Weaver and vitality

[yumee.1405]

Hi there!

 

Since last updates, I'm trying to make a proper build to wvw on my ele.

I didn't change my build over the last 2 year cause .. it just worked for me so I was lazy changing gears to get 1% more damage.

 

But with the trait change on weaver grand master I decided to improve my build to get the most of this change (the change being worth, useless and all or not isn't my problem here).

 

SO! I checked a lot of things and ... I wanted to synergise the trait "master's fortitude" with "Element of rage". But, it doesn't work!

I mean, it does up my vitality but that up doesn't apply the vitality up to ferocity.

 

So my question is >** Is it a bug or does Anet want to prevent this synergy between traits?**

 

I'm a bit confused, since it's the only traits that improves vitality, I couldn't try with any other traits.

If someone, or even someone from anet could tell me why you chose to do things this way?

[steki.1478]

Conversion traits only work with permanent bonuses, like gear stats.

[Feanor.2358]

It's also useless to invest in Vit for the purpose of EoR. You won't gain nearly as much damage as you lose by investing in Vit.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It's also useless to invest in Vit for the purpose of EoR. You won't gain nearly as much damage as you lose by investing in Vit.

 

True in a PvE sense. Yet marauder eles have higher and more consistent DPS than full zerk ones in WvW quite often; because vitality does net you more damage if the enemy is fighting back. Obviously this can't be optimized rigorously as with PvE where defensives don't really exist.

[cgMatt.5162]

They are better off just making it a flat 250 ferocity gain +10% damage modifier because their vitality stat is just that bad.

[Jski.6180]

Its weird they have made weaver a vit base class why a dmg aimed class seems to be more base off its vit dose not fit a mages ideal at all.

[yumee.1405]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It's also useless to invest in Vit for the purpose of EoR. You won't gain nearly as much damage as you lose by investing in Vit.

 

As Etheri said and as I wrote, it's a wvw build I'm working on and I love full zerker but ... anything can os me with 11k HP and I want a build that allows me at least one mistake or an intelligent opponent x)

That's why I look at the use of vitality.

+ the first trait in weaver doesn't give much in wvw so I was looking if I could get more more master's fortitude ^^"

 

But I agree on a pve pov. But that's not my point.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> Its weird they have made weaver a vit base class why a dmg aimed class seems to be more base off its vit dose not fit a mages ideal at all.

It would seem as though the devs wanted to nerf the effectiveness of this trait (EoR) in some manner. I’m going to jump the boat and assume the recent nerf wave was to support the next elite spec which will most likely be biased to power elementalists. This is a rash, fast assumption by looking at certain things that weaver has brought from the beginning - a heavily hybrid sword, Primordal Stance - which is more effective with condi dmg and Weave Self - which blatantly has +20% condi dmg and ignores power dmg.

 

If we jump too many boats and assume that Weaver was designed to be a condi espec, wouldn’t that mean EoR would scale off condi dmg or expertise (in which power builds have 0) or grant some other bonus other than ferocity? What other stat is there; precision (which would actually work really well with this trait, except it copies the thief trait too much)? Toughness? And would the devs really force power eles to use tempest, who does *a pitiful* 31k dps?

 

Assuming the condi weaver design and next elite to be actually power oriented, I think that it’s great having EoR (and Weaver in general) work for both power and condi builds, also that doesn’t just scream ‘power’ or ‘condi’ by using a stat (vit) that may or may not be used by both dmg pathways. Now we just need to pray **excessively** that the devs stop nerfing core ele and actually release a good power elite spec.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > Its weird they have made weaver a vit base class why a dmg aimed class seems to be more base off its vit dose not fit a mages ideal at all.

> It would seem as though the devs wanted to nerf the effectiveness of this trait (EoR) in some manner. I’m going to jump the boat and assume the recent nerf wave was to support the next elite spec which will most likely be biased to power elementalists. This is a rash, fast assumption by looking at certain things that weaver has brought from the beginning - a heavily hybrid sword, Primordal Stance - which is more effective with condi dmg and Weave Self - which blatantly has +20% condi dmg and ignores power dmg.

>

> If we jump too many boats and assume that Weaver was designed to be a condi espec, wouldn’t that mean EoR would scale off condi dmg or expertise (in which power builds have 0) or grant some other bonus other than ferocity? What other stat is there; precision (which would actually work really well with this trait, except it copies the thief trait too much)? Toughness? And would the devs really force power eles to use tempest, who does *a pitiful* 31k dps?

>

> Assuming the condi weaver design and next elite to be actually power oriented, I think that it’s great having EoR (and Weaver in general) work for both power and condi builds, also that doesn’t just scream ‘power’ or ‘condi’ by using a stat (vit) that may or may not be used by both dmg pathways. Now we just need to pray **excessively** that the devs stop nerfing core ele and actually release a good power elite spec.

 

Why are you talking about condi and weaver being a condi spec?

The traitline in question gives a POWER dps modifier. It doesn't even buff condi. Ferocity and increased damage only apply to direct damage. So frankly this has nothing to do with power or condi or god knows what. Converting power; a DPS' weavers main stat into more ferocity at a high conversion is too strong. It encourages the problematic "all out DPS build" while hurting any builds which don't go full "all out DPS".

 

The new trait nerfs balanced builds used in WvW and PvP "less" than nerfing the pure power / DPS ones used in PvE. As such it brings weaver closer to a balanced state, and less likely to be problematic in teh future. It's also a nerf directed at weaver, not other ele specs.

 

If you're actually high "condi", there is no reason to use EoR as it doesn't give any damage. Weaver is still a great power elite spec. It quite literally has power DPS modifiers or crit modifiers in every single trait line...

 

@"yumee.1405" builds.vabbi.eu are fairly balanced WvW builds. If you need more tankiness, replace any zerk parts with additional marauder. There's nothing wrong with going full marauder for WvW, it's a suprisingly small DPS loss because of the stat increase and the ability to distribute the stats more effectively (for weaver.)

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> Why are you talking about condi and weaver being a condi spec?

> The traitline in question gives a POWER dps modifier. It doesn't even buff condi. Ferocity and increased damage only apply to direct damage. So frankly this has nothing to do with power or condi or god knows what. Converting power; a DPS' weavers main stat into more ferocity at a high conversion is too strong. It encourages the problematic "all out DPS build" while hurting any builds which don't go full "all out DPS".

>

> The new trait nerfs balanced builds used in WvW and PvP "less" than nerfing the pure power / DPS ones used in PvE. As such it brings weaver closer to a balanced state, and less likely to be problematic in teh future. It's also a nerf directed at weaver, not other ele specs.

> If you're actually high "condi", there is no reason to use EoR as it doesn't give any damage. Weaver is still a great power elite spec. It quite literally has power DPS modifiers or crit modifiers in every single trait line...

 

Didn’t I say I was purposely ‘jumping too many boats’ (making too many conclusions) about weaver being a condi spec? I even called my post ‘a rash, fast assumption’... basically, I was trying (very badly) to pull up an answer to the question I had directly quoted (in which we answered similarly, just that I beat around the bush afterwards xD). Also, because it’s the only dmg trait from the other options, condi dps builds would still take it regardless, especially the viper stat which can still use it to some better extent.

 

Continuing on my (rash and fast) assumption streak, I would compare weaver to the berserker espec line which still supports both condi and power even now. With the release of the Spellbreaker, the power Berserker fell behind and perhaps this may be reflected with ele? Most of us, if not all, don’t quite understand where the devs plan to take elementalist with the recent nerfs, so people like me come up with far-fetched ideas to justify the anet’s decisions (like this one). It’s not that you and others are expecting the next espec **not** to be potentially the next power ele benchmark master, right?

[Noodle Ant.1605]

Screw my last post if you will. I’m gonna take proper stab at answering the OP.

 

EoR was flawed in the fact how it got better the more power you loaded up on, like Etheri said. Instead, another stat needed to be used in place of power. It couldn’t be a void stat - a stat that starts at 0 at lv 80, and the devs (if I may assume) thought that using precision (like I suggested) was pretty much the same as using power; power builds already stack both stats to high amounts compared to the more ‘mixed’ builds (e.g. celestial).

 

Between the choice of toughness and vitality, the devs went for vit as it’s pretty much the go-to defensive stat for eles simply because they lack in HP. For the OP’s suggestion, the trait gives roughly 300 vit at best (a hybrid build + sword) and even if it did synergise, it would - just to not very much effect either way (13% of <300 = <39 fero, ~2.5% crit dmg, prob just more than 2% with power, with a sword? ~1% with power staff?).

 

You’d still run Master’s Fortitude if you want a ~1.3k hp blanket but equipping marauder gear is where the real vit will come in to play.

 

> @"cgMatt.5162" said:

> They are better off just making it a flat 250 ferocity gain +10% damage modifier because their vitality stat is just that bad.

The devs seemingly want eles to actually build to utilise the trait in an effective manner.

[Jski.6180]

You would think weaver would be a precision base class as weaver something takes a lot of hand eye coronation. I guess vit works in a way if your talking about someone who is weaver stabs them self alot during it lol.

 

[yumee.1405]

@"Noodle Ant.1605" Well Yeah it seems to be the thing, but then master's fortitude shouldn't say they up vitality but directly health pool so it doesn't gets my hopes up by thinking traits could work together ^^"

 

@"Etheri.5406" Thanks for the links, I already knows it as I know you ^^" I wasn't asking for a build to start with but just a question about trait synergy that doesn't seems to exist ^^"

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> Its weird they have made weaver a vit base class why a dmg aimed class seems to be more base off its vit dose not fit a mages ideal at all.

 

How would you define "a mage" though? Even at far back as First edition D&D, you can create effective Melee based "mages" with access to the right types of defense enchantments, and combining spells which work good together at point blank ranges. You have think at least as far as the edge of the box.

 

The Vit benefits on Weaver exist to offset the inevitable stray hit or two melee builds will encounter during most fights. If you've only ever played staff or scepter Ele, I can understand you wouldn't know about the once godly Celestial D/D Ele builds. But don't confuse "benefits from" to be "based mostly on". Scrapper can benefit from Toughness, but its builds aren't "based off toughness".

[Glacial.9516]

Just to play devil's advocate one could argue that Vitality has more value on Elementalist than it does on Mesmer or Necromancer (to compare Light armor classes) because our base HP is so low. 500 Vitality on an Ele is about a 50% increase in HP, while Mesmer is around 33% and Necro 25%. I don't particularly like EoR scaling off of Vitality and I'm not in favor of that change but scaling off power was a bit much - I can't defend a trait that gave 400 ferocity and 10% increased damage. I would like the new EoR a lot more if it had benefited from the Weaver sword trait for synergy, but that would affect a lot more than just EoR.

[Jski.6180]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > Its weird they have made weaver a vit base class why a dmg aimed class seems to be more base off its vit dose not fit a mages ideal at all.

>

> How would you define "a mage" though? Even at far back as First edition D&D, you can create effective Melee based "mages" with access to the right types of defense enchantments, and combining spells which work good together at point blank ranges. You have think at least as far as the edge of the box.

>

> The Vit benefits on Weaver exist to offset the inevitable stray hit or two melee builds will encounter during most fights. If you've only ever played staff or scepter Ele, I can understand you wouldn't know about the once godly Celestial D/D Ele builds. But don't confuse "benefits from" to be "based mostly on". Scrapper can benefit from Toughness, but its builds aren't "based off toughness".

 

Something that use magic to def it self not its own phical self. Vit for the most part is a phical self unless they add in vit on focies much like there def on the shield.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"yumee.1405" said:

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" Well Yeah it seems to be the thing, but then master's fortitude shouldn't say they up vitality but directly health pool so it doesn't gets my hopes up by thinking traits could work together ^^

Believe or not, there is some synergy between these two traits. It just doesn't work like you think. You see, I was thinking about the Guardian's trait, [Force of Will](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Force_of_Will "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Force_of_Will") which increases vitality by 300, which is also considered in the secondary outgoing heal effect. Because of this, I was thinking 'Why doesn't Master's Fortitude + Elements of Rage work like that?' The thing is, the 300 vitality from Force of Will is a flat bonus, added directly to the stats. THIS also is the case with Master's Fortitude + Elements of Rage, except as you probably know, the flat bonus only comes from equipping a sword.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> The devs seemingly want eles to actually build to utilise the trait in an effective manner.

 

Except the effective way to utilize the trait is to still run full zerk. It was just a random nerf.

[yumee.1405]

Oh true, so only the vit from the sword synergise but not the vitality converted. Sad but ok I understand ^^

[Oogabooga.3812]

Well I've been trying out Valkyrie stats in WVW and can report that I still die in 2 shots from an auto attacking soulbeast. Each hit was over 9k.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > The devs seemingly want eles to actually build to utilise the trait in an effective manner.

>

> Except the effective way to utilize the trait is to still run full zerk. It was just a random nerf.

It’s a full on damage trait. To be fair, most damage traits are only used best by the most offensive setups - the more dmg you do, the more the mods effect the numbers. A question that could be phrased from this though is: would it be better to leave it as a 13% conversion, or just have it as +150 ferocity, or yet still, remove the bonus and just leave the 10% mod by itself, while unnerfing/buffing other parts of elementalist? I can agree that it’s hit the dps weavers hard (used to give ~24% crit dmg, now gives ~8%, so -16%, cuz math emphasises things) - with no real compensation to boot (besides more nerfs, sry ‘buffs’ that ‘frontloaded’ ele dmg :no_mouth:).

[Jski.6180]

If EoR was just a nerf why not just drop the % scaling off of power? It would be nice if EoR had a condi component to it as well. The other 2 GM need work to make them also worth running.

[SnowHawk.3615]

> @"yumee.1405" said:

> Hi there!

>

> Since last updates, I'm trying to make a proper build to wvw on my ele.

> I didn't change my build over the last 2 year cause .. it just worked for me so I was lazy changing gears to get 1% more damage.

>

> But with the trait change on weaver grand master I decided to improve my build to get the most of this change (the change being worth, useless and all or not isn't my problem here).

>

> SO! I checked a lot of things and ... I wanted to synergise the trait "master's fortitude" with "Element of rage". But, it doesn't work!

> I mean, it does up my vitality but that up doesn't apply the vitality up to ferocity.

>

> So my question is >** Is it a bug or does Anet want to prevent this synergy between traits?**

>

> I'm a bit confused, since it's the only traits that improves vitality, I couldn't try with any other traits.

> If someone, or even someone from anet could tell me why you chose to do things this way?

 

It is not a bug, they just don't care.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> If EoR was just a nerf why not just drop the % scaling off of power? It would be nice if EoR had a condi component to it as well. The other 2 GM need work to make them also worth running.

 

To make it look useful.

 

On a more serious note, to allow some sort of synergy. But you'll always end up being suboptimal if you build for that synergy.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Oogabooga.3812" said:

> Well I've been trying out Valkyrie stats in WVW and can report that I still die in 2 shots from an auto attacking soulbeast. Each hit was over 9k.

 

Never ever spec valkyrie on weaver. It's a sign of awful optimization unless you run some sort of meme arcana build... Which is still a sign of poor optimization.

Valkery is strictly worse than marauder on ele archetypes.