Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"thruine.8510" said: > I was wrong about this community when I told a poster it wasn't toxic a few weeks ago. It may be attracting unwanted toxicity from the outside now but it was always rotten to the core. It just needed a little push to show it. That its just as vindictive and destructive. You do realize your comment is more "toxic" than most comments we've seen here? How arrogant it is to condemn a whole community over a disagreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, for the people who defend Price, please explain this to me: why are her actions acceptable? Why is what she said appropriate? Why is celebrating the death of a well-known streamer okay? Why is cursing someone out with no provocation a good thing to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Confronting sexism" isn't a valid excuse here. As Saelenthi pointed out, tone is infamously difficult to discern on the internet. Where is the sexism in Deroir's post? And EVEN IF THERE WAS, Price is an employee at a company, PUBLICLY REPRESENTING that company. It is her JOB to be one of the public faces of that company, to be professional and polite, because she does not represent herself, she represents the company. Privately - to a friend on the phone or in person or whatever - she's free to complain all she wants! But NOT in a public space, and NOT while she is representing a company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tone is difficult to discern, but discern it you must...otherwise all written words would be toneless, and there would be no reason to read or write novels, in which you often have to discern the tone of the author...would be the same in this case, and a lot of use determined that the tone of, at least for me, the last tweet from Deroir, was condescending. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, she's not in PR, she's in Narrative, if she was in PR then it would be her job to one of the public faces of the company, but seeing as she worked in Narrative and not PR, it shouldn't be, not everyone is cutout to do PR work, which is why you have people that specialize in PR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears to me that a lot of people want their speech controlled by who they work for when that speech is in a public space...it reminds how we've taken a complete 180 from the original Greeks, those people that had specific corners where someone could stand up and say anything they wanted...do any of you remember that from Greek history, of course it also started to turn away from being completely free public speech during those same times...so we've been doing this to each other for eons now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don’t want to control speech, we just want people to show some respect to their fellow human beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This, exactly. I'm all for free speech. People have fought and died in wars for that precious freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also all for professional courtesy, responsibility, and self control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying that not everyone is cut out for PR work is basically giving an excuse to Price's words. "Well, she's not in PR, so how could she have been expected to behave civilly?" Because she's representing a company. Because her twitter account is not private. Because as a representative of that company, she has a responsibility to act professionally. Because she's a human being and should therefore realize that flying off the handle to a politely dissenting opinion, just because of some *perceived* insult or agenda, is *probably* an overreaction to the extreme. Freedom of speech also means that you take responsibility for your words. Deroir did. Price did not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Price wasn't representing the company in that context. And no, her putting that she works for Anet in her bio doesn't mean that. A lot of people, especially in her field do that for networking. She didn't mention Anet once in her tweets. She just wanted to talk about game design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I'm not going to disagree with you that she was uncivil in her response. But to connect it to her career is unfair. Where do you draw the line? How many people here should be fired for the comments they made? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, she was representing the company. If I work for a coffee shop and I wear a t-shirt with the words "proud employee of [coffee shop]" on it, even though I'm not at work, I'm representing that company and publicly proclaiming the fact that I'm an employee there. Price was publicly proclaiming she was an employee of ArenaNet. She was representing the company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this your opinion? Or is there something to back it up? You are basically arguing that people are entirely subservient to their employers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If said people are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - talking about work related things > > > > > > > > - have made very clear whom they work for (via clothing for example) > > > > > > > > - have used said work relation to garner credibility > > > > > > > > - to fans of said company > > > > > > > > - have their company in their twitter bio > > > > > > > > - have not set their profile to private > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then yes, they are representing the company even in their free time and on their social media account. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm trying to get at here. Where is the line? I expect us each to have our own opinions about that. But overall, we should consider something that actually works in the real world. Something that protects people from being unfair abused. I don't necessarily mean insults. I mean people being genuinely hurt in such a way that it affects their lives and livelihoods. If you feel those guidelines do that, then that's fine for you. However, I think that's a lot to ask of an employee, who just wants to do the job they love well. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's almost like none of us had a job here... > > > > > > I work in IT too, and I use an alias to express free speech. That's the line. Public figure = don't insult people. Pretty much like IRL actually. > > > > > > > > > > > > And JP has the same problem you're having right now. Everyone is working hard to demonstrate there was absolutely no ill intend in the initial message. Nobody is even denying that yes it might have been uncalled for. But what do you do? You refuse to even considerate the fact there's no ill intent, you refuse to acknowledge it, and instead you double down by pulling the gender card. > > > > > > And just like JP, you won't ever apologize for making a mistake. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is while you, as a anonymous user don't have to apologize, she as a public figure, is the first thing she should have done after realizing this specific case wasn't sexist at all, instead of doubling down. > > > > > > Burn out happens, Women do get some snarky comments from time to time and it IS absolutely disgusting, but just like everyone they can also be unfair. So instead of being stubborn and calling all the evils of the world on a mistake, just own that mistake. It's what it takes to be professional and it's something all women and men are subject to. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know I can't prove it now, but trust me if there had been a single sign acknowledging a mistake (not even entering the debate, but just saying "I've had a bad day, sorry if that came out rude" I would have been on your side against all kinds of extreme right you think surround her. The fact is that to this day, she still hasn't. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I've already stated that I don't believe that Deroir intended to offend Jessica. Not sure why you are so hung up on me. I'm just trying to explain what I believe. > > > > > > > > Because you spent quite a few pages sticking on the "mansplain" argument, and calling Deroir condescending? > > > > I'm glad if you changed your mind though, debating about what are the limits of social medias is indeed more important the fantasies. > > > > > > Oh, I still believe he was mansplaining, which is condescending. Again, I just don't believe that he realized he was doing that. JP saw it, and flipped out. It could have easily been resolved by the two of them, but both choose to dig in. JP for going beyond her initial post on it. And Deroir for his "Sorry, not sorry" apology. > > > > You can believe it, it doesn't make it true. You're allowed to be sexist it's not yet illegal. > > > > Deroir gave up after his initial response. To me, the "intent" I see is someone disillusioned and shocked by the rude answer of the dev. To you it's sorry not sorry, oh well. > > Doesn't change the fact that the gender card was pulled after, and the guy stopped before that. > > You know, if I really wanted to feed this non sense, I could just as well said that literally everything she said after her initial post was womansplaining. Her tone is actually condescending to me, and I'm pretty sure the intent is also to be that way. > > But yeah, I'd rather believe that it's that person, not her gender, that makes her condescending. Womansplaining isn't a thing just like his mansplaining is BS. > > So I found this definition, and it wasn't on wikipedia or urban dictionary(which is the only place I find womansplain): > man·splain > manˈsplān/Submit > verbinformal > gerund or present participle: mansplaining > (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing. > "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" > Now tell us again how mansplaining isn't a thing? All I did was do a simple Google search for both terms, and it appears that it was added to Merriam-Webster just this past March, which now makes it a legitimate thing. > > Oh, and in case anyone hasn't seen this article yet, just read it, it includes a full response from MO and more anecdotes from JP: https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired I don't understand in which world did you think that pulling up a dictionary was a strong argument... Also, this definition (which is necessarily a thing, since it's on the dictionary, right?) doesn't say "a man talking to a woman is mansplanning". Thanksfuly we're not there yet. And if you pay close attention, I specifically said "His mansplaining is BS" and not "Mansplaining" is BS. Most people do (and did) recognize that there's still work to be done in that aspect. Sadly, with this case it's more 2 steps back than 1 step ahead. The problem I see with this definition, and the lack of official equivalence to the same effect being applied for the opposite gender, is that one, it's (actually) sexist by nature. It's assuming that women can't talk down to men and be condescending. Which I -hope- you will agree with me isn't true. And two, its interpretation is vague and causes issues like the one we have currently. Some people like to pretend someone asking feedbacks in a polite manner was just mansplanning, while some other are frankly annoyed that language is becoming a minefield to the point where you can't even talk anymore without people assuming the worst intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briolase.7306 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I've uninstalled. I know none of you care and will probably attack me for my disagreement. This entire thread and its contents are the reason I've left the game. I no longer feel welcome, as a woman, and as a person who disagrees with the ravening horde. I don't agree with Mike O'Brien's hasty actions in firing JP and PF, but I understand that he's human, that he might have panicked in the face of internet outrage. His statement here was a non-statement, and his statement to polygon wasn't much better. Whether or not his actions were a direct reaction to the outrage or not, he should have known that his actions would embolden the worst of the internet. It has divided the community, it has turned this community into a place where I no longer feel comfortable. The values portrayed in game - the inclusion of women, people of color, the lgbt community, and the disabled - seems to not be reflected behind the scenes. It is disheartening and depressing. This thread is full of people crowing with glee over two people whose careers have been derailed, their lives upended. Anyone who disagrees with the mob is shouted down, accused of "siding with bullies" or of having political motives, or even of not being a part of the community. I've been playing since beta. I love this game. GW2 is my therapy for a stressful life and an anxiety disorder. But I don't feel welcome anymore. I suppose I should not be surprised by the attitudes expressed by so many players, but I always held GW2's community to higher standards. I should have known all this ugliness was lurking beneath the surface just waiting to be unleashed by an event such as this. Yes yes, I know, I'm the toxic one for daring to disagree with this morbid celebration. Yes yes, I know, you're glad I'm leaving. And no, you can't have my stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > Yeah, nor does it counter anything Jessica had said. It sounds very hastily CYA'd. I'm hearing protecting employees, but not seeing it. Oh well. I don't think the statement was suggesting that they were committing to protect employees from dumpster fires that those employees themselves started. It's just recommending, per corporate/bureaucratic norms, that employees go By The Book and get the protections associated with Following Procedure, rather than rolling out vigilante-style and having to be punished when they inevitably brutalize a suspicious but innocent person. In truth, ArenaNet does have some tools at its disposal for dealing with harassment aimed at developers -- banning forum members and players who violate TOS, terminating business relationships, and putting their weight and HR expertise behind formal complaints with third parties like Twitter. We're not likely to know whether they've ever been dusted off, though, for any number of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dengar.1785" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, for the people who defend Price, please explain this to me: why are her actions acceptable? Why is what she said appropriate? Why is celebrating the death of a well-known streamer okay? Why is cursing someone out with no provocation a good thing to do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Confronting sexism" isn't a valid excuse here. As Saelenthi pointed out, tone is infamously difficult to discern on the internet. Where is the sexism in Deroir's post? And EVEN IF THERE WAS, Price is an employee at a company, PUBLICLY REPRESENTING that company. It is her JOB to be one of the public faces of that company, to be professional and polite, because she does not represent herself, she represents the company. Privately - to a friend on the phone or in person or whatever - she's free to complain all she wants! But NOT in a public space, and NOT while she is representing a company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tone is difficult to discern, but discern it you must...otherwise all written words would be toneless, and there would be no reason to read or write novels, in which you often have to discern the tone of the author...would be the same in this case, and a lot of use determined that the tone of, at least for me, the last tweet from Deroir, was condescending. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, she's not in PR, she's in Narrative, if she was in PR then it would be her job to one of the public faces of the company, but seeing as she worked in Narrative and not PR, it shouldn't be, not everyone is cutout to do PR work, which is why you have people that specialize in PR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears to me that a lot of people want their speech controlled by who they work for when that speech is in a public space...it reminds how we've taken a complete 180 from the original Greeks, those people that had specific corners where someone could stand up and say anything they wanted...do any of you remember that from Greek history, of course it also started to turn away from being completely free public speech during those same times...so we've been doing this to each other for eons now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don’t want to control speech, we just want people to show some respect to their fellow human beings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This, exactly. I'm all for free speech. People have fought and died in wars for that precious freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also all for professional courtesy, responsibility, and self control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying that not everyone is cut out for PR work is basically giving an excuse to Price's words. "Well, she's not in PR, so how could she have been expected to behave civilly?" Because she's representing a company. Because her twitter account is not private. Because as a representative of that company, she has a responsibility to act professionally. Because she's a human being and should therefore realize that flying off the handle to a politely dissenting opinion, just because of some *perceived* insult or agenda, is *probably* an overreaction to the extreme. Freedom of speech also means that you take responsibility for your words. Deroir did. Price did not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Price wasn't representing the company in that context. And no, her putting that she works for Anet in her bio doesn't mean that. A lot of people, especially in her field do that for networking. She didn't mention Anet once in her tweets. She just wanted to talk about game design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I'm not going to disagree with you that she was uncivil in her response. But to connect it to her career is unfair. Where do you draw the line? How many people here should be fired for the comments they made? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, she was representing the company. If I work for a coffee shop and I wear a t-shirt with the words "proud employee of [coffee shop]" on it, even though I'm not at work, I'm representing that company and publicly proclaiming the fact that I'm an employee there. Price was publicly proclaiming she was an employee of ArenaNet. She was representing the company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this your opinion? Or is there something to back it up? You are basically arguing that people are entirely subservient to their employers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If said people are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - talking about work related things > > > > > > > > > - have made very clear whom they work for (via clothing for example) > > > > > > > > > - have used said work relation to garner credibility > > > > > > > > > - to fans of said company > > > > > > > > > - have their company in their twitter bio > > > > > > > > > - have not set their profile to private > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then yes, they are representing the company even in their free time and on their social media account. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm trying to get at here. Where is the line? I expect us each to have our own opinions about that. But overall, we should consider something that actually works in the real world. Something that protects people from being unfair abused. I don't necessarily mean insults. I mean people being genuinely hurt in such a way that it affects their lives and livelihoods. If you feel those guidelines do that, then that's fine for you. However, I think that's a lot to ask of an employee, who just wants to do the job they love well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's almost like none of us had a job here... > > > > > > > I work in IT too, and I use an alias to express free speech. That's the line. Public figure = don't insult people. Pretty much like IRL actually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And JP has the same problem you're having right now. Everyone is working hard to demonstrate there was absolutely no ill intend in the initial message. Nobody is even denying that yes it might have been uncalled for. But what do you do? You refuse to even considerate the fact there's no ill intent, you refuse to acknowledge it, and instead you double down by pulling the gender card. > > > > > > > And just like JP, you won't ever apologize for making a mistake. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is while you, as a anonymous user don't have to apologize, she as a public figure, is the first thing she should have done after realizing this specific case wasn't sexist at all, instead of doubling down. > > > > > > > Burn out happens, Women do get some snarky comments from time to time and it IS absolutely disgusting, but just like everyone they can also be unfair. So instead of being stubborn and calling all the evils of the world on a mistake, just own that mistake. It's what it takes to be professional and it's something all women and men are subject to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know I can't prove it now, but trust me if there had been a single sign acknowledging a mistake (not even entering the debate, but just saying "I've had a bad day, sorry if that came out rude" I would have been on your side against all kinds of extreme right you think surround her. The fact is that to this day, she still hasn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I've already stated that I don't believe that Deroir intended to offend Jessica. Not sure why you are so hung up on me. I'm just trying to explain what I believe. > > > > > > > > > > Because you spent quite a few pages sticking on the "mansplain" argument, and calling Deroir condescending? > > > > > I'm glad if you changed your mind though, debating about what are the limits of social medias is indeed more important the fantasies. > > > > > > > > Oh, I still believe he was mansplaining, which is condescending. Again, I just don't believe that he realized he was doing that. JP saw it, and flipped out. It could have easily been resolved by the two of them, but both choose to dig in. JP for going beyond her initial post on it. And Deroir for his "Sorry, not sorry" apology. > > > > > > You can believe it, it doesn't make it true. You're allowed to be sexist it's not yet illegal. > > > > > > Deroir gave up after his initial response. To me, the "intent" I see is someone disillusioned and shocked by the rude answer of the dev. To you it's sorry not sorry, oh well. > > > Doesn't change the fact that the gender card was pulled after, and the guy stopped before that. > > > You know, if I really wanted to feed this non sense, I could just as well said that literally everything she said after her initial post was womansplaining. Her tone is actually condescending to me, and I'm pretty sure the intent is also to be that way. > > > But yeah, I'd rather believe that it's that person, not her gender, that makes her condescending. Womansplaining isn't a thing just like his mansplaining is BS. > > > > So I found this definition, and it wasn't on wikipedia or urban dictionary(which is the only place I find womansplain): > > man·splain > > manˈsplān/Submit > > verbinformal > > gerund or present participle: mansplaining > > (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing. > > "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" > > Now tell us again how mansplaining isn't a thing? All I did was do a simple Google search for both terms, and it appears that it was added to Merriam-Webster just this past March, which now makes it a legitimate thing. > > > > Oh, and in case anyone hasn't seen this article yet, just read it, it includes a full response from MO and more anecdotes from JP: https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired > > I don't understand in which world did you think that pulling up a dictionary was a strong argument... > Also, this definition (which is necessarily a thing, since it's on the dictionary, right?) doesn't say "a man talking to a woman is mansplanning". Thanksfuly we're not there yet. > And if you pay close attention, I specifically said "His mansplaining is BS" and not "Mansplaining" is BS. Most people do (and did) recognize that there's still work to be done in that aspect. Sadly, with this case it's more 2 steps back than 1 step ahead. > > The problem I see with this definition, and the lack of official equivalence to the same effect being applied for the opposite gender, is that one, it's (actually) sexist by nature. It's assuming that women can't talk down to men and be condescending. Which I -hope- you will agree with me isn't true. > And two, its interpretation is vague and causes issues like the one we have currently. Some people like to pretend someone asking feedbacks in a polite manner was just mansplanning, while some other are frankly annoyed that language is becoming a minefield to the point where you can't even talk anymore without people assuming the worst intent. The definition, from Merriam-Webster definition, which is a little more detailed is this: Mansplaining is, at its core, a very specific thing. It's what occurs when a man talks condescendingly to someone (especially a woman) about something he has incomplete knowledge of, with the mistaken assumption that he knows more about it than the person he's talking to does. That sounds like Deroir could have been saying, but I'm not going to say it was, it could have been interpreted that way though by a female developer who has to deal with it 1000 times more than a male developer does. I won't disagree that women can't talk down to men and be condescending as well, however, and I think this is part of the problem, and we do know it's biological, since they've done neurological studies of the brain and we are wired differently. Men just ignore the condescending talk from women, because that's how we are(not all of us, but a lot), where as women perceive it as a slight on their abilities(again, not all, but some) and that the man knows best, at least that is my perception. Also, you're correct about the whole Political Correctness thing, it's practically the only thing I like about Trump, he hates PC culture, as do I and I refuse to practice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > You do realize your comment is more "toxic" than most comments we've seen here? > How arrogant it is to condemn a whole community over a disagreement. I reserve the right to condemn any who condemn me. I'm sorry you feel hurt by what I've said but I've seen some very bad things said about a human being who needs help desperately and a developer who's been with the game longer than anyone here completely forgotten or tossed into the same trash heap as her. Not to mention ignoring two previous developers who alluded to the executives of this company putting undue pressures on developers of what type is unknown. Both of who are women. Something stinks here and removing Jessica Price hasn't freshened the air. Its still unexplained how she was even hired or remained employed given her history. In both cases, the history of the two has been ignored. Is the undue pressure being forced to engage on Twitter during off hours? Is it a case of get out there and smile as they hit you? Why do both developers refer to their accounts as private if there was clear internet standards in place? Why was JP so defensive about what is and isn't her space? Like she's being forced to do something at work she's refusing to do in her own space? I've had to explain myself more than once here to posters who never acknowledge when I have but just move on to someone else to attempt to bully them into silence instead. We're all allowed to have opposing opinions without being policed for having them. I feel sorry for Jessica but not because she lost her job but I'm more sympathetic to Peter. He's unfairly judged and unfairly dismissed. And the person that's done this is someone he's known a long time and still can't even address why it was done as he has for JP. Its a bit annoying to see her getting all the attention when some of us have valid questions about PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Briolase.7306" said: > I've uninstalled. I know none of you care and will probably attack me for my disagreement. This entire thread and its contents are the reason I've left the game. I no longer feel welcome, as a woman, and as a person who disagrees with the ravening horde. I don't agree with Mike O'Brien's hasty actions in firing JP and PF, but I understand that he's human, that he might have panicked in the face of internet outrage. His statement here was a non-statement, and his statement to polygon wasn't much better. Whether or not his actions were a direct reaction to the outrage or not, he should have known that his actions would embolden the worst of the internet. It has divided the community, it has turned this community into a place where I no longer feel comfortable. The values portrayed in game - the inclusion of women, people of color, the lgbt community, and the disabled - seems to not be reflected behind the scenes. It is disheartening and depressing. > > This thread is full of people crowing with glee over two people whose careers have been derailed, their lives upended. Anyone who disagrees with the mob is shouted down, accused of "siding with bullies" or of having political motives, or even of not being a part of the community. I've been playing since beta. I love this game. GW2 is my therapy for a stressful life and an anxiety disorder. But I don't feel welcome anymore. > > I suppose I should not be surprised by the attitudes expressed by so many players, but I always held GW2's community to higher standards. I should have known all this ugliness was lurking beneath the surface just waiting to be unleashed by an event such as this. > > Yes yes, I know, I'm the toxic one for daring to disagree with this morbid celebration. Yes yes, I know, you're glad I'm leaving. And no, you can't have my stuff. Many women actually commented on this post and are part of that community that you're calling names now. People of color as well. Hell, I'm gonna do it and pull the LGBT card: I am myself gay and fully support Anet decision. We're all from different minorities, and we're still disagree, how does that fit into your narrative? As for this thread itself and reddit, as least it offers an alternative opinion, you already got the video game medias to provide you with their own bias. If you actually care about digging into some threads on reddit, you'll find some full of passion and love for Peter Fries for example, who got fired for picking the wrong fight. What is disheartening is seeing the world in pure black and white. Where the "mobs" becomes a definition that means "whatever other side I don't agree with". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadshow.9320 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > So I found this definition, and it wasn't on wikipedia or urban dictionary(which is the only place I find womansplain): > man·splain > manˈsplān/Submit > verbinformal > gerund or present participle: mansplaining > (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing. > "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" > Now tell us again how mansplaining isn't a thing? All I did was do a simple Google search for both terms, and it appears that it was added to Merriam-Webster just this past March, which now makes it a legitimate thing. > > Oh, and in case anyone hasn't seen this article yet, just read it, it includes a full response from MO and more anecdotes from JP: https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired Mansplaining isn't a thing. It's really simple: anyone can talk down to somebody else in a condescending or patronizing manner, no matter who that other person is. There's no inherent sex bias to the act. To call it "mansplaining" is a deliberate manipulation to further a misandrist agenda and permits someone to dismiss information without thinking about it. It is a lie. There is no mansplaining anymore than there is manbreathing, manwalking, or manlistening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"thruine.8510" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > You do realize your comment is more "toxic" than most comments we've seen here? > > How arrogant it is to condemn a whole community over a disagreement. > > I reserve the right to condemn any who condemn me. I'm sorry you feel hurt by what I've said but I've seen some very bad things said about a human being who needs help desperately and a developer who's been with the game longer than anyone here completely forgotten or tossed into the same trash heap as her. Not to mention ignoring two previous developers who alluded to the executives of this company putting undue pressures on developers of what type is unknown. Both of who are women. Something stinks here and removing Jessica Price hasn't freshened the air. Its still unexplained how she was even hired or remained employed given her history. In both cases, the history of the two has been ignored. Is the undue pressure being forced to engage on Twitter during off hours? Is it a case of get out there and smile as they hit you? Why do both developers refer to their accounts as private if there was clear internet standards in place? Why was JP so defensive about what is and isn't her space? Like she's being forced to do something at work she's refusing to do in her own space? I've had to explain myself more than once here to posters who never acknowledge when I have but just move on to someone else to attempt to bully them into silence instead. We're all allowed to have opposing opinions without being policed for having them. I feel sorry for Jessica but not because she lost her job but I'm more sympathetic to Peter. He's unfairly judged and unfairly dismissed. And the person that's done this is someone he's known a long time and still can't even address why it was done as he has for JP. Its a bit annoying to see her getting all the attention when some of us have valid questions about PF. I do not feel hurt by that. I'm merely pointing out that toxicity rarely comes from one side only. Example: You've seen some bad things said about Peter Fries. This is absolutely true that some tweets were truly awful. Now look at reddit, For every toxic idiot out there, there are 10 great people. Even Jessica Price said so. Yes, it was harsh for him. Some people even said that he was fired solemnly so that JP can't sue Anet for abusive firing, but I really hope that's not true. He genuinely seem like a guy who cared about his community. Not coming back to the "off hour" arguments, since all the arguments were already said. I do agree that there should probably be stricter guidelines in the first place. Although I'm pretty sure public facing was already part of the contract, maybe it needs to be more specific about guidelines on the social medias and leave a simple choice to the employees: Either you don't mention the company and you do whatever, or you do it, but then you're supposed to follow our company guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 The moral of the story: think before you tweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > So I found this definition, and it wasn't on wikipedia or urban dictionary(which is the only place I find womansplain): > > man·splain > > manˈsplān/Submit > > verbinformal > > gerund or present participle: mansplaining > > (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing. > > "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" > > Now tell us again how mansplaining isn't a thing? All I did was do a simple Google search for both terms, and it appears that it was added to Merriam-Webster just this past March, which now makes it a legitimate thing. > > > > Oh, and in case anyone hasn't seen this article yet, just read it, it includes a full response from MO and more anecdotes from JP: https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired > > Mansplaining isn't a thing. It's really simple: anyone can talk down to somebody else in a condescending or patronizing manner, no matter who that other person is. There's no inherent sex bias to the act. To call it "mansplaining" is a deliberate manipulation to further a misandrist agenda and permits someone to dismiss information without thinking about it. It is a lie. There is no mansplaining anymore than there is manbreathing, manwalking, or manlistening. I'm not saying it's necessarily a thing, all I'm saying is that now it's been given a definition and made part of our lexicon, just like other made up words have been in the past, and I do prefer the Merriam-Webster definition better: Mansplaining is, at its core, a very specific thing. It's what occurs when a man talks condescendingly to someone (especially a woman) about something he has incomplete knowledge of, with the mistaken assumption that he knows more about it than the person he's talking to does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > So I found this definition, and it wasn't on wikipedia or urban dictionary(which is the only place I find womansplain): > > > man·splain > > > manˈsplān/Submit > > > verbinformal > > > gerund or present participle: mansplaining > > > (of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing. > > > "I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife" > > > Now tell us again how mansplaining isn't a thing? All I did was do a simple Google search for both terms, and it appears that it was added to Merriam-Webster just this past March, which now makes it a legitimate thing. > > > > > > Oh, and in case anyone hasn't seen this article yet, just read it, it includes a full response from MO and more anecdotes from JP: https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired > > > > Mansplaining isn't a thing. It's really simple: anyone can talk down to somebody else in a condescending or patronizing manner, no matter who that other person is. There's no inherent sex bias to the act. To call it "mansplaining" is a deliberate manipulation to further a misandrist agenda and permits someone to dismiss information without thinking about it. It is a lie. There is no mansplaining anymore than there is manbreathing, manwalking, or manlistening. > > I'm not saying it's necessarily a thing, all I'm saying is that now it's been given a definition and made part of our lexicon, just like other made up words have been in the past, and I do prefer the Merriam-Webster definition better: > Mansplaining is, at its core, a very specific thing. It's what occurs when a man talks condescendingly to someone (especially a woman) about something he has incomplete knowledge of, with the mistaken assumption that he knows more about it than the person he's talking to does. We all know the connotations and uses of the term. Don't pretend that they don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyvern.7951 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Briolase.7306" said: > I've uninstalled. I know none of you care and will probably attack me for my disagreement. This entire thread and its contents are the reason I've left the game. I no longer feel welcome, as a woman, and as a person who disagrees with the ravening horde. I don't agree with Mike O'Brien's hasty actions in firing JP and PF, but I understand that he's human, that he might have panicked in the face of internet outrage. His statement here was a non-statement, and his statement to polygon wasn't much better. Whether or not his actions were a direct reaction to the outrage or not, he should have known that his actions would embolden the worst of the internet. It has divided the community, it has turned this community into a place where I no longer feel comfortable. The values portrayed in game - the inclusion of women, people of color, the lgbt community, and the disabled - seems to not be reflected behind the scenes. It is disheartening and depressing. > > This thread is full of people crowing with glee over two people whose careers have been derailed, their lives upended. Anyone who disagrees with the mob is shouted down, accused of "siding with bullies" or of having political motives, or even of not being a part of the community. I've been playing since beta. I love this game. GW2 is my therapy for a stressful life and an anxiety disorder. But I don't feel welcome anymore. > > I suppose I should not be surprised by the attitudes expressed by so many players, but I always held GW2's community to higher standards. I should have known all this ugliness was lurking beneath the surface just waiting to be unleashed by an event such as this. > > Yes yes, I know, I'm the toxic one for daring to disagree with this morbid celebration. Yes yes, I know, you're glad I'm leaving. And no, you can't have my stuff. I'm one of those women who agrees with letting JP go. I honestly believe this would have happened sooner or later given her track record. I don't think working on an mmo that relies so heavily on fan to dev communication was a good place for her. There are single player studios or positions where she wouldn't have to deal with players that may have been a better fit. I'm not a fan of people using sexism where it isn't valid. I definitely believe women deserve equal rights and that we face heavy sexism in several industries. The issue is every time we pull out the gender card where it isn't necessary, it only invalidates those problems. It's like crying wolf, eventually people are gonna stop taking us seriously. I have sympathy for those who lost their jobs, especially for Peter. He did wonderful work and has had so much influence in the GW2 universe. To dismiss all he's done for the game over a few drunk tweets would be asinine. But you really shouldn't let a few people you will probably never meet or see again dictate what you love. When this storm blows over, I doubt you'll see half of the people posting here or wherever ever again. At the end of the day, we can all learn to be better people from this. The players, Anet, JP, Peter, the journalists. I'm happy to see that at least for the time being, the front page of GW2 reddit is celebrating the devs we love. There's a thread about the Bens and Peter. Even a thread about how awesome Gaile, Rubi and Lyndsay are too! Three very awesome female devs we players are lucky to have. I have major social anxiety and suffer from a bit of depression myself. It may not mean much, but I care and I really hope you find a game you love just as much if you are letting go of GW2. (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendou.9620 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 This stupid conversation is so derailed with people that have no clue as to any facts to what actually happened. Assumptions here, wrongful translations there-- Can we please close this toxic thread, you should all trust Mike and his decision, he has never given us any reason to doubt him and takes pride in being part of our community. Everyone needs to take a step back and handle their own lives and butt out of the two employee's lives. If the internal affairs are more important to you than this game, then maybe you shouldn't be playing this game; no one on this forum has any right to tell a company how to handle their internal affairs, just like I have no right to go to your job and tell your boss to fire or not fire you. Your opinions do not matter, even as said by Mike, the decision was made before the community was in uproar. You all can cherry pick details to this whole situation, but he gave his reason for his judgement and wished them the best. These are not angels that were fired, they choose poorly, and sometimes that will bite you in the ass. Personally I would never make the same mistakes, but if I did I would deserve the same treatment. Let me ask you, the community, what do you think would have happened if they weren't fired? A PR disaster is what. Price already stated that she takes NOTHING back, nor would apologize, can't say the same for Peter. What if this type of situation led to the downfall of Arenanet from defamation? You think Price has the bank account to cover an entire company going under? We've all seen it before in one form or another, defamation destroying reputations forever. Just as Price's life and career may be important as a human being, she should in return also have been thoughful of her coworkers and their reputation being ruined from her comments to the community. How would you feel being attacked over social media because a coworker has a snappy mouth? Use your brain people, stop derailing this, I thought this was a community, this just makes me sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. Can you train someone who refuses to admit they’re wrong? So far JP hasn’t admitted the slightest amount of fault nor has she voluntarily apologized. In every interview she’s doubled down and put all fault on anyone but her. If that’s the sort of person she is then options are limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotsofnothing.7385 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > > > Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. > > Can you train someone who refuses to admit they’re wrong? So far JP hasn’t admitted the slightest amount of fault nor has she voluntarily apologized. In every interview she’s doubled down and put all fault on anyone but her. If that’s the sort of person she is then options are limited. If a some rando told me how to do my job I wouldn't apologize either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. What you're saying here is that customer and employee have the same level of responsibility, which is simply not true. We can all be outraged at a comment or action and voice that opinion. We might even lash out at the company. But the company and its employees simply cannot do that. You do not backtalk to your customers because that way you're going to lose them. If they are angry at you, good. Swallow it and work on getting better. You will lose a few on the way. Yelling at them and making the thing 100 times larger than it is is just going to lose you 100 times more customers. So again. You're saying we should be upset that people on the same level as us say some horrible stuff (which many of us did but it's not like you care) and that it somehow dismisses us finding her behaviour despicable. JP had the agency in that situation and as such HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY to react in a manner that will not get her company in a bad light. We have absolutely zero responsibility for anything. We can talk shit about them all day and it's our god given right. They will need to stand there and smile and if they don't, it's their fault. Everybody has to deal with this stuff, it's not unfair it's an inconvenience. Like the upset mom that wants to talk to your manager because she only had 2 ice cubes instead of 3 and stuff like that. You just nod until she goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"lotsofnothing.7385" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > > > > > Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. > > > > Can you train someone who refuses to admit they’re wrong? So far JP hasn’t admitted the slightest amount of fault nor has she voluntarily apologized. In every interview she’s doubled down and put all fault on anyone but her. If that’s the sort of person she is then options are limited. > > If a some rando told me how to do my job I wouldn't apologize either Let's get rid of any form of debate in the world. After all, any sort of feedback on anything, bet it a tv show, a video game, a book, a haircut, is always gonna be a comment on someone's job from us mere mortal who know nothing and therefore have no opinion to give. Plus you know, he never told her how to do her job, nor was he a rando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"lotsofnothing.7385" said: > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > > > > > Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. > > > > Can you train someone who refuses to admit they’re wrong? So far JP hasn’t admitted the slightest amount of fault nor has she voluntarily apologized. In every interview she’s doubled down and put all fault on anyone but her. If that’s the sort of person she is then options are limited. > > If a some rando told me how to do my job I wouldn't apologize either Except for the fact he wasn’t a “rando” but an ANet partner and that he was asking a question on something he wanted (which I see all the time on the forums on things that have been ruled out by the devs, yet people still ask for them). As for not apologizing after insulting, making sexist remarks and cursing people.... If you read most major religions that’s the oposite of what they say people should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotsofnothing.7385 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"lotsofnothing.7385" said: > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > > > > > > > Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. > > > > > > Can you train someone who refuses to admit they’re wrong? So far JP hasn’t admitted the slightest amount of fault nor has she voluntarily apologized. In every interview she’s doubled down and put all fault on anyone but her. If that’s the sort of person she is then options are limited. > > > > If a some rando told me how to do my job I wouldn't apologize either > > Let's get rid of any form of debate in the world. After all, any sort of feedback on anything, bet it a tv show, a video game, a book, a haircut, is always gonna be a comment on someone's job from us mere mortal who know nothing and therefore have no opinion to give. > > Plus you know, he never told her how to do her job, nor was he a rando. "Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest)." ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"lotsofnothing.7385" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"lotsofnothing.7385" said: > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > > > > > > > > > Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. > > > > > > > > Can you train someone who refuses to admit they’re wrong? So far JP hasn’t admitted the slightest amount of fault nor has she voluntarily apologized. In every interview she’s doubled down and put all fault on anyone but her. If that’s the sort of person she is then options are limited. > > > > > > If a some rando told me how to do my job I wouldn't apologize either > > > > Let's get rid of any form of debate in the world. After all, any sort of feedback on anything, bet it a tv show, a video game, a book, a haircut, is always gonna be a comment on someone's job from us mere mortal who know nothing and therefore have no opinion to give. > > > > Plus you know, he never told her how to do her job, nor was he a rando. > > "Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest)." > > ok This attitude says that no one below someone in knowledge should ever question what is said or ask for what they want. That may do well for you but the motto I grew up with was “Question everything!” And yes that also goes for a dev posting her beliefs on the best way to write a narrative in an MMO. If we don’t question then we will not learn or challenge long held but incorrect beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.4180 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"Jukhy.2431" said: > Here's a fact based video explaining it very well: > > I agree that video does a great job at reviewing the events. Price's comments were uncalled for and out of line. I don't fault ArenaNet's reaction or decision, and am pretty disappointed with the way segments of the gaming media have misrepresented this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 > @"lotsofnothing.7385" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"lotsofnothing.7385" said: > > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said: > > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > > > Funny some ppl condemn the outrage of her comments but not their own outrage of the firing. Let me tell you what to be outrage about, if you are not outrage by the same things that outrages me I don't want to play with you. I don't even want to play this game if you play this game if you're not outrage by the same things I'm. Lol. The firings were warranted and I wasn't even outrage by her/his comments. You just don't treat customers the way she did whit out losing them. Unfortunately we won't know which is more damaging firing employees that treat customers badly or keeping them so that they can continue to treat customer badly. > > > > > > > > > > Or keep them and support them with proper training. Its not either or, MOB had options. > > > > > > > > Can you train someone who refuses to admit they’re wrong? So far JP hasn’t admitted the slightest amount of fault nor has she voluntarily apologized. In every interview she’s doubled down and put all fault on anyone but her. If that’s the sort of person she is then options are limited. > > > > > > If a some rando told me how to do my job I wouldn't apologize either > > > > Let's get rid of any form of debate in the world. After all, any sort of feedback on anything, bet it a tv show, a video game, a book, a haircut, is always gonna be a comment on someone's job from us mere mortal who know nothing and therefore have no opinion to give. > > > > Plus you know, he never told her how to do her job, nor was he a rando. > > "Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest)." > > ok Yeah, it's called opening a debate. Complicated notion in 2018. There used to be nothing wrong about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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