public figure = don't insult people. Pretty much like IRL actually. > > > > > > > > > > And JP has the same problem you're having right now. Everyone is working hard to demonstrate there was absolutely no ill intend in the initial message. Nobody is even denying that yes it might have been uncalled for. But what do you do? You refuse to even considerate the fact there's no ill intent, you refuse to acknowledge it, and instead you double down by pulling the gender card. > > > > > And just like JP, you won't ever apologize for making a mistake. > > > > > > > > > > The problem is while you, as a anonymous user don't have to apologize, she as a public figure, is the first thing she should have done after realizing this specific case wasn't sexist at all, instead of doubling down. > > > > > Burn out happens, Women do get some snarky comments from time to time and it IS absolutely disgusting, but just like everyone they can also be unfair. So instead of being stubborn and calling all the evils of the world on a mistake, just own that mistake. It's what it takes to be professional and it's something all women and men are subject to. > > > > > > > > > > I know I can't prove it now, but trust me if there had been a single sign acknowledging a mistake (not even entering the debate, but just saying "I've had a bad day, sorry if that came out rude" I would have been on your side against all kinds of extreme right you think surround her. The fact is that to this day, she still hasn't. > > > > > > > > Again, I've already stated that I don't believe that Deroir intended to offend Jessica. Not sure why you are so hung up on me. I'm just trying to explain what I believe. > > > > > > Because you spent quite a few pages sticking on the "mansplain" argument, and calling Deroir condescending? > > > I'm glad if you changed your mind though, debating about what are the limits of social medias is indeed more important the fantasies. > > > > Oh, I still believe he was mansplaining, which is condescending. Again, I just don't believe that he realized he was doing that. JP saw it, and flipped out. It could have easily been resolved by the two of them, but both choose to dig in. JP for going beyond her initial post on it. And Deroir for his "Sorry, not sorry" apology. > > You can believe it, it doesn't make it true. You're allowed to be sexist it's not yet illegal. > > Deroir gave up after his initial response. To me, the "intent" I see is someone disillusioned and shocked by the rude answer of the dev. To you it's sorry not sorry, oh well. > Doesn't change the fact that the gender card was pulled after, and the guy stopped before that. > You know, if I really wanted to feed this non sense, I could just as well said that literally everything she said after her initial post was womansplaining. Her tone is actually condescending to me, and I'm pretty sure the intent is also to be that way. > But yeah, I'd rather believe that it's that person, not her gender, that makes her condescending. Womansplaining isn't a thing just like his mansplaining is BS. On JP overreacting, we both agree. I understand why and think the consequences are far greater than the crime. But she came out looking worse in the scenario between her and Deroir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furoshiki.6231 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > So companies should fire their employees whenever they are uncivil? No. But that doesn't accurately cover the situation here. 1. It wasn't merely incivility. 2. It didn't occur within a vacuum. - She was, very publicly, "uncivil" to a company partner for commenting on the game; when it's his job to comment on the game. - It wasn't the first time. - She suggested to her sizable follower-base that the company partner only commented because she was a women; what about the fact that she is part of the narrative team and had just given an AMA (which is what prompted her twitter thread)? - She publicly implied that GW2 team members only pretend to care about the customer-base. - etc. We also don't actually know what went down within Arenanet. For all we know, and what is more than likely what happened, they sat her down to talk about what went wrong and how to do damage control, and she either couldn't see what she did wrong or didn't care, forcing Arenanet's hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 What worries is me the most is the amount of lies being spread across the media and the negative repercussions it may have for the company. Will future employees be able to see through the lies of biased middlemen recruiters and educators trying to steer prospective employees away from them? > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > So, for the people who defend Price, please explain this to me: why are her actions acceptable? Why is what she said appropriate? Why is celebrating the death of a well-known streamer okay? Why is cursing someone out with no provocation a good thing to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Confronting sexism" isn't a valid excuse here. As Saelenthi pointed out, tone is infamously difficult to discern on the internet. Where is the sexism in Deroir's post? And EVEN IF THERE WAS, Price is an employee at a company, PUBLICLY REPRESENTING that company. It is her JOB to be one of the public faces of that company, to be professional and polite, because she does not represent herself, she represents the company. Privately - to a friend on the phone or in person or whatever - she's free to complain all she wants! But NOT in a public space, and NOT while she is representing a company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tone is difficult to discern, but discern it you must...otherwise all written words would be toneless, and there would be no reason to read or write novels, in which you often have to discern the tone of the author...would be the same in this case, and a lot of use determined that the tone of, at least for me, the last tweet from Deroir, was condescending. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, she's not in PR, she's in Narrative, if she was in PR then it would be her job to one of the public faces of the company, but seeing as she worked in Narrative and not PR, it shouldn't be, not everyone is cutout to do PR work, which is why you have people that specialize in PR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears to me that a lot of people want their speech controlled by who they work for when that speech is in a public space...it reminds how we've taken a complete 180 from the original Greeks, those people that had specific corners where someone could stand up and say anything they wanted...do any of you remember that from Greek history, of course it also started to turn away from being completely free public speech during those same times...so we've been doing this to each other for eons now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don’t want to control speech, we just want people to show some respect to their fellow human beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > This, exactly. I'm all for free speech. People have fought and died in wars for that precious freedom. > > > > > > I'm also all for professional courtesy, responsibility, and self control. > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying that not everyone is cut out for PR work is basically giving an excuse to Price's words. "Well, she's not in PR, so how could she have been expected to behave civilly?" Because she's representing a company. Because her twitter account is not private. Because as a representative of that company, she has a responsibility to act professionally. Because she's a human being and should therefore realize that flying off the handle to a politely dissenting opinion, just because of some *perceived* insult or agenda, is *probably* an overreaction to the extreme. Freedom of speech also means that you take responsibility for your words. Deroir did. Price did not. > > > > > > > > > > But Price wasn't representing the company in that context. And no, her putting that she works for Anet in her bio doesn't mean that. A lot of people, especially in her field do that for networking. She didn't mention Anet once in her tweets. She just wanted to talk about game design. > > > > > > > > > > Now I'm not going to disagree with you that she was uncivil in her response. But to connect it to her career is unfair. Where do you draw the line? How many people here should be fired for the comments they made? > > > > > > > > Yes, she was representing the company. If I work for a coffee shop and I wear a t-shirt with the words "proud employee of [coffee shop]" on it, even though I'm not at work, I'm representing that company and publicly proclaiming the fact that I'm an employee there. Price was publicly proclaiming she was an employee of ArenaNet. She was representing the company. > > > > > > Is this your opinion? Or is there something to back it up? You are basically arguing that people are entirely subservient to their employers. > > > > If said people are: > > > > - talking about work related things > > - have made very clear whom they work for (via clothing for example) > > - have used said work relation to garner credibility > > - to fans of said company > > - have their company in their twitter bio > > - have not set their profile to private > > > > Then yes, they are representing the company even in their free time and on their social media account. > > This is what I'm trying to get at here. Where is the line? I expect us each to have our own opinions about that. But overall, we should consider something that actually works in the real world. Something that protects people from being unfair abused. I don't necessarily mean insults. I mean people being genuinely hurt in such a way that it affects their lives and livelihoods. If you feel those guidelines do that, then that's fine for you. However, I think that's a lot to ask of an employee, who just wants to do the job they love well. The line is drawn by the individual. And it is very easy to draw, by being dismissive. Look: "I apreciate you want you help, but I believe this is not the right place for the discussion you want to start. Come join us on the next AMA." If anyone insists past that, it's time to report and then mute or block and contact the company for help against harassment. If the company can't help or the issue is too grave, it's also time to contact the authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > "showing a feeling of patronizing superiority." > > > > Intent doesn't necessarily apply. I mentioned much earlier that there are far better ways he could have gotten his point across. In fact, had he, he wouldn't have had to couch it in flattery. "I like what you said but...." is a warning sign. > > You think anything he posted came from a position of superiority ? > That's likely your first problem right there. To the vast majority of people it looked nothing like him being superior. Having discourse with someone sure, superior....gonna have to prove that one and you'll be hard pressed to do so. > > Also, as stated your revisionist history is bad because you outright lie about the events in question demeaning Derior's several apologies to "sorry, not sorry". You're really quick to impugn his character, and it's pretty kitten sad that you'd stick up for someone like JP after all the stuff she's spewed but debase someone who was innocent. No, I think his post showed a feeling of superiority. I'm only referring to his initial apology. I haven't seen the others. I'm focusing this discussion on the proximate cause of injury, where neither party behaved as well as they could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singularity.2109 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > Fine, there was not not condescension. :) It's quite easy to prove that "not condescension" was there. Deroir used a letter "Y" in his reply. It's not condescension. It was there. If we refrain from unnecessary sophistry, your statement ("his words were condescending") is a blame. Blames must be supported by proper arguments because of presumption of innocence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > I'm only referring to his initial apology. I haven't seen the others. I'm focusing this discussion on the proximate cause of injury, where neither party behaved as well as they could. So instead of having a fully informed perspective of the situation and discussing it you want to minimize everything and skew it to a point that it suits you ? Yeah, i'm good this is the part where i leave the train and stop. There's no point anymore because you are intentionally missing the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"wayward.4792" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Singularity.2109" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > Fine, there was not not condescension. :) > > It's quite easy to prove that "not condescension" was there. Deroir used a letter "Y" in his reply. It's not condescension. It was there. > > If we refrain from unnecessary sophistry, your statement ("his words were condescending") is a blame. Blames must be supported by proper arguments because of presumption of innocence. OK, go back to all my previous posts and refute them individually. You are now claiming that they are all wrong. The burden of proof is on you. I've made the best case I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > I'm only referring to his initial apology. I haven't seen the others. I'm focusing this discussion on the proximate cause of injury, where neither party behaved as well as they could. > > So instead of having a fully informed perspective of the situation and discussing it you want to minimize everything and skew it to a point that it suits you ? > Yeah, i'm good this is the part where i leave the train and stop. There's no point anymore because you are intentionally missing the facts. Not really sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that his videos someone changed how he responded initially to JP and thus somehow retroactively affected her behavior? Or are you just interested in scoring points? If that's the case. You can have them. I just want a conversation about the topic where I can share my side and hear other sides and decide whether my opinion should change or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > I agree that Anet has done themselves a disservice by not better controlling the narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Singularity.2109" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > Fine, there was not not condescension. :) > > > > It's quite easy to prove that "not condescension" was there. Deroir used a letter "Y" in his reply. It's not condescension. It was there. > > > > If we refrain from unnecessary sophistry, your statement ("his words were condescending") is a blame. Blames must be supported by proper arguments because of presumption of innocence. > > OK, go back to all my previous posts and refute them individually. You are now claiming that they are all wrong. The burden of proof is on you. I've made the best case I can. Usually the burden of proof lies with the one making the assertion, not with the one you fail to convince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayward.4792 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud.5067 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 D uses the modifiers: Slightly - with regards to his disagreement Seemingly - with regards to his comprehension of JP's text Both, in English, are not modifies one would associate with assertion or establishing superiority. Quite the opposite. We use them when we want to ...slighty.. disagree with someone and if, seemingly, there might be a misunderstanding. Certainly not condescending. I would be interested in reading a parsing of D's text that is counter to mine. Perhaps then we can understand why some consider it 'condescending'. Folks, you can even mansplain to me. I can take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > I'm only referring to his initial apology. I haven't seen the others. I'm focusing this discussion on the proximate cause of injury, where neither party behaved as well as they could. > > > > So instead of having a fully informed perspective of the situation and discussing it you want to minimize everything and skew it to a point that it suits you ? > > Yeah, i'm good this is the part where i leave the train and stop. There's no point anymore because you are intentionally missing the facts. > > Not really sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that his videos someone changed how he responded initially to JP and thus somehow retroactively affected her behavior? > > Or are you just interested in scoring points? If that's the case. You can have them. I just want a conversation about the topic where I can share my side and hear other sides and decide whether my opinion should change or not. I'm only interested in having discourse with people who have informed themselves. As you stated you've intentionally shrunk your scope to spin-doctor the entire conversation to be how Derior is condescending and a sexist mansplainer and in no way acknowledge that JP is responsible for her actions and thus consequence. So as far as further discourse with you on the subject i've come to terms that it cannot continue because you refuse to take in all the actions that unfolded and instead are narrowing the scope to fit your criteria. It's not worth my time to continue because you're not willing to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singularity.2109 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > OK, go back to all my previous posts and refute them individually. You are now claiming that they are all wrong. The burden of proof is on you. I've made the best case I can. Actually I can't find a single one which would have any kind of logical proof of your point, hence they can't be refuted by definition. If there were proof, I might accept it, so honestly I was expecting you to provide some. If you refer to your posts, they are (at least since page #51) not proving your point, they are merely insisting on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > I'm only referring to his initial apology. I haven't seen the others. I'm focusing this discussion on the proximate cause of injury, where neither party behaved as well as they could. > > > > > > So instead of having a fully informed perspective of the situation and discussing it you want to minimize everything and skew it to a point that it suits you ? > > > Yeah, i'm good this is the part where i leave the train and stop. There's no point anymore because you are intentionally missing the facts. > > > > Not really sure what you are talking about. Are you saying that his videos someone changed how he responded initially to JP and thus somehow retroactively affected her behavior? > > > > Or are you just interested in scoring points? If that's the case. You can have them. I just want a conversation about the topic where I can share my side and hear other sides and decide whether my opinion should change or not. > > I'm only interested in having discourse with people who have informed themselves. As you stated you've intentionally shrunk your scope to spin-doctor the entire conversation to be how Derior is condescending and a sexist mansplainer and in no way acknowledge that JP is responsible for her actions and thus consequence. > > So as far as further discourse with you on the subject i've come to terms that it cannot continue because you refuse to take in all the actions that unfolded and instead are narrowing the scope to fit your criteria. It's not worth my time to continue because you're not willing to listen. What in the video disproved what I said about the posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"wayward.4792" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. Alright. And as a hardcore player of that game playing with people even more hardcore than me, who is part of a WvW guild led by two women, I haven't heard a single voice towards defending Jessica Price. There were voices defending Peter Fries. Though. The difference in my opinion? They actually got their facts from the source, not from one sided medias (for some of them, insanely biased). If it's a battle of numbers, also pay close attention to the comments on said articles. Unless you want to dig into the "gator" ridiculous narrative and accusing everyone here of being alt-right, there's a deeper issue here that needs to be discussed and solved. -Maybe- there is progress to make, maybe game devs have a point to make, but in ANY case, they will not make it by siding with someone whose whole twitter is full of hatred. Pick your fights to win the war, if I was being hyperbolic. At this point I really wish Anet would release a statement with their side of the story, as there are many important factors that we don't know off. Mainly was she given the choice to apologize or not. This to me is determinant. PS: (I'm a dev also, but not from Seattle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOrlyFactor.8341 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Probably off-topic but this video is relevant to this thread and the overall issue as it pertains to anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud.5067 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said: > Probably off-topic but this video is relevant to this thread and the overall issue as it pertains to anger. > **THIS VIDEO MADE ME ANGRY** **10/10 WOULD ANGRY AGAIN** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 You know, as an aside, I just have to get this out there.... Given the incredibly low, low bar JP has for what constitutes harassment, you are going to have to forgive me for being skeptical over whether she actually faced any actual harassment in her life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayward.4792 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. I have not always been as now: The fever'd diadem on my brow I claim'd and won usurpingly- ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordhelmos.7623 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Dengar.1785" said: > You know, as an aside, I just have to get this out there.... > > > Given the incredibly low, low bar JP has for what constitutes harassment, you are going to have to forgive me for being skeptical over whether she actually faced any actual harassment in her life. I explain this and did research into her history, my post above has some... profound information about her demeanor. I recommend reading it. It has so much historical information and accurately explains how we got here. It would be a shame to see it get buried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"wayward.4792" said: > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. > > I have not always been as now: > The fever'd diadem on my brow > I claim'd and won usurpingly- > > ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. Oh I forgot to say... yeah I'm a dev, And I have also no twitter account. I don't trust myself to face criticism correctly. But again... that's why I refuse to use a facebook/twitter account :). I value my company that much, it's like a family, and I wouldn't want to cause trouble to my family by burning out someday (which already happened internally once ~) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayward.4792 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > @"wayward.4792" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > > Because what you're saying is illogical. > > > > > > > > > You claim he meant no offense here, but in several other post you go on to say he was condescending. That is an oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not, it just requires one to understand that "intent" and "impact" are different things. A person can intend no offense and still cause it. This is about as far from an oxymoron as it's possible to get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, exactly. But the intent should matter more than the initial impact down the line, right? > > > > > > > Aka... once you know you've judged someone wrong... you don't make a situation worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think the impact for anet was to have their fans be called asshats, not pretending to like you here, etc? > > > > > > > Why is the reaction of a community so wrong, then? Maybe she meant no offense (bs lol) but still caused it? > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually don't believe intent matters more than impact, particularly with regard to marginalized people, but getting into kyriarchy 101 with gamers is also extremely low on my list of priorities. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's not many people who will contest that Price probably was out of line. I think her initial reaction was understandable given context, especially considering the sheer volume of harassment she's gotten since literally the day her hiring was announced. And I think she probably should've just walked away from the thread after that. However, summary dismissal from the company over a twitter spat that was - again - routine as hell? Terrible look. A social media policy justifying it is also a terrible social media policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > And something we should be worried about here, if we care about the future of the game, is that it's a terrible look _to employees and prospective employees of ArenaNet_. A company which is already known for having lower pay, higher demands, and a more difficult to deal with CEO than most of its contemporaries around Seattle. > > > > > > > > > > The impact does matter, so you should understand why this story impacts ArenaNet. > > > > > That the community was too harsh or not at this point is meaningless, there's damage done. ArenaNet loses whatever they do. > > > > > I would bet that if she had retracted her words (not the first message, I agree that it was a bit harsh but not worthy of trouble, but everything that came after was), she wouldn't have been fired. The unwillingness to recognize a mistake is really the problem when you're trying to be professional. > > > > > Even if you consider your twitter is private (which it is not), that's still a pretty weak line of defense when your whole company is being assaulted. If you're in the industry for that long I'm sorry, but you have to know better than this. > > > > > > > > > > I do however agree with your last point. I do worry about the future of the game. I would think that many at Anet wanted to defend Jessica Price like Peter Fries did. I have a very hard time feeling someone should be faulted for defending a colleague, even if they're in the wrong. But we don't know the whole story. > > > > > You can't blame it all on Anet, it's a very difficult decision. Sometimes there's no easy solution and it goes down to looking at the lobbies in place: The players, the (radical) feminists, and your employees. > > > > > We know what the players (in majority) think of this, we know what the radical feminists want, we don't know who the employees stand for right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't know what the majority of players think of this, because the forums are a really poor place to analyze majority viewpoints, but fine. :) It's absolutely true that gamers, in general, are why game development is one of the worst jobs in the world. > > > > > > > > I can't give you a full poll of ArenaNet's 320ish employees. I can tell you that I literally run a D&D game with two current and one former employee, and I'm in a Spire game with a different one. I can tell you that the pulse there is overwhelmingly negative about the firings. I can tell you that it is not being looked well upon by game devs at other studios in Seattle. > > > > > > > > I can tell you these things because this is, by and large, the community I exist in in my day to day life, as a person in Seattle whose friends overwhelmingly work in game dev, software, and writing. > > > > > > Have you ever considered, you know, not being so antagonistic to literally everybody who identifies as a gamer? Maybe people would be a little nicer to you. > > > > I have not always been as now: > > The fever'd diadem on my brow > > I claim'd and won usurpingly- > > > > ...gamers are why I don't work in games, full stop. I suppose I could broaden it up to "fans", rather than just gamers, because fan culture is also pretty toxic. Gamers have a particularly colorful history of harassment mobs and reactionary anger, though. > > Oh I forgot to say... > yeah I'm a dev, And I have also no twitter account. I don't trust myself to face criticism correctly. > But again... that's why I refuse to use a facebook/twitter account :). > > I value my company that much, it's like a family, and I wouldn't want to cause trouble to my family by burning out someday (which already happened internally once ~) Personally, I don't believe you should have to fear facing criticism correctly on a twitter or facebook account? But yeah, do what you gotta to keep yourself invested and valued. It's a real rough business. I never doubt that people who are in it are in it out of love for the work, because I can't see any other reason to deal with the other parts of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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