Will we be getting a rework?

[Tongku.5326]

I have a feeling necro won't be getting any reworks until its time to prepare it for the next expansion. Then they will rework some traits and abilities to better fit whatever the new elite spec will be. This is what happened on the last 2 expansions.

 

[vicious.5683]

Please rework focus.

 

Thx.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"vicious.5683" said:

> Please rework focus.

>

> Thx.

 

Only 4 needs a rework. 5 is solid.

[Emapudapus.1307]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

 

> 2. Having an identity crisis on core

 

Ppl saying this shows either they have zero understanding of death shroud or they just dont like it and dont care.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"DTATL.9641" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"DTATL.9641" said:

> > > While core shroud definitely could use some changes shroud in general needs mechanical changes as the way it currently works is impossible to balance within this game. The chances that we'll see a rework feels very small and complete reworks are probably incredibly unlikely as I don't think they'll do mechanical changes to class mechanics outside of elite specs.

> >

> > Cough! cough!... You might not have seen the change on mesmer's fantasms...

>

> I have seen the phantasm changes and while they have reworked the phantasm skills. Mechanically, phantasm aren't that different to what they were before outside of them not interacting with shatters anymore. You still summon an entity that has a specific effect. To apply this to necro I can see them rework shroud skills and possibly do some changes to the shroud mechanic( because it really needs it) but they will probably never fundamentally change shroud. Core shroud or shroud mechanic reworks are probably very low on their priority list though which is why I said it the chances we'll see any are very small. Hopefully I'm wrong about that. A complete rework where they replace shroud with something else or fundamentally change how shroud work I don't think we'll ever see happen outside of elite specs as I think they have even said that before though I can't remember when or where so don't hold me up on that.

 

Mechanically shroud's 2nd health bar is very close to barrier so nothing prevent anet to replace the 2nd health bar by a few barrier spread in the core necromancer's tool kit. This would be an effective rework of the mechanism with changing a lot what the necromancer do at it's core. Even more, the necromancer would have an easier access to it's shroud skills thanks to that and nothing would prevent anet from giving us access to utility skills while in shroud. Technically this wouldn't be a change very different from their phantasm change. (In fact it would have probably les of an impact on other profession and overall balance than the mesmer's phantasm change.)

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Emapudapus.1307" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

>

> > 2. Having an identity crisis on core

>

> Ppl saying this shows either they have zero understanding of death shroud or they just dont like it and dont care.

 

Ok number 1 is decent skill. Same as fireblast from ele but with lower dmg and no explode. Power dmg

 

Number 2 is okayish, but as it's autos are ranged, it doesn't make sense to teleport near an opponent. Condi dmg

 

Number 3 instafear but only on one target, also supports the purpose of staying ranged.

 

Number 4 pretty close range power dmg thats Only good to use in teamfights.

 

Number 5 wants to force people away from you. This wants to be achieved by applying torment from enemies (well that speaks more for standing still) and afterwards immobiliz (but that immobilize lowers the dmg of the torment)

 

 

DS has almost everything. Range, cc, powerdmg, condidmg

But it clearly lacks a defined purpose or defined identity

 

[DTATL.9641]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"DTATL.9641" said:

> >

>

> Mechanically shroud's 2nd health bar is very close to barrier so nothing prevent anet to replace the 2nd health bar by a few barrier spread in the core necromancer's tool kit. This would be an effective rework of the mechanism with changing a lot what the necromancer do at it's core. Even more, the necromancer would have an easier access to it's shroud skills thanks to that and nothing would prevent anet from giving us access to utility skills while in shroud. Technically this wouldn't be a change very different from their phantasm change. (In fact it would have probably les of an impact on other profession and overall balance than the mesmer's phantasm change.)

 

I like that idea and I've been thinking about similar changes myself. I just don't find it likely to happen. It's true that shroud is mechanically similar to barrier and taking shroud away and spreading barrier around the skills/traits would probably be better for necro in the long run (aside from the ugly yellow effect that would ruin fashionwars) it would still require a lot of changes to necro as a whole. Even just replacing deathshroud with barrier would most likely be considered a too large of a change due to it being coded differently (I think shroud works as a transform?). Even seemingly simple changes can get complicated very easily when changing something this fundamental to the class. There are just too many questions around mechanics and balance that needs to be answered and it really doesn't seem like Anet gives the balance/skills teams enough time/people to work with such large changes. There have been more reworks lately but nothing as big as this could end up to be.

 

I find it far more likely that they would go for changes that wouldn't change the mechanic massively technically and/or design wise. Like solving the lack active defenses issue by making it so that you can't lose more lifeforce than 20-25% per second from block-able attacks. That would essentially give us a 3,91-4,88 seconds of blocks every 10 seconds assuming that you can max out your lifeforce during shrouds cooldown. While I would rather see a more comprehensive rework I don't expect one. I just find it more likely that they will continue to band-aid what we got. It would be really nice to get a rework though. I've had some ideas for possible changes but none have been complete enough to show.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"DTATL.9641" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"DTATL.9641" said:

> > >

> >

> > Mechanically shroud's 2nd health bar is very close to barrier so nothing prevent anet to replace the 2nd health bar by a few barrier spread in the core necromancer's tool kit. This would be an effective rework of the mechanism with changing a lot what the necromancer do at it's core. Even more, the necromancer would have an easier access to it's shroud skills thanks to that and nothing would prevent anet from giving us access to utility skills while in shroud. Technically this wouldn't be a change very different from their phantasm change. (In fact it would have probably les of an impact on other profession and overall balance than the mesmer's phantasm change.)

>

> I like that idea and I've been thinking about similar changes myself. I just don't find it likely to happen. It's true that shroud is mechanically similar to barrier and taking shroud away and spreading barrier around the skills/traits would probably be better for necro in the long run (aside from the ugly yellow effect that would ruin fashionwars) it would still require a lot of changes to necro as a whole. Even just replacing deathshroud with barrier would most likely be considered a too large of a change due to it being coded differently (I think shroud works as a transform?). Even seemingly simple changes can get complicated very easily when changing something this fundamental to the class. There are just too many questions around mechanics and balance that needs to be answered and it really doesn't seem like Anet gives the balance/skills teams enough time/people to work with such large changes. There have been more reworks lately but nothing as big as this could end up to be.

>

 

I think the thing that is the most likely to prevent such a change is more that ANet would have a hard time justifying the numerical value of the life force bar for core and reaper. Druid have the avatar which work just like the shroud in many way and scourge prove that the profession can be separated from the shroud as a 2nd life bar. I don't see anything really impossible there.

 

> I find it far more likely that they would go for changes that wouldn't change the mechanic massively technically and/or design wise. Like solving the lack active defenses issue by making it so that you can't lose more lifeforce than 20-25% per second from block-able attacks. That would essentially give us a 3,91-4,88 seconds of blocks every 10 seconds assuming that you can max out your lifeforce during shrouds cooldown. While I would rather see a more comprehensive rework I don't expect one. I just find it more likely that they will continue to band-aid what we got. It would be really nice to get a rework though. I've had some ideas for possible changes but none have been complete enough to show.

 

That's what you suggest that I find the most unlikely. The shroud used to stop the damages from overflowing from the shroud to the health bar, just like a block and ANet put an end to that. You are suggesting 4 potential aegis into a single shroud here, that's quite daring.

[DTATL.9641]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I think the thing that is the most likely to prevent such a change is more that ANet would have a hard time justifying the numerical value of the life force bar for core and reaper. Druid have the avatar which work just like the shroud in many way and scourge prove that the profession can be separated from the shroud as a 2nd life bar. I don't see anything really impossible there.

 

I agree with you that its not impossible but I feel like you underestimate the amount of work needed for this to happen. Sure neither of us really know how they work at Anet and this is pure speculation but things are usually a lot more complicated than it seems in development. It's not that large changes are impossible, it's that they are unlikely due to resource limitations they have or set for themselves. It doesn't help that this would most likely be a low priority as the problems with shroud ain't exactly new even though they have been made more obvious through the years of balance shifts and nothing has really been done about it. I would definitely like to see the removal of shroud for something else but I can't see Anet do that for anything else than new especs. Mostly because I think they don't want to alienate players that do like the way shroud works which probably is the majority of the necro players.(even if not all of them are happy with the performance of it). I might be pessimistic but by playing since launch I just can't be hopeful about this anymore.

 

> That's what you suggest that I find the most unlikely. The shroud used to stop the damages from overflowing from the shroud to the health bar, just like a block and ANet put an end to that. You are suggesting 4 potential aegis into a single shroud here, that's quite daring.

 

I know that would probably be a bad change. It was a terrible idea I had when trying to brainstorm how we could give necro scaleable defenses. I just used it as an example of the type of changes I could see Anet doing to shroud. Implementing that would probably break a lot. The difference to that suggestion and how it was before was that unblockable attacks would go through it meaning there would be ways around it. In the end it was an awful idea I had which I've scrapped.

[Asum.4960]

Reworking Necro to something comprehensive and functional in the game that Anet actually build would take tremendous amount of work, but still, I think Necro deserves it after all this time.

If they can spend time to develop so many new skills for a specialisation like Weaver and rework Mesmer (making it bonkers OP in the process for months), they can also spend the time to rework Necro.

With the new revenue streams added with PoF, I think it's not asking too much to stock up the balance- profession/specialisation design team.

 

Things like turning Reaper Shroud into Holoforge could work, with building time in the mode with Lifeforce instead of overheating. But that would require a massive ability and Trait overhaul, but Necro finally needs more DPS, group utility and scaling defenses anyway.

 

Scourge could be upper viable as support tomorrow if they added some Fury and some strong direct heals into the kit, maybe some Stability too. Better yet, rework Staff and put some heals and boons on there, or turn focus into a support weapon.

Give it a Trait that increases group damage, like more damage for allies affected by your barriers or standing in your Shade, and it could compete with Druid.

 

Then I'm still hoping for a minion mancer elite specialisation, coming with a complete rework of Death Magic.

 

But let's be honest, it's been 6 years. And while Necro still is and probably always will be my favourite profession, since I first picked it up in GW1, I have long moved on from actually playing it in GW2 and I don't see anything happening any time soon bringing me back to play what I actually enjoy.

 

There are so many passionate Necromancer players out there, who over the years have tried to share so many fantastic ideas and concepts with ArenaNet, but I think it's quite clear at this point that there is simply no one on the responsible dev team that is at all passionate about Necromancer, or understands where the class is and what it needs.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> Reworking Necro to something comprehensive and functional in the game that Anet actually build would take tremendous amount of work, but still, I think Necro deserves it after all this time.

> If they can spend time to develop so many new skills for a specialisation like Weaver and rework Mesmer (making it bonkers OP in the process for months), they can also spend the time to rework Necro.

> With the new revenue streams added with PoF, I think it's not asking too much to stock up the balance- profession/specialisation design team.

>

> Things like turning Reaper Shroud into Holoforge could work, with building time in the mode with Lifeforce instead of overheating. But that would require a massive ability and Trait overhaul, but Necro finally needs more DPS, group utility and scaling defenses anyway.

>

> Scourge could be upper viable as support tomorrow if they added some Fury and some strong direct heals into the kit, maybe some Stability too. Better yet, rework Staff and put some heals and boons on there, or turn focus into a support weapon.

>

> Then I'm still hoping for a minion mancer elite specialisation, coming with a complete rework of Death Magic.

>

> But let's be honest, it's been 6 years. And while Necro still is and probably always will be my favourite profession, since I first picked it up in GW1, I have long moved on from actually playing it in GW2 and I don't see anything happening any time soon bringing me back to play what I actually enjoy.

 

Here's the thing about reworking Necromancer. It's not an issue of time or resources. It's an issue of customer support. Some customers like Necromancer as is. It is a very dangerous thing to change something your customers already like into something new. The forums are misleading in that most of the folks who post in the Necromancer forums are people unhappy with the profession as is. But do not mistake that as universal support for the idea that Necromancer needs to be reworked because it's not. The environment here is not conducive for people who support Necromancer as is to speak up about it because they would be insulted and told they are wrong, just don't understand, or that they aren't real necro players, among other things. And ANet knows this. They know that all these threads on the forums represent a slice of their customer's desires and not the entire pie. There is also the problem that there is no singular idea on what is wrong and what would fix it. This raises another issue for ANet in terms of rebuilding Necromancer. Thus a rework at this point actually puts them in a position to lose out no matter what they do.

 

The best they can hope for now is using Elite specs to get Necromancer to where some people think it needs to get to while still preserving the profession as is. They have displayed on multiple occasions that they are trying to get Necromancer to a point where some fans feel it works but I gotta be honest, I'm not sure that is possible.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > Reworking Necro to something comprehensive and functional in the game that Anet actually build would take tremendous amount of work, but still, I think Necro deserves it after all this time.

> > If they can spend time to develop so many new skills for a specialisation like Weaver and rework Mesmer (making it bonkers OP in the process for months), they can also spend the time to rework Necro.

> > With the new revenue streams added with PoF, I think it's not asking too much to stock up the balance- profession/specialisation design team.

> >

> > Things like turning Reaper Shroud into Holoforge could work, with building time in the mode with Lifeforce instead of overheating. But that would require a massive ability and Trait overhaul, but Necro finally needs more DPS, group utility and scaling defenses anyway.

> >

> > Scourge could be upper viable as support tomorrow if they added some Fury and some strong direct heals into the kit, maybe some Stability too. Better yet, rework Staff and put some heals and boons on there, or turn focus into a support weapon.

> >

> > Then I'm still hoping for a minion mancer elite specialisation, coming with a complete rework of Death Magic.

> >

> > But let's be honest, it's been 6 years. And while Necro still is and probably always will be my favourite profession, since I first picked it up in GW1, I have long moved on from actually playing it in GW2 and I don't see anything happening any time soon bringing me back to play what I actually enjoy.

>

> Here's the thing about reworking Necromancer. It's not an issue of time or resources. It's an issue of customer support. Some customers like Necromancer as is. It is a very dangerous thing to change something your customers already like into something new. The forums are misleading in that most of the folks who post in the Necromancer forums are people unhappy with the profession as is. But do not mistake that as universal support for the idea that Necromancer needs to be reworked because it's not. The environment here is not conducive for people who support Necromancer as is to speak up about it because they would be insulted and told they are wrong, just don't understand, or that they aren't real necro players, among other things. And ANet knows this. They know that all these threads on the forums represent a slice of their customer's desires and not the entire pie. There is also the problem that there is no singular idea on what is wrong and what would fix it. This raises another issue for ANet in terms of rebuilding Necromancer. Thus a rework at this point actually puts them in a position to lose out no matter what they do.

>

> The best they can hope for now is using Elite specs to get Necromancer to where some people think it needs to get to while still preserving the profession as is. They have displayed on multiple occasions that they are trying to get Necromancer to a point where some fans feel it works but I gotta be honest, I'm not sure that is possible.

 

The problem of Necromancer is an utterly weak and dysfunctional core though. Trying to patch that over with an overpowered Elite Specialisation doesn't work, as Scourge aptly showed.

Then they have to spend months on nerfing the Elite Spec, and there we go, Necromancer is behind all other professions again, relying on it's lacklustre core.

 

The people that are fine with Necromancer can only be people roaming around in the open world, and I doubt they would start riots about their profession suddenly being better designed and performing better, even without knowing for what reason. As long as they keep the theme intact, which isn't hard to do, I don't see the big issue.

I don't think the few people upset about some mechanical changes outweigh the entire class being almost barred from any kind of endgame content, neither do I think it makes for a good new player experience when people who happen to have picked Necro and invested all that time into it, try to get into Fractals or Raiding.

 

Saying Necromancer is fine IS wrong, when it's not an accepted Support, not an accepted DPS, not an accepted Healer, or anything else.

A profession that doesn't have a single consistent meta build for years can't be called fine.

 

If Necro was mediocre, you could have a point. But since Necromancer doesn't have a single build in PvE that isn't behind literally every single other profession with multiple Elite Specs or even core builds performing better.. idk.

 

There is not one singular Idea on what is wrong about Necro, because so many things are wrong with it. You can't fix one of the issues and Necro will be fine.

There is a reason people have been asking about a rework for 5+ years, and not one little fix.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > Reworking Necro to something comprehensive and functional in the game that Anet actually build would take tremendous amount of work, but still, I think Necro deserves it after all this time.

> > > If they can spend time to develop so many new skills for a specialisation like Weaver and rework Mesmer (making it bonkers OP in the process for months), they can also spend the time to rework Necro.

> > > With the new revenue streams added with PoF, I think it's not asking too much to stock up the balance- profession/specialisation design team.

> > >

> > > Things like turning Reaper Shroud into Holoforge could work, with building time in the mode with Lifeforce instead of overheating. But that would require a massive ability and Trait overhaul, but Necro finally needs more DPS, group utility and scaling defenses anyway.

> > >

> > > Scourge could be upper viable as support tomorrow if they added some Fury and some strong direct heals into the kit, maybe some Stability too. Better yet, rework Staff and put some heals and boons on there, or turn focus into a support weapon.

> > >

> > > Then I'm still hoping for a minion mancer elite specialisation, coming with a complete rework of Death Magic.

> > >

> > > But let's be honest, it's been 6 years. And while Necro still is and probably always will be my favourite profession, since I first picked it up in GW1, I have long moved on from actually playing it in GW2 and I don't see anything happening any time soon bringing me back to play what I actually enjoy.

> >

> > Here's the thing about reworking Necromancer. It's not an issue of time or resources. It's an issue of customer support. Some customers like Necromancer as is. It is a very dangerous thing to change something your customers already like into something new. The forums are misleading in that most of the folks who post in the Necromancer forums are people unhappy with the profession as is. But do not mistake that as universal support for the idea that Necromancer needs to be reworked because it's not. The environment here is not conducive for people who support Necromancer as is to speak up about it because they would be insulted and told they are wrong, just don't understand, or that they aren't real necro players, among other things. And ANet knows this. They know that all these threads on the forums represent a slice of their customer's desires and not the entire pie. There is also the problem that there is no singular idea on what is wrong and what would fix it. This raises another issue for ANet in terms of rebuilding Necromancer. Thus a rework at this point actually puts them in a position to lose out no matter what they do.

> >

> > The best they can hope for now is using Elite specs to get Necromancer to where some people think it needs to get to while still preserving the profession as is. They have displayed on multiple occasions that they are trying to get Necromancer to a point where some fans feel it works but I gotta be honest, I'm not sure that is possible.

>

> The problem of Necromancer is an utterly weak and dysfunctional core though. Trying to patch that over with an overpowered Elite Specialisation doesn't work, as Scourge aptly showed.

> Then they have to spend months on nerfing the Elite Spec, and there we go, Necromancer is behind all other professions again, relying on it's lacklustre core.

>

> The people that are fine with Necromancer can only be people roaming around in the open world, and I doubt they would start riots about their profession suddenly being better designed and performing better, even without knowing for what reason. As long as they keep the theme intact, which isn't hard to do, I don't see the big issue.

> I don't think the few people upset about some mechanical changes outweigh the entire class being almost barred from any kind of endgame content, neither do I think it makes for a good new player experience when people who happen to have picked Necro and invested all that time into it, try to get into Fractals or Raiding.

>

> Saying Necromancer is fine IS wrong, when it's not an accepted Support, not an accepted DPS, not an accepted Healer, or anything else.

> A profession that doesn't have a single consistent meta build for years can't be called fine.

>

> If Necro was mediocre, you could have a point. But since Necromancer doesn't have a single build in PvE that isn't behind literally every single other profession with multiple Elite Specs or even core builds performing better.. idk.

>

> There is not one singular Idea on what is wrong about Necro, because so many things are wrong with it. You can't fix one of the issues and Necro will be fine.

> There is a reason people have been asking about a rework for 5+ years, and not one little fix.

 

You think it's an utterly weak and dysfunctional core. That is not a truth though. It is an opinion and there are opinions that feel otherwise and are just as valid as yours. That's the core problem here. People actually like Necromancer as is and their like of the profession is just as valid as your desire to change and improve it. You are only guessing about what the people who are fine with Necromancer are doing with it. Better designed and better performance are subjective terms and what is better designed and better performing for you is not that for others. Even with people who agree that Necromancer does need to change you do not see an agreement on what better designed and better performing should or would look like since there are differing theories and ideas on what causes the problem and what would fix it. Which brings me back to the people who like the profession as is, for those folks the profession is already designed well (or well enough) and works well (or well enough).

 

The idea that saying Necromancer is fine is wrong is precisely why you don't see very many people state that stance. Your statement gives them no incentive to enter a discussion about what they see as working because you have already told them they don't know what they are talking about. Your criteria for why it isn't fine is not a universal truth from which the profession has to or must be judged by. Different people care about different things. Some people do not care about healing, support, DPS or even being accepted. Some people don't have to PUG and thus they play Raids/Fractals/Dungeons just fine as is. Necromancer can do End Game content if given the chance. The problem is that the player community has created an artificial standard that no one has to abide by. For the folks who eschew it and find ways to play in end game content, they find that they can do it. Maybe not as efficiently as other professions can but they can do it.

 

Also, people ask for reworks all the time. And people who identify with a profession think they are weak all the time. Go over to the Elementalist forums and you will see they think they are unplayable too. You would likely disagree with that assessment but I mention it to highlight how something being wrong with a profession is a matter of perspective and not always objective truth.

 

Your post pretty much proved what I said in mine, people who like the profession will be told they are wrong about their like. You create an environment that prevents you from getting a fuller picture on the profession and what is left is a self reenforcing environment. ANet knows they have people who like the profession as is. Those people have a valid POV on the matter. If people like you were open to their input we might be able to get a better read on how Necromancer could be improved in a way that could likely lead to the profession getting the fixes it needs. But as it stands there is no real incentive for people who like the profession to contribute their insights since they are going to be told they are wrong or accused of being nothing more than roaming the open world.

 

The idea that Necromancer is broken is an opinion. Based on how many Necromancer characters there and how many hours people spend playing the profession it is very difficult to say that it is the only valid side in this discussion.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

>If people like you were open to their input we might be able to get a better read on how Necromancer could be improved in a way that could likely lead to the profession getting the fixes it needs. But as it stands there is no real incentive for people who like the profession to contribute their insights since they are going to be told they are wrong or accused of being nothing more than roaming the open world.

 

First of all, I don't know what leads you to believe I don't like the profession, when I'm spending a great amount of time discussing and thinking about it, as well has having played it for thousands of hours.

 

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> You think it's an utterly weak and dysfunctional core. That is not a truth though. It is an opinion and there are opinions that feel otherwise and are just as valid as yours. That's the core problem here. People actually like Necromancer as is and their like of the profession is just as valid as your desire to change and improve it.

 

You can combine two to three of most Necromancer Traits and get a single let's say Warrior Trait, a profession that has Minor Traits outperforming Necromancer Grandmasters.

The entire Death Magic line is so weak, it's suboptimal to your and your minions surviveability and damage to take over any other trait line even when running a full Minion gimmick open world build.

 

Specs like Weaver or Deadeye have more damage modifiers in a single line than all Necromancer traits combined.

 

There is nothing subjective about cold hard numbers. People who never played any content that actually puts their profession to the test saying "I feel like Necromancer is fine", and never having played any other profession extensively to see the difference, don't contribute valuable feedback on how to improve the profession on that level.

 

Benchmarks clearly prove for example that DPS Reaper barely competes with a Bannerslave, which is essentially a support spec giving out massive stat bonuses to the entire party/squad, while Reaper adds nothing to the group. How is that fine? And how is calling that out subjective?

And mind you, that is after Anet tried to buff Reaper for 2 years, increasing half of the specs skills damage by 50%+, and it is still the absolute bottom of DPS specs you could play. Objectively.

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> Your post pretty much proved what I said in mine, people who like the profession will be told they are wrong about their like. You create an environment that prevents you from getting a fuller picture on the profession and what is left is a self reenforcing environment. ANet knows they have people who like the profession as is. Those people have a valid POV on the matter.

 

Communities crunching numbers and testing builds for collectively hundreds if not thousands of hours coming to the conclusion that Necromancer is mathematically, objectively, inferior to every other class and someone strolling through the open world saying they feel like Necro is fine, are not equal opinions about balance.

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> The idea that saying Necromancer is fine is wrong is precisely why you don't see very many people state that stance. Your statement gives them no incentive to enter a discussion about what they see as working because you have already told them they don't know what they are talking about. Your criteria for why it isn't fine is not a universal truth from which the profession has to or must be judged by. Different people care about different things. Some people do not care about healing, support, DPS or even being accepted. Some people don't have to PUG and thus they play Raids/Fractals/Dungeons just fine as is.

 

What do they care about then? You can still RP with skills on the bar that do more damage, provide group support and scaleable defenses.

 

I just don't see why people who play Necros in static groups in endgame content would be upset about objectively performing better should Necromancer finally get looked at by the devs. What is the draw back?

I don't think Anet would ever go so far in a redesign to completely change the way a profession is played, nor change the entire theme of a profession.

What is the risk of a Necro overhaul? It can't sink lower.

 

But if we instead of discussing Necro's problems and possible fixes just go "That's just like, your opinion, man!", then I don't really see the point.

 

Necromancer is objectively performing poorly. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing it. I wouldn't spend my time discussing Necromancer if I didn't care about and enjoyed the profession. But there is plenty of room for improvement, which is required for the profession to be generally accepted in groups (and that not being the case should be a good enough hint that it currently isn't fine).

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> Also, people ask for reworks all the time. And people who identify with a profession think they are weak all the time. Go over to the Elementalist forums and you will see they think they are unplayable too. You would likely disagree with that assessment but I mention it to highlight how something being wrong with a profession is a matter of perspective and not always objective truth.

 

Elementalist is objectively still performing well across the game, while being still optimal on a variety of bosses and represented in all game modes. So yes, I would disagree with it being unplayable.

Neither did I ever say Necro is unplayable, it's just objectively the worst.

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> The idea that Necromancer is broken is an opinion. Based on how many Necromancer characters there and how many hours people spend playing the profession it is very difficult to say that it is the only valid side in this discussion.

 

Considering I have multiple Necros on my account and Necromancer being almost 50% of my total playtime in GW2 since the beta weekends over 6 years ago, as someone who plays all professions, I'm not sure how representative such numbers are to a discussion about the performance of the class.

 

Just because it's performing badly doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing it in content that allows it.

Especially in group scenarios where I don't want to feel like I have to be carried, I just wish it was better so I could play what I enjoy the most, Necro.