Condi Mirage, does it really need Power?

[EpicTurtle.8571]

I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

[Harvest.4159]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable.

> > > >

> > > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see...

> > > >

> > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w

> > > >

> > > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%).

> > > >

> > > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You should listen to Pyro, he's not some rando ***hat who has a passing interest in mesmer, he's been active on the forums and in game helping people since game launch and has theory crafted and then used a lot of very powerful builds including the immortal mesmer which still makes devs not want mesmers to have retaliation as a boon.

> >

> > I'm here for discussing, I'm not a new Mesmer Player, and I'm not someone that don't even know where to start when speaking about Min/Maxing and/or Build Making...

> > And I have obsolutely never said that Pyro is an incompetent or that it does not knw what is it talking about, I think that the discussion must stay constructive so both part can improve and open the minds on different things...

> > PvE Discussion are straight forward, you maximize the Damage Number, you got it right... PvP is different, since damage is only a part of what you need on the field...

>

> My mistake I thought you were because most veteran players know so few cleanses isn't a good idea, that bursting isn't good at all, that dune cloak is bad, that endurance regen on mirage is far more useful than condition duration and that condition application is better than duration and damage to a point because cleanses exist.

>

> I mean you say it yourself in the last sentence " since damage is only a part of what you need on the field..." where your build has terrible survivability and calling it a meme build would be more accurate, great at bursting people who aren't aware but poor in a protracted fight.

 

Veteran Players knows how to avoid Condi and Stun, and you if get out-condied as a Mirage you should change Class...

"Dune Cloak" is bad? That why most of the Top Player on SPvP run that I suppose, since Elusive Mind most of the time get you killed cause of Exhaustion, and removing Condi with that, is for people that don't even know how to avoid them... Good? Yes... Are both viable and stong choices? Yes for sure... Exhaustion is for sure something that will not enhance your survivability, and absolutely need to clean a condi when you get Out-Coindied as a Mesmer mean that you did something wrong in the begin...

And reading "Your build have terrible survivability" when people suggested Full Viper with 16k HP, 0 Toughness, seems a bit of a stretch, counting that if you are a minimum familiar with the Axe Mirage, know that you already have full Vigor Up-Time with 20% Critical Chance (That is anyway 40% since you have Fury up 90% of the time)... And everything else is the same as any other Mirage Build...

Seems most a "For me You are a no one, you don't know anything, so bash everything you say only for the sake of doing so", not really mature doing these gang up without a reason and real thought behind what you say only for defeding someone that you know...

 

Calling a Build that shine in protacted fight more than in short-end fight, "Poor in protracted fight", that is where your knowledge stop I suppose... But don't want to start a Flame with you, so say your edgy answer trying to bash everything I said and madee your point more valid, and we can stop that here, don't want to argue, you will have your last word and you will be happy for the internet standard.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable.

> > >

> > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see...

> > >

> > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w

> > >

> > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%).

> > >

> > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Dune cloak is pretty drastically worse than elusive mind or illusionary horizon in most builds, but it's not awful I suppose. Taking the signet of midnight is not bad, but the duration increase is only active if the signet is ready. Using the signet turns off the duration boost, and you take the signet because it's a fairly low cooldown stealth, stunbreak, and aoe blind; a very powerful active defense skill. If you want to retain that duration, you can't use that...and that's bad. That means you can't count the signet in a realistic appraisal of your build, so go ahead and knock off 20% duration from your numbers.

> >

> > In the build you posted, you generate regen, fury, vigor, might, stability, and protection. The protection is only very low duration on a proc when you gain regen, so you absolutely can't count on that. The stability is for 1 second following a shatter, so that won't effectively be up either. That leaves you with regen, fury, vigor, and might: 8% duration from chaotic persistence.

> >

> > Then, you're wasting sigil slots on sigil of bursting and malice. Sigil of bursting is just bad because it's weird in how it interacts with stat boosts, so generally you don't want to take that. Sigil of malice works...but it's an extremely hard sell over monstrously powerful sigils like energy, doom, torment, etc. Those sigil choices come at a massive opportunity cost that you're not accounting for.

> >

> > Additionally, your crit chance is rather low, and this is going to impact the amount of value you're going to get out of sharper images. It'll also increase the time it takes to re-proc the vigor-on crit trait, which will have an effect.

> >

> > Lastly, the build has a grand total of 1 condition removal every 30 seconds. Good luck with that.

> >

> > As we all said, this kind of build is just a tooltip warrior thing. It looks kinda good on paper if you don't actually know how fights tend to work. Additionally, it's going to do massively less damage than a similarly built viper-based build because of the damage contribution from power, crits, and the ability to use more efficient stat allocation in various parts of the build.

>

> I'm not a PvP Newbie, I'm new to WvW since I'm making a Build for it, but I knoq how things work during a fight...

> So I will like to say what I disagree on and clarify some things:

>

> 1) Mesmer Build do not run any Condi Cleanse, Elusive Mind + Jaunt are the onlythings that Cleanse Condis, but if you get caught in a Condi Bomb or even repeatly by Condis you are playing it wrong, and you are playing on your mistake, not how optimally you should play, even more a Class with so much Mobility/Evades/Immunities.

> So basing on that "Dune Cloak" is worse, is simply saying "Is better for who don't know how to avoid Condi/Stun", and indeed most of the Top-Rated Players stopped using Elusive Mind, and Illusionary Horizon is simply garbage in literally any game mode...

>

> 2) Sigil of Midnight is used as a "Oh kitten" Button, is not something that you use normally or repeatly during fights, since with Jaunt you can avoid any kind of Damage even if you are Stunned, acting as the same as a Stun Break, allowing with mobility to avoid Damage... Same for the Evade... So even there, the only Stun Break that you need as a Mesmer is the Teleport... Sigil of Midnight is only an emergency Button that will probably lead to a reset of the fight with cooldown refreshed, not something you should relain on at the first Stun... So 90% of the Time the duration will be still on, if it's not like that you are doing something wrong.

 

I'm not gonna pick at most of this, but these bits I need to discuss. Back in the days of pre-hot GW2, the concept of relying purely on good evasive play in place of condition removal was truly doable. In fact, it's still doable to a lesser extent in PvP if you really go hard on the role of +1ing and never engaging in even-odds fights. However, since HoT there has been so much power creep particularly in the areas of condition application that this concept no longer even has the faintest whisper of existence. Debilitating conditions are applied on ranged autoattacks, from trait procs, from persistent aoes, and from the same larger hit skills that used to have them as well. This means that it's simply impossible to avoid getting hit by condies.

 

A burst of conditions, or a condi bomb, is how you kill someone that takes condition removal. You bait out their cleanses and then bomb. That is entirely unnecessary for someone that takes **no** condition removal, however. Lets assume you're fighting a scourge. They're going to autoattack you with scepter. This means you'll have ever-increasing poison and bleed stacks that you cannot do anything about. They're also going to drop shades on you, or simply wait for you to close distance for melee-range activation. You might be able to dodge one or two, but you'll get hit by them, probably the pulsing one a few times. This will smack you with cripple, torment, probably some corrupted stuff as well. Now what're you going to do? There's no way you could have outplayed that condition application, and there's no way you can remove them now that they're there. The answer, of course, is that you die.

 

The issue with signet of midnight is similar, though perhaps not to quite the same extent. Jaunt is...on a 30 second cooldown. If you try and rely on that to get you out of every sticky situation, you're going to be having a very bad time very quickly since it only moves you roughly the distance of a single heartseeker...hardly a get-out-of-jail-free card. Mirage cloak certainly lets you play more fast-and-loose with defensive utility like signet of midnight, but you won't always be able to pull the disengage the way you need to with just mirage cloak, especially when the fight becomes outnumbered as *always* occurs in WvW.

 

You are drastically overestimating the native defensive capabilities of a build and class and are vastly underestimating just how quickly things go to shit when roaming in WvW. A roaming build for WvW isn't building for a nice 1v1 where you both /bow and then beat on each other. A roaming build for WvW is building for a situation where a zerker thief joins the fight 20 seconds in, you've got blink on cooldown cause you just had to pull a hasty retreat from that zerg that came around the corner, and you still want to be able to survive and put people in the ground. This is not a build that can do that.

 

Edit: While a full viper build is going to be more inherently squishy, if you intelligently build the utility and trait support for the build, you'll be able to more realistically survive actual scenarios that occur. You need condition removal, you need adequate stunbreaks, you need sufficient access to stealth, and you need enough offensive punch to control fights. If you lack the offensive punch, you need to double down on the defense. This build lacks that offensive punch because you have no way to properly lock someone down and only marginal access to powerful burst. A viper build has good frontloaded damage from power plus the sustained damage from conditions. Since this build lacks that offensive punch, you need to double down on the defense...and it doesn't do that.

[Harvest.4159]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

 

Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

>

> Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

 

Infinite horizon corresponds to that offensive punch that I mention at the end of my post. It's an extremely bursty trait that allows you to massively amp up the rapid pressure you apply in a fight.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

>

> Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

 

> @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

>

> Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

 

You do understand it causes your illusions to Ambush right? Meaning starkly more condition pressure compared to 3 bleed stacks and a modest duration increase.

 

E.g. Staff goes from 3 condition stacks to 12, Axe goes from 6 to 12, and scepter goes from 5 to 20 but that's a special case since clone duration is halved on that skill only and it's not a great weapon anyway.

[Harvest.4159]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > > I disagree on the premise that using Signets and Dune Cloak make "Your Build sucks", 50% of people use Elusive Mind and 50% use Dune Cloak... These two were never bad Traits and were always a chooice of PlayStyle... Since both have down side attached to it, and someone don't want to kitten themself with exhaustion that will make you too much vulnerable.

> > > >

> > > > For the Signets instead, I don't know where you took that it sucks have them, where 90% of the PvP Builds (Both WvW and SPvP) at least use one and having both Domination and Midnight is not rare to see...

> > > >

> > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAnf8anELDlphNoBWoBMMjlcjysCetQyP9j/7vMAStWD-jFSTAB4ofownAghnEgpV+ZuSQA2fYYVKqSdlAAJAjHxj4R8AGPxT8EPxT8o4Jein4JeinNdTjn4RKAI2pB-w

> > > >

> > > > Anyway here the Build, counting your "8% from Chaos Passive", that honestly I think is more since with Chaos you can get a lot more Boon going on, is 28% total with Dune Cloak... 28+65= 93% Condition Duration, 2300 Condition Damage, 20k HP, 2200 Toughness and 20% Critical Chance (And since Mesmer have Perma-Fury we can say it's 40%).

> > > >

> > > > Now, instead saying "Good luck", like I'm a poor idiot, I would like to ear, how this Build is worst than a full Viper in WvW, where the Power give like little to no Damage and you have zero survivability... I will repeat that I'm not making that Build for a PvE Golem Benchmark in the Best Case Scenario.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Dune cloak is pretty drastically worse than elusive mind or illusionary horizon in most builds, but it's not awful I suppose. Taking the signet of midnight is not bad, but the duration increase is only active if the signet is ready. Using the signet turns off the duration boost, and you take the signet because it's a fairly low cooldown stealth, stunbreak, and aoe blind; a very powerful active defense skill. If you want to retain that duration, you can't use that...and that's bad. That means you can't count the signet in a realistic appraisal of your build, so go ahead and knock off 20% duration from your numbers.

> > >

> > > In the build you posted, you generate regen, fury, vigor, might, stability, and protection. The protection is only very low duration on a proc when you gain regen, so you absolutely can't count on that. The stability is for 1 second following a shatter, so that won't effectively be up either. That leaves you with regen, fury, vigor, and might: 8% duration from chaotic persistence.

> > >

> > > Then, you're wasting sigil slots on sigil of bursting and malice. Sigil of bursting is just bad because it's weird in how it interacts with stat boosts, so generally you don't want to take that. Sigil of malice works...but it's an extremely hard sell over monstrously powerful sigils like energy, doom, torment, etc. Those sigil choices come at a massive opportunity cost that you're not accounting for.

> > >

> > > Additionally, your crit chance is rather low, and this is going to impact the amount of value you're going to get out of sharper images. It'll also increase the time it takes to re-proc the vigor-on crit trait, which will have an effect.

> > >

> > > Lastly, the build has a grand total of 1 condition removal every 30 seconds. Good luck with that.

> > >

> > > As we all said, this kind of build is just a tooltip warrior thing. It looks kinda good on paper if you don't actually know how fights tend to work. Additionally, it's going to do massively less damage than a similarly built viper-based build because of the damage contribution from power, crits, and the ability to use more efficient stat allocation in various parts of the build.

> >

> > I'm not a PvP Newbie, I'm new to WvW since I'm making a Build for it, but I knoq how things work during a fight...

> > So I will like to say what I disagree on and clarify some things:

> >

> > 1) Mesmer Build do not run any Condi Cleanse, Elusive Mind + Jaunt are the onlythings that Cleanse Condis, but if you get caught in a Condi Bomb or even repeatly by Condis you are playing it wrong, and you are playing on your mistake, not how optimally you should play, even more a Class with so much Mobility/Evades/Immunities.

> > So basing on that "Dune Cloak" is worse, is simply saying "Is better for who don't know how to avoid Condi/Stun", and indeed most of the Top-Rated Players stopped using Elusive Mind, and Illusionary Horizon is simply garbage in literally any game mode...

> >

> > 2) Sigil of Midnight is used as a "Oh kitten" Button, is not something that you use normally or repeatly during fights, since with Jaunt you can avoid any kind of Damage even if you are Stunned, acting as the same as a Stun Break, allowing with mobility to avoid Damage... Same for the Evade... So even there, the only Stun Break that you need as a Mesmer is the Teleport... Sigil of Midnight is only an emergency Button that will probably lead to a reset of the fight with cooldown refreshed, not something you should relain on at the first Stun... So 90% of the Time the duration will be still on, if it's not like that you are doing something wrong.

>

> I'm not gonna pick at most of this, but these bits I need to discuss. Back in the days of pre-hot GW2, the concept of relying purely on good evasive play in place of condition removal was truly doable. In fact, it's still doable to a lesser extent in PvP if you really go hard on the role of +1ing and never engaging in even-odds fights. However, since HoT there has been so much power creep particularly in the areas of condition application that this concept no longer even has the faintest whisper of existence. Debilitating conditions are applied on ranged autoattacks, from trait procs, from persistent aoes, and from the same larger hit skills that used to have them as well. This means that it's simply impossible to avoid getting hit by condies.

>

> A burst of conditions, or a condi bomb, is how you kill someone that takes condition removal. You bait out their cleanses and then bomb. That is entirely unnecessary for someone that takes **no** condition removal, however. Lets assume you're fighting a scourge. They're going to autoattack you with scepter. This means you'll have ever-increasing poison and bleed stacks that you cannot do anything about. They're also going to drop shades on you, or simply wait for you to close distance for melee-range activation. You might be able to dodge one or two, but you'll get hit by them, probably the pulsing one a few times. This will smack you with cripple, torment, probably some corrupted stuff as well. Now what're you going to do? There's no way you could have outplayed that condition application, and there's no way you can remove them now that they're there. The answer, of course, is that you die.

>

> The issue with signet of midnight is similar, though perhaps not to quite the same extent. Jaunt is...on a 30 second cooldown. If you try and rely on that to get you out of every sticky situation, you're going to be having a very bad time very quickly since it only moves you roughly the distance of a single heartseeker...hardly a get-out-of-jail-free card. Mirage cloak certainly lets you play more fast-and-loose with defensive utility like signet of midnight, but you won't always be able to pull the disengage the way you need to with just mirage cloak, especially when the fight becomes outnumbered as *always* occurs in WvW.

>

> You are drastically overestimating the native defensive capabilities of a build and class and are vastly underestimating just how quickly things go to kitten when roaming in WvW. A roaming build for WvW isn't building for a nice 1v1 where you both /bow and then beat on each other. A roaming build for WvW is building for a situation where a zerker thief joins the fight 20 seconds in, you've got blink on cooldown cause you just had to pull a hasty retreat from that zerg that came around the corner, and you still want to be able to survive and put people in the ground. This is not a build that can do that.

>

> Edit: While a full viper build is going to be more inherently squishy, if you intelligently build the utility and trait support for the build, you'll be able to more realistically survive actual scenarios that occur. You need condition removal, you need adequate stunbreaks, you need sufficient access to stealth, and you need enough offensive punch to control fights. If you lack the offensive punch, you need to double down on the defense. This build lacks that offensive punch because you have no way to properly lock someone down and only marginal access to powerful burst. A viper build has good frontloaded damage from power plus the sustained damage from conditions. Since this build lacks that offensive punch, you need to double down on the defense...and it doesn't do that.

 

The problem is that now we enter in a circle of contradictions...

 

With that kind of build, you shoud Over-Condi someone and kill him before he condi you enough, right? But than you could state: "But he will condi-cleanse", and now I can say, so I can take Elusive Mind without the drowback of losing the Condi Duration, since he will Condi Cleanse 20% is not a huge difference...

 

The thing is that, as a condi Mesmer, you should out-condi anyone while evading so much of their condi to get the edge and being able to burst them, with 0 or with 100% Condi Duration... And Using Elusive Mind as a Stun Break 90% of the time mean 3 second of inability to evade damage and dying...

 

As that hypothetical Roaming -never seen- Scourge, he will keep hitting the scepter/shades, but you will not be stopped at looking at him while he condi you...

 

The things is that, if you run Dune Cloak you can out-condi anyone, if someone full zerker +1 on you and you have 16k HP as a Full Viper without toughness you will be instantly dead in any case...

 

If you are already ready for a 1v2 fight, you can still win because nearly every condi you apply is aoe, cleave or homing-target...

 

So as said before, dune cloak vs elusive mind is more playstyle based, if not everyone would avoiding picking than in SPvP where the most skilled PvP happen (Regarding duelling, point holding / etc)

 

 

[Harvest.4159]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

> >

> > Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

>

> > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

> >

> > Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

>

> You do understand it causes your illusions to Ambush right? Meaning starkly more condition pressure compared to 3 bleed stacks and a modest duration increase.

>

> E.g. Staff goes from 3 condition stacks to 12, Axe goes from 6 to 12, and scepter goes from 5 to 20 but that's a special case since clone duration is halved on that skill only and it's not a great weapon anyway.

 

It's a bursty trait that no one use, because Mirage already have enough pressure in short-term, what he could lack is long time pressure (Dune Cloak) or Condi Cleanse (Elusive Mind), this is why is "gargabe" in PvP, not because is bad trait and is useless...

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

> > >

> > > Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

> >

> > > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > I stopped reading when he said Infinite Horizon is garbage in literally any game mode.

> > >

> > > Yeah, because giving Mirage Cloak on your Illusion is so good in any pvp Game Mode right? When the other two offer Stun Break/Condi Cleanse or Condi Application/20% Condi Duration... Come on.

> >

> > You do understand it causes your illusions to Ambush right? Meaning starkly more condition pressure compared to 3 bleed stacks and a modest duration increase.

> >

> > E.g. Staff goes from 3 condition stacks to 12, Axe goes from 6 to 12, and scepter goes from 5 to 20 but that's a special case since clone duration is halved on that skill only and it's not a great weapon anyway.

>

> It's a bursty trait that no one use, because Mirage already have enough pressure in short-term, what he could lack is long time pressure (Dune Cloak) or Condi Cleanse (Elusive Mind), this is why is "gargabe" in PvP, not because is bad trait and is useless...

 

'Long term' and 'short term' pressure is moot if a condition is cleansed, more rapid condition application means cleanses get used more often meaning it's easier to eventually break past your enemies defensive skills. You will not get this with Dune Cloak and you cannot infinitely chain evades to avoid all the conditions that will be thrown at you. And please don't claim 'no one' uses something or 'everyone' uses something. It makes your argument weak because you have no proof and going off of what most people will say/have said on the OF, Dune Cloak is largely considered inferior to Infinite Horizon. This does not make it a bandwagon argument nor does it mean that someone who has found a niche use for Dune Cloak is some visionary either

[Imperadordf.2687]

Dude, Dune cloak is the worst grandmaster trait for Mesmer by a large margin. You lost me after saying "infinite horizon is garbage" and "nobody uses EM anymore".

[Curunen.8729]

I think everyone has said all that needs to be said, so I'll just echo some of the points.

 

IH vs EM is a playstyle choice, either can be used to wreck things in wvw. Both are superior to Dune Cloak for the utility they provide. That's not to say you can't play with Dune Cloak - within reason you can play with a wide variety of options, but in this case it would be less effective.

 

Why not have power in a build. Means you won't be hardcountered by things like resistance spam, and opponents have to deal not only with sustained condi ticks, but also have some way of mitigating direct damage from things like F1 and many other skills.

 

Regarding condi removal - sure you can go "glassy" vs condis by having minimal removal, but then you're better off having a very low ttk and playing full burst power, because you'll lack the sustain for longer fights. Random things happen in wvw, numbers can drastically change at any time on both sides in any engagement, thieves will pop out of nowhere and attempt to gank you, and you __will__ be hit by condis, especially if you intend to roam and may not have allies to cleanse for you. Even taking Mantra of Resolve would provide a lot for surviving condi.

[Magolith.9412]

> @"Harvest.4159" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Harvest.4159" said:

> 1) Mesmer Build do not run any Condi Cleanse, Elusive Mind + Jaunt are the onlythings that Cleanse Condis, but if you get caught in a Condi Bomb or even repeatly by Condis you are playing it wrong, and you are playing on your mistake, not how optimally you should play, even more a Class with so much Mobility/Evades/Immunities.

 

FWIW, imo this is correct. I exclusively solo/duo roam on mesmer in WVW and have been for years. I've also been running IH since EM was nerfed. Even with only Jaunt for condi clears, I've been fine in just about all the fights I've been in. There's enough mobility, evades, etc that you should be able to avoid a big chunk of condi to begin with.