Necro underperforming in all areas?

[Luca.4670]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Luca.4670" said:

> > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > @"Luca.4670" said:

> > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > @"Luca.4670" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Luca.4670" said:

> > > > > > > > > DL build for spvp wasnt oppressive, very fair and balanced, now got trashed by stupid dhummfire nerf lol also in wvw condi scourge want oppresive since meta scourges used to run power builds. Bad balance is bad.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You can't talk about meta if you don't know or grasp the meta. Cele and condi was far better than power with dhuumfire.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think you dont know the meta lol, even before the dhummfire nerfs many necros used to run power builds. What kills the zergs/blobs wasnt the condis. Power spike/bomb is what kills zergs/blobs thats why ppl wanted power builds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As I was saying, you don't know what you're talking about. Power necro was strictly worse than cele, even if many scrubs play it. Dhuumfire was a major fraction of their damage and the new power scourges don't come close. Power damage was already prevalent, but mostly because of weaver and rev and not because of power scourge. The value of your scourges was already corrupts; and if you're traiting into CORRUPTS instead of into POWER DPS - then cele with dhuumfire was vastly better spike + corrupt than full power builds. The only power builds that can compete are those that drop the corrupts in favor of DPS modifiers - which turns scourges into bad weavers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But by all means, keep talking crusadin' for your scourge. Even without dhuumfire; scourge remains a dominant class in WvW and needs absolutely no buffs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Man, I play wvw since always. I still play competitive wvw with my guild. I know what im talking about. I used to played cele build with curse, then i went full grieving. I traded power spike for condi spike. Tell me, why i should not have good condi pressure?cause some scrub cant dodge aoe and deal with condis?also i didnt say power builds used spite. There were power builds that used curse for corruption and went pretty well cause what all zerg/blob want is spike/bomb and ofc corrupt. So stop saying "you dont know what you are taling about". I have almost 5 years of gw2 and could embarass someone with my knowledge :)

> > > >

> > > > You know what you're talking about; yet you say your "power" grieving build (???) doesn't use spite (???). In fact, even your power and cele builds don't use spite (???).

> > > >

> > > > I'mma give you some tips : the meta was cele with SPITE and the corruption trait; instead of curses. Many players were already going spite + curses. The meta now is spite + curses, probably more geared towards power as the condi application is gone. Even power plays with SPITE for the corrupt proc. Full grieving is neither a power build, nor a meta build.

> > > >

> > > > I'll be dropping out of this discussion. Feel free to drop the name of your competitive guild, especially if it's in EU. ;)

> > >

> > > Grieving WAS my PERSONAL build before SS nerfs (i dont play scourge since SS nerf). Cause no reason to put points in toughness and vit for me. I had the highest dps. So i clearly know what im talking about. There are ppl like me that dont just "copypaste" the meta. I try to overcome the meta. My build was very succesful, risky but worked before the SS nerf ofc. Also soul reaping was competitive since lf regen cd reduction of F skills and ofc dhumfire, but hey you are biased so whatever.

> >

> > "Hey I run a full squishy build that I say is risky; but it does more damage than the tankier balanced build so I clearly know what I'm talking about and am revolutionizing the meta".

> >

> > BRB REROLLING ZERK WEAVER. Oh also; I'm top DPS every time so I know what I'm talking about. I'm outta here.

>

> Ppl arguing with DPS in wvw lul.

> Where arc spa isn't working properly.

>

> And yes right now Condi scourge is literally trash and only good in even higher numbers, but since there are a lot of Eles nowadays, you have to run power. And I'm not speaking about kitten cele with spite, that's no real power. That's still hybrid.

> Power doesn't have any Condi dmg.

 

He did not understand my point. I was just trying to convey that scourge had "several" meta builds, not just 1 like he implies, before massive nerfs. Dhumfire nerf killed build diversity,- Oh but scourge was based around condi, now not anymore. Meh.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Luca.4670" said:

> > @"Marxx.5021" said:

> > For me the last patch broke scourge in PvP. It is not just about nerfing sustain again and again. At the same time burst builds (thief, mesmer) got buffed. It looks like balancing is now 90% about PvE and 10% about WvW. That new one shot meta is really bad for necro. Other than positioning and dodge necro has no defense mechanic like any other class to deal with 20k+ bursts.

>

> +1. There was NO reason to nerf Dhumfire. Also no reason to buff even further braindead burst builds (did core guard in pvp really needed a buff), but since bronze/silver scrubs keep dying from scourge then they kept complain and now scourge is very suboptimal (it was already suboptimal aftet the SS nerf, cause you needed SKILL to perform well with it). If ppl think the dhuumfire nerf in pvp was justified, its cause they suck very bad at pvp and never played plat games as scourge, i guess.

 

If Dhummfire was strong to start with I would have been ok with a nerf then again i dont really play scourge. but imo

Dhummfire underperforms on core for a grand master its very weak with life blast slow attacking speed.

Dhummfire performs decently on reaper because the auto attacks are faster granted you have to be in melee

Dhummfire was actually over performing on scourge because of every shade skill was treated as Manifest Sand Shade which was applying burn from range quicker than reaper could apply it at melee (on a support spec vs a brawler one) which actually made no sense.

 

They could have solved this by not proc'ing MSS on each shade skill.

Or

They could have left Dhummfire as is for reaper , Buffed it on core when not used with an espec, and adjusted durations to be shorter for scourge.

I find it insane that they can do number changes and cooldown adjustmetns for several traits when scourge is used but cant buff them when no e spec is used for general necro which needs number adjustments badly.

 

It just shows how bad of a design scourge is honestly. -WaitingForRework-

[Anchoku.8142]

Yes, I agree Scourge is not working out the way I had hoped. Barrier, as a temporary over-boost for health, is theoretically useful but the mechanic does not fit as smoothly into the game as I feel it should.

 

If barrier was really a success, Scourge could have a 10k dps support build and be welcomed in the raid meta. The health over-boost is just not that attractive. If too much damage is being taken by groups, many professions can be rebuilt for more sustain and group support. To me, that means the barrier concept is unnecessary; I.e., there is no need for that mechanic. If there was, almost any dps would be acceptable for improving barrier strength and up-time.

 

Think about that when you consider alacrity. Barrier is a failure in comparison.

[Patrick.2987]

Would work if there were bosses that hit for % of players health up to 100% so you need to get over 100% health when not able to evade.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Yes, I agree Scourge is not working out the way I had hoped. Barrier, as a temporary over-boost for health, is theoretically useful but the mechanic does not fit as smoothly into the game as I feel it should.

>

> If barrier was really a success, Scourge could have a 10k dps support build and be welcomed in the raid meta. The health over-boost is just not that attractive. If too much damage is being taken by groups, many professions can be rebuilt for more sustain and group support. To me, that means the barrier concept is unnecessary; I.e., there is no need for that mechanic. If there was, almost any dps would be acceptable for improving barrier strength and up-time.

>

> Think about that when you consider alacrity. Barrier is a failure in comparison.

 

The way to solve this would to to be to introduce a trait which allowed scourge applied barriers to linger for a very long duration. Considering they are the e spec that really introduced the idea of barrier into the game it makes no sense that they dont have better traits to improve it.

 

I would suggest traits to make barriers applied grant slightly less barrier on application ,say a 20% reduction, but the barrier takes two, three, maybe even four times longer to expire. Meaning that scourge could over heal players and upkeep that investment. In my opinion barrier expires too fast for scourge to up keep it in generous amounts which makes it not worth very much.

 

I understand that anet was scared about how much sustain scourge could provide barrier as we didnt want another HoT meta were everyone was too tanky. So they instead invested in kill potential with their supports this round and it shows with firebrand and early scourge.

How ever what we ended up with was supports doing more damage than the brawlers, duelist, and assassins roles. If it was up to me i would fix the current supports we have in the game and not add a single one in the future from this point on. Its clear that its a struggle to balance support roles properly. They end up too tanky to the point that it takes 3 people to kill them or they end up doing the more damage than professions that have assassin, brawling, raw damage roles.

 

As for end game pve anet needs to figure out what they want to do to scourge and core necro in general. We dont need another e spec thats designed with the idea of solving all of necros problems via overloaded profession mechanics and traitline with a very basic design like scourge was.

 

I want e specs to provide different ways to play the profession i love not something that was suppose to act as a big bandaid coverup thats now being peeled back due to imbalance issues. Thank god reaper didnt have it this bad during living world between HoT up to PoF.

[Dadnir.5038]

The issue with the longer barrier idea is that barrier become better the more source of barrier you got. This would lead to the same kind of problems that ended up gutting _epidemic_.

 

Barrier could be a good mean of personnal defense but I don't think it was wise to make it a primary mean of support.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> So epidemic used for epi bounce in RAIDS ? nerf epidemic in all game modes, make that skill trash everywhere.

> Scourge used in group fights in wvw, ok nerf it also in pve where is already really bad.

>

> Skill split.

 

Not really, it was used on 1 boss cm by speed clearers, and some people got upset over it and called for nerfs. Basically a niche within a niche of a niche called for nerfs to it. Don't get me wrong, it was used in raids, just rarely as you aren't guaranteed 2 necros in pugs.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> The issue with the longer barrier idea is that barrier become better the more source of barrier you got. This would lead to the same kind of problems that ended up gutting _epidemic_.

>

> Barrier could be a good mean of personnal defense but I don't think it was wise to make it a primary mean of support.

 

Maybe but at this point it just sounds like necro cant have anything and that scourge simply needs a rework to either be raw support or not a support at all.

 

Considering it has the most barrier sharing applications and continues to get its damage reduced it has not yet seen an increase to supportive power. This is one idea that could quickly lead to them having something unique to support with. The only issue i see with it is in pvp and wvw the duration that barrier last would obviously need to be different from what it would be in pve. In Pve though there is no harm in having longer barrier durations.

 

Keep in mind that epidemic was used as a damage burst boosting tool where as barrier is purely defensive. Even if you take 2 scourges barrier already has a max cap and while it will provide some ease and possibly protection from being whiped in end game content. It wont make you clear it in world record breaking speeds.

 

The difference between your theory with epidemic and the idea of a longer barrier duration is that epidemic had no caps/limits set to keep it in check while barrier already does.

[Anchoku.8142]

I am not sure exactly what to suggest to improve Scourge but do feel like the specialization should be tunable for more group support at a loss of personal dps.

 

Investing heavily in sustain stat's and relying on utility weapons should scale up group support value as compensation for a very large loss of personal dps.

 

On the other end, a dps-Scourge should be fairly selfish with peak dps being adequate for what minimal group utility it has left.

 

Would anyone mind starting a thread to capture what we would like to see from Scourge? It seems like Scourge discussions inevitably turn toward dps builds and, for a specialization meant to provide meaningful group support, that suggests it is under-tuned for that task.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> I am not sure exactly what to suggest to improve Scourge but do feel like the specialization should be tunable for more group support at a loss of personal dps.

>

> Investing heavily in sustain stat's and relying on utility weapons should scale up group support value as compensation for a very large loss of personal dps.

>

> On the other end, a dps-Scourge should be fairly selfish with peak dps being adequate for what minimal group utility it has left.

>

> Would anyone mind starting a thread to capture what we would like to see from Scourge? It seems like Scourge discussions inevitably turn toward dps builds and, for a specialization meant to provide meaningful group support, that suggests it is under-tuned for that task.

 

Ideally it turns to dps because the scourge was introduced as a major top dps spec and no one cared to use it for support. Although that version of scourge was bugged for over a month people got used to its dps. Even after that fix it still did heavy damage and high pressure with its shades so now they continue to remove its damage but have not put a single drop of support power into the spec. This is why people only talk about its dps. IF the devs at least tossed a bone here and there between launch and the most recent patch at its supportive options people would invest time into playing around with support builds without considering mostly only dps.

 

So ideally its not the peoples fault that it always turns to a dps conversation.

 

Once they actually try throwing a few bones here and there at the support side of scourge we will see more relevant conversations related to actually supporting with scourge. Then again maybe they have some reworked planned but dont plan to tell anyone till the day before its going to be released.