Branching story lines?

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"hugo.4705" said:

> > > > > > I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually!

> > > > >

> > > > > The issue i see with bringing it back is vo. You'd basically have to voice act double or triple the lines.

> > > >

> > > > That has a number of solutions depending on the problem, really. But listing those would mean i'd have to be guessing the workflow in Arena Net, to which i'm not privvy to.

> > > > Assuming the financial budget exists, the rest of the constraints are mostly about organization, really.

> > > >

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years?

> > > > > > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did.

> > > > > > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency.

> > > > > > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it

> > > > > > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel.

> > > > > > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot.

> > > > > > The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better?

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree. If we could tackle missions in different way and have multiple diff dialogue options i would be neat. But thats really extra money and ppl as you said. Firing Fries and Price for someone else wont necessarily make it easier if the money for it arent there.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think Price and Fries (especially Fries, Drooburt was a stroke of genius) were necessarily doing a bad job, i mean within the constraints that were set by Arena Net as a whole, they did a decent job, with a couple hiccups in A Crack in the Ice and this last episode.

> > > > The "problem" is at the upper levels, in the more senior positions that decided that there would be no branching dialogue.

> > > >

> > > > Price and Fries were let go due to Price's poor communication skills, and Fries' misguided attempt to back her up.

> > >

> > > You're right about the workflow thing, but that's sort of my point. MMOs have a different footprint than single player games. There are far more things a dev team has to worry about. Branching story lines are not part of most MMOs (none I can think of off hand) for a reason. The bulk of the resources tends to go to server stuff, group stuff, and in general, keeping people in positions where they can play together. It means that a choice made by a player can't change the world.

> > >

> > > Let's say you decided not to save Orr and that was actually an option. You'd need to different versions of the Orr map, one for each story. But each branch would lead to more branches and eventually you'd have no real way to keep track of it all.

> > >

> > > This isn't a problem in single player games, generally, because content is not constantly added all the time. Most single player games don't upgrade the way MMOs do. They sell you a product and they may sell you some DLC down the road, but it's still a very different animal.

> > >

> > > This isn't just Anet's work flow. It's the overwhelming logic within the development of MMOs in general. The more you divide the playerbase, the less easy it is for people to play together.

> >

> > Other MMORPGs have quest systems, that differ entirely from how GW2 handles it. GW2 uses a more single-player like approach to story telling than most MMORPGs. And yes some MMORPGs have branching quests where you can have different outcomes according to your choices.

> > What you don't understand is that it doesn't divide the player base. 90% of the personal story is played within single-player instances. And they'll always be in the same physical space. You're totally exaggerating the scope of the branching that's intended for GW2 stories.

>

> I dont think ik an mmo that has main story branching quests with meaningfully diff outcomes.

 

I can tell you one in Black Desert right of the bat:

There's this quest line about a rebel leader, but you eventually learn that the quest giver is extremely biased against that rebel leader, which turns out isn't the bad guy we were told by the quest giver. You can then choose to either kill the rebel leader (and get a title, and a reward), or let him live (and get an entirely different title and reward).

It's part of the main story, and it branches considerably, and has a permanent effect on you (the different title). Of course, those quests have a smaller scope than the Guild Wars 2 quests, again because GW2 is built more like a single-player game in terms of the personal story, than a "traditional" MMORPG.

 

There's more examples, but this is the one i can think of more recently. But there's stuff like this in NWO, LOTRO, etc.

 

Also, i noticed the "meaningful". Care to elaborate. I mean no one here is asking (i think) for a multiple-ending kind of scenario for GW2, but more the option to chose how your character reacts to certain steps, doesn't mean the overall ending of the story is different, just that you have the choice to represent (and role-play) your character, instead of just the generic "blank slate".

[thruine.8510]

I think what's being missed is its the personal instances, which you can play with others, where you could help players connect with their character better. After having thought over things, I don't think JP was wrong in her commentary on narration and why its done as it is. What I think she didn't really get to is how the personal instances are being treated the same as the open world where things have to be the same for everyone. In the instances, which will increase costs, already have us go from instance to instance however choices we make could have use go from an instance to a different one than normally. But mainly I find to care about the player character I have to have some control over their emotion and speech. We simply have none in those areas. Just for a quick example, we have to information from a prisoner could have us bribe, trick or beat them to get the information. Currently we will all do the same thing but I would at least like to pick that choice. It would be nice if our companions remember the choice down the line but just for the player I feel we need to at least make the choices. If i'm going to continue to have no distinction between my story and yours... and the reward isn't worthwhile... I'd just as soon watch you play through than play it myself. Its just becomes a waste of time for me.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"hugo.4705" said:

> > > > > > > I only want one thing: bring back the personality system with dignity-charm-ferocity, I want to choose between being nice or mad toward NPCs, just like the court thing at the beginning of episode 3. How can I identify myself/create a link/instore a backstory for my characters if I can't even choose a different path for each? Only the story 0-40 level is different actually!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The issue i see with bringing it back is vo. You'd basically have to voice act double or triple the lines.

> > > > >

> > > > > That has a number of solutions depending on the problem, really. But listing those would mean i'd have to be guessing the workflow in Arena Net, to which i'm not privvy to.

> > > > > Assuming the financial budget exists, the rest of the constraints are mostly about organization, really.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > No, we're not, because the reason we're not getting that stuff hasn't changed. It's great for single player games, but almost impossible to do in an MMO. The more you branch, the more you separate players who are all supposed to be coming together. In a single player game you can change the world around decisions made by players. In in MMO you really can't. Even in a bioware game like SWToR, there were people complaining that your choices didn't come to anything. They made no real difference.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Coming together? In the personal story? Except for taking a couple of buddies with you in the story for achievements, or because you need help, when did the story ever bring people together in the last 3 years?

> > > > > > > > > It used to do that with the dungeons sub-plot, but that was gone, and Arah was made a solo instance because it was the only "mandatory" story dungeon.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The only reason it's not done, is that it's too time-consuming... Has nothing to do with bringing players together. You can easily write a branching story that only gives the illusion of choice, like the original Personal Story did.

> > > > > > > > > Also, having 3 separate teams working on the story, apparently with it's own writing staff, instead of a single writing team writing the whole story won't help consistency.

> > > > > > > > > With the right writing staff, coordinated properly, and the willingness and budget to have it voiced and coded, you can easily have the same story, the same outcome, and yet be allowed to at least control your character's personality, instead of having a two-times dragon slayer, that saved the world, and the next best heroes a few times, getting cowed by a angsty teenager that now thinks he knows the mother he dispised better than you, the guy that was mentored by her, saved her a couple times, and was the person that brought him and his mother together. (Yes that still smarts).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A great way to do this would be to bring back the abandoned **Personality** system. You get a few different choices of dialogue, each with in-episode consequences that get resolved in a self-contained manner. Just get the writing staff on a workshop on how to write for sitcoms, or tv-series, those have a great way of encapsulating everything inside a episode, and pretty much get back to status quo by the end of it

> > > > > > > > > .> @"thruine.8510" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Nobody said she was wrong... Even deroir disagree'd slightly. such thing would require resources and man power which i would honestly prefer used elsewere. This is an mmo after all not a sp rpg.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Sorry to do back to backs but I can't get quote to work the way I need it to. But about "mmo after all not a sp rpg".... are we not being sold this? The casual nature of the game, whether you think it good or bad, with everyone having skills making playing with others unnecessary in most cases. Basically saying you can play it solo. Players should expect as much a well done single player experience as a massive online experience. The game is much better with others and a bit tedious solo so its already failing to do half of what its promising.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's a mmoRPG. There's a difference. Basically we'll get the quality we settle for. People settled for this, so Arena Net had nothing to gain from pushing for better. As long as people are willing to blindly defend Arena Net in all matters, even against self-interest, they'll never feel pressured to excel.

> > > > > > > > > It's quite obvious from the formulaic nature of the last several releases that Arena Net lost a lot of it's drive to be at the forefront of innovation, and we allowed it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The game must follow a narative to arive in certain key points the devs want to make, branching storylines works against this unless u are alone in the world so who the kitten cares what you do. At best what we could get is the ps stuff where u always endup on zhaitan but youdo so from a diff paths.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Seriously, read my posts. I've already addressed that... Of course you have to always end up on the same spot, but with each character you can have an unique story, or at least the illusion of choice, you never really have a choice in any games, the endings have to be coded, so they're always pre-determined. Even more so on a game like this where the story keeps going further. But nothing stops them from branching out choices, have 2-3 paths and consequences within an episode, and in the end all finish in the same spot.

> > > > > > > The only thing preventing this is human resources (not the department, the actual manpower), and probably monetary constraints. Thing is, the story is already the basis of the game's success, imagine how much more happy players they'd have if it was even better?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree. If we could tackle missions in different way and have multiple diff dialogue options i would be neat. But thats really extra money and ppl as you said. Firing Fries and Price for someone else wont necessarily make it easier if the money for it arent there.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think Price and Fries (especially Fries, Drooburt was a stroke of genius) were necessarily doing a bad job, i mean within the constraints that were set by Arena Net as a whole, they did a decent job, with a couple hiccups in A Crack in the Ice and this last episode.

> > > > > The "problem" is at the upper levels, in the more senior positions that decided that there would be no branching dialogue.

> > > > >

> > > > > Price and Fries were let go due to Price's poor communication skills, and Fries' misguided attempt to back her up.

> > > >

> > > > You're right about the workflow thing, but that's sort of my point. MMOs have a different footprint than single player games. There are far more things a dev team has to worry about. Branching story lines are not part of most MMOs (none I can think of off hand) for a reason. The bulk of the resources tends to go to server stuff, group stuff, and in general, keeping people in positions where they can play together. It means that a choice made by a player can't change the world.

> > > >

> > > > Let's say you decided not to save Orr and that was actually an option. You'd need to different versions of the Orr map, one for each story. But each branch would lead to more branches and eventually you'd have no real way to keep track of it all.

> > > >

> > > > This isn't a problem in single player games, generally, because content is not constantly added all the time. Most single player games don't upgrade the way MMOs do. They sell you a product and they may sell you some DLC down the road, but it's still a very different animal.

> > > >

> > > > This isn't just Anet's work flow. It's the overwhelming logic within the development of MMOs in general. The more you divide the playerbase, the less easy it is for people to play together.

> > >

> > > Other MMORPGs have quest systems, that differ entirely from how GW2 handles it. GW2 uses a more single-player like approach to story telling than most MMORPGs. And yes some MMORPGs have branching quests where you can have different outcomes according to your choices.

> > > What you don't understand is that it doesn't divide the player base. 90% of the personal story is played within single-player instances. And they'll always be in the same physical space. You're totally exaggerating the scope of the branching that's intended for GW2 stories.

> >

> > I dont think ik an mmo that has main story branching quests with meaningfully diff outcomes.

>

> I can tell you one in Black Desert right of the bat:

> There's this quest line about a rebel leader, but you eventually learn that the quest giver is extremely biased against that rebel leader, which turns out isn't the bad guy we were told by the quest giver. You can then choose to either kill the rebel leader (and get a title, and a reward), or let him live (and get an entirely different title and reward).

> It's part of the main story, and it branches considerably, and has a permanent effect on you (the different title). Of course, those quests have a smaller scope than the Guild Wars 2 quests, again because GW2 is built more like a single-player game in terms of the personal story, than a "traditional" MMORPG.

>

> There's more examples, but this is the one i can think of more recently. But there's stuff like this in NWO, LOTRO, etc.

>

> Also, i noticed the "meaningful". Care to elaborate. I mean no one here is asking (i think) for a multiple-ending kind of scenario for GW2, but more the option to chose how your character reacts to certain steps, doesn't mean the overall ending of the story is different, just that you have the choice to represent (and role-play) your character, instead of just the generic "blank slate".

 

A storyline that gives you options is not a branching storyline though. It's not actually branching. In HoT there are two storylines that give you options, right at the beginning. Each of them required extra work to produce. You could in the first story save the sylvari or you could defend the camp. I did both. It changed nothing about the story except that I got to make a choice in character. In the new expansion, you have a choice about which faction to support early on and it changes the flags you see in Crystal Oasis on that character. Those aren't truly branching story lines though.

 

And those examples are from expansions. They're not from Living World which comes out every 2-3 months (most of the time). There's just not enough programming time to bring out content as often as it comes out now, and people are already complaining there's not enough content.

 

People want more choices, but they also want more instances, and they also want new dungeons, and they also want more PvP maps....a lot of people want a lot of different stuff. So if you're bringing out a new zone every single expansion, which takes six months to make, and putting a story in it, you don't really have the leeway to program quest tracks in the LS with branching storylines.

 

Within the context of expansions we're already getting the type of branching you're talking about. I mean I know that I had a choice in HOT to save the village or follow Tislak. But it's not branching. There is a difference between a branching storyline and something that you can do that gives you a different choice just to play your character while changing nothing. The later I support. But at the end of the day it's only supported in your head and for an instance. I mean the title idea is nice. It's simply not what a branching story line means.

 

A true branching storyline means that your choice takes you to other choices, much like a branch on a tree. That's what it means. The personal story branched to a degree, but then funneled everyone into the same story anyway....and people complained about that.