Harvest.4159 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Hi guys, I was wondering, does a Condition Mirage does really need Power? Or is more related to the fact that there is an already "ready" offensive set like Viper avaiable? I mean, if with Min/Maxing with other Sets you can reach Higher Crit/Condi Damage/Condi Duration and -Optional: also add survivability (Toughness/Vitality)- would not be better? I mean, with Viper Build you can reach 1700ish Condi and 2150Power and 35% Crit, but how much is worth that 1150 Power without good scaling ability/traits and Ferocity? Wouldn't be better have like 2300 Condi Damage (Reachable with some Build/Set) with the same amount of Crit/Condi Duration (Or more)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Are you talking PvE or PvP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > Are you talking PvE or PvP? I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 for PvE most of condi build deals power dmg ... So wheen you look at the benchmark something like 35k/s (random number) you'll kinda have 25 k as condi dmg and 10 k as power dmg .... so yeah, in pve power increase your overall dps OFC it depends the class and even the weapon used by that class. Exemple ... scepter on necromancer has almost no power coefficient. In the other way , warrier sword has a lot (compared to necro) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > Are you talking PvE or PvP? > > I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. > > Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? The mix max set you want just doesn't exist right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > Are you talking PvE or PvP? > > > > I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. > > > > Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? > > The mix max set you want just doesn't exist right now. What that suppose to mean? It does not need to exist, you take two or three different sets and you put them together to achieve the stats that you want... You lose Power and gain more Condi\Duration\Crit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > What that suppose to mean? It does not need to exist, you take two or three different sets and you put them together to achieve the stats that you want... > You lose Power and gain more Condi\Duration\Crit... Give it a try using a build editor. Let us know what you come up with. http://en.gw2skills.net Your goal: * 100% condition duration * theoretically max condi damage * 100% critical chance * theoretically max crit damage * with or without foods * testable max damage in combat, at least against the test golem You can also use DT's stat calculator. http://old.discretize.eu/ The problem is that there aren't the mix & match stats needed to do better than Viper's: Triple-stat with condi primary have secondaries of * power and precision or vitality (fails the "minimize power" requirement) * toughness and precision, vitality, or healing power (fails the "maximize condi duration" requirement, all but one fails the maximize crit chance requirement) PvE Quad-stat options have * Shared primary of power (the viper's you don't want) * Shared primary of toughness, with secondaries of vitality (defensive) and expertise (same as viper's), so on balance, worse than or the same as viper's * Shared primary of precision, with secondaries of concentration & healing power (the last two being useless for your goal) * Shared primary of Vitality, with secondaries of healing power & concentration (the last two being useless for your goal) In other words, the stats you want don't exist as triples, quadruples, or even mixing & matching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojimaru.8970 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > Are you talking PvE or PvP? > > > > > > I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. > > > > > > Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? > > > > The mix max set you want just doesn't exist right now. > > What that suppose to mean? It does not need to exist, you take two or three different sets and you put them together to achieve the stats that you want... > You lose Power and gain more Condi\Duration\Crit... You mentioned it in your opening post, as well as here, but I have yet to see any examples. Could you post your proposed build, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Yeah, it sounds like you kinda don't understand how gear stats work. The "set" you want would be single stat condition damage, but that's not a thing. All sets have minor stats that are different from the major stat, so you need to pick the set with the most efficient minor stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 What I mean is that you lose an amount of "useful" offensive Stat (Power) for gaining Stats that are more useful isn't it better? Even if you waste stats on Vitality or Toughness, if Condi is worth more than Power in a Condi Build, and without using Viper you can achieve more Condi and the same amount or more of crit\Condi duration with for example an Hybrid Rabid/Sinister/Trailblazer (Using Chaos as Trait and/or Nightmare rune for converting 17% of Toughness in Condi Damage)... It's not a matter of me not understanding Stats, is that I don't find much utility in Power a aside of full DPS Glass Cannon in high Level fractals/raid... When I was speaking more general like in WvW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > Are you talking PvE or PvP? > > > > > > I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. > > > > > > Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? > > > > The mix max set you want just doesn't exist right now. > > What that suppose to mean? It does not need to exist, you take two or three different sets and you put them together to achieve the stats that you want... > You lose Power and gain more Condi\Duration\Crit... He wants to min max a condition build. Only stats OP wants, if i understand correctly, are Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. It's not a stat combination. Which sets would you combine that will give you more dps than Viper right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > Are you talking PvE or PvP? > > > > > > > > I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. > > > > > > > > Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? > > > > > > The mix max set you want just doesn't exist right now. > > > > What that suppose to mean? It does not need to exist, you take two or three different sets and you put them together to achieve the stats that you want... > > You lose Power and gain more Condi\Duration\Crit... > > He wants to min max a condition build. Only stats OP wants, if i understand correctly, are Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. It's not a stat combination. Which sets would you combine that will give you more dps than Viper right now? Rabid, Carrion, Trailblazer with Chaos Trait + Nightmare Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > Are you talking PvE or PvP? > > > > > > > > > > I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. > > > > > > > > > > Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? > > > > > > > > The mix max set you want just doesn't exist right now. > > > > > > What that suppose to mean? It does not need to exist, you take two or three different sets and you put them together to achieve the stats that you want... > > > You lose Power and gain more Condi\Duration\Crit... > > > > He wants to min max a condition build. Only stats OP wants, if i understand correctly, are Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. It's not a stat combination. Which sets would you combine that will give you more dps than Viper right now? > > Rabid, Carrion, Trailblazer with Chaos Trait + Nightmare Rune That will lower your dps massively because it has minimal condition duration. You'll have a nice fat condition damage stat screen number and it won't mean very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > Are you talking PvE or PvP? > > > > > > > > > > I would like some thoughts about both, I'm interested in opinions about all the two > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > > > > > i can't think of any alternatives to viper. Maybe if there was a set that was just Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. For a condition build I could see that set being better than viper. Maybe next expansion that will be a stat option. But as it stands now, viper is the way to maximize the dps a condition build can do. > > > > > > > > > > Well, that was my point, why don't min\max with different set for achieving that? > > > > > > > > The mix max set you want just doesn't exist right now. > > > > > > What that suppose to mean? It does not need to exist, you take two or three different sets and you put them together to achieve the stats that you want... > > > You lose Power and gain more Condi\Duration\Crit... > > > > He wants to min max a condition build. Only stats OP wants, if i understand correctly, are Condition Damage, Expertise, and Precision. It's not a stat combination. Which sets would you combine that will give you more dps than Viper right now? > > Rabid, Carrion, Trailblazer with Chaos Trait + Nightmare Rune okay, good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Mixing stats is just bad if you wanna min-max. If it existed, Precision/Expertise/Condition Damage or Power/Expertise/Condition Damage could be cool. But as I said, they don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 Don't know where is the problem of that in WvW, you can reach easily 70% condi duration (Chaos passive + Mirage last Trait of 20% Duration when Target have Bleed) with 2300 condi damage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlette.9684 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > Don't know where is the problem of that in WvW, you can reach easily 70% condi duration (Chaos passive + Mirage last Trait of 20% Duration when Target have Bleed) with 2300 condi damage... Eh, what? Where do you get those numbers from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > Don't know where is the problem of that in WvW, you can reach easily 70% condi duration (Chaos passive + Mirage last Trait of 20% Duration when Target have Bleed) with 2300 condi damage... Chaos passive will get you maybe 8% on mirage. Mirage passive gets you 20%...but now your build sucks. Signet gets you another 20%...but only if you never use it, which would make the build suck even more. All that gets you to 48% at best, with a bad build. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to gimp themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable. For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see... http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%). Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable. > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see... > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%). > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario. > > Dune cloak is pretty drastically worse than elusive mind or illusionary horizon in most builds, but it's not awful I suppose. Taking the signet of midnight is not bad, but the duration increase is only active if the signet is ready. Using the signet turns off the duration boost, and you take the signet because it's a fairly low cooldown stealth, stunbreak, and aoe blind; a very powerful active defense skill. If you want to retain that duration, you can't use that...and that's bad. That means you can't count the signet in a realistic appraisal of your build, so go ahead and knock off 20% duration from your numbers. In the build you posted, you generate regen, fury, vigor, might, stability, and protection. The protection is only very low duration on a proc when you gain regen, so you absolutely can't count on that. The stability is for 1 second following a shatter, so that won't effectively be up either. That leaves you with regen, fury, vigor, and might: 8% duration from chaotic persistence. Then, you're wasting sigil slots on sigil of bursting and malice. Sigil of bursting is just bad because it's weird in how it interacts with stat boosts, so generally you don't want to take that. Sigil of malice works...but it's an extremely hard sell over monstrously powerful sigils like energy, doom, torment, etc. Those sigil choices come at a massive opportunity cost that you're not accounting for. Additionally, your crit chance is rather low, and this is going to impact the amount of value you're going to get out of sharper images. It'll also increase the time it takes to re-proc the vigor-on crit trait, which will have an effect. Lastly, the build has a grand total of 1 condition removal every 30 seconds. Good luck with that. As we all said, this kind of build is just a tooltip warrior thing. It looks kinda good on paper if you don't actually know how fights tend to work. Additionally, it's going to do massively less damage than a similarly built viper-based build because of the damage contribution from power, crits, and the ability to use more efficient stat allocation in various parts of the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable. > > > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see... > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w > > > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%). > > > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario. > > > > > > Dune cloak is pretty drastically worse than elusive mind or illusionary horizon in most builds, but it's not awful I suppose. Taking the signet of midnight is not bad, but the duration increase is only active if the signet is ready. Using the signet turns off the duration boost, and you take the signet because it's a fairly low cooldown stealth, stunbreak, and aoe blind; a very powerful active defense skill. If you want to retain that duration, you can't use that...and that's bad. That means you can't count the signet in a realistic appraisal of your build, so go ahead and knock off 20% duration from your numbers. > > In the build you posted, you generate regen, fury, vigor, might, stability, and protection. The protection is only very low duration on a proc when you gain regen, so you absolutely can't count on that. The stability is for 1 second following a shatter, so that won't effectively be up either. That leaves you with regen, fury, vigor, and might: 8% duration from chaotic persistence. > > Then, you're wasting sigil slots on sigil of bursting and malice. Sigil of bursting is just bad because it's weird in how it interacts with stat boosts, so generally you don't want to take that. Sigil of malice works...but it's an extremely hard sell over monstrously powerful sigils like energy, doom, torment, etc. Those sigil choices come at a massive opportunity cost that you're not accounting for. > > Additionally, your crit chance is rather low, and this is going to impact the amount of value you're going to get out of sharper images. It'll also increase the time it takes to re-proc the vigor-on crit trait, which will have an effect. > > Lastly, the build has a grand total of 1 condition removal every 30 seconds. Good luck with that. > > As we all said, this kind of build is just a tooltip warrior thing. It looks kinda good on paper if you don't actually know how fights tend to work. Additionally, it's going to do massively less damage than a similarly built viper-based build because of the damage contribution from power, crits, and the ability to use more efficient stat allocation in various parts of the build. I'm not a PvP Newbie, I'm new to WvW since I'm making a Build for it, but I knoq how things work during a fight... So I will like to say what I disagree on and clarify some things: 1) Mesmer Build do not run any Condi Cleanse, Elusive Mind + Jaunt are the onlythings that Cleanse Condis, but if you get caught in a Condi Bomb or even repeatly by Condis you are playing it wrong, and you are playing on your mistake, not how optimally you should play, even more a Class with so much Mobility/Evades/Immunities. So basing on that "Dune Cloak" is worse, is simply saying "Is better for who don't know how to avoid Condi/Stun", and indeed most of the Top-Rated Players stopped using Elusive Mind, and Illusionary Horizon is simply garbage in literally any pvp game mode... 2) Sigil of Midnight is used as a "Oh shit" Button, is not something that you use normally or repeatly during fights, since with Jaunt you can avoid any kind of Damage even if you are Stunned, acting as the same as a Stun Break, allowing with mobility to avoid Damage... Same for the Evade... So even there, the only Stun Break that you need as a Mesmer is the Teleport... Sigil of Midnight is only an emergency Button that will probably lead to a reset of the fight with cooldown refreshed, not something you should relain on at the first Stun... So 90% of the Time the duration will be still on, if it's not like that you are doing something wrong. 3) Weapon Sigils, I needed to put both Sigil the same on both Weapon because the site does weird things if you differentiaty them, but on the Sword and Pistol I also put Sigil of Energy and sometimes even the Moviment Empairing Clear one, using that indeed as a Mobility/Defensive Weapon Set... So on that you are right, but was most because I wasn't precise enough, so that is on me... For the Sigil of Bursting, that one is not present on SPvP, so I don't know if it have wierd interactions, but never heard anything strange, and even 6% more Condi Damage on the Base Stats are worth it, in terms of damage... But if you say that is shit for some reason that I don't know, I take that for true... 4) The point of "Crit too Low", statistically is enough for keep Vigor up all the time since how many attacks you put up every seconds as a Axe Mirage, and when someone reach 75% it become 40%, meaning that nearly half of your attacks Crit, and since Bleeding from Crit is more a low-sustain damage addition on a PvP Enviroment (Since people take so few hits from Illusions), it's not even worth it building for that, so the only real utility is the Vigor, thing that it provide enough up-time (And that is tested, WvW or not)... 5) The problems of New Builds is that people always think that the build they are using is the best, because they invested time on getting the Equip, and finding new/different/better Build, and admiting it would mean start farming again... Or is related on how they like to play the Class, if for example someone prefer playing power they will always try to advocate that Power is better and go on... And I'm not here saying "That is better, do that", I'm trying to analytically and without any bias, trying to Min/Max what should be better for a Class, since I already have all the Equip ready I only need to Select the Stats and/or change attributes on the Armor... I'm only reflecting hours of Testing on SPvP with the limited choices that you have and trying to find the most effective Build, that 90% of the Time is not even what people call "Meta", since most of the Time "Meta Builds" are only the most easier or the most famous Builds made famous by someone with infuence or by word of mouth... Again, removing from the argument PvE DPS Benchmark on a Golem, that is only math... For Example, I had much more success in SPvP on a Full Carrion (Without Chaos tree) and on a Full Rabid Build (With Chaos Tree) than with a Full Viper Build, even Damage wise... The hell, even how shitty it sound I had more success on a Celestial Build than with a Viper Build... And SPvP for a Mesmer is the same as WvW in regards on what you do (Aka Duelling or Small Group Fight), so even the argument "Are two different mode" in that case is irrilevant.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable. > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see... > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%). > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario. > > You should listen to Pyro, he's not some rando ***hat who has a passing interest in mesmer, he's been active on the forums and in game helping people since game launch and has theory crafted and then used a lot of very powerful builds including the immortal mesmer which still makes devs not want mesmers to have retaliation as a boon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvest.4159 Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable. > > > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see... > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w > > > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%). > > > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario. > > > > > > You should listen to Pyro, he's not some rando ***hat who has a passing interest in mesmer, he's been active on the forums and in game helping people since game launch and has theory crafted and then used a lot of very powerful builds including the immortal mesmer which still makes devs not want mesmers to have retaliation as a boon. I'm here for discussing, I'm not a new Mesmer Player, and I'm not someone that don't even know where to start when speaking about Min/Maxing and/or Build Making... And I have obsolutely never said that Pyro is an incompetent or that it does not knw what is it talking about, I think that the discussion must stay constructive so both part can improve and open the minds on different things... PvE Discussion are straight forward, you maximize the Damage Number, you got it right... PvP is different, since damage is only a part of what you need on the field... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Harvest.4159" said: > > > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable. > > > > > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see... > > > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w > > > > > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%). > > > > > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario. > > > > > > > > > > You should listen to Pyro, he's not some rando ***hat who has a passing interest in mesmer, he's been active on the forums and in game helping people since game launch and has theory crafted and then used a lot of very powerful builds including the immortal mesmer which still makes devs not want mesmers to have retaliation as a boon. > > I'm here for discussing, I'm not a new Mesmer Player, and I'm not someone that don't even know where to start when speaking about Min/Maxing and/or Build Making... > And I have obsolutely never said that Pyro is an incompetent or that it does not knw what is it talking about, I think that the discussion must stay constructive so both part can improve and open the minds on different things... > PvE Discussion are straight forward, you maximize the Damage Number, you got it right... PvP is different, since damage is only a part of what you need on the field... My mistake I thought you were because most veteran players know so few cleanses isn't a good idea, that bursting isn't good at all, that dune cloak is bad, that endurance regen on mirage is far more useful than condition duration and that condition application is better than duration and damage to a point because cleanses exist. I mean you say it yourself in the last sentence " since damage is only a part of what you need on the field..." where your build has terrible survivability and calling it a meme build would be more accurate, great at bursting people who aren't aware but poor in a protracted fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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