How should chrono be nerfed?

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

 

Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

[Zaraki.5784]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

>

> Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

 

I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

> >

> > Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

>

> I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

 

Minstrel Firebrand is a good tank by the way. Actually, I was saying this from the start, if FB and Renegade could provide 10 man boons, they would be meta aswell. Because they take 2 spots in each subgroup so DPS is quite low. But if they could give 10 man boons we could see a FB/Renegade/Warrior meta.

 

Also, if they changed [Deadeye's Fire For Effect](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect) to a profession-specific buff which could compete with Druid or Warrior, we could also see a FB/Renegade/DE meta too. And the good thing is, they would be optional so people would be free to choose between running Chrono-druid-warrior or fb/rene/de.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

> >

> > Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

>

> I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

 

No, it's not. Every support build can put on minstrel gear and tank, without sacrificing their support. What tanks have to sacrifice is their damage, not their support. But there are only 2 support builds in the meta right now, so chrono is the tank. As to why chrono specifically and not druid, mesmer used to tank in zerker gear back then, because sword/shield was a very good weapon set for that job. So, back then you would have a point. But after the changes, chrono needed boon duration, and the concentration stat combos come with toughness already, so chrono was the natural choice for tanking, while druid could use condi gear and do some dps.

 

Chronotank is not what's stopping the meta from changing. If the alt comp becomes common place, a similar thing will occur. Renegade needs boon duration to provide alacrity and hurts its dps to stack might, so it's a natural choice for tanking, while FB can do some solid 25k dps and provide perma quickness and fury at the same time, due to the Firebrand runes. At the same time, you could still put FB in minstrel gear and mace/shield, and you have an excellent tank that provides the same quickness, along with other boons like aegis, stability, resistance, regen, almost 25 might and a lot of healing. So, as you see, FB not only doesn't lose their support, but actually becomes better at it by becoming tank and not caring about dps.

 

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

> > >

> > > Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

> >

> > I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

>

> Minstrel Firebrand is a good tank by the way. Actually, I was saying this from the start, if FB and Renegade could provide 10 man boons, they would be meta aswell. Because they take 2 spots in each subgroup so DPS is quite low. But if they could give 10 man boons we could see a FB/Renegade/Warrior meta.

>

> Also, if they changed [Deadeye's Fire For Effect](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect) to a profession-specific buff which could compete with Druid or Warrior, we could also see a FB/Renegade/DE meta too. And the good thing is, they would be optional so people would be free to choose between running Chrono-druid-warrior or fb/rene/de.

 

How would it be optional, though? People would want DE even with chrono/druid.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

> > > >

> > > > Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

> > >

> > > I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

> >

> > Minstrel Firebrand is a good tank by the way. Actually, I was saying this from the start, if FB and Renegade could provide 10 man boons, they would be meta aswell. Because they take 2 spots in each subgroup so DPS is quite low. But if they could give 10 man boons we could see a FB/Renegade/Warrior meta.

> >

> > Also, if they changed [Deadeye's Fire For Effect](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect) to a profession-specific buff which could compete with Druid or Warrior, we could also see a FB/Renegade/DE meta too. And the good thing is, they would be optional so people would be free to choose between running Chrono-druid-warrior or fb/rene/de.

>

> How would it be optional, though? People would want DE even with chrono/druid.

 

As long as they provide the same DPS gain overall, they would be optional.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > >

> > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > >

> > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> >

> > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> >

> > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> >

> > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

>

> SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

>

> Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

>

> And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

>

> The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

 

Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

 

**So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

 

I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

 

Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

[Crackmonster.2790]

It inherently doesn't make sense that any 1 class should always be required to get near maximum. This is the case with chrono, all your situations where you are afraid to lose power on chrono results in chrono required for any serious setup no matter group size.

 

The choice is simple if you wish to tackle that bad design - give others the same amount of benefits, reduce what chronos gets or a mix of both those.

 

It makes the most sense to spread boons out over various classes so that 2-4 classes can provide each of the powerful ones, this gives the most variable combinations of viable performance setups - in other words the least rigid and most free system with diverse demand for classes and more focus on the player performance.

 

Additionally, the support role is weird. If classes more readily can provide one and maaybe 2 core buffs to groups - this means you will now have a party where there are no one riding along because they can give passive buffs that are super-powerful and everyone have to work equally hard to optimize their performance at every single moment of keyspam. This is an equality principle.

 

If you really wanted to follow logic - the amount of other support tools chronos has should make it one of the classes that should share the least boonsharing if you wanted what classes provide to me more equal. You are trying to defend a situation that has reversed good common sense.

 

For the record, my main is chrono. I don't want it to suck, i just want roles freed up from this rigid system. The next target is getting rid of overpowered chronoplasma making chrono clunky as hell.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > > >

> > > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > > >

> > > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> > >

> > > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> > >

> > > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> > >

> > > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

> >

> > SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

> >

> > Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

> >

> > And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

> >

> > The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

>

> Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

> 1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

> Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

> 2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

> 3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

> 4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

> If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

>

> **So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

>

> I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

>

> Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

 

FB can provide the same boons, lacking only alacrity. Same for Renegade, lacking only quickness. It still comes down to the same bad design, either make it so that chrono has to choose between alacrity or quickness, or give the boon they lack to Renegade and FB. The former is probably more elegant, because it allows for more future support without having to give both quickness and alacrity to every spec each time.

 

Assassin's Presence only affects 5 people and power builds almost exclusively, while spirits affect 10 people. Also AP is just a bonus thing, while lack of Spotter means dpsers have to change their gear to be optimal. You are not getting Died to provide these as a Soulbeast, because people expect druid to provide them, that doesn't change the fact that without a druid,vthe optimal comp would be for a Soulbeast to sacrifice some personal dps for these buffs.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

> > > >

> > > > I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

> > >

> > > Minstrel Firebrand is a good tank by the way. Actually, I was saying this from the start, if FB and Renegade could provide 10 man boons, they would be meta aswell. Because they take 2 spots in each subgroup so DPS is quite low. But if they could give 10 man boons we could see a FB/Renegade/Warrior meta.

> > >

> > > Also, if they changed [Deadeye's Fire For Effect](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect) to a profession-specific buff which could compete with Druid or Warrior, we could also see a FB/Renegade/DE meta too. And the good thing is, they would be optional so people would be free to choose between running Chrono-druid-warrior or fb/rene/de.

> >

> > How would it be optional, though? People would want DE even with chrono/druid.

>

> As long as they provide the same DPS gain overall, they would be optional.

 

If DE had a buff similar to warrior's banners, why would I not bring both the warrior and the DE, and instead choose to only bring one? Unless the buffs didn't stack, it would be better to bring them both.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > > > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

> > > >

> > > > Minstrel Firebrand is a good tank by the way. Actually, I was saying this from the start, if FB and Renegade could provide 10 man boons, they would be meta aswell. Because they take 2 spots in each subgroup so DPS is quite low. But if they could give 10 man boons we could see a FB/Renegade/Warrior meta.

> > > >

> > > > Also, if they changed [Deadeye's Fire For Effect](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect) to a profession-specific buff which could compete with Druid or Warrior, we could also see a FB/Renegade/DE meta too. And the good thing is, they would be optional so people would be free to choose between running Chrono-druid-warrior or fb/rene/de.

> > >

> > > How would it be optional, though? People would want DE even with chrono/druid.

> >

> > As long as they provide the same DPS gain overall, they would be optional.

>

> If DE had a buff similar to warrior's banners, why would I not bring both the warrior and the DE, and instead choose to only bring one? Unless the buffs didn't stack, it would be better to bring them both.

 

If you did that you wouldn't want to bring a healer because that would be 5 slots occupied (4 if you run rev/fb because they already heal). That would surely be sub-optimal. And actually maybe for once rev/fb could be meta for speedclearing groups.

[yusayu.3629]

Since full-on supports should not exist in this game, Chrono should be focused on its power build. Allow them to share a single boon (maybe Quickness) for about 20-30% of the time (that way you would have to coordinate your burst with your team etc.) while having a higher uptime on themselves.

 

Full-on support classes are destroying the game, as they are bringing an unreasonable amount of power to any group, making them mandatory. In addition, the game was based on classes being self-sufficient and wanted to set itself apart from all the other games with a simple Holy Trinity. Right now, it's just worse than those games, because supports are mandatory (Chrono leading by about 100 miles), but there are so few support classes , that all raid groups just look the same. Again, rework support classes. Chrono - while the worst offender - is not the only one. Druids, Firebrands etc. also need to be changed.

[Roziel.5720]

> @"Cuddly.5340" said:

> Can I ask why we want to nerf the supports of the current meta?

> Don't we remember the times where it was actually a joke if you had anything but berserker gear, where you were kicked out of pugs for running anything else?

> With the latest patch we got so many new builds that may actually be viable.

> No matter what class you pick and genuinely enjoy, you're going to have multiple choices of viable builds to use in every game mode.

 

I think that is the larger issue here. that people are so worried about meta and gear that there are 'the best' options. Maybe raid level encounters should be structured in alternative ways to where gear/builds aren't quite so emphasized?

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

First. Chrono is now tanking because he loses the least. If there is a fight that actualy can kill the tank then other tanks will be viable (guardians and revenants are better at tanking then chrono)

 

Chrono brings most a actual dps to raids. That is true. Problem is that that dps is not done by you but by other players. That means if you have bad dps classes they cannot use your buffs and you might bring very low actual dps. Support classes cannot bring same dps to raids as dps classes because they have to count on teamates -> if they bring same dps support will never see play.

 

Maybe some of you guys havent played chrono but the rotation is not that free. Also sometimes you need to use spells reactively and then you need to calculate how to change your rotation so it will line up again. On the other hand some (not all) dps classes can just spam few buttons when they come on cd and get carried.

 

I think chrono shouldnt be nerfed since either It will be unplayable or nothing will change since there is no alternative. Lets give us OPTION of another role that can take chronos place (firebrand diesnt count since renegade always loses to druid and firebrand mantras dont select targets reliably)

 

Also the they that anet decides that support classes ruins the game is the day I stop playing. Without support raids are solo content that is done with 9 other solo players and that is boring to me.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > > > > It should be nerfed by removing all the support it gives while tanking, to make it on par with other classes who can just tank without offering anything more to that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Tanking is not a role. You can put druid in minstrel gear, and congratulations, you are now the tank. It's not like there's any real boss damage the tank has to mitigate, like it happens in other games.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know that very well, but do you know what is the class every squad want for tanking? Chrono, not druid in minstrel gear, nor anything else. It's because chrono gives huge support while tanking, so what I'm suggesting is: remove that huge support from chrono to make it on par with other possible tanks.

> > > > >

> > > > > Minstrel Firebrand is a good tank by the way. Actually, I was saying this from the start, if FB and Renegade could provide 10 man boons, they would be meta aswell. Because they take 2 spots in each subgroup so DPS is quite low. But if they could give 10 man boons we could see a FB/Renegade/Warrior meta.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, if they changed [Deadeye's Fire For Effect](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect) to a profession-specific buff which could compete with Druid or Warrior, we could also see a FB/Renegade/DE meta too. And the good thing is, they would be optional so people would be free to choose between running Chrono-druid-warrior or fb/rene/de.

> > > >

> > > > How would it be optional, though? People would want DE even with chrono/druid.

> > >

> > > As long as they provide the same DPS gain overall, they would be optional.

> >

> > If DE had a buff similar to warrior's banners, why would I not bring both the warrior and the DE, and instead choose to only bring one? Unless the buffs didn't stack, it would be better to bring them both.

>

> If you did that you wouldn't want to bring a healer because that would be 5 slots occupied (4 if you run rev/fb because they already heal). That would surely be sub-optimal. And actually maybe for once rev/fb could be meta for speedclearing groups.

 

You dont relise how powerful are banners. If you could get 2 warriors now for double banners i guarantee you thet that would be meta. Hell if banners stacked then meta would be all warriors instead of dps classes

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > > >

> > > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > > >

> > > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> > >

> > > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> > >

> > > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> > >

> > > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

> >

> > SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

> >

> > Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

> >

> > And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

> >

> > The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

>

> Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

> 1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

> Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

> 2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

> 3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

> 4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

> If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

>

> **So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

>

> I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

>

> Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

 

Chaos chrono provide maximum 18 might. In actual raid it is normal to be 14.

SoI is 1 might for 40 seconds every 20 seconds (2 perma might)

Lesser SoI is the same (2 perma might)

F1 5 might for 16 seconds every 8 seconds (10 might)

Between 2 lesser signet of inspiration you cast 3 phantasms (sometimes 4 depends on a shield block and signet of ether)

(That is 6-8 might)

22 maximum and dont forget that this count with 100% boon duration all tha time (which is not the case because of sigil of concentration) and also with casting spells exactly on cooldown which cannot be achieved in real raid

 

Edit: if chronoplasma proc this twice then you are right. That would be wierd but then with perfect rotation you might just get to 25 might. Just be carefoul that then you dont have sieze the moment so either you need to have timewarp or sigil that gives you alacrity on swap so you have quickness to share at the start of the fight.

 

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > > > >

> > > > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> > > >

> > > > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> > > >

> > > > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> > > >

> > > > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

> > >

> > > SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

> > >

> > > Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

> > >

> > > And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

> > >

> > > The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

> >

> > Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

> > 1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

> > Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

> > 2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

> > 3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

> > 4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

> > If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

> >

> > **So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

> >

> > I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

> >

> > Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

>

> Chaos chrono provide maximum 18 might. In actual raid it is normal to be 14.

> SoI is 1 might for 40 seconds every 20 seconds (2 perma might)

> Lesser SoI is the same (2 perma might)

> F1 5 might for 16 seconds every 8 seconds (10 might)

> Between 2 lesser signet of inspiration you cast 3 phantasms (sometimes 4 depends on a shield block and signet of ether)

> (That is 6-8 might)

> 22 maximum and dont forget that this count with 100% boon duration all tha time (which is not the case because of sigil of concentration) and also with casting spells exactly on cooldown which cannot be achieved in real raid

>

>

 

Brain fart on my end. I was thinking CP would proc II twice but CP isn't meta anymore. That being said, 14-18 is still a majority of a might stack for a build that still provides perma quickness and alacrity among many other boons. More importantly, it's enough that you don't actually need a dedicated might stacker anymore and makes it too oppressive by preventing other builds.

 

Arcane weaver self buffs and aoe buffs might. Scepter on any variant of guardian buffs might aoe. It's not like those extra might stacks cant be made up easily. with the meta DPS builds.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > > > > >

> > > > > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> > > > >

> > > > > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> > > > >

> > > > > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

> > > >

> > > > SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

> > > >

> > > > Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

> > > >

> > > > And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

> > > >

> > > > The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

> > >

> > > Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

> > > 1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

> > > Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

> > > 2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

> > > 3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

> > > 4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

> > > If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

> > >

> > > **So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

> > >

> > > I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

> > >

> > > Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

> >

> > Chaos chrono provide maximum 18 might. In actual raid it is normal to be 14.

> > SoI is 1 might for 40 seconds every 20 seconds (2 perma might)

> > Lesser SoI is the same (2 perma might)

> > F1 5 might for 16 seconds every 8 seconds (10 might)

> > Between 2 lesser signet of inspiration you cast 3 phantasms (sometimes 4 depends on a shield block and signet of ether)

> > (That is 6-8 might)

> > 22 maximum and dont forget that this count with 100% boon duration all tha time (which is not the case because of sigil of concentration) and also with casting spells exactly on cooldown which cannot be achieved in real raid

> >

> >

>

> Brain fart on my end. I was thinking CP would proc II twice but CP isn't meta anymore. That being said, 14-18 is still a majority of a might stack for a build that still provides perma quickness and alacrity among many other boons. More importantly, it's enough that you don't actually need a dedicated might stacker anymore and makes it too oppressive by preventing other builds.

>

> Arcane weaver self buffs and aoe buffs might. Scepter on any variant of guardian buffs might aoe. It's not like those extra might stacks cant be made up easily. with the meta DPS builds.

 

That is true. You can stack might on dps classes (and it is meta in fractals). And I agree that chronomancer is very powerful in pve.

Imagine this scenario. Elementalist is doing 50k dps and second dps option is doing 3k dps and his rotation are just aa chain (boss hp is the same as today). No matter how you nerf ele it will still be best dps or it will be usless since aa chain is much more reliable. Would you say that ele is too piwerful or that other options are just too bad? Both is possible but you cannot say if 50k is too much because only reference is boss hp and not any other dps option.

Chronomancer is in the same state as ele in this example. He is very powerful (and maybe too powerful) but nerfing him will not bring anything since there is nothing that can replace even his most basic job (quickness). First step should be making something that do his basic functions and then we can talk about nerfs.

Firebrand cannot be used in raids since mantras dont prioritise based on subsquads but on distance.

[Agent Noun.7350]

As a preface, my personal stance is that **no single build should be so far ahead of similar builds that it functionally becomes the only real choice**. While I recognize that you can _absolutely_ do any raid without any Chronomancers at all, you're unquestionably losing a noticeable amount of effectiveness by doing that. There's always going to be a meta team composition, that's impossible to avoid, but one single build shouldn't be so strong that the difference between taking it and not is as huge as it is for Chronomancer.

 

I also think that Mesmer should be the model for every other profession. Right now, it's the profession that comes the closest to the game's original design goals where every profession can competently fill any role. Mesmer has strong DPS options, both power and condition-based; it has strong support, both offensive and defensive; and it can tank. Other professions should be in a similar position. I'm less interested in tearing Mesmer down than I am in building other professions up, but at a certain point, something's gotta give.

 

Because of this, I have two goals:

 

1. Tone down Chronomancer's support so that it's still useful and desirable, but not dominant.

2. Bring more specs up to Chronomancer's level of support and/or versatility.

 

Honestly, one issue could just be how you get Concentration. Right now, there are no stat sets that give Concentration that aren't also really tanky and/or come with Healing Power as well. That means that if you're building your Chronomancer for support, you're by necessity also building them to tank and/or provide strong healing.

 

If there was a stat set that provided Concentration but with less of a focus on defense, you might see groups running DPS/support hybrid Chronomancers and another profession as a tank. And on top of that, that might also help solve a side issue, which is that Chronomancer is one of the few specs that can do multiple roles at a time without losing effectiveness at any of them--providing Quickness/Alacrity, providing a wide range of other boons, _and_ tanking. If there was a stat set that allowed other professions with strong boon support to bring that without losing too much of their DPS, you might see that done more often, because right now Chronomancer is just too efficient--you can fit a lot into that single slot.

 

One other suggestion would be making boons apply to 10 players by default instead of 5, just across the board for every profession. That's being done piecemeal, but I think it would help free up slots. For one thing, you wouldn't need two Chronomancers anymore.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> As a preface, my personal stance is that **no single build should be so far ahead of similar builds that it functionally becomes the only real choice**. While I recognize that you can _absolutely_ do any raid without any Chronomancers at all, you're unquestionably losing a noticeable amount of effectiveness by doing that. There's always going to be a meta team composition, that's impossible to avoid, but one single build shouldn't be so strong that the difference between taking it and not is as huge as it is for Chronomancer.

>

> I also think that Mesmer should be the model for every other profession. Right now, it's the profession that comes the closest to the game's original design goals where every profession can competently fill any role. Mesmer has strong DPS options, both power and condition-based; it has strong support, both offensive and defensive; and it can tank. Other professions should be in a similar position. I'm less interested in tearing Mesmer down than I am in building other professions up, but at a certain point, something's gotta give.

>

> Because of this, I have two goals:

>

> 1. Tone down Chronomancer's support so that it's still useful and desirable, but not dominant.

> 2. Bring more specs up to Chronomancer's level of support and/or versatility.

>

> Honestly, one issue could just be how you get Concentration. Right now, there are no stat sets that give Concentration that aren't also really tanky and/or come with Healing Power as well. That means that if you're building your Chronomancer for support, you're by necessity also building them to tank and/or provide strong healing.

>

> If there was a stat set that provided Concentration but with less of a focus on defense, you might see groups running DPS/support hybrid Chronomancers and another profession as a tank. And on top of that, that might also help solve a side issue, which is that Chronomancer is one of the few specs that can do multiple roles at a time without losing effectiveness at any of them--providing Quickness/Alacrity, providing a wide range of other boons, _and_ tanking. If there was a stat set that allowed other professions with strong boon support to bring that without losing too much of their DPS, you might see that done more often, because right now Chronomancer is just too efficient--you can fit a lot into that single slot.

>

> One other suggestion would be making boons apply to 10 players by default instead of 5, just across the board for every profession. That's being done piecemeal, but I think it would help free up slots. For one thing, you wouldn't need two Chronomancers anymore.

 

 

I agree with you but in my opinion your 2 goals should have reversed order. First create more support specs (because there are none oher then healers and chrono) and then you can nerf chrono to same levels as others

 

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> I agree with you but in my opinion your 2 goals should have reversed order. First create more support specs (because there are none oher then healers and chrono) and then you can nerf chrono to same levels as others

>

 

Oh, definitely. I didn't mean to imply they should be done in any particular order. It would suck to have the rug pulled out from under the meta without anything at all to stand on for sure.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > > >

> > > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > > >

> > > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> > >

> > > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> > >

> > > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> > >

> > > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

> >

> > SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

> >

> > Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

> >

> > And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

> >

> > The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

>

> Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

> 1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

> Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

> 2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

> 3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

> 4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

> If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

>

> **So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

>

> I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

>

> Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

 

um no, Illusionary Inspiration has an ICD.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > > > >

> > > > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> > > >

> > > > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> > > >

> > > > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> > > >

> > > > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

> > >

> > > SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

> > >

> > > Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

> > >

> > > And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

> > >

> > > The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

> >

> > Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

> > 1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

> > Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

> > 2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

> > 3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

> > 4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

> > If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

> >

> > **So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

> >

> > I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

> >

> > Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

>

> um no, Illusionary Inspiration has an ICD.

 

It doesnt have icd. Only one part have cd and that is the signet. 2 might oer phantasm is without icd

[Deadvillager.1956]

The whole raid meta revolves around chronos because of their quickness and alacrity overcapping. All the other things are basically nice to have but can be done by other classes too. IMHO it would be fine to just remove alacrity as a boon entirely and make it a mesmer/chrono only class buff like kallas fervor for renegades. Have might or quickness shared on alacrity activation for all I care but alacrity limits the raid meta way too hard. Just remove it from the boon list and be done with it.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @"Deadvillager.1956" said:

> The whole raid meta revolves around chronos because of their quickness and alacrity overcapping. All the other things are basically nice to have but can be done by other classes too. IMHO it would be fine to just remove alacrity as a boon entirely and make it a mesmer/chrono only class buff like kallas fervor for renegades. Have might or quickness shared on alacrity activation for all I care but alacrity limits the raid meta way too hard. Just remove it from the boon list and be done with it.

 

That's how Alacrity used to be, interestingly enough.

 

I wonder if it would work to make Alacrity something that can only ever be applied in very short bursts, but has a much stronger effect when it's applied. Like say it can only be active for 5-10 seconds every minute or two, but it outright doubles or even triples the rate at which skills recharge while it's active. Make it this short-lived buff that makes everyone go "_hell_ yeah, it's Alacrity time" or something you can carefully time with your raid group so that it helps people recharge their long-cooldown skills faster, that kind of thing.

 

Then build in a debuff that makes it so that you can't have it reapplied to you for a set period of time after it wears off. This is something I'm stealing from WoW with its Bloodlust/Time Warp buff, but I think it's a good idea, because it removes the incentive to just bring a bunch of people who can apply Alacrity so you can have it as often as possible. Let it be something situational but extremely powerful, basically.

 

That still wouldn't totally solve the Chronomancer problem, of course. It'd still be the God-Emperor of applying boons and able to do it while tanking very well. So maybe the next step would be to tone down Chronomancer's boon-sharing capabilities in one way or another, while bringing some other specs up to Chronomancer's (new, post-hypothetical-nerf) level, or maybe enabling some specs to be effective tanks while also maintaining effectiveness in other useful roles.