Increasing toxicity in EU WvW.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > > Curious as I’ve only read the first page, but is this thread actually promoting the online bullying of others?

> > >

> > > He's promoting toxicity, so yes. He might as well be promoting trolling.

> >

> > I am not trolling.

> >

> > Yesterday was another day where guilds were asking pugs not to follow their raids; yet there was no public tag so they demanded to follow anyways. Well demanded... they simply did. Not one, or two, or five, but pretty much as many as the guild later on.

> >

> > This might seem fine for you; the pugs have a right to play. And frankly I'd agree. But it makes the players who want to raid not enjoy their raids. And those pugs who were demanding a commander... They just pissed off the exact players that do public leads and open raids. Because the pugs are - as always- entitled to do whatever they want whenever they want; and commanders have to cater to them.

> >

> > Frankly; I think some of the pugs which had exceptionally bad attitudes towards respecting guilds won't be welcomed in future open raids. After all; it's the exact same players deciding they're willing to host open raids. Commanders, even when leading public, actively doing things to avoid (certain) players and pugs isn't new but certainly getting more common.

> >

> > Keep up your demands. Keep assuming it's the other players doing things wrong. I don't mind too much; it won't change a thing. This thread nor me increase toxicity in EU WvW, the behavior of the players does. I'm just saying that if it's the only way to preserve the style of play many communities and guilds enjoy; then it's OK to be elitist and cater just to your own players.

> >

> > Pugs who follow commanders rely on a service provided by others; and you should take this into account. Taking it for granted isn't a very good idea ;).

>

> Then do what guilds have done before. Jump border, run tagless. This isnt a new problem for anyone thats raided the last 6 years. Its all about respect between players but you cant really control that. If guilds really want to show they dont want followers, they have the means to do so.

 

Run tagless, hide from the pugs who are on literally every map looking for you, whenever you make markers or swords expect them to come and move again. Yeah that makes things so much better. Definitely won't lead to frustrations between both.

 

Open leads tagless too? Only way to get players willing to organise.

 

And don't mind the fact that, if we leave the map we were fighting on the pugs weren't exactly going to fight the guilds we were aiming to fight. They'll just afk around unable to fight an organised group. Yet again, pugs quite literally bully guilds and players who want to play in their own way out of being able to do that.

 

They're so hungry for tags yet which they expect and assume as their right; rather than a priviledge; that even you tell me you shouldn't ever tag. And that is exactly what will happen - nobody can put up a tag anywhere or you get hundreds of entitled players and queue yet nobody actually respecting your wishes.

 

There is only one solution. Elitism and toxicity. Make them aware that they're responsible for not getting tags; responsible for their groups results and if they're not welcome in a group; they should respect that too.

[SloRules.3560]

Its funny how many people have problems with being kicked or stuff and here i am on pretty much any class(like seriously i was on mirage and in a squad that kicked even chronos without visible signet) i want and always being put in commanders party(mesmer main curse)....

 

I guess being in top guilds really has its perks, maybe more people should try, joining a (hardcore) guild.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> Open leads tagless too? Only way to get players willing to organise.

 

Well, yes if they feel that forced to it. Invite people to the group, use a specific TS channel, whatever.

 

If people have that low regard to pugs ability to play, its the only way.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"SloRules.3560" said:

> Its funny how many people have problems with being kicked or stuff and here i am on pretty much any class(like seriously i was on mirage and in a squad that kicked even chronos without visible signet) i want and always being put in commanders party(mesmer main curse)....

>

> I guess being in top guilds really has its perks, maybe more people should try, joining a (hardcore) guild.

 

I'm pretty sure I can join the majority of groups on my server on any class or spec I desire, ask for lieut, receive it and then kick every class and player I don't see fit. Even if I come on ranger, then kick every other ranger. It's almost like actually talking to, playing and interacting with your team has its perks.

 

Nobody has something against players who want to try something else. Hell, half the week we've had some of our best players on ranger to deal with the ele abuse while still kicking pretty much every random ranger. Because you know they'll play as is needed, and what is needed, for the group. You know they'll be somewhat useful and interactive with the rest of the group.

 

A random player that insists on playing their exact build and playstyle? I highly doubt they'll be either useful or interactive with the rest of the group. In fact they're signalling that they're not willing to put the group before their own desires; so why would the group cater to them?

 

If all the guilds leave your server... that probably says something about your server.

If nobody is tagging up for you, that probably says something too.

If there's only one guild / tag left, despite having heaps and heaps of pugs looking to play, maybe there's a ... reason for that? Who knows? Is that possible?

 

Perhaps, just maybe, most pugs don't respect other players particularly their teammates at all and their demands are not reasonable. Defend the rights of the non-casual player. Become elitist now!

[Koen.1327]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > i'd indeed rather roam solo on my inferior ranger than join a squad on my rev as it doesn't take long to run (with) into bullies, racists, sexists, you name it. and it gets so much worse if the squad dies just once.

>

> I'm glad you enjoy roaming.

>

> > i'd gladly switch to rev and "contribute" or whatever, but sometimes there is queue and usually too risky to join the map as a rev only to experience massive insult fests.

>

> I'd gladly not insult players for not "contributing", or whatever, but truthfully if I'm all nice about it they'll simply ignore anything asked from them. That's the issue, you don't get to choose one over the other. Either you go full elitist and you play with the players who find this acceptable; or you're nice and open to everyone and you play with ... everything anyone wants to play. Which generally means a whole lot of rangers and thieves and very little coordination.

>

> I do agree that comms who rage on TS... I understand their frustration, by all means, but it's pointless. After all the majority of people who kitten up aren't the ones who are listening to you; it's exactly the ones who aren't. So creating an elitist vibe and atmosphere in teamchat / mapchat / squad and a friendly community atmosphere in voice is deal; IMO.

 

elitism simply doesn't create an inclusive environment, i don't consider it a solution for problem you described.

 

another thing about your last comment about no public tags on the map, i wouldn't tag up just because there will be smartasses blaming/flaming about rangers, strategy, etc.

there is many tag colours available and i think everybody knows the type, but never are they up reflecting people's play style (open, guild, towers, w/e). is this restricted by playerbase, attitude of servers, knowledge of the game or even gold?

 

a lot of the complains can be resolved by the developers, like making classes actually balanced so everybody can play the class they want or making voicechat more accessible (so just ingame and functioning). i know anet won't do anything but increasing toxicity is not an alternative for me

[SloRules.3560]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"SloRules.3560" said:

> > Its funny how many people have problems with being kicked or stuff and here i am on pretty much any class(like seriously i was on mirage and in a squad that kicked even chronos without visible signet) i want and always being put in commanders party(mesmer main curse)....

> >

> > I guess being in top guilds really has its perks, maybe more people should try, joining a (hardcore) guild.

>

> I'm pretty sure I can join the majority of groups on my server on any class or spec I desire, ask for lieut, receive it and then kick every class and player I don't see fit. Even if I come on ranger, then kick every other ranger. It's almost like actually talking to, playing and interacting with your team has its perks.

>

> Nobody has something against players who want to try something else. Hell, half the week we've had some of our best players on ranger to deal with the ele abuse while still kicking pretty much every random ranger. Because you know they'll play as is needed, and what is needed, for the group. You know they'll be somewhat useful and interactive with the rest of the group.

>

> A random player that insists on playing their exact build and playstyle? I highly doubt they'll be either useful or interactive with the rest of the group. In fact they're signalling that they're not willing to put the group before their own desires; so why would the group cater to them?

>

> If all the guilds leave your server... that probably says something about your server.

> If nobody is tagging up for you, that probably says something too.

> If there's only one guild / tag left, despite having heaps and heaps of pugs looking to play, maybe there's a ... reason for that? Who knows? Is that possible?

>

> Perhaps, just maybe, most pugs don't respect other players particularly their teammates at all and their demands are not reasonable. Defend the rights of the non-casual player. Become elitist now!

 

Oh i was probably missunderstood. You have to earn respect (you arent in vi, ash, lays,... By being a kitten) to play some totaly random build is what i was getting at.

 

For most gvg players its almost impossible to play bad, or rather they will perform so good on any spec they play that they still count for 3 randoms instead of lets say 5, which makes commanders want them anyway(these same players will also switch to their main when everything goes sideways).

 

Ofc you have to kick people that arent even trying, i left Gandara because i was considered toxic and everytime i made some suggestions(especialy for mesmer/my main) iwas being shut down for being too toxic.

 

What happened to Gandara? All good commanders left/quit.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > Open leads tagless too? Only way to get players willing to organise.

>

> Well, yes if they feel that forced to it. Invite people to the group, use a specific TS channel, whatever.

 

A specific TS channel? Any will do. I tend to reply our discord link to the question "is there a public zerg anywhere" yet they don't seem to get it. They just ask again 10 minutes later. Funny how that works.

 

> If people have that low regard to pugs ability to play, its the only way.

 

It's not about their ability to play. In my opinion most casual pugs are quite literally griefing. There is absolutely no respect for other players or groups in WvW. I mean every single guild and pugmander except one left a certain server in the last 2 months. A server that has always been strong on pugmanders and guilds for the last 3-4 years; yet the pugs became so spoilt nobody wants to deal with them anymore. The last guild was fighting with 15 players and more than 2 times their numbers in pug cloud following them around the map. Open leads are not done by anyone.

 

What do you think will happen? I think that server will have a grand total of 0 soon. Once it starts and players need to go tagless / avoid tagging public / ... it only gets worse, as the remainder of the pugs flock to the last tags. After that they start moving servers to a place with more tags.

 

Many players will transfer for a tag, queue for a tag, demand a tag but not listen or respect one. Funny how that works.

 

The answer is NOT never tagging. The answer is NOT every guild spending their entire guild raid playing hide and seek with their own server. The answer is definitely not to have all these players ragequit the game and have WvW die completely. The answer is being respectful for other groups in WvW - but asking nicely doesn't cut it. So we turn to the only actual solution; elitism. Make these players aware it is in fact their attitude that leads to them not having tags.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"SloRules.3560" said:

> Its funny how many people have problems with being kicked or stuff and here i am on pretty much any class(like seriously i was on mirage and in a squad that kicked even chronos without visible signet) i want and always being put in commanders party(mesmer main curse)....

>

> I guess being in top guilds really has its perks, maybe more people should try, joining a (hardcore) guild.

 

This sounds more like the “Good ol’boys” system. Or a WvW version of Mean Girls lol “You can’t sit with us!” Lol

 

[SloRules.3560]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"SloRules.3560" said:

> > Its funny how many people have problems with being kicked or stuff and here i am on pretty much any class(like seriously i was on mirage and in a squad that kicked even chronos without visible signet) i want and always being put in commanders party(mesmer main curse)....

> >

> > I guess being in top guilds really has its perks, maybe more people should try, joining a (hardcore) guild.

>

> This sounds more like the “Good ol’boys” system. Or a WvW version of Mean Girls lol “You can’t sit with us!” Lol

>

 

Its more about everyone knowing that you have 3-4 raids per week with weekly video reviews and hundreds or thousands of hours in gvg guilds behind you, and probably knowing more than majority of commanders themselves. All that from just running a certain tag.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > i'd indeed rather roam solo on my inferior ranger than join a squad on my rev as it doesn't take long to run (with) into bullies, racists, sexists, you name it. and it gets so much worse if the squad dies just once.

> >

> > I'm glad you enjoy roaming.

> >

> > > i'd gladly switch to rev and "contribute" or whatever, but sometimes there is queue and usually too risky to join the map as a rev only to experience massive insult fests.

> >

> > I'd gladly not insult players for not "contributing", or whatever, but truthfully if I'm all nice about it they'll simply ignore anything asked from them. That's the issue, you don't get to choose one over the other. Either you go full elitist and you play with the players who find this acceptable; or you're nice and open to everyone and you play with ... everything anyone wants to play. Which generally means a whole lot of rangers and thieves and very little coordination.

> >

> > I do agree that comms who rage on TS... I understand their frustration, by all means, but it's pointless. After all the majority of people who kitten up aren't the ones who are listening to you; it's exactly the ones who aren't. So creating an elitist vibe and atmosphere in teamchat / mapchat / squad and a friendly community atmosphere in voice is deal; IMO.

>

> elitism simply doesn't create an inclusive environment, i don't consider it a solution for problem you described.

 

You cannot create an inclusive environment. If I create an inclusive, friendly environment which is still capable of the kind of gameplay my players enjoy it gets near-instantly overrun with players. Overrun to the point where you can't play the game organised. The amount of players looking for a nice; inclusive environment that'll cater to their needs is massive. The amount of work required to realise this is massive. The amount of players left willing to put up with this and do this is 0.

 

Imagine; instead, I create an exclusive environment. An environment which selectively allows the players who are willing to do minimum effort. Nothing insane; just running something more or less useful. And as others state, organising occasional more exclusive discord / hidden raids with higher expectations of players to keep players on all skill levels and motivations more or less happy.

I still find plenty of players for this. There is absolutely NO issue finding enough players to do this.

 

The issue is ... well everyone who's excluded demands to be included; without being willing to put in the effort you demand. And the truth is, if I allow it then whatever they want to join will cease to exist within a matter of weeks or months. Not joking. Even the more active and stronger EU servers rely on what... 5-10 commanders that will lead pugs? At best? Most of them have... maybe 3? Some have none despite being "full" or "very high"?

 

You see, for someone who leads pugs creating an inclusive environment is what I'd love. Read my OP - if everyone in WvW is respectful of eachothers wishes then there is no issue. You just don't follow the groups whose style you dislike and organise something that suits you more. Yes it takes some effort - but it's pretty basic to respect the wishes of your allies in my opinion. Yet even this simple thing is considered "toxic", "elitist" and not doable. Instead I have to kick them and get them killed repeatedly until they learn; while they'll still follow AND flame me at the same time.

 

 

> another thing about your last comment about no public tags on the map, i wouldn't tag up just because there will be kitten blaming/flaming about rangers, strategy, etc.

> there is many tag colours available and i think everybody knows the type, but never are they up reflecting people's play style (open, guild, towers, w/e). is this restricted by playerbase, attitude of servers, knowledge of the game or even gold?

 

So, how often do you think I get flamed while tagging? Last time I tagged on FSP, I had more pugs in mapchat telling me what to do than pugs willing to join TS and listen to my instructions. Literally players telling me to stop fighting and go ktrain the other side of the map. Telling me to wait in towers and builds acs for them.

Or players who will flame me, permanently, for being elitist and not inclusive enough; while following me anyways. While they're LITERALLY on my follower list, coming to any BL i'm on regardless of open raid, closed raid, hidden raid, ...

 

But I need to be inclusive of these players. I must, else i'm the toxic one.

 

And we have very clear color codes for which tags are open (e.g. blue) and which are not (e.g. yellow = guild). We also TELL PLAYERS. Nicely ask them "hey we're trying to do a closed raid, can you not follow" to which they... will still flame us for being elitist.

 

> a lot of the complains can be resolved by the developers, like making classes actually balanced so everybody can play the class they want or making voicechat more accessible (so just ingame and functioning). i know anet won't do anything but increasing toxicity is not an alternative for me

 

Voicechat is accessible enough. Classes are fairly balanced. Many players "choose" to play builds which are awful - not unbalanced, just awful. And that is their choice, but they also need to respect other players choices. If they can't do that, and right now they most certainly don't, then yes exclusive communities are the answer.

 

If players won't respect the (different) wishes of their allies; forming exclusive communities which heavily cater towards a certain style of play is only natural. And that's what is very much happening. I'm just stating that in order to preserve the organised, much stronger veteran exclusive communities elitism / toxicity towards those who look to only leech is required. Otherwise these places cannot exist; and truthfully NO place for these players can exist.

 

Anet can rework the system to improve it, but it's mostly the community that became this way. The old WvW communities already had drama between players with different desires; yet still resolved them fairly maturely. Many communities had various degrees of more and less hardcore, different requirements, different goals and different styles and players would actively join the groups they enjoyed and leave the others be. As this entire network died and was replaced by singular casual players looking to jump in and be winners without any respect for their allies; most of these communities are long gone and will never come back.

 

The ones that remain? They don't get the option to be inclusive and friendly while also still playing community based, with eachother. It's one or the other. And I'd rather play with the friends I've made over the years that will talk to me and organise together, than play with the guy that decides he needs to get his participation to T6 so he can pipfarm while watching netflix.

 

All hail toxicity!

 

@"SloRules.3560" I understand what you meant; I'm just saying you don't need to be in a GvG guild or top tier. Those requirements are quite high and frankly I don't think there are active GvG guilds left (?). Simply interacting with your community is enough to have most of them know you. Just talking to some players, calling some skills and playing with them. Actively trying to work together with them. The moment players do that; even without being top tier GvG players, I don't mind them trying different things and testing stuff.

 

Because YES, you can make many off-meta stuff work just fine. But the players who refuse to play meta; work together and coordinate with their team are exactly the ones who lack the coordination and skill to make something off-meta work.

[Garrus.7403]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > Curious as I’ve only read the first page, but is this thread actually promoting the online bullying of others?

> >

> > He's promoting toxicity, so yes. He might as well be promoting trolling.

>

> Saying something anyone else finds disagreeable is the new trolling.

 

You are 100% correct sir.

[Lemoncurry.2345]

Where do people get the idea that the commander is some kind of entertainer who should cater for their needs? Like every other player he does not get paid to play the game and provide a service. If he thinks that only green-haired Azura engineers are allowed in his squad then so be it. You are free to make up a squad of your own, search for a different commander, or do smallscale. No one is forcing you to join that squad.

 

That being said, I think that the word "toxic" is overused and is thrown around too much.

 

// again some German-server-specific thoughts, sorry

I have zero experience playing on an international EU world, but I don't think that being toxic is a solution for the German servers (aka the lower part of the EU ladder). On these servers there already is a lot of segregation between fight-oriented and point-oriented players. A large portion of the PPK-players (who haven't left for the in vogue international PPK-Servers) don't play during off-hours. Because kills don't give that much victory points, those servers are heavily dependent on the point-oriented players in order to win a mu. If you crate a toxic environment they will leave or cease playing. As a result the server will be stuck at the bottom, meaning the same boring MUs (and enemies to fight) over and over again. Those servers simply don't have the luxury of e.g. Vabbi to seemingly choose their desired position in the league. It didn't work for Kodash (even with a link the server is struggling to climb) and it isn't working for Riverside (due to not having a link). And I don't want to imagine what happens in mapchat if a PPK-oriented server like Riverside is linked with a PPT-one like Drakkar.

 

 

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Lemoncurry.2345" said:

> Where do people get the idea that the commander is some kind of entertainer who should cater for their needs? Like every other player he does not get paid to play the game and provide a service. If he thinks that only green-haired Azura engineers are allowed in his squad then so be it. You are free to make up a squad of your own, search for a different commander, or do smallscale. No one is forcing you to join that squad.

>

> That being said, I think that the word "toxic" is overused and is thrown around too much.

>

> // again some German-server-specific thoughts, sorry

> I have zero experience playing on an international EU world, but I don't think that being toxic is a solution for the German servers (aka the lower part of the EU ladder). On these servers there already is a lot of segregation between fight-oriented and point-oriented players. A large portion of the PPK-players (who haven't left for the in vogue international PPK-Servers) don't play during off-hours. Because kills don't give that much victory points, those servers are heavily dependent on the point-oriented players in order to win a mu. If you crate a toxic environment they will leave or cease playing. As a result the server will be stuck at the bottom, meaning the same boring MUs (and enemies to fight) over and over again. Those servers simply don't have the luxury of e.g. Vabbi to seemingly choose their desired position in the league. It didn't work for Kodash (even with a link the server is struggling to climb) and it isn't working for Riverside (due to not having a link). And I don't want to imagine what happens in mapchat if a PPK-oriented server like Riverside is linked with a PPT-one like Drakkar.

>

>

 

When vabbi was created, many of our core PPT'd a LOT. We had active effort and organisation involved in PPT'ing; and even then often struggled. Over time strong international servers very quickly attract players, especially if they have active comms. You just have these players PPT for you. You also get PPT hungry links.

 

Also, when playing against two non-PPK servers (which is most of them even in higher tiers); the trick isn't to win based of kills by itself. The trick is to abuse your vastly superior fight groups to bully the PPT players completely out of the game. Most of them will not play if you repeatedly kill them.

 

I can't backcap faster than PPT servers, nor ktrain faster than them, nor sit on an AC defending 5v20 against awful players as long. So against massive coverage servers like the ones in T1; we can't win.

 

But I can open their garri and they're literally forced to sit in there, for hours, often wiping or they lose their garri. Sure; I can't go in and flip it due to the amount of players and ACs. But I can keep them there, grouped, and slowly farm them with occasional wipes to reset, take supply and return. And when they lose their garri, they lose 20+ players from the map in general. Then you put 20-30 fight players in their garri and suddenly... they can't recap it because they plain don't have the skill. More ragequit. Then you end up with upgraded stuff, and they can't even backcap anymore. Hell - if you have to you only attack one side and let the other side keep everything upgraded. Often PPT servers aren't capable of downgrading anything themselves. Leave everything except their stuff T3, bully half their population so their coverage drops and suddenly they don't PPT at all.

 

Except where they just PPT themselves up the week after... :trollface:

 

So yes, controlling PPT is a bit of a struggle and requires effort. But it's generally easier for international servers because if you're "strong", PPT players come no matter what. Not good PPT players, just the usual pugs with coverage. Those are your baseline and your defense; and the PPK blobs can PPT to steer the matchup whatever way they please.

 

We can't /strictly/ control PPT anymore. If we go to T1 for a long time- we won't be able to drop. We can't go to T5. We probably can't even go to T4. Matchups still depend on howmuch effort players (are willing to / can) put into it. PPT is also not balanced. If we play against two PPT heavy dodge servers with alpine BL, we'll usually be able to win without much issues. If we have desert bl it becomes much more difficult.

 

[Astrolicus.3716]

Nothing is more toxic than Vabbi. *Leaves*

 

Good luck remembering who am I, Etheri. :)

[Terrier.8732]

 

 

> Also, when playing against two non-PPK servers (which is most of them even in higher tiers); the trick isn't to win based of kills by itself. The trick is to abuse your vastly superior fight groups to bully the PPT players completely out of the game. Most of them will not play if you repeatedly kill them.

>

 

> But I can open their garri and they're literally forced to sit in there, for hours, often wiping or they lose their garri. Sure; I can't go in and flip it due to the amount of players and ACs. But I can keep them there, grouped, and slowly farm them with occasional wipes to reset, take supply and return. And when they lose their garri, they lose 20+ players from the map in general. Then you put 20-30 fight players in their garri and suddenly... they can't recap it because they plain don't have the skill. More ragequit. Then you end up with upgraded stuff, and they can't even backcap anymore. Hell - if you have to you only attack one side and let the other side keep everything upgraded. Often PPT servers aren't capable of downgrading anything themselves. Leave everything except their stuff T3, bully half their population so their coverage drops and suddenly they don't PPT at all.

 

^^^ this attitude and playstyle is a big part of what is killing population in wvw, more than anything else. If you "big bois" all stack on one or two servers, and then bully the rest of the players, what outcome do you expect? People log in to have competitive fun in a game, not to be abused by vastly superior fight groups day in day out. But hey, by all mans, continue the poor sportsmanship (people don't just want a T3 keep for the PPT ya know.. its for the freaking waypoint, ease to get around the map, so they can get BACK to a fight more easily), the salty rude gloating and whispers, the spawn camping and the trolling of tactivators etc, the grossly outnumbered blobs..... The rest of us love it and really respect the way you play and the environment you bring to the game.... really.. -.-

 

If all you want is good quality fights, then go to Obsidian sanctum with even numbered enemy pug groups.. you still get your PPK. It's not rocket science.

 

 

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Astrolicus.3716" said:

> Nothing is more toxic than Vabbi. *Leaves*

>

> Good luck remembering who am I, Etheri. :)

 

Ooooh Vabbi. Well that explains this thread then.

[Garrus.7403]

> @"Terrier.8732" said:

> If all you want is good quality fights, then go to Obsidian sanctum with even numbered enemy pug groups.. you still get your PPK. It's not rocket science.

>

 

We would go but no one wants to go with us. :( I wonder why?

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > @"Terrier.8732" said:

> > If all you want is good quality fights, then go to Obsidian sanctum with even numbered enemy pug groups.. you still get your PPK. It's not rocket science.

> >

>

> We would go but no one wants to go with us. :( I wonder why?

>

 

but thats your seflmade issue by stacking.

i do understand all this 'toxic' behaviour towards pugs that just want to leech, that makes sense so you can play the game coordinated within your group. but while doing that also stacking on one server you get yourselves the issue that you wont have anyone to fight against. etheri is right there are many leeching pugs infact so many they can fill tons of servers yet the more harcore players can maybe fill 1 or 2 servers. now vabbi has to -as etheri put it- bully one or two PPT servers, spawn camp them till they log off or they cant keep up with the PPT to stay in their tier yet they dont get servers willing to fight them in any tier and this wont change. those pugs wont suddenly become better if the more harcore player leave them. they just ignore the elitist server if it is in the matchup and have fun with the other. with this stacking and then bullying vabbi might even reduce overall players in WvW or you attract more and more pug bandwagoners that you then need to get rid off. so while the toxicity makes sense, your stacking is just stupid, you dont have anyone to fight and those pug servers wont improve much without more harcore people and fighting only other pugs while avoiding vabbi. that stacking makes zergfights in EU really a joke. you get rid of the pugs for your server but those pugs are still in the mode and the mode needs their numbers.

[Garrus.7403]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > > @"Terrier.8732" said:

> > > If all you want is good quality fights, then go to Obsidian sanctum with even numbered enemy pug groups.. you still get your PPK. It's not rocket science.

> > >

> >

> > We would go but no one wants to go with us. :( I wonder why?

> >

>

> but thats your seflmade issue by stacking.

> i do understand all this 'toxic' behaviour towards pugs that just want to leech, that makes sense so you can play the game coordinated within your group. but while doing that also stacking on one server you get yourselves the issue that you wont have anyone to fight against. etheri is right there are many leeching pugs infact so many they can fill tons of servers yet the more harcore players can maybe fill 1 or 2 servers. now vabbi has to -as etheri put it- bully one or two PPT servers, spawn camp them till they log off or they cant keep up with the PPT to stay in their tier yet they dont get servers willing to fight them in any tier and this wont change. those pugs wont suddenly become better if the more harcore player leave them. they just ignore the elitist server if it is in the matchup and have fun with the other. with this stacking and then bullying vabbi might even reduce overall players in WvW or you attract more and more pug bandwagoners that you then need to get rid off. so while the toxicity makes sense, your stacking is just stupid, you dont have anyone to fight and those pug servers wont improve much without more harcore people and fighting only other pugs while avoiding vabbi. that stacking makes zergfights in EU really a joke. you get rid of the pugs for your server but those pugs are still in the mode and the mode needs their numbers.

 

How is it the mistake of a grp of ppl who play together that EU wvw is dieing? In the past there were more organized grps like the ones on vabbi or wsr. Can you blame some ppl who play together for more than 4 years for playing together? No one on vabbi/wsr asked for over 9000 pugs to join your raids. The ppl I know just wanna have fun with ppl who they know for so long and who want to organize for teamplay. Because wvw is a teambased mode. Its for sure not the mistake of wsr or vabbi that there are no other grps who try to organize and get better at the game. For sure ppl come to a good server because its the ez way. Would you ask Ronaldo to play for your local football club with ppl who are not on his level infact far below his level? I guess not. First of all he would never do it for the money but he also would not do it because it would be so boring for him. If other players would step up and organize themselves you would not have so many players on wsr or vabbi.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > > > @"Terrier.8732" said:

> > > > If all you want is good quality fights, then go to Obsidian sanctum with even numbered enemy pug groups.. you still get your PPK. It's not rocket science.

> > > >

> > >

> > > We would go but no one wants to go with us. :( I wonder why?

> > >

> >

> > but thats your seflmade issue by stacking.

> > i do understand all this 'toxic' behaviour towards pugs that just want to leech, that makes sense so you can play the game coordinated within your group. but while doing that also stacking on one server you get yourselves the issue that you wont have anyone to fight against. etheri is right there are many leeching pugs infact so many they can fill tons of servers yet the more harcore players can maybe fill 1 or 2 servers. now vabbi has to -as etheri put it- bully one or two PPT servers, spawn camp them till they log off or they cant keep up with the PPT to stay in their tier yet they dont get servers willing to fight them in any tier and this wont change. those pugs wont suddenly become better if the more harcore player leave them. they just ignore the elitist server if it is in the matchup and have fun with the other. with this stacking and then bullying vabbi might even reduce overall players in WvW or you attract more and more pug bandwagoners that you then need to get rid off. so while the toxicity makes sense, your stacking is just stupid, you dont have anyone to fight and those pug servers wont improve much without more harcore people and fighting only other pugs while avoiding vabbi. that stacking makes zergfights in EU really a joke. you get rid of the pugs for your server but those pugs are still in the mode and the mode needs their numbers.

>

> How is it the mistake of a grp of ppl who play together that EU wvw is dieing? In the past there were more organized grps like the ones on vabbi or wsr. Can you blame some ppl who play together for more than 4 years for playing together? No one on vabbi/wsr asked for over 9000 pugs to join your raids. The ppl I know just wanna have fun with ppl who they know for so long and who want to organize for teamplay. Because wvw is a teambased mode. Its for sure not the mistake of wsr or vabbi that there are no other grps who try to organize and get better at the game. For sure ppl come to a good server because its the ez way. Would you ask Ronaldo to play for your local football club with ppl who are not on his level infact far below his level? I guess not. First of all he would never do it for the money but he also would not do it because it would be so boring for him. If other players would step up and organize themselves you would not have so many players on wsr or vabbi.

 

i said it is your fault you wont get anyone to fight not in near future and not in any time ahead as long as you keep bein stacked. it is your fault that there are no other servers that can keep up with you and provide you with fights, because you stacked. i just want you to realize that those bad pugs that wont play coordinated will not suddenly do so only cause you guys stacked there. but while this is a team mode it is also **World vs World vs World** wich means your game experience doesnt just depent on your team but also on your opponents. IMO you will have the most fun in rather balanced fights, but the skill level is not balanced as soon as vabbi is in the match. you dont have to be good to have fun fights if your opponent is bad aswell. sure everyone wants to win so you keep trying to improve and stacking surely made vabbi a pretty strong server, yet now it is your very own fault you have no one to fight against.

i just think vabbi as a server is stupid and i really fail to understand how they can be so shortsighted to only care for their team and not also for the other 2 teams that will affect their game experience. this makes zergfights pretty stupid on vabbi and against vabbi, wich indeed can affect people to quit the game out of boredom.

[Etheri.2654]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > > @"Terrier.8732" said:

> > > If all you want is good quality fights, then go to Obsidian sanctum with even numbered enemy pug groups.. you still get your PPK. It's not rocket science.

> > >

> >

> > We would go but no one wants to go with us. :( I wonder why?

> >

>

> but thats your seflmade issue by stacking.

> i do understand all this 'toxic' behaviour towards pugs that just want to leech, that makes sense so you can play the game coordinated within your group. but while doing that also stacking on one server you get yourselves the issue that you wont have anyone to fight against. etheri is right there are many leeching pugs infact so many they can fill tons of servers yet the more harcore players can maybe fill 1 or 2 servers. now vabbi has to -as etheri put it- bully one or two PPT servers, spawn camp them till they log off or they cant keep up with the PPT to stay in their tier yet they dont get servers willing to fight them in any tier and this wont change. those pugs wont suddenly become better if the more harcore player leave them. they just ignore the elitist server if it is in the matchup and have fun with the other. with this stacking and then bullying vabbi might even reduce overall players in WvW or you attract more and more pug bandwagoners that you then need to get rid off. so while the toxicity makes sense, your stacking is just stupid, you dont have anyone to fight and those pug servers wont improve much without more harcore people and fighting only other pugs while avoiding vabbi. that stacking makes zergfights in EU really a joke. you get rid of the pugs for your server but those pugs are still in the mode and the mode needs their numbers.

 

Let's start with some basics : hardcore players playing with the pugs doesn't make them better if they aren't willing to learn. This is the core issue - most players have no interest in improving. They have an interest in WINNING. These are different things. Many of elitists are good because they care about improving and playing better; not just winning. This is a very different attitude.

 

Players who aren't interested in improving will not. These players are not going to provide challenging fights, ever. It doesn't matter if we're on their server or another server. It doesnt' matter if they have 20 hardcore players leading them or not. They won't improve much, and they won't provide fights we consider worthwhile. It remains a clownfiesta. Perhaps a more even, balanced clownfiesta but still a clownfiesta.

 

We do get people to fight - other stacking servers. And this plea is to them; if you want to create an environment where improvement and coordination are possible then you'll need to be elitist to those who refuse to improve & coordinate yet insist on joining. Without that, you'll attract the wrong crowd and most efforts will be futile. This makes good, balanced fights exceptionally rare - yes. But it allows them to still happen. It allows us to have organised fights in which coordination and team play ACTUALLY matter. In which strategy exists.

 

And this existed a LOT more in the past, even on servers which didn't have very good strategies or coordination. They'd still try. They'd still talk about it. They'd still have the organisation and coordination to attempt, even if they weren't the best. That's why the differences in skill between servers weren't as massive.

 

So what this creates - which happens on both EU and NA anyways, btw - is 2 types of groups. Lets call them PPT and PPK, with hugely different preferences in style of play. I'd rather have balanced servers where everyone has a bit of each; constant good matchups and reasons to work with and improve with my teammates; but that won't happen. The choice is balanced permanent clownfiesta with no options for high end fights and a lot of frustration for whoever leads, usually followed by general inactivity or stacking servers and trying to create matchups which allow occasionally good fights. Yes - they are rare; but they exist at least.

 

Unless the community decides to be more respectful of those that lead them, follow and their wishes across the board; which won't happen; I doubt most veteran groups have any interest to be the core of a real server. They've been alienated from the rest of the game so many times for such dumb reasons that frankly; most of them just stick to their own groups. Most commanders rather quit.

 

Bullying PPT servers is literally playing their game. It's us PPT'ing better than they can by using our strength (being better at fighting) to win at their game (PPT). If we don't do this, our players are the ones who log off instead out of pure boreddom and the PPT servers happily karmatrain; only to get bullied by another PPT server with more coverage the week after. It's not like the PPT servers come out and fight us open field, even numbers, without siege or fair and square.

 

And to those pretend it's a hugely uneven fight... have you tried to cap a defended T3 garri? Have you tried to take a T3 full supplied garri with 70 PPTers inside? It takes literally hours. Drain the keep. Kill the siege. Open it. Get inside, kill players until you wipe, repeat for hours. Even if you're WAY stronger than the enemy group; you need to kill them by pushing (in a pirateship meta with bubbles) through several chokes under siegefire; killing the players and the siege; kililng the lord; preventing the lord from being ressed; killing everyone contesting while controlling the damage your group takes from all sides and they're continuously building new / more siege. You can't rerun any of your players while you generally need to kill each enemy player 3-5+ times before you can flip.

 

Defense is absurdly OP and has gotten buffed insane amounts to the point where players "are used to" having stuff they don't deserve.

 

And because I'd like to have more elitist servers capable of providing a challenge; spreading the elitism into clear camps of PPT and PPK which has been happening for years should be encouraged. It's clear that there is no interest in working together; nor a common ground or goal. The balance in servers is also completely off and has been for a long time. So why not promote splitting into different groups based on how players enjoy playing? Why not be elitist towards your prefered style of play? It's not like PPT oreinted servers haven't been elitist towards coordinated / fight guilds in the past too.

[MUDse.7623]

ofc those individuals wont become better with you on their server but with a more even distribution of skill level among the servers you would have more even blob fights with a mix of good and bad players - yes a clownfiesta. and also have on every server a couple guilds that you can fight with your guild for more coordinated fights.

the issue with creating stacked servers is that you cant make enough of those as the amount of more hardcore players is just too low for that. so you will end up with this rather uneven fights that are no fun for anyone. the only rather even fights are the clownfiesta between 2 servers with only pugs now. with toxicity you can maybe improve your server if you have enough hardcore players but with stacking you simply create an inbalance wich IMO leads to less fun.

 

> @"Etheri.2654" said:

> And to those pretend it's a hugely uneven fight... have you tried to cap a defended T3 garri? Have you tried to take a T3 full supplied garri with 70 PPTers inside? It takes literally hours. Drain the keep. Kill the siege. Open it. Get inside, kill players until you wipe, repeat for hours. Even if you're WAY stronger than the enemy group; you need to kill them by pushing (in a pirateship meta with bubbles) through several chokes under siegefire; killing the players and the siege; kililng the lord; preventing the lord from being ressed; killing everyone contesting while controlling the damage your group takes from all sides and they're continuously building new / more siege. You can't rerun any of your players while you generally need to kill each enemy player 3-5+ times before you can flip.

>

> Defense is absurdly OP and has gotten buffed insane amounts to the point where players "are used to" having stuff they don't deserve.

>

i know how strong defense is you can play against it with siege and supply management but that would probably take too much time for a server stacked with PPK people :)

it is doable quick but then it will hurt a little more. you say they have it while they dont deserve it, yet the only thing you bring that validates your claim on the objective is your superior fighting power, were is all the strategy and coordination there ? that would bore your people and take too much time for you. you also wouldnt run with an omniblob as it is not efficient enough if you were playing this mode coordinated. what you coordinate is fights, wich is a part of it but not all. if you would get everything because your stronger in a straight up fight, might aswell everything turn your color when you join the map.

> And because I'd like to have more elitist servers capable of providing a challenge; spreading the elitism into clear camps of PPT and PPK which has been happening for years should be encouraged. It's clear that there is no interest in working together; nor a common ground or goal. The balance in servers is also completely off and has been for a long time. So why not promote splitting into different groups based on how players enjoy playing? Why not be elitist towards your prefered style of play? It's not like PPT oreinted servers haven't been elitist towards coordinated / fight guilds in the past too.

but what is that leading to ? you still wont get strong servers you can fight. just the little bit of PPK crowed on the other server if they split from their PPT guys , you will overrun them easily 70 vs 5-10. while the PPT guys keep dodging you. it would make sense if all servers would be rather balanced but as they are now ? why should they split their community?

 

[Lemoncurry.2345]

> @"Garrus.7403" said:

> Would you ask Ronaldo to play for your local football club with ppl who are not on his level infact far below his level? I guess not. First of all he would never do it for the money but he also would not do it because it would be so boring for him. If other players would step up and organize themselves you would not have so many players on wsr or vabbi.

Oh a football analogy. :) Sadly "stacking" is a problem there too in the EU. In Ligue 1 Paris Saint-Germain is dominating while in the Bundesliga Bayern München is pretty much fixed as the #1 every year, resulting in a lot of games being rather boring to watch. It is little better in the Primera División (3 top teams) and the Serie A (arguably 2-4 top teams). Only the Premier League has some variety and uncertain outcomes. In general just the few sides who enter the Champions League have all the money and collect the top players, making the gap between them and the weaker contestants bigger and bigger each year.

Across the big pond where the football isn't round, salary caps and a draft system are implemented to (at least in theory) give each team chances to win the Super Bowl. I like this system better!

 

 

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Garrus.7403" said:

> > > > @"Terrier.8732" said:

> > > > If all you want is good quality fights, then go to Obsidian sanctum with even numbered enemy pug groups.. you still get your PPK. It's not rocket science.

> > > >

> > >

> > > We would go but no one wants to go with us. :( I wonder why?

> > >

> >

> > but thats your seflmade issue by stacking.

> > i do understand all this 'toxic' behaviour towards pugs that just want to leech, that makes sense so you can play the game coordinated within your group. but while doing that also stacking on one server you get yourselves the issue that you wont have anyone to fight against. etheri is right there are many leeching pugs infact so many they can fill tons of servers yet the more harcore players can maybe fill 1 or 2 servers. now vabbi has to -as etheri put it- bully one or two PPT servers, spawn camp them till they log off or they cant keep up with the PPT to stay in their tier yet they dont get servers willing to fight them in any tier and this wont change. those pugs wont suddenly become better if the more harcore player leave them. they just ignore the elitist server if it is in the matchup and have fun with the other. with this stacking and then bullying vabbi might even reduce overall players in WvW or you attract more and more pug bandwagoners that you then need to get rid off. so while the toxicity makes sense, your stacking is just stupid, you dont have anyone to fight and those pug servers wont improve much without more harcore people and fighting only other pugs while avoiding vabbi. that stacking makes zergfights in EU really a joke. you get rid of the pugs for your server but those pugs are still in the mode and the mode needs their numbers.

>

> How is it the mistake of a grp of ppl who play together that EU wvw is dieing? In the past there were more organized grps like the ones on vabbi or wsr. Can you blame some ppl who play together for more than 4 years for playing together? No one on vabbi/wsr asked for over 9000 pugs to join your raids. The ppl I know just wanna have fun with ppl who they know for so long and who want to organize for teamplay. Because wvw is a teambased mode. Its for sure not the mistake of wsr or vabbi that there are no other grps who try to organize and get better at the game. For sure ppl come to a good server because its the ez way. Would you ask Ronaldo to play for your local football club with ppl who are not on his level infact far below his level? I guess not. First of all he would never do it for the money but he also would not do it because it would be so boring for him. If other players would step up and organize themselves you would not have so many players on wsr or vabbi.

 

I can’t help but to laugh at this comparison. The Ronaldos of WvW? That is so comical, and quite sad, at the same time.

 

[Terrier.8732]

@Garrus.7403 said: Would you ask Ronaldo to play for your local football club with ppl who are not on his level infact far below his level? I guess not. First of all he would never do it for the money but he also would not do it because it would be so boring for him. If other players would step up and organize themselves you would not have so many players on wsr or vabbi.

 

Great flawed analogy. An assumption is being made here that elite specialist sportspeople detest and look down upon others who may love the sport, but who do not perform at an elite level. Why isn't everyone who plays football an elite player? Cos maybe they are good at other things, and simply play something because they enjoy it. Maybe they are good parents, or good researchers, or good professionals in whatever they do. There is also an assumption being made here that people like Ronaldo are arrogant kittens who are so full of themselves they would never "lower" themselves to engage with ordinary people. That's a bit unfair and narrow, don't you think?

 

If "pvp style fight players" want a better wvw, with less toxicity, they might think of unstacking their servers and being less toxic. In theory, a good "alliance" composition should contain a variety of guild/player strengths and styles. WvW is essentially a game of strategy on every level, both PPT and PPK. One big chess game.. and in chess, you have more than just Queens and pawns.