GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[BrotherBelial.3094]

> @"inubasiri.8745" said:

> > @"BrotherBelial.3094" said:

> > > @"inubasiri.8745" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said:

> > > > > > @"DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756" said:

> > > > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations, some of you have just had 2 actual people fired. I hope it was worth being offended on the internet. Sick age we're living in.

> > > > > > > > > > > > She was offended too. So was he. Because accountability is a sick age we live in. Amazing right?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah well if everyone was accountable for making others offended on the internet, we'd all be in jail now. But I guess in this case only the devs got the short straw. As I said, congratulations people (you know who you are), your outcry was heard by the mighty Mo, you don't need to be offended anymore.

> > > > > > > > > > Don't worry, the UK is working on that. lol

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Great so now you agree with me?

> > > > > > > > It's not a good idea for law to be punishing people based upon feelings. Because the law should be objective, not subjective. However in this case, we can look at objective and see clearly what was wrong.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But that's precisely the point. Was what they did illegal? If not why are they getting fired for it? Because it hurt someone's feelings which is why they made a reddit thread about it and other people went there and agreed with it. You have to self-censor yourself if you want to keep your job, then?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Illegal? I understand who you are replying to, and what they said, but the situation still had nothing to do with actual law. They were employees acting like kitten. More so Price since from what I saw of the other guy, crap was tame. I don't know if you know how businesses work, but normally you don't want employees attacking your fans/customers unprovoked. Also censor yourself? no. Just don't act like an kitten for no reason in this case. Unless the person is naturally an kitten, then yes, self-censor.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yeah but they weren't acting as employees. Remember those were their personal accounts. My point isn't that she wasn't acting noxious, my point is that it should have no bearing on her employment. And also if someone didn't put it on reddit, most people wouldn't be offended by it because they wouldn't have known about it. Because what is said between individuals should sometimes just stay between individuals.

> > > >

> > > > No.. sorry your incorrect imo.

> > > > When someone openly advertises their workplace publicly and then puts out material that is absolutely work related then by their own choice they are putting themselves and the company into the public eye.. by offering out her pro tip AMA she decided, no one else, to put herself on the clock.. what ensued was a lack of professionalism and an abhorrent attack on a respectful community member, a content partner and a person who less than 24hrs previous was calling this person a God, someone he admired for her work.

> > > > Simple fact is she let both herself down and the company in the way she acted and the things she decided to accuse the poster and similarly ANET of.. and continues to do so reading some of here journo interviews.. which hopefully no one in their right mind would take seriously knowing her history.

> > >

> > > As you may have admitted in the end, it's more about her than what she said, isn't it? No really, I've gotten to the point of feeling that her most dedicated haters are all about what she is or said before than really what she did now. But that aside, I can talk about my work in my free time, can't I? It didn't put her on clock, because she wasn't paid for it. Yes, she has acted noxiously, but tbh who cares? She's a prickly person, sure, but the only reason we're having this discussion is because someone popularized it. Otherwise I doubt her twitter followers would have cared (probably because they know her). You do realize that what you're saying is that nobody basically has free time, they're always the company employee, that nobody really has any privacy, because they have to keep representing. And I'm pretty sure this works for politicians, but why should it apply for ordinary people.

> > >

> > > Have some wisdom, please, this all can turn against all of us, eventually.

> >

> > I'm sure the 13k followers she has know her...….. Really what she said in those tweets was asking for people to talk. it's twitter, it's a public forum, there is no private on there unless you set it as so. You if you start to talk about your work publicly, and who you work for, you instantly represent that company, ask anyone in HR or PR, I know a guy who got sacked for slating the place he worked for on Facebook, he even had his store managers as his friends on Facebook.

> >

> > If you want your free time to be private, don't accept people from your work place as friends on Facebook/twitter or what ever else. Leave who you work for out of your bio, that way you don't represent anyone. You can be free from your job when ever your not in work, it's quite simple to do. I do it. I don't talk about my job, on the internet, I might give my job description, but not who I work for, and I most certainly do not put my views on my job on the internet for people to discuss and tell me how to do it/have feed back and talk about it. when I'm home I'm not in work, I'm not going to make that choice to put my self out there unless I'm in the right mindset for it, and it's in work time.

> >

> > Bottom line is, she messed up. She pulled the sexism card when there was non. at lease not from what I saw in his post. Since being let go she has tried to make it about the fact she is a woman, she's ignoring the fact a male college who supported her abuse of someone who was just talking and being very polite about it, got fired as well. So yeah it must be all about her being a woman(!)

> >

> > I don't know a single thing about her, I don't I'll admit that, nor did I have a clue who she was till all this happened. But as my first impression of her, she comes across as not a very nice person, I know we all have bad days, but if you're having a bad day, the internet is not the best place for anyone, and she found that out the hard way.

> >

> >

>

> Basically what you're saying is that people should either be anonymous or censor themselves.

 

If they can't be polite to people when they are being polite to them yes. It's called being a professional. If you can't handle people on the internet then don't be on it, don't want people to tell you how to do your job, don't talk about it. It is that simple. I'm not saying its right that people give her gref/troll her, nope it's not. She could have just ignored/blocked them and got on with things. As I said we all have bad days, and I bet if she had lost it with someone being a POS to her, then Mo would have had her back. Losing it with someone being polite and saying he was being sexist is not. It wouldn't surprise me if that's why she got fired. I remember a few years ago two people I worked with had a disagreement on how a job should be done, there was not raised voices or anything, it was a discussion on how the work should be done, one guy said to the other, "you don't know what you are talking about." In relation to the work, to which the other guy responded, "your only saying that because I'm black." Now as the guy in charge of them both, I phoned HR right there, I was not paid enough to handle that powder keg. The company decided that calling someone a racist because they disagreed with how to do a job was ground for dismissal. It was a shame because he was a good worker, and I personally liked him, with that said, trying to turn a disagreement in to an incident or racism, sexism or anything else when it is not, only hurts the people who are suffering it.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"OrbitalButt.5708" said:

> Didn't she once make a big post condemning gatekeeping and saying that you shouldn't have to be a professional to question one

>

>

 

 

[Yep](https://nerdybutflirty.com/2013/09/28/interview-with-jessica-price-project-manager-at-paizo-publishing/). She sure did.

 

>**I think I’ve touched on it above, but in case it wasn’t explicit enough: I hate gatekeeping. I hate the idea that newcomers should have to prove some sort of level of knowledge or dedication before being welcomed to participate.**

 

>If you’re unfamiliar with something I love, GREAT. I get to share it with you. I get to experience the joy of discovering it for the first time again through you. I get to be a teacher. I get to be a native showing a visitor around a city I love. And there’s a chance you’ll love my city so much [that] you’ll decide to move there, and we can be neighbors, and maybe someday you’ll show me a part of it I didn’t know about, or build a new part of it for me to love. It’s hard to imagine anything better than that.

 

>**Every time I watch someone in games or fandom drive someone away because that person is a newbie, or didn’t sufficiently prove their fan cred, I watch an opportunity for that sort of joy and wonder and sharing die an untimely death.**

 

(Emphasis is mine)

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> MO can say anything about protecting his employees all he wants, but the truth is would they actually do it, and exactly what can they do to someone that's not in this country.

Yeah, this makes me think. Whatever could he have done to have her back against someone who disagreed with her slightly? Try to keep a straight face?

 

> Oh, they can pull his partner status and ban his accounts, but would that solve anything? Not at all, and I have this huge problem with the whole following the chain of command when dealing with either internal problems or external problems. In my opinion the first part of that chain of command is having the two parties involved hash it out amongst themselves, then if they can't resolve their differences you can start escalating starting with frontline supervisors and moving up the chain until you find a level that can solve the problem...and that goes for everything from sexual harrassment/misconduct all the way to bullying.

Do you actually not realize there wouldn't be an issue to hash out at all if she'd taken her "grievances" to the company?

 

> As for the the TotalBiscuit comment, really all she said was, to paraphrase, that now he's no longer around to cause harm to anyone else. Do we want to deny that he caused harm to a lot of people? Because if you want to deny he did, then you've been living under a rock buried deep beneath the earth.

When you dance on someone's grave, you're not making any point against the deceased at all. They're dead. The only thing it accomplishes is to heap upon the grief of the people they leave behind and to show yourself to be without a shred of decency.

[Alga.6498]

Good job MO, you guys did the right thing, :) :heart:

 

I guess we can now say Jessica paid her _price_… :lol:

[Scud.5067]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > @"OrbitalButt.5708" said:

> > Didn't she once make a big post condemning gatekeeping and saying that you shouldn't have to be a professional to question one

> >

> >

>

>

> [Yep](https://nerdybutflirty.com/2013/09/28/interview-with-jessica-price-project-manager-at-paizo-publishing/). She sure did.

>

> >**I think I’ve touched on it above, but in case it wasn’t explicit enough: I hate gatekeeping. I hate the idea that newcomers should have to prove some sort of level of knowledge or dedication before being welcomed to participate.**

>

> >If you’re unfamiliar with something I love, GREAT. I get to share it with you. I get to experience the joy of discovering it for the first time again through you. I get to be a teacher. I get to be a native showing a visitor around a city I love. And there’s a chance you’ll love my city so much [that] you’ll decide to move there, and we can be neighbors, and maybe someday you’ll show me a part of it I didn’t know about, or build a new part of it for me to love. It’s hard to imagine anything better than that.

>

> >**Every time I watch someone in games or fandom drive someone away because that person is a newbie, or didn’t sufficiently prove their fan cred, I watch an opportunity for that sort of joy and wonder and sharing die an untimely death.**

>

> (Emphasis is mine)

 

Classic.

 

I think its fair to say she enjoys the attention, uses / used the company name to leverage herself into the public eye, and decided to preach her chosen gospel.

 

Which.. honestly - is ok.

 

But obviously, there are consequences.

 

When you preach to the peanut gallery, you have to expect responses across the spectrum.

 

And fact that she attempted to preach, while censoring those that disagreed/she deemed unworthy, makes it clear that she could give it - but not take it.

 

Also, playing gender card.

 

Also, playing the victim card.

 

Also, hypocrisy.

 

Eh.. class act.

 

All of this.. could be written off as human. We all make mistakes. But her inability to recant, to recognize her part in this drama and at least offer an apology to D, speaks volume of her true character, versus the persona she's attempted to craft for her fan base.

 

And woe to those suckered in by her duplicity.

[Savre.7932]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > @"OrbitalButt.5708" said:

> > Didn't she once make a big post condemning gatekeeping and saying that you shouldn't have to be a professional to question one

> >

> >

>

>

> [Yep](https://nerdybutflirty.com/2013/09/28/interview-with-jessica-price-project-manager-at-paizo-publishing/). She sure did.

>

> >**I think I’ve touched on it above, but in case it wasn’t explicit enough: I hate gatekeeping. I hate the idea that newcomers should have to prove some sort of level of knowledge or dedication before being welcomed to participate.**

>

> >If you’re unfamiliar with something I love, GREAT. I get to share it with you. I get to experience the joy of discovering it for the first time again through you. I get to be a teacher. I get to be a native showing a visitor around a city I love. And there’s a chance you’ll love my city so much [that] you’ll decide to move there, and we can be neighbors, and maybe someday you’ll show me a part of it I didn’t know about, or build a new part of it for me to love. It’s hard to imagine anything better than that.

>

> >**Every time I watch someone in games or fandom drive someone away because that person is a newbie, or didn’t sufficiently prove their fan cred, I watch an opportunity for that sort of joy and wonder and sharing die an untimely death.**

>

> (Emphasis is mine)

 

haha jesus thanks for digging that up. That is hilariously ironic.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > At least part of your statement is correct, MO and ArenaNet will look bad and it will cause players to leave the game...perhaps not as many as if he had kept probably the two best writers on the team, but still, people will leave, because in the end. An employer should always have their employees back in a dispute with a customer...always, that is a fundamental tenet of being a good leader(whether that's from a Lead all the way up to a CEO, you should always have your employees backs).

> >

> > IF you read MOs reply here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/594568/#Comment_594568 you will find this:

> > > In this case, however, our employees could have chosen not to engage, and they could have brought the issue to the company, whereby we would have done everything we could to protect them.

> > > We won’t tolerate harassment. When an employee feels harassed, we want them to bring the issue to us, so that we can protect the employee, deal with the issue, and use it to speak to the larger issue of harassment.

> > They would've protected them, if they did not escalate the situation beyond saving. They would've protected them if they did not take matters into their own hands and continue harassing their customers, repeatedly.

>

> MO can say anything about protecting his employees all he wants, but the truth is would they actually do it, and exactly what can they do to someone that's not in this country. Oh, they can pull his partner status and ban his accounts, but would that solve anything? Not at all, and I have this huge problem with the whole following the chain of command when dealing with either internal problems or external problems. In my opinion the first part of that chain of command is having the two parties involved hash it out amongst themselves, then if they can't resolve their differences you can start escalating starting with frontline supervisors and moving up the chain until you find a level that can solve the problem...and that goes for everything from sexual harrassment/misconduct all the way to bullying.

>

> As for the the TotalBiscuit comment, really all she said was, to paraphrase, that now he's no longer around to cause harm to anyone else. Do we want to deny that he caused harm to a lot of people? Because if you want to deny he did, then you've been living under a rock buried deep beneath the earth.

 

This is getting so, so far from the actual facts... You're now attacking a company for what they would or wouldn't have done should the situation had been different...

The partner was not harassing/being a jerk, she did not report the situation cause there was no reason to in the first place... etc etc.

And a consumer can be a jerk, it's still not professional to react that way...

 

You're trying too hard to defend a bad person. You're diminishing a death celebration while trying really hard to turn a feedback into aggression.

I mean, if that's not double standard what is.

[Dante.1763]

Little confused on what harm TD did to anybody? ive watched a large portion of his videos, and i never got that impression from them :/

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> Little confused on what harm TD did to anybody? ive watched a large portion of his videos, and i never got that impression from them :/

 

*DISCLAIMER - These aren't my viewpoints, but views i've seen expressed*

 

His reviews, often very candid shined light to poorly developed products which when brought to light turned away potential customers and thus income. One could say that it was a direct impact to those devs careers monetarily and future employment just by being associated with them.

 

I'm sure there's more sorted tweet's that people may derive character flaws from as well.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > @"OrbitalButt.5708" said:

> > Didn't she once make a big post condemning gatekeeping and saying that you shouldn't have to be a professional to question one

> >

> >

>

>

> [Yep](https://nerdybutflirty.com/2013/09/28/interview-with-jessica-price-project-manager-at-paizo-publishing/). She sure did.

>

> >**I think I’ve touched on it above, but in case it wasn’t explicit enough: I hate gatekeeping. I hate the idea that newcomers should have to prove some sort of level of knowledge or dedication before being welcomed to participate.**

>

> >If you’re unfamiliar with something I love, GREAT. I get to share it with you. I get to experience the joy of discovering it for the first time again through you. I get to be a teacher. I get to be a native showing a visitor around a city I love. And there’s a chance you’ll love my city so much [that] you’ll decide to move there, and we can be neighbors, and maybe someday you’ll show me a part of it I didn’t know about, or build a new part of it for me to love. It’s hard to imagine anything better than that.

>

> >**Every time I watch someone in games or fandom drive someone away because that person is a newbie, or didn’t sufficiently prove their fan cred, I watch an opportunity for that sort of joy and wonder and sharing die an untimely death.**

>

> (Emphasis is mine)

 

Pure Gold fleshy

[Dante.1763]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > Little confused on what harm TD did to anybody? ive watched a large portion of his videos, and i never got that impression from them :/

>

> *DISCLAIMER - These aren't my viewpoints, but views i've seen expressed*

>

> His reviews, often very candid shined light to poorly developed products which when brought to light turned away potential customers and thus income. One could say that it was a direct impact to those devs careers monetarily and future employment just by being associated with them.

>

> I'm sure there's more sorted tweet's that people may derive character flaws from as well.

 

Ahhh, see thats the reason i watched his videos. But if thats what people are talking about, then theres a clear difference between someone dying of literal cancer, and someone doing reviews on products of games, no matter how poorly(some of which, where just awful.)

 

I never followed his twitter(because i dont twitter) so i have no idea what he was like over there.

[juhani.5361]

> @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said:

> > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > There's only one winner in this situation:

> > > >

> > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress.

> > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued.

> > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them.

> > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie.

> > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

> > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed.

> > > >

> > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn.

> > > >

> > > > That means we all lost.

> > >

> > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR!

> > >

> > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES!

> > >

> > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community.

> > >

> > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing!

> >

> > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community.

> How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD

 

Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like.

 

I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have.

 

Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future.

 

Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

[jamesg.7128]

I wasn't going to comment on this topic until I saw this headline-

"FIRED GUILD WARS 2 WRITER SAYS FORMER EMPLOYER WAS 'HIGHLY UNPROFESSIONAL'"

As a professional myself, all I can say is that if JP thinks her (original) comments "professional", then we have very different definitions of the term.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"juhani.5361" said:

> I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have.

 

Yeah. But you know... every single professional can have stress along their life. Stress doesn't only come from gender issue (lived OR perceived).

Burning out happens. It happens everywhere. Most of the time it happens internally though. And the problem is resolved internally.

Yeah, it might be unfair and all, but that's what it takes to be professional. You know there's a limit not to cross. This golden rule is deeply hardcoded in every single decent IT professional out there.

 

In this incident you have two people fired. One that really didn't do much wrong, one who is at the origin of the incident.

One is being professional by handling this internally (or not, but at least not involving the public), one is spitting all her hate on the world.

 

No matter how you want to take that, this person is in no way acting professionally. Even now. Polygon can accuse "the mobs" all they want and twist the facts however they want, even doubting Deroir when he calls himself a feminist, at the end of the day there's only one person who truly hurted feminism, and it's JP. Her total lack of self-reflection over the incident makes it abundantly clear.

[Xzygy.1452]

Mike, thank you. As a customer, what I saw from these two former employees against Deroir was way over the line. This wasn't an easy choice for you to make, and I want you to know that I appreciate it. There are many things that I'd like to see done better in GW2, but I have never doubted that the company as a whole has made and is continuing to make something beautiful, and have lovingly crafted everything in the game with gender equality being a major factor in the artistic and story design. The exemplary handling of the female Charr design is especially indicative of this commitment to an inclusive environment. Thank you for doing the right thing.

[Hesacon.8735]

How are you guys still talking about this? Two devs are out of a job and Anet now has to find 2 new employees. Seems like everything else must have been said in 60 pages, plus reddit, plus other topics.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > > At least part of your statement is correct, MO and ArenaNet will look bad and it will cause players to leave the game...perhaps not as many as if he had kept probably the two best writers on the team, but still, people will leave, because in the end. An employer should always have their employees back in a dispute with a customer...always, that is a fundamental tenet of being a good leader(whether that's from a Lead all the way up to a CEO, you should always have your employees backs).

> > >

> > > IF you read MOs reply here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/594568/#Comment_594568 you will find this:

> > > > In this case, however, our employees could have chosen not to engage, and they could have brought the issue to the company, whereby we would have done everything we could to protect them.

> > > > We won’t tolerate harassment. When an employee feels harassed, we want them to bring the issue to us, so that we can protect the employee, deal with the issue, and use it to speak to the larger issue of harassment.

> > > They would've protected them, if they did not escalate the situation beyond saving. They would've protected them if they did not take matters into their own hands and continue harassing their customers, repeatedly.

> >

> > MO can say anything about protecting his employees all he wants, but the truth is would they actually do it, and exactly what can they do to someone that's not in this country. Oh, they can pull his partner status and ban his accounts, but would that solve anything? Not at all, and I have this huge problem with the whole following the chain of command when dealing with either internal problems or external problems. In my opinion the first part of that chain of command is having the two parties involved hash it out amongst themselves, then if they can't resolve their differences you can start escalating starting with frontline supervisors and moving up the chain until you find a level that can solve the problem...and that goes for everything from sexual harrassment/misconduct all the way to bullying.

> >

> > As for the the TotalBiscuit comment, really all she said was, to paraphrase, that now he's no longer around to cause harm to anyone else. Do we want to deny that he caused harm to a lot of people? Because if you want to deny he did, then you've been living under a rock buried deep beneath the earth.

>

> This is getting so, so far from the actual facts... You're now attacking a company for what they would or wouldn't have done should the situation had been different...

> The partner was not harassing/being a jerk, she did not report the situation cause there was no reason to in the first place... etc etc.

> And a consumer can be a jerk, it's still not professional to react that way...

>

> You're trying too hard to defend a bad person. You're diminishing a death celebration while trying really hard to turn a feedback into aggression.

> I mean, if that's not double standard what is.

 

Actually, I'm not attacking Anet, I'm making a point that there's only so much a company can do to protect an employee from OUTSIDE harassment, or what ever the case may be. A company can say all sorts of things, but there's only so much they can do from a legal standpoint, that's really all I was trying to get at, and it's even more difficult if the offender(whether true or not) is on foreign soil.

 

I can honestly see both sides of the story, I can see how she perceived it might have been a sexist comment from a male telling her how she should do her job, but I can also see how it isn't. As others have said before, there is no tone on the internet, no inflection, no body language...nothing but the written word to go on and the reader has to infer the tone of the author, something extremely hard to do, and much harder to do when the author is writing something in a language other than their native tongue. Because nuances of languages aren't something everyone is taught.

 

It's a mess for everyone, JP, PF, Deroir, MO, ArenaNet and the community. I firmly believe we will see a great degradation in the story going forward, but only time will tell.

 

Polygon's article may be one sided, but it would have been more one-sided had they not posted the full response from MO/ArenaNet, that at least gives people a chance to read their side of the story, and believe it or not, he doesn't dispute some of the things JP is saying, so not everything coming from her is a lie. As for their reputation in the dev world taking a hit, only time will tell that...if it takes them longer than usual or they don't get anyone applying for any open positions, then will we know the truth to her statements about getting a lot of backup from other devs. Or perhaps some people from the community itself will apply and fill those positions, and then find out just exactly how hard it is to work on GW2.

 

I've read all the tweets back and forth between everyone, but I'm also one of the few people that read her tweets about the PC as being almost a white paper/a design guide that is part of the GW2 devs handbook...this is how we do it and why; sort of like something you give to all new hires to study so they know to contribute to the team going forward. Deroir thought it was an interesting topic to discuss, I just thought it was a statement not open to discussion, a de facto...that's they way it is.

 

Personally I really don't care how other people treat other people, nor do I care how people treat me...what ever problem they have is quite obviously their problem, it's not my problem. Here's a potential solution to eliminate the chance of anyone claiming sexism...let's just segregate suggestions between males and females, i.e.: males can only offer criticism/suggestions/feedback to other males, and the same goes for women too.

[Sviel.7493]

I'm a little late to the party.

 

I don't remember where I first heard about this, but I checked out a couple of YouTube videos to get an idea of what was going on. The first one was shamelessly biased and I didn't think I'd get an accurate picture, so I switched to the one by Laymen Gaming. They copped to the old Fox News slogan of giving all of the info and allowing the viewer to decide. They showed one tweet by Price, one tweet from Deroir, then another tweet from Price. The rest was just talk, wherein they decided on how they felt about it and discussed how it's such a huge problem and etc, etc. In the end, I still didn't feel like I knew what was going on or that I had received an unbiased summary.

 

So I logged onto Twitter for the first time in ages and found the tweets for myself.

 

Price made about 50 tweets in a row about some unique challenges faced by her GW2 team in portraying the player character. In summary, she said they had to be careful not to give the player character much personality to avoid alienating some section of the playerbase or another. The character had to avoid befouling any of the myriad head-canons of the players. All in all, it's a pretty interesting read.

 

Deroir responded by suggesting the problem was actually that they weren't using branching dialogue choices. By all appearances, he meant it as a constructive suggestion and there was no hint of sexism about it. While I don't know him, I have no reason to believe he wouldn't have made a similar comment to a male dev. That said, it was an asinine suggestion. The only way branching dialogue would solve the problem is if substantially different routes were created for each of what would have to be dozens of branching choices. Unlike RPGs where there is a character separate from the player who they can influence slightly (so few choices are needed), the GW2 player character is a total blank slate. If you give them branching dialogue, you have given them forbidden personality--it's not set in stone, but it must correspond to one of the choices (requiring many choices to avoid pigeon-holing personality). There are a few choices that the player is allowed to make, but true to Price's monologue, they spring from circumstances outside of the player's control. That way, the set of choices doesn't confer personality. However, this is not a maneuver that can be employed in many situations. Finally, branching dialogue is Game Design 101. Suggesting that as if it hadn't been considered is questionable on its own.

 

In that context, I can totally understand Price's frustration with someone 'telling her how to do her job.' Her response was "Thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9," which is not exactly a vicious attack. She then retweeted his comment and framed it as someone giving asinine advice to a female game dev. While there is certainly a history of female game devs (Price included) being given asinine advice, she didn't need to drag his name through the mud. However, since it was an accurate accusation, including his tweet wasn't beyond the pale. This did complicate matters as it was perceived as labeling him as sexist rather than calling attention to the problem of non-sexist players (both male and female) treating female devs as inherently less competent.

 

Cue Reddit outrage, I'm told--I read some of it, but there was too much to dive into the whole thing. Price then tweets about not caring about the outrage. The outrage intensifies. Mike O'Brien fires Price the next day after venting his feelings to her.

 

I'm not really certain how so many people got so mad over fairly non-offensive tweets. Doroir was polite in his speech, even if his suggestion was cringeworthy. Price was justified in her reaction, though a calmer approach could have avoided this whole thing. Meanwhile, everyone not involved blew up. ArenaNet then fires two employees for staggeringly minor offenses and the Gw2 community applauds. This is not how a civil society operates.

 

It would have been reasonable for ArenaNet to chastise Price and distance themselves from her comments, but as her tweets were not inherently offensive, it's overkill to fire her. This is especially troubling because Deroir himself did not seem so offended as to want her fired. To his credit, he refused to engage in the "war" as he called it.

 

The reason for the firing, based on O'Brien's handling of the situation, seems to be the community outrage. But what was the community outraged over? There have been accusations of anti-male sexism, even though there's no indication that Price knew Deroir was a male and there are no indications in her tweets that she links his actions to his being a male. There have been accusations of an attack against a player, but this is not supported by the record. O'Brien made a point of announcing the firings to the whole community ASAP, as if the whole move was just a sacrifice to appease the masses.

 

I'm no fan of Price--I hadn't heard of her prior to this and I don't think her reaction was helpful. Deroir seems like a nice guy--and clearly the calmest head in all of this, even if he unintentionally made a small misstep. But ArenaNet comes out looking the worst of all, save for, perhaps, their community.

 

P.S. I don't read the gaming news sites that covered this. I didn't see any of those articles until double checking various things for this post. There's no opinion on them here because they simply aren't relevant and I really don't care to read them in full.

[juhani.5361]

> @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have.

>

> Yeah. But you know... every single professional can have stress along their life. Stress doesn't only come from gender issue (lived OR perceived).

> Burning out happens. It happens everywhere. Most of the time it happens internally though. And the problem is resolved internally.

> Yeah, it might be unfair and all, but that's what it takes to be professional. You know there's a limit not to cross. This golden rule is deeply hardcoded in every single decent IT professional out there.

>

> In this incident you have two people fired. One that really didn't do much wrong, one who is at the origin of the incident.

> One is being professional by handling this internally (or not, but at least not involving the public), one is spitting all her hate on the world.

>

> No matter how you want to take that, this person is in no way acting professionally. Even now. Polygon can accuse "the mobs" all they want and twist the facts however they want, even doubting Deroir when he calls himself a feminist, at the end of the day there's only one person who truly hurted feminism, and it's JP. Her total lack of self-reflection over the incident makes it abundantly clear.

 

I never said she was acting professionally. I also have a lot of conflicting personal opinions about what happened with all of this that _aren't_ favorable to JP. TBH, I think until the tables turned on her, she was the bully in the initial scenario. Power isn't always associated with gender, but rather the dynamics of individual situations. And it shifts constantly. I also don't exactly have a favorable opinion of PF's actions either. He saw the bullying and amplified it-- becoming a bit of a bully himself. Both of them temporarily held the power in the situation. As one who spent a good segment of her life being bullied, I'm not exactly fond of them :p Frankly, I find them beneath contempt.

 

I'm not up on Polygon's coverage. I've mostly been trying to avoid it. What I have seen are specific Twitter feeds cited on sites like MassivelyOP where female devs from other companies are receiving crap for trying to help their friend find another job. I'm guessing the ones harassing them aren't GW2 players, but the internet bottom feeders this scenario has attracted. That's absolutely uncalled for.

 

Meh. Sexism, like power, is a convoluted issue, which is why I mentioned male nurses and elementary school teachers. Anywhere the gender ratio is so unbalanced, these issues arise. And the people in the minority end up facing similar circumstances. It's something I couldn't take, and I imagine most others can't. So the fields will remain unbalanced. Not everyone has the intestinal fortitude to embrace that additional stress. I can't imagine quagmires like this help either.

[Tatwi.3562]

> @"Sviel.7493" said:

> I'm not really certain how so many people got so mad over fairly non-offensive tweets.

Well, chalk that up to you having lower standards on how people should treat each other, because the things that she wrote weren't acceptable. Think them? Sure, if you're the kind of person who thinks that way. Say them in public? Nope.

[Jski.6180]

These things are never in a vacuum i realty think there might be something wrong with anet and how they feel about there player-base.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Sviel.7493" said:

> I'm not really certain how so many people got so mad over fairly non-offensive tweets. Doroir was polite in his speech, even if his suggestion was cringeworthy. Price was justified in her reaction, though a calmer approach could have avoided this whole thing. Meanwhile, everyone not involved blew up. ArenaNet then fires two employees for staggeringly minor offenses and the Gw2 community applauds. This is not how a civil society operates.

 

The "how" is fairly simple. The initial tweets were enough to attract attention. Following this, -some- people (a minority) started looking at the history of this person, potentially with the intention of finding more things to put on her (which, i'll agree, is pretty rude by itself).

However, what was found (and consequently shared with the community) is a person that wasn't exactly nice overall. The 2 main tweets were the one "almost" celebrating the death of someone she considered badly, another one was simply giving a hard to someone... for enjoying a world acclaimed movie.

 

The gender card -might- sound like it's all men getting their feelings hurt because women are being empowered. It's certainly easier to think that way.

I'm sure that for some people it is, however in my personal opinion, I think that whoever is saying that is miles away from understanding why "the gender card" is a serious issue.

The feminism movement is about empowering women to achieve equality with men. It's recognizing that women for generations had it much harder than men, and we need to come out as a civilization and make sure it doesn't happen anymore. And for the more part, we're getting there, people are feminists. Deroir is feminist (he said so himself), I am feminist, everyone here is feminist. Anti-feminist are negligible in numbers. Certainly not as many as the medias try to make us all believe.

Stereotypes are still a thing of course, and with time there will be less and less. But at least as of right now, the situation of women in the dev industry is partly (probably not completely) due to self-censorship. I think it's important to realize that there's no "bad" intention behind that fact.

What is really bad about this case is right when people in general are becoming more aware of real issues between men and women, and are leaning toward equality... here comes a woman who is picturing herself as less interested by achieving equality, and more by silencing. A self-driven action that is effectively a 2 step back for some people, who could now be wondering "So... how many times before did she pull that card? Was I right to believe her claims before... Are women really having a harder time at work, or are they just looking for someone to blame?"

OF COURSE, I do not believe for a second that everyone is lying and that there is no difficulty at work due to gender, sexual orientation, race or anything. I've got my fair share of snarky comments for being gay also. However after an event like this, I do understand if more people are beginning to wonder... and how many of them are going to turn into derision the next person on twitter that will call our for sexism... for a genuine reason this time.

This is where it hurts, it's when you use a noble cause for personal gains. This is what shocks me personally. The LGBT community pretty much has the same issue right now. We all want equality and respect, but that should never give a free pass for attacking, which IS basically what her excuse is on all gaming medias: "I reacted poorly, but you know... it happened so much because I'm a woman that I snapped". No! Don't hide your mistake behind that. Don't make all women look weak. Own your mistake, and people WILL be sympathetic to you.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"juhani.5361" said:

> Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

 

There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason.

 

I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

 

[Thobek.1730]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

>

> I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

>

 

More like, I really hope Jessica Price sees what is happening reflects on how she could of handled the situation better. Who started this mess in the first place and continued to fuel the fire. She would not even back down for a second and continued to throw around sexist accusations. But as people have said before, she has a history of toxic behaviour, perhaps now she might realise when you advertise what company you work for in your social media channels what you say reflects on the company. She had to go. Mike did the right thing.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Thobek.1730" said:

> > @"morrolan.9608" said:

> >

> > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

> >

>

> More like, I really hope Jessica Price sees what is happening reflects on how she could of handled the situation better. Who started this mess in the first place and continued to fuel the fire. She would not even back down for a second and continued to throw around sexist accusations. But as people have said before, she has a history of toxic behaviour, perhaps now she might realise when you advertise what company you work for in your social media channels what you say reflects on the company. She had to go. Mike did the right thing.

 

According to article interviews she already has reflected on it - and she'd do it again because she says she didnt do anything wrong.

 

She really seems like just a horrible person. Cant do anything wrong, everything is perfect as long as people agree with her but when they dont they are toxic and sexist. Reading the stuff about how Anet was perfect for her (and women, she has to bring that up) and then when she is fired Anet is suddenly awful and "unproffessional" and she turns to attack Anet... yeah. There is a clear pattern here thats objectively blatantly obvious for everyone but the biased journalists and bandwagoners that only care about the narrative. She's a hypocritical and toxic person.