WvW Arrow Cart Nerfing

[Usagi.4835]

Forgot to mention, rangers love to sit inside towers/keeps. Nerfing siege won't stop them standing on the walls to freecast. Perhaps nerf soulbeast damage? I get 6-8k autos with 263% crit dmg and 3.5k power.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

>

> We are on AC's because there are 5 of us and 50 of you outside the tower. What the kitten else are we supposed to do. That time on siege is after we managed to get IN the tower because the 30 by the gate couldn't kill us before we got in and the other 20 were chasing who knows what or goofing off. We get to pull invul (oh wait, nvm the blob troll already hit that 1 minute before the blob showed), than hop on ac's hoping to kill the few clueless pugs in full glass builds before the "fight blob" ktrain flips the tower. Maybe, on a good day, our 30-40 man appears (cause it's prime time and people are on) and chases off the "fight blob" because they really just wanted the tower, not a fight. Literally, as soon as swords appear anywhere else on the map, the blob reappears to quickly flip the tower.

>

> It's the same every time at every tier. I just rode a link all the way back in to T1 and back down to T4 again, and every blob is doing the same thing. Watch the fight guilds that stream, sure they skirmish some here and there, but stop the second the enemy fields an equal number and kills them, that's when "they have to call it, it's been a long day", regardless of whether that is 30 minutes or 4 hours in to their stream. My favorite is when the fight guild streamer says "you know I never do this" and drops AC's all over lord's room. Yet, I watch their stream often, and they do it just like every one else does...every time they "need" to win the fight, because at that moment they weren't.

 

If you really are fighting 5v50 then you are in the wrong tier and your server has pptd itself into a matchup it cannot handle. You should lose everything if the disparity is that great; there should be nothing in the game powerful enough to even have a chance of equalizing those odds. Surely you must see why.

[mulzi.8273]

The one thing i'm looking forward to with this nerf is watching a specific server or two drop like a rock in tiers. Always hated the 'drop 50 ACs' and derp around strategy.

[Israel.7056]

A hypothetical to hopefully illustrate the problem: Imagine there were a class (Class iWin) with a kit so powerful that it could, with some regularity, win or at least tie in a 10v1 against even similarly skilled players on any other class in the game. In 5v50s this class would be called "the great equalizer" **at first** and it would sound like a good thing because it would give outnumbered people a better chance of winning **at first**. But then what would happen? After a few days of this every guild in the game would simply start running 50 of class iWin because it would be the obviously superior strategy. There would no reason to use anything else. We already see this sort of behavior in the game with things like firebrands and scourges and with weavers when meteors were bugged. Humans don't take long to recognize a superior tool when it presents itself.

 

In these discussions we inevitably see it descend into madness with rationalizations like "well I'm fighting 5v50 surely I must be given some tool that can even those odds out." No you should not. Because if 5 can even have a chance of defending against 50 with arrow carts then there's no reason for any other sized group to use anything other than arrow carts in any scenario where it's possible to deploy arrow carts. Fighting would be the inferior strategy every single time unless it were impossible to deploy arrow carts. This is textbook terrible game design unless the goal is to make the game mode one big never ending siege war where players only fight each other when they absolutely have no other alternative which it presumably isn't. I hope.

 

The only equalizers that should exist in any competitive game are similar numbers and/or superior organization. If you cannot manage either or both of those you should always always always always lose and allow matchmaking to do its job. If it turns out that the server you're currently on is in fact the least populated and/or least organized server in the entire game then you should have to transfer to make new friends so you don't have to fight 5v50 anymore. This is, after all, a social game. If you cannot be bothered to transfer to a more populated server and make new friends and work together with those new people to try to win WvW matches then you shouldn't ever win. Period.

 

 

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> A hypothetical to hopefully illustrate the problem: Imagine there were a class (Class iWin) with a kit so powerful that it could, with some regularity, win or at least tie in a 10v1 against even similarly skilled players on any other class in the game. In 5v50s this class would be called "the great equalizer" **at first** and it would sound like a good thing because it would give outnumbered people a better chance of winning **at first**. But then what would happen? After a few days of this every guild in the game would simply start running 50 of class iWin because it would be the obviously superior strategy. There would no reason to use anything else. We already see this sort of behavior in the game with things like firebrands and scourges and with weavers when meteors were bugged. Humans don't take long to recognize a superior tool when it presents itself.

>

> In these discussions we inevitably see it descend into madness with rationalizations like "well I'm fighting 5v50 surely I must be given some tool that can even those odds out." No you should not. Because if 5 can even have a chance of defending against 50 with arrow carts then there's no reason for any other sized group to use anything other than arrow carts in any scenario where it's possible to deploy arrow carts. Fighting would be the inferior strategy every single time unless it were impossible to deploy arrow carts. This is textbook terrible game design unless the goal is to make the game mode one big never ending siege war where players only fight each other when they absolutely have no other alternative which it presumably isn't. I hope.

>

> The only equalizers that should exist in any competitive game are similar numbers and/or superior organization. If you cannot manage either or both of those you should always always always always lose and allow matchmaking to do its job. If it turns out that the server you're currently on is in fact the least populated and/or least organized server in the entire game then you should have to transfer to make new friends so you don't have to fight 5v50 anymore. This is, after all, a social game. If you cannot be bothered to transfer to a more populated server and make new friends and work together with those new people to try to win WvW matches then you shouldn't ever win. Period.

>

>

 

Actually there was a lot of words there for such and easy statement "I cant play because of ac fire" ,you have blobs that want to "fight" haha against a small group who have no right being in a game they paid for doing it the way it was designed to be played , if you do not like the state of the game the answer is simple leave, until they delete stealth and rings of death then and only then worry about siege with 30 or so standing at the gate you die before you get within coooee of the structure and here you are pontificating your stance against an actual part of the game which was there before this mess was created with the totally unbalanced specialisations we all know the game is broken and has been for so long and if you think this rumoured Älliance" will fix it you are very mistaken so man up and just play it.

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

 

So your actual fights you speak of are 40 v5 so you can get some little bags and feel good because of ?? some inane reason. They have sorted the fight part for these so called fight guilds didn't they just redo EOTM go look for your fights and you wont have to be concerned about seige

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Evolute.6239" said:

> People who are saying they won’t be able to defend keeps against blob servers: good? That’s quite literally what the tier system is for?

>

> We have servers in T1 and T2 who have .5 KDA and still win or sustain the matchup despite literally feeding because they’re able to PPT keeps.

>

> If you and your server can’t command and get a group going.. maybe you should be in tier 4 or 5?

>

> In regards to bandwagon fight servers.. lmao. Whatever you say, bud. I’ve done my fair share of setting up a billion catas hoping for any response. If they can’t respond, we should get the keep, not be bored for two hours against arrow carts. If nobody responds, these guilds tend to tag down after ktraining. Your hate should be towards the groups who literally blitzkreig ktrain maps and port of any response comes. Not the guilds who only attack keeps to get players to fight.

>

> If you don’t like those “fight guilds” then get out of the bloody tiers that they are in and go to the tiers your server deserves to be in.

 

A very typical arrogant attitude from a so called fight guild what makes you think you are the be all and end all as far as this game goes , you get to the tier you want to havde yet to see a server get T1 from just actually fighting the statements you make are nonsensical the game as a whole is made up of kdr, ppk, ppt go EOTM and play your fights. If the game isnt enjoyable for you leave simple.

[Evolute.6239]

Nobody calls 5v50 a fight. At that point it’s irrelevant for both parties.

 

It’s 5 show up against 50, the 50 deserve to roll over everyone. Welcome to WvW.

 

I’m well aware there are different styles to WvW. I enjoy havocing too. I also don’t whine about being blobbed down as a smaller group trying to flip a tower when a larger group comes because it is what it is.

 

And the whole point is that people have left WvW. There’s a reason there’s tons of bandwagons and complaints about matchups. They’re literally redoing the entire WvW system!

[joneirikb.7506]

A counter argument to the 5vs50, and the 5 should go down a tier:

 

Coverage:

* NA: A:5 B:5 C:50

* OCX/SEA: A:5 B:50 C:5

* EU: A:50 B:5 C:5

 

Extreme example, but I've seen matchup's like these in the past, especially where servers divided 12/12h shifts between themselves because of coverage, with 3rd server unable to participate.

 

Also with 4 tiers, this doesn't apply equally to each server. In t4 you can't go lower, and in T1 you might end up getting out-tanked by a more organized server that just want to get out etc. So this only works reliably in t2+3 in NA currently.

 

To a certain extent, the alliance system will reduce this somewhat on a server/tier level, but not coverage. Coverage will always be the cancer that eats up wvw from the inside.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

>

> So your actual fights you speak of are 40 v5 so you can get some little bags and feel good because of ?? some inane reason. They have sorted the fight part for these so called fight guilds didn't they just redo EOTM go look for your fights and you wont have to be concerned about seige

 

Ah yes, a good point. Once they redo the arena size, the borderlands should be barren of fight guilds because all those so called fight guilds will just be in EoTM waiting to blob/fight against each other, right? Isn’t that the dream of the fight guilds? No more yucky ppt for them. No arrow carts in the arena. Everyone wins.

[etsmith.9025]

taking a t3 tower/keep with defenders SHOULD take tactics to take. You shouldnt be able to bum rush any keep with 40 people and cap it in 2 minutes Another anet well thought out plan that favors the attackers and zerg groups who stack servers.

[Evolute.6239]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

> >

> > So your actual fights you speak of are 40 v5 so you can get some little bags and feel good because of ?? some inane reason. They have sorted the fight part for these so called fight guilds didn't they just redo EOTM go look for your fights and you wont have to be concerned about seige

>

> Ah yes, a good point. Once they redo the arena size, the borderlands should be barren of fight guilds because all those so called fight guilds will just be in EoTM waiting to blob/fight against each other, right? Isn’t that the dream of the fight guilds? No more yucky ppt for them. No arrow carts in the arena. Everyone wins.

 

In other shocking news, fight guilds may want to take structures too, just not play arrow cart versus player for 2 hours.

 

It’s almost as if extremes on either direction are not entirely healthy for the game mode. Woah.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Evolute.6239" said:

> > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

> > >

> > > So your actual fights you speak of are 40 v5 so you can get some little bags and feel good because of ?? some inane reason. They have sorted the fight part for these so called fight guilds didn't they just redo EOTM go look for your fights and you wont have to be concerned about seige

> >

> > Ah yes, a good point. Once they redo the arena size, the borderlands should be barren of fight guilds because all those so called fight guilds will just be in EoTM waiting to blob/fight against each other, right? Isn’t that the dream of the fight guilds? No more yucky ppt for them. No arrow carts in the arena. Everyone wins.

>

> In other shocking news, fight guilds may want to take structures too, just not play arrow cart versus player for 2 hours.

>

> It’s almost as if extremes on either direction are not entirely healthy for the game mode. Woah.

 

PPT?! Blasphemy

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Too bad the Forums don’t show the current Server that each account is on to see where all the complaints are coming from, I think that would be interesting to see.

[Usagi.4835]

> @"Evolute.6239" said:

> In other shocking news, fight guilds may want to take structures too, just not play arrow cart versus player for 2 hours.

>

> It’s almost as if extremes on either direction are not entirely healthy for the game mode. Woah.

I mean, if you're serious about taking something, drop a shield gen? Lol.

[Evolute.6239]

> @"Usagi.4835" said:

> > @"Evolute.6239" said:

> > In other shocking news, fight guilds may want to take structures too, just not play arrow cart versus player for 2 hours.

> >

> > It’s almost as if extremes on either direction are not entirely healthy for the game mode. Woah.

> I mean, if you're serious about taking something, drop a shield gen? Lol.

 

The whole point is that it took hundreds upon hundreds of supply to even crack an outer through ac and siege fire against vastly lower numbers. Heaven forbid they had a Zerg inside on said siege, but I can understand defending somewhat then. Most of the time it’s a vastly outnumbered force still defending though.

 

Nerfed siege means a larger force will need to respond if a large group comes. Which is healthy and good. Nobody except the 3 people on ACs enjoy what was happening previously. Maybe not even them, as you have people like in this thread who feel it’s unfair they’re alone against 50 and need to rely on siege. (That’s a whole different discussion of matchmaking issues and PPT influence)

 

Though they also broke shield gens last patch and they don’t do anything right now anyway ?

 

[Israel.7056]

Like I said this always hinges around the 5v50 canard. If you're honestly that outnumbered you should lose all your stuff and drop tiers until the numbers are more even because you've clearly pptd your server into a tier it doesn't belong in. But in my experience most fights are not 5v50 and it's usually 40v40 with one side building 20 acs and turtling objectives for hours.

[Israel.7056]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

>

> So your actual fights you speak of are 40 v5 so you can get some little bags and feel good because of ?? some inane reason. They have sorted the fight part for these so called fight guilds didn't they just redo EOTM go look for your fights and you wont have to be concerned about seige

 

Actually I'm usually the one fighting outnumbered but I'm fine with losing everything that's the way it should be.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

> @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Well I'll tell you who definitely doesn't want to fight: people sitting on acs.

>

> So your actual fights you speak of are 40 v5 so you can get some little bags and feel good because of ?? some inane reason. They have sorted the fight part for these so called fight guilds didn't they just redo EOTM go look for your fights and you wont have to be concerned about seige

 

You are absolutely right, evidenced by this KEK video that shows all the 40v5 fights they get.

[shiri.4257]

Siege warfare is a form of fighting. Why does metabattle not have any siege builds? Legends like Xushin, DK, and Cookies have made more faux fight guilds reform or bandwagon. yet all we hear are the cries and wails of how superior their builds are. Yet they lose so much? Maguuma needs to write a page on how to properly defend SMC. Xushin a page for breaking t3s. DK and cookies for making gvg guilds wail in the corners of OS.

[SkyShroud.2865]

They need add mp into the game so people will make sure their skills count.

[Ceistebi.4023]

I swear people act like t3 towers just pop out of thin air. No, screw you for thinking you should just get my tower that I spent over an hour fortifiying. If I had to run yaks, keep the camps to run those yaks, and basically work either solo or in a small group to get that objective to t2 or t3 then I should be able to defend it using a variety of tactics. YOU need to learn some strategy. If you have 40 people then you can carry a minimum of 400 supply (most people can carry 15 though, so the number is higher). Throw some shield gens (yes, those are broken atm), back up a bit and cata from afar (that's what the cata update was for), build a bali, bring some ele's. I've layed and lost a lot of AC's in my defending days because the opposing side has brought something to counter it. If I'm so brazen as to try and disable you, throw up a bubble or have people ready to pull me off the wall. If you are in the business of taking objectives, make sure you have the setup to do so. If you want to ktrain everything with no resistance go do world bosses. If you want to just fight others, go to the EOTM arena or go spvp. If you want to mix fighting and taking objectives then come to wvw and realize that it's going to take some tactical attacking in order to take something. Down in t4 we often have to spend an hour+ draining the supply from a t3 keep before we even expect to get to inner. We destroy a lot of AC's, defenders, and basically hope that the enemy blob is either too busy, bad at fighting, or can be killed in some way. AC's were very powerful and definitely needed a nerf on how much damage they did to players, I am not arguing that they didn't.

[Israel.7056]

T3 stuff does pop out of thin air so to speak if the objectives are left alone long enough. Don't expect to be able to defend stuff if you don't know how to PvP this is supposed to be a PvP oriented game mode after all. If you're as tactically gifted as you think you are apply that to actual fighting instead of building siege and using it as a crutch.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> T3 stuff does pop out of thin air so to speak if the objectives are left alone long enough. Don't expect to be able to defend stuff if you don't know how to PvP this is supposed to be a PvP oriented game mode after all. If you're as tactically gifted as you think you are apply that to actual fighting instead of building siege and using it as a crutch.

 

If you're as tactically gifted as you think you are then apply that to smart siege usage rather than using it as a crutch. See how that works?

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Like I said this always hinges around the 5v50 canard. If you're honestly that outnumbered you should lose all your stuff and drop tiers until the numbers are more even because you've clearly pptd your server into a tier it doesn't belong in. But in my experience most fights are not 5v50 and it's usually 40v40 with one side building 20 acs and turtling objectives for hours.

 

I'm on TC and in tier 4, and yes, there are a ton of fights, even this week, that were 5 maybe even up to 10 vs 40-60. On that same token, watching the map at different hours, I know that we have fielded the 40+ vs JQ's towers where they basically were in the same situation with 5 defenders (or on DBBL where red doesn't go cause no one likes desert). DB can summon at least a full raid 24 hours a day to defend smc or flip our entire third, like they have done nearly every night all week. We don't have anywhere else to go from T4. We are nearly tied on score "because" of PPT, but personally despite us likely winning this week we should NOT be in T3, at all. Sure we have small guild groups trying superhard to get us the win, but the numbers and coverage are just not there. Skill is also an issue for a lot of the new folks, but skill is irrelevant when it's the time of day for the 50 to flip your third and you have 10 people active and 10 afk. Even if the afk pip farmers moved, were not beating the 50 with 20.

 

What wins at EVERY tier is numbers and coverage. And, with all the years of bandwagoning, some servers have better of both. Every "fight" server runs full comp'd squads, yet because of all the stacking, never has an equal force to face for most of their play time. So, you end up with wvw the way it is now. Large, ktraining blobs claiming they want fights, yet only "fight" when they can win 100% of the fights, and it's always vs smaller numbers. If one loses an equal fight, they get more or log. It's the reality of every tier in NA right now.