viquing.8254 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 > @"Yannir.4132" said: > It's not the same thing and you know it. Against retal you have way more options than you do against confusion. Against retal you just don't want to hit your opponent, against confusion you can do absolutely nothing else than cleanse. The damage difference is absolutely massive as well because confusion can be stacked. Yes it was a little pull. But the fact is that when you have gard + war + engi + thief (imba cheat ecto.) + ele (arcane sustain build.) with half of thoses who can easily have near or more 50% uptime : * It give advantage to one hit burst spec (core gard.). * There are more 'active' gameplay than a boon who pop when you use a skill for other things and who do average > 30% damage on a opponent. (And no it's not a good idea to don't hit core gard and let him free dps you.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > It's not the same thing and you know it. Against retal you have way more options than you do against confusion. Against retal you just don't want to hit your opponent, against confusion you can do absolutely nothing else than cleanse. The damage difference is absolutely massive as well because confusion can be stacked. > > Yes it was a little pull. > But the fact is that when you have gard + war + engi + thief (imba cheat ecto.) + ele (arcane sustain build.) with half of thoses who can easily have near or more 50% uptime : > * It give advantage to one hit burst spec (core gard.). > * There are more 'active' gameplay than a boon who pop when you use a skill for other things and who do average > 30% damage on a opponent. (And no it's not a good idea to don't hit core gard and let him free dps you.) How did we go from "retal is too strong" to getting hit for 30% of max hp by one skill? Assuming you're playing mesmer, a core guards retal hits for 256 damage. You have ~15k health, you would need to hit the guard 12 times in one skill in order for that to happen. Also, do note; every time you take damage from retal, is an attack the guard got hit by. This means, as long as your attacks hits for more than 256 damage, you're trading advantageously. Kind of the same thing as a guard using mighty blow with 6 confusion stacks. If it hits, you do more damage than you take. The only way retal should be an issue for mesmers overall is as an illusion / dueling power mirage. Domination offers enough boonrip to keep retal off. Retal also isn't an issue for duelist builds ( except staff druids I guess ) because the damage is so minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Retal is a much needed thing against clone spammage, and continuous bursty classes like holosmiths, thfs, rangers. If a single boon is able to finish u off because you cant stop your own attacking then its only your own fault....as far as mesmers go idk how about u not make continuous clones, play the class alittle different when placed into a sitchuation of high up time retal opponents. Retaliation isnt the problem is wasnt a problem a year ago it wasnt a problem 2 years ago....what changed is other classes ability to do continuous burst...so in short stop your self from bursting sometimes and be aware of the enemys sitchuation befor u go full burst like a nub? Just my 2 cents on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 >How did we go from "retal is too strong" to getting hit for 30% of max hp by one skill? Resulting damages at the end of the fight. Retal isn't too strong but it has a good carry potential. And with % dammage, 25 stack Might, it hit more like 350 to 400 than 256. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted August 3, 2018 Author Share Posted August 3, 2018 > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > Retal is a much needed thing against clone spammage, and continuous bursty classes like holosmiths, thfs, rangers. If a single boon is able to finish u off because you cant stop your own attacking then its only your own fault....as far as mesmers go idk how about u not make continuous clones, play the class alittle different when placed into a sitchuation of high up time retal opponents. > > Retaliation isnt the problem is wasnt a problem a year ago it wasnt a problem 2 years ago....what changed is other classes ability to do continuous burst...so in short stop your self from bursting sometimes and be aware of the enemys sitchuation befor u go full burst like a nub? > Just my 2 cents on this topic. The damage clones receive from retaliation isn't deducted from the casting mesmer's health pool. So clone spam really isn't an issue at all and not sure why you brought it up. The problem with retaliation is that is being maintained for incredibly long durations. That makes timing bursts irrelevant. From what I gathered in this thread, guardians don't care if an internal cd is slapped onto retaliation because they only use that boon to buff their stats via traits. The damage from it is no concern to them, only how it interacts with their traits. This is how I understand it, I've concluded that the 100% uptime on retaliation is fair as long as an internal cooldown is placed on it. If there won't be an internal cooldown on retaliation, then the 100% uptime isn't fair and is extremely passive gameplay. This is my stance on it, and it is the fairest conclusion I could draw from the many posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > Retal is a much needed thing against clone spammage, and continuous bursty classes like holosmiths, thfs, rangers. If a single boon is able to finish u off because you cant stop your own attacking then its only your own fault....as far as mesmers go idk how about u not make continuous clones, play the class alittle different when placed into a sitchuation of high up time retal opponents. > > > > Retaliation isnt the problem is wasnt a problem a year ago it wasnt a problem 2 years ago....what changed is other classes ability to do continuous burst...so in short stop your self from bursting sometimes and be aware of the enemys sitchuation befor u go full burst like a nub? > > Just my 2 cents on this topic. > > The damage clones receive from retaliation isn't deducted from the casting mesmer's health pool. So clone spam really isn't an issue at all and not sure why you brought it up. > > The problem with retaliation is that is being maintained for incredibly long durations. That makes timing bursts irrelevant. > > From what I gathered in this thread, guardians don't care if an internal cd is slapped onto retaliation because they only use that boon to buff their stats via traits. The damage from it is no concern to them, only how it interacts with their traits. This is how I understand it, I've concluded that the 100% uptime on retaliation is fair as long as an internal cooldown is placed on it. If there won't be an internal cooldown on retaliation, then the 100% uptime isn't fair and is extremely passive gameplay. This is my stance on it, and it is the fairest conclusion I could draw from the many posts. Honestly i dont care about retal one way or the other i play no class that uses it but if retal get an icd id like to see confusion get on as well. I thought i read mesmers where having problems with retal some where in this thread sry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said: > > Retal is a much needed thing against clone spammage, and continuous bursty classes like holosmiths, thfs, rangers. If a single boon is able to finish u off because you cant stop your own attacking then its only your own fault....as far as mesmers go idk how about u not make continuous clones, play the class alittle different when placed into a sitchuation of high up time retal opponents. > > > > Retaliation isnt the problem is wasnt a problem a year ago it wasnt a problem 2 years ago....what changed is other classes ability to do continuous burst...so in short stop your self from bursting sometimes and be aware of the enemys sitchuation befor u go full burst like a nub? > > Just my 2 cents on this topic. > > The damage clones receive from retaliation isn't deducted from the casting mesmer's health pool. So clone spam really isn't an issue at all and not sure why you brought it up. > > The problem with retaliation is that is being maintained for incredibly long durations. That makes timing bursts irrelevant. > > From what I gathered in this thread, guardians don't care if an internal cd is slapped onto retaliation because they only use that boon to buff their stats via traits. The damage from it is no concern to them, only how it interacts with their traits. This is how I understand it, I've concluded that the 100% uptime on retaliation is fair as long as an internal cooldown is placed on it. If there won't be an internal cooldown on retaliation, then the 100% uptime isn't fair and is extremely passive gameplay. This is my stance on it, and it is the fairest conclusion I could draw from the many posts. The most fair conclusion is that it gets the exact same treatment torment and confusion gets. So long they don't have an ICD, neither should retal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jihm.2315 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 theres nothing wrong with passive gameplay remember that you play a class and classes need an identity if retaliation is passive gameplay then so is regeneration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jihm.2315 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 lineage 2 had a tone of passives and it was totally awesome game stop giving passives a bad reputation its what makes class a class non passive gameplay is for first person shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 +1 and bring back on death clones because it was more pro-active than 75% of the 3 on 1 skills we have now :3 The good old 20/25/15/10/0. (sponsored by league of diversity gameplay.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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