Its becoming less of a l2p issue.

[Israel.7056]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"shiri.4257" said:

> > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself.

> > > >

> > > > There lies the problem.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess.

> >

> > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. I dont care about meta most of the times in wvw roaming, and sometimes I get my kitten kicked from better players, and it is fine.

>

> Mmm ok, but this thread has nothing to do with the builds I used to use a long time ago and more about the current condition of PvP. Not really understanding where those dots connect to how i used to play being how the design in the game to this day has only been getting worse.

 

I would argue that specific major changes are causing most of the problems. The first obvious big problemstic change was condi stacking. Another was removing stats from trait lines. Another was giving everyone three grandmaster. Another was rolling traits together to make super traits. 4 stat gear in particular trailblazer mara minstrel but others are problems as well. And then obviously pof stuff in general is still too strong but the three main standouts have been firebrand scourge and spellbreaker. It's too easy to get too much basically.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > @"shiri.4257" said:

> > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > > I went for what was able to work and fun to play with for myself.

> > > > >

> > > > > There lies the problem.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you think thats a problem then I dont know what to tell you. I mean it was Pre HoT - HoT era SPvP stuff. Meta mentality players I guess.

> > >

> > > Yet, you cant expect your "fun and working build" to be better than someone's "working and meta" build. I dont care about meta most of the times in wvw roaming, and sometimes I get my kitten kicked from better players, and it is fine.

> >

> > Mmm ok, but this thread has nothing to do with the builds I used to use a long time ago and more about the current condition of PvP. Not really understanding where those dots connect to how i used to play being how the design in the game to this day has only been getting worse.

>

> I would argue that specific major changes are causing most of the problems. The first obvious big problemstic change was condi stacking. Another was removing stats from trait lines. Another was giving everyone three grandmaster. Another was rolling traits together to make super traits. 4 stat gear in particular trailblazer mara minstrel but others are problems as well. And then obviously pof stuff in general is still too strong but the three main standouts have been firebrand scourge and spellbreaker. It's too easy to get too much basically.

 

Very much agree with you there on all points. Well sort of half and half condi stacking, I can see that as ok as long as the applications werent as bad as they are now.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> >

> > ok. for me a warrior hits very slow and they rarely hit me in a 1 vs 1. if they hit you fast thats fine for me.

> >

> > the damage is overtuned - why? because you can kill a squishy with 1 hit ? if i kill a glass ele with 1 hit, that same hit wont tickle a bunker guard at all.

> > what kind of damage is appropriate? and how are we going to kill defensive builds without the damage we have?

> >

> > you dont expect to win but stand a chance? were is the difference? if the game is not based on luck then having a 'chance' means you win. if you know wich part of your attack is an evade and wich part is not , then you can avoid attacks with them. if you know wich part of your opponents attack is an evade and wich is not, you can apply damage/CC to them. as for core mechanics , stealth is also a core mechanic and there is revealed - how rude. there are counters to every mechanic except invuln wich is very limited and prevents captur point holding so it is ounished by the mode itself.

> >

> >

> Thats fine, if were talking about very slow attacks im sure many would agree that gaurdian hammer or necro staff would be considered slow.

>

> Thats not really a good reason to overtune damage. If bunker specs were unkillable you tone down defensive capabilities. And no it wouldnt tickle a gaurdian, unless they have a upkeep of protection.

>

> Having a chance means your able to put up a fight and come very close to winning, sometimes luck is a factor on sigil procs and hoping terrain plays in your favor of using nav mesh and projectile pathing against your opponent. I wouldnt really call stealth a core mechanic on the scale of dodge, everyone can dodge, not everyone can stealth. And while there is revealed, anet took it upon themselves to add a ability to remove revealed.

 

guardian can teleport with his hammer mid animation and necro staff skills considering range and area are still easier to apply than most warrior skills.

 

but exactly thats the issue thre is alot of sustain in the game, now people complain about damage. if we nerf sustain and damage people will again complain about damage or sustain. it has to be in a balance. and considering sustain the damage is not overtune.

 

no you dont hope terrain plays in your favor, you know wich terrain plays in your favor and abuse it. but then again its not about chance.

there is very few things in this game that are really random that matters for a fight, everything else is l2p. rune of durability for example as it applies the effect before the hit, it is a 25% to protect you from a single hit oneshot opener. but aside from that RNG has very little effect on the outcome of a fight wich makes it l2p. if you like certain mechanics or not is irrelevant its still l2p.

[Sovereign.1093]

guardian hammer normal attack is slow but hammer skill 2 spam is very fast.

 

we did try before a pure hammer guard group. was epic. no condi penetrated. coordinated hammer 2 down trapped killed lesser animals.

 

do not underestimate the hammer =)

[Shadow Order.7258]

Let me teach you how to play.

 

Step 1: Roll condi mirage

Step 2: apply face to keyboard

Step 3: Roll face over keyboard

Step 4: Win

Step 5: Go to forum and convince balance lead who plays mesmer that class needs no nerfs/ needs buffs

Step 6: Spam l2p to anyone who says you are over performing in forums

 

Balance and l2p is that easy!

 

Stay tuned for my next ultimate l2p guide

 

[Sovereign.1093]

=) need video. like faceroll necro. =p

[Trajan.4953]

I personally don't think the o p is that far out of the norm. Like it or not the game is changed and there are plenty of overpowered abilities in place. You can counter with many arguments like the usual crew have done, all of which are designed to make them feel Superior as opposed to addressing the actual issue which is the simple fact that there is no balance in this game. I see every new poster getting gang banged by the same crowd who have their own agendas. Locking them down and trying to denigrate their opinions to further their own agendas. That is the way of forums I suppose

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Trajan.4953" said:

> I personally don't think the o p is that far out of the norm. Like it or not the game is changed and there are plenty of overpowered abilities in place. You can counter with many arguments like the usual crew have done, all of which are designed to make them feel Superior as opposed to addressing the actual issue which is the simple fact that there is no balance in this game. I see every new poster getting gang banged by the same crowd who have their own agendas. Locking them down and trying to denigrate their opinions to further their own agendas. That is the way of forums I suppose

 

The poster is a core engi complaining about everyone who outperforms him when he himself clearly states he hates optimized good builds.

 

You can't pick traits, gear and utilities at random, go full special snowflake then throw a tantrum it's not a balanced or meta build. No game can EVER achieve this level of snowflakism. Won't happen. You want a perfectly, rigorously balanced game in which there are no bad options. Because frankly, half you snowflakes are intentionally (or naively) going for the worst options; then playing it badly without even paying attention to what your enemies do or how you could counter them, then ranting the game isn't balanced.

 

Meanwhile current WvW meta is better than ti has been at ANY point since PoF and on large scale seems to be relatively healthy in balance. Especially for engi, which currently has both scrapper and holo in a better spot than engi has EVER been in group play. Meanwhile it's literally META and insanely strong in roaming and smaller scale too.

 

Oh wait, my bad, OP managed to play the core engi build as frontline grenade spammer. Let me just ask them to buff that into the meta. Then buff dodges, because clearly the dodge mechanic isn't strong enough. You should be able to dodge EVERYTHING and condies shouldn't even tick while you're dodging!

 

Roaming is a joke and will never be balanced unless they do a full rework. If you want more balanced PvP, go sPVP where balance isn't too awful either. Except if you're a special snowflake, altho even among the viable meme builds there are plenty great soloQ builds.

 

There IS counterplay for a LOT of stuff. There are quite a few things that are also VIABLE to be played even at a high level. This high level of play IS NOT REQUIRED ANYWHERE because almost all enemies are awful, don't know plays or counterplays. Hell, most enemies are like OP : literally useless as soon as you drop a reflect. So you CAN play almost anything, as long as you understand the game and you're ACTUALLY GOOD AT IT. Or you can run GOOD builds and perform well without being good.

 

But this thread just like half the others? Bad players playing bad builds throwing a tantrum about balance pretending it's not them just being godawful at the game.

 

You should first learn how the game is played and get good at it, then make your own special "improved" builds or talk about balance. If you don't know what is going on, you can't talk about balance. It's genuinely that simple.

 

We can throw these tantrums continuously, but there's not ONE thread on this WvW subforum that actually discusses the REAL meta. And no, i don't consider sov's thoughts a reflection of the actual meta. And in the ACTUAL meta, engi has gotten much better throughout the last patches showing that unlike you plebs anet has some kind of vision towards balance. Sure, it takes a year per expansion just to get most classes into viability... Yet nothing posted here even helps with that. Just mindless spam from bad players complaining about their own L2P issues.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Trajan.4953" said:

> I personally don't think the o p is that far out of the norm. Like it or not the game is changed and there are plenty of overpowered abilities in place. You can counter with many arguments like the usual crew have done, all of which are designed to make them feel Superior as opposed to addressing the actual issue which is the simple fact that there is no balance in this game. I see every new poster getting gang banged by the same crowd who have their own agendas. Locking them down and trying to denigrate their opinions to further their own agendas. That is the way of forums I suppose

 

forum warriors are epin you know =)

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"Trajan.4953" said:

> > I personally don't think the o p is that far out of the norm. Like it or not the game is changed and there are plenty of overpowered abilities in place. You can counter with many arguments like the usual crew have done, all of which are designed to make them feel Superior as opposed to addressing the actual issue which is the simple fact that there is no balance in this game. I see every new poster getting gang banged by the same crowd who have their own agendas. Locking them down and trying to denigrate their opinions to further their own agendas. That is the way of forums I suppose

>

> forum warriors are epin you know =)

 

I seem to remember a certain low-end PPT guild posting about their great raids on a very very regular basis on the unofficial WvW forums only to remain laughing stock of the majority of the EU pop. Just because most of this population has left doesn't mean it's any less true now.

 

I do hear NA is more appreciative of bad PPT guilds. CoverageWars2.

Are you not a forum warrior epeening?

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"Trajan.4953" said:

> > > I personally don't think the o p is that far out of the norm. Like it or not the game is changed and there are plenty of overpowered abilities in place. You can counter with many arguments like the usual crew have done, all of which are designed to make them feel Superior as opposed to addressing the actual issue which is the simple fact that there is no balance in this game. I see every new poster getting gang banged by the same crowd who have their own agendas. Locking them down and trying to denigrate their opinions to further their own agendas. That is the way of forums I suppose

> >

> > forum warriors are epin you know =)

>

> I seem to remember a certain low-end PPT guild posting about their great raids on a very very regular basis on the unofficial WvW forums only to remain laughing stock of the majority of the EU pop. Just because most of this population has left doesn't mean it's any less true now.

>

> I do hear NA is more appreciative of bad PPT guilds. CoverageWars2.

> Are you not a forum warrior epeening?

 

do you mean yourself? i must have made some sort of landmark among you eu guys. cant seem to get over me. =)

 

1. i am not that familiar with guilds in eu since i never really cared about that.

 

but if you were refering to my guild. well meh, we get all the hate we got from farming the lesser animals when we had the deso blob. it came to the point where instead of worrying about the enemy it was more who will the deso pugs follow?

 

me? bel? dye? or others. which resulted to running closed raids with my 10 guildies.

 

looking back at it, was fun times. but not going back to that lifestyle. if i can pull tomy to na, it'd be awesome. he'd like it here. but he does not play at my timezone.

 

playing 2am to 6am is not healthy. whereas compared to na, i can play 10pm onwards.

 

3. i doubt any na group is appreciative of any bad players. in a way, na players show more skill diversity versus eu. =)

so far the last recorded matchup between na and eu, na won that gvg.

 

i think the last good stuff that came from eu was from the time of RG.

 

3. no, i am not. =)

[iKeostuKen.2738]

This guy.

 

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

>

> The poster is a core engi complaining about everyone who outperforms him when he himself clearly states he hates optimized good builds.

>

 

For one I play many classes and many different builds. Your stuck on me asking for WoD to get its remove projectile effect nerfed because it created a zone that made it completely projectile free from the inside and outside, while ontop of being a large negation skill that gets rid of all boon play. Something thats not only used in zergs but can be used for roaming that would get a spellbreaker 10 more seconds of invulnerability against a class thats projectile based? If you dont see an issue with that then this game needs to adds 10 second fields of no cleave/melee on a short cooldown since its healthy design.

 

> You can't pick traits, gear and utilities at random, go full special snowflake then throw a tantrum it's not a balanced or meta build. No game can EVER achieve this level of snowflakism. Won't happen. You want a perfectly, rigorously balanced game in which there are no bad options. Because frankly, half you snowflakes are intentionally (or naively) going for the worst options; then playing it badly without even paying attention to what your enemies do or how you could counter them, then ranting the game isn't balanced.

>

 

Funny you say this, I dont rememebr anyone saying what build was used. But I do remember you pushing for every engineer thats not holosmith to be reduced to a healers role. Sadly this game isnt balanced for rewards about you wanting to be a support.

 

> Meanwhile current WvW meta is better than ti has been at ANY point since PoF and on large scale seems to be relatively healthy in balance. Especially for engi, which currently has both scrapper and holo in a better spot than engi has EVER been in group play. Meanwhile it's literally META and insanely strong in roaming and smaller scale too.

>

 

Actually its not, but if you believe a room full of red circles and lag is the better meta, then I really question your ability to judge what balance and good design truly are.

 

> Oh wait, my bad, OP managed to play the core engi build as frontline grenade spammer. Let me just ask them to buff that into the meta. Then buff dodges, because clearly the dodge mechanic isn't strong enough. You should be able to dodge EVERYTHING and condies shouldn't even tick while you're dodging!

>

 

I havent played grenade spam since before HoT when it still had its traited longer range. After that I never used it again. You must be thinking about me using mortar, one of engineers actual good elites? No one asked to buff dodges either, so I dont know where you got that from.

 

> Roaming is a joke and will never be balanced unless they do a full rework. If you want more balanced PvP, go sPVP where balance isn't too awful either. Except if you're a special snowflake, altho even among the viable meme builds there are plenty great soloQ builds.

>

 

Roaming is pretty much similar to SPvP if your using small groups or have 1v1 engagments, its just not focusing on one point. If you think a monoblob is the only way WvW should be played then I dont know what else to say to you on the subject.

 

> There IS counterplay for a LOT of stuff. There are quite a few things that are also VIABLE to be played even at a high level. This high level of play IS NOT REQUIRED ANYWHERE because almost all enemies are awful, don't know plays or counterplays. Hell, most enemies are like OP : literally useless as soon as you drop a reflect. So you CAN play almost anything, as long as you understand the game and you're ACTUALLY GOOD AT IT. Or you can run GOOD builds and perform well without being good.

>

 

While there is counterplay there are also things that perform to well with holding little to no risk to obtain there insane results. Overtuned skills/traits and damage modifiers that need to see the door.

 

> But this thread just like half the others? Bad players playing bad builds throwing a tantrum about balance pretending it's not them just being godawful at the game.

>

> You should first learn how the game is played and get good at it, then make your own special "improved" builds or talk about balance. If you don't know what is going on, you can't talk about balance. It's genuinely that simple.

>

 

With all the misinformation you tossed in this post alone, its obvious that you have no idea what you speak of and are throwing around this "im better then everyone else" facade.

 

> We can throw these tantrums continuously, but there's not ONE thread on this WvW subforum that actually discusses the REAL meta. And no, i don't consider sov's thoughts a reflection of the actual meta. And in the ACTUAL meta, engi has gotten much better throughout the last patches showing that unlike you plebs anet has some kind of vision towards balance. Sure, it takes a year per expansion just to get most classes into viability... Yet nothing posted here even helps with that. Just mindless spam from bad players complaining about their own L2P issues.

 

Engi? You mean Holosmith has gotten better. Sure, its a PoF class if its not overtuned for success then how else will anet sucker more people to buy the expansion until the next one rolls out. Direct me to turret buffs, kit buffs, gadgets being in a good spot aside from rocket boots, trait reworks for the many useless ones we have had since the trait change. Things that are actually underperforming and have been so for years.

 

[Etheri.5406]

@"iKeostuKen.2738"

 

I agree powercreep is bad. I agree the game is far from balanced, and there are many overperforming options.

 

I disagree we should listen to ANYTHING you say for improvement. You don't grasp the current meta nor do you have a view for improving it. You barely attack symptoms you struggle with, most of them not even relevant to improving this. I'm not saying balance is perfect, i'm saying it's safe to ignore any suggestions you make.

 

>With all the misinformation you tossed in this post alone, its obvious that you have no idea what you speak of and are throwing around this "im better then everyone else" facade.

 

Funny coming from you ;). Pretty much every meta analysis you make is depressing.

 

>Engi? You mean Holosmith has gotten better. Sure, its a PoF class if its not overtuned for success then how else will anet sucker more people to buy the expansion until the next one rolls out. Direct me to turret buffs, kit buffs, gadgets being in a good spot aside from rocket boots, trait reworks for the many useless ones we have had since the trait change. Things that are actually underperforming and have been so for years.

 

No I mean engi. Scrapper has gotten WAY better. Heal engi has gotten better. Holo has gotten better. Both scrapper and holo are seeing play now, on completely different builds in large scale for the first time in years... Yet here you are pretending it's awful because "your" core engi build is still trash.

 

Meanwhile small scale engi holo is EVEN MORE DOMINANT than it used to be due to nerfs to many of the other meta-spots including mirage for solo and scourge for group play.

 

So ENGI currently has viable builds in roaming and zerging at completely different playstyles.

Because of CHANGES TO KITS AND TRAITS you mention didn't exist.

 

>Direct me to turret buffs, kit buffs, gadgets being in a good spot aside from rocket boots, trait reworks for the many useless ones we have had since the trait change. Things that are actually underperforming and have been so for years.

 

Lets see, medkit major buffs bringing scrapper and heal engi in a way better spot.

Purity of purpose also adding to that. Elixer changes to rebalance those compared to the other alternatives.

 

Oh wait. It's not your mortar core engi. My bad. Oh wait it's not afk turret engi being viable in zergs... Who'd have thought? Do you expect each option to be equally valuable in all scenarios?

 

As I said, you expect to select random garbage traits and options without even KNOWING or GRASPING the meta and coming up with a balanced, synergetic "well performing" build. That will NEVER happen.

 

In the real world, engi is in a pretty good spot considering the amount of attention and balancing WvW receives. In the real world, your suggestions are mostly irrelevant because you really really do not know the meta, nor how it is played, nor how to balance it. The only thing I agree on is that "everything" should be toned down, a lot, because the powercreep doesn't improve the gameplay at all. Everything else? Meaningless tears.

[SoV.5139]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > You guys were quick to lobby to do away with the old bunker meta talking about how it wasn't skillful play, and this is what happened. You got a new meta that makes that meta look like a masters tourney. One shot kill power builds, stealth+reset abuse roamers, omni-blob, all basically a complete elimination of strategy and counter play.

> >

> > Give us the old bunker meta back. It was light years ahead of whats in place now, strategy and counter play wise.

> >

> > PVE game got much better, but the PVP modes, much worse.

>

> the bunker still works. ppl only dont use it. =p

 

Link me a few good bunkers that dont get crushed by holo or thief trying to hold a position. Im pretty sure Ive tried them all, but I will entertain the notion that I missed something if I can still build a counter to the current power meta builds that still works.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > You guys were quick to lobby to do away with the old bunker meta talking about how it wasn't skillful play, and this is what happened. You got a new meta that makes that meta look like a masters tourney. One shot kill power builds, stealth+reset abuse roamers, omni-blob, all basically a complete elimination of strategy and counter play.

> > >

> > > Give us the old bunker meta back. It was light years ahead of whats in place now, strategy and counter play wise.

> > >

> > > PVE game got much better, but the PVP modes, much worse.

> >

> > the bunker still works. ppl only dont use it. =p

>

> Link me a few good bunkers that dont get crushed by holo or thief trying to hold a position. Im pretty sure Ive tried them all, but I will entertain the notion that I missed something if I can still build a counter to the current power meta builds that still works.

 

msg me in game. we can talk there. =) or thru mail.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> @"iKeostuKen.2738"

>

> I agree powercreep is bad. I agree the game is far from balanced, and there are many overperforming options.

>

> I disagree we should listen to ANYTHING you say for improvement. You don't grasp the current meta nor do you have a view for improving it. You barely attack symptoms you struggle with, most of them not even relevant to improving this. I'm not saying balance is perfect, i'm saying it's safe to ignore any suggestions you make.

>

 

Why would I work on improving the meta when its already overtuned? You dont continue to add sugar to a cake because its already to sweet. You remove it so it taste better. Same with the design process. Things that are overtuned need to be toned down, thats how you improve the end result.

 

 

>

> No I mean engi. Scrapper has gotten WAY better. Heal engi has gotten better. Holo has gotten better. Both scrapper and holo are seeing play now, on completely different builds in large scale for the first time in years... Yet here you are pretending it's awful because "your" core engi build is still trash.

>

> Meanwhile small scale engi holo is EVEN MORE DOMINANT than it used to be due to nerfs to many of the other meta-spots including mirage for solo and scourge for group play.

>

> So ENGI currently has viable builds in roaming and zerging at completely different playstyles.

> Because of CHANGES TO KITS AND TRAITS you mention didn't exist.

>

>

> Lets see, medkit major buffs bringing scrapper and heal engi in a way better spot.

> Purity of purpose also adding to that. Elixer changes to rebalance those compared to the other alternatives.

>

Holo is already in a good position, it doesnt need buffs. If anything its design was heading in the right direction. HIgh Damage - High risk.

What exactly has Core Engi and Scrapper gotten to make it waaaaay better as you say. Becoming a heal bot? Sure its better but Its not fixing a lot of issues the engineer still face, step in the right direction for kit reworks yes.

 

> Oh wait. It's not your mortar core engi. My bad. Oh wait it's not afk turret engi being viable in zergs... Who'd have thought? Do you expect each option to be equally valuable in all scenarios?

>

 

Weird, no one said it had to be viable in zergs, but useful in the game , yes. Did you know a sylvari's racial elite actually has more defense power then a engineers turret? Amazing.

 

> As I said, you expect to select random garbage traits and options without even KNOWING or GRASPING the meta and coming up with a balanced, synergetic "well performing" build. That will NEVER happen.

>

> In the real world, engi is in a pretty good spot considering the amount of attention and balancing WvW receives. In the real world, your suggestions are mostly irrelevant because you really really do not know the meta, nor how it is played, nor how to balance it. The only thing I agree on is that "everything" should be toned down, a lot, because the powercreep doesn't improve the gameplay at all. Everything else? Meaningless tears.

 

As stated before, what garbage traits and options am I selecting? My issue with engineer is that all the projectile hate the game is getting is not helping with the current state of engineer. With there implmentations the engineer isnt being brought up to snuff to handle these situations aside from being forced into healbot?

[Etheri.5406]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"iKeostuKen.2738"

> >

> > I agree powercreep is bad. I agree the game is far from balanced, and there are many overperforming options.

> >

> > I disagree we should listen to ANYTHING you say for improvement. You don't grasp the current meta nor do you have a view for improving it. You barely attack symptoms you struggle with, most of them not even relevant to improving this. I'm not saying balance is perfect, i'm saying it's safe to ignore any suggestions you make.

> >

>

> Why would I work on improving the meta when its already overtuned? You dont continue to add sugar to a cake because its already to sweet. You remove it so it taste better. Same with the design process. Things that are overtuned need to be toned down, thats how you improve the end result.

>

>

> >

> > No I mean engi. Scrapper has gotten WAY better. Heal engi has gotten better. Holo has gotten better. Both scrapper and holo are seeing play now, on completely different builds in large scale for the first time in years... Yet here you are pretending it's awful because "your" core engi build is still trash.

> >

> > Meanwhile small scale engi holo is EVEN MORE DOMINANT than it used to be due to nerfs to many of the other meta-spots including mirage for solo and scourge for group play.

> >

> > So ENGI currently has viable builds in roaming and zerging at completely different playstyles.

> > Because of CHANGES TO KITS AND TRAITS you mention didn't exist.

> >

> >

> > Lets see, medkit major buffs bringing scrapper and heal engi in a way better spot.

> > Purity of purpose also adding to that. Elixer changes to rebalance those compared to the other alternatives.

> >

> Holo is already in a good position, it doesnt need buffs. If anything its design was heading in the right direction. HIgh Damage - High risk.

> What exactly has Core Engi and Scrapper gotten to make it waaaaay better as you say. Becoming a heal bot? Sure its better but Its not fixing a lot of issues the engineer still face, step in the right direction for kit reworks yes.

 

Right, reworking traits to balance in between them isn't better. Buffing supportive kits isn't better. Nerfing scourge, fb, rev, weaver and spellbreaker (all of which got nerfed on their meta builds) isn't either.

 

Clearly. As I said, OOPS IT'S NOT YOUR PROJECTILE SPAM MORTAR BUILD. MY BAD.

 

>

> > Oh wait. It's not your mortar core engi. My bad. Oh wait it's not afk turret engi being viable in zergs... Who'd have thought? Do you expect each option to be equally valuable in all scenarios?

> >

>

> Weird, no one said it had to be viable in zergs, but useful in the game , yes. Did you know a sylvari's racial elite actually has more defense power then a engineers turret? Amazing.

 

You mean turrets like heal turret, which is still META and prior to those "heal bot" changes the only heal which was ever for pvp / wvw?

Right. You expect TURRETS to be "competitive" in PvP. Yeah goodluck with that. When they were it lead to a godawful, inbalanced meta which is exactly why they were nerfed.

 

About "viable in the game"... Engi currently has 3 (!!!) top-tier PvE builds : condi holo, condi engi and power holo. It also has meme scrapper heal build.

It has a top tier roaming build in holo. Top tier pvp build in holo. Top tier zerg build in scrapper. Holo also viable. Several builds great in openworld.

 

So ... yeah there are useful builds for engi everywhere in the game. They're also different builds, good at different things. Including, lets see, every goddamn kit in the game being used in these builds.

 

What exactly makes you think engi is in a bad spot atm? Oh right, you don't have a clue about the meta. You're just here to "improve it" with nerfs in the wrong places because you're biased without realising they are actually nerfing all overperforming classes and options in WvW. Maybe not very quickly, but they certainly are.

 

>

> > As I said, you expect to select random garbage traits and options without even KNOWING or GRASPING the meta and coming up with a balanced, synergetic "well performing" build. That will NEVER happen.

> >

> > In the real world, engi is in a pretty good spot considering the amount of attention and balancing WvW receives. In the real world, your suggestions are mostly irrelevant because you really really do not know the meta, nor how it is played, nor how to balance it. The only thing I agree on is that "everything" should be toned down, a lot, because the powercreep doesn't improve the gameplay at all. Everything else? Meaningless tears.

>

> As stated before, what garbage traits and options am I selecting? My issue with engineer is that all the projectile hate the game is getting is not helping with the current state of engineer. With there implmentations the engineer isnt being brought up to snuff to handle these situations aside from being forced into healbot?

 

Link your build we'll have a look, but as its mortar core engi surely it'll be quite entertaining.

 

Engineer was one of the biggest additions of projectile hate during HoT with scrapper. It's also not forced to being a healbot - projectiles just aren't amazing in large group fights unless you aim them properly. Furthermore, mortar can NEVER become free fire as it can hit players reliably from both attacking and defending side of the wall without requiring LoS - something no other class can do. Good eles still get fireball as their #2nd biggest DPS source... Did I mention L2P issues? Right.

 

Your "mortar projectile build" doesn't need to become WvW meta. But it's already meta at clearing certain siege placements from both sides of the wall. I can agree with the general idea that WvW is far from balanced, balance should be improved, overperforming specs should be nerfed. No doubt. But any SPECIFIC things you mention? Holy shit it's out of wack.

 

So lets just say... "hey anet, please keep nerfing overperforming classes and improve balance a tiny bit faster if you can. Oh and ignore any specifics that these hardcore casuals mention because they truthfully don't know what they're talking about."

 

Glad we reached an agreement :)

 

Here I am, watching engi be in a very healthy good spot in all three gamemodes - frankly better than it's ever been before. It has viable builds everywhere, often even different variations. These builds involve support, condi and power builds. All three specs, engi, holo and scrapper are used (for different niches, of course). So yeah :trollface:

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Why are you bringing PvE talk into this? This is WvW centered discussion.

 

And It is better to nerf other classes if they are "Overperforming". Nerfing and buffing has been a means of balancing in every mmorpg that cared about its power scaling. If you got another way on how to balance the game please share with the devs if you dont think nerfing is how it should be done. Its not about just overtuned abilities but also on game design in general. Hence why I keep bringing up Risk vs Reward. What are these classes risking and giving up in order to obtain the restults they are pushing out.

 

But Id rather not discuss what engineer is good at or not as this isnt the topic for it. Ontop of many of your mindless accusations on my playstyle being completely unhealthy for the discussion as its mostly just assumptions of what I used or havent used. Post a discussion on the profession's channel if you want to further discuss how engineer is performing in the game currently in a PvP, WvW setting.

 

 

[revox.8273]

all the classes that etheri mentioned got nerfed in wvw also, is some cases pretty hard

just link your build for wvw and what gear u use

everything is "overperforming" if your build is "underperforming" and i bet this is the case for you

[shiri.4257]

The SB dome, in a 1v1 situation or even roaming situation is negligible. As you said you get 10s of projectile hate in a glaring yellow circle. The warrior is prolly using melee weps, so for it to have any effect he has to stand in it. All you have to do, is stand at 1500 range /laugh /cheer for 10s then resume your highly skilled game play. And not blow your cds since if the SB leaves the dome, he is open to your projectile spam.

 

However, there is a massive advantage for multiple domes in an enclosed area like chokes. Open field, requires a bit of baiting a few out then circling around or skirting the edges of it. I fully expect my squad to have the ability to maneuver between 3 domes in the open and reapply boons in certain closed corridors. Nonetheless, every time I get my group caught in 5 domes, that's on me. Usually the first couple engagements the commander needs to count out how many domes the enemy has and determine how and where to engage.

 

Alot of players multi class. The question begs to ask, are they good at every single one of those classes?

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"revox.8273" said:

> all the classes that etheri mentioned got nerfed in wvw also, is some cases pretty hard

> just link your build for wvw and what gear u use

> everything is "overperforming" if your build is "underperforming" and i bet this is the case for you

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhaqYjXwkLQ7FLbG042/eACbXui63tzdvB-j1BFABFq+jSKFA4BAgkyua2fINdAQcBAlgAA-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXFWQVq0AoASg/RMFfR1L4DGBA-jVyFQBH7IAAM1fQwDAAAHCAcp8zjKBL5+DcQPw60EAA-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAnXVnE8Cl8itrAerAUtgFHBL/42cnuNNgLQHgJAM5qcl48uA-j1haABboFQw9HsUTAAKDMV9HH1BUmSPA-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBHhF6kjGobTs2GwcTgeTskLYQBgGwKgaLsGaWxXxt4YE-jFCFwAoU/Jj+AIKBB8EAGcIAMcCAat/ASlfAA-w

 

From what I can remember are the most used sets. Engineer for Zergs. Renegade for mix of roam and zerging. Ranger just roaming. Reaper for anything.

 

For the rest.

Mesmer, been to long since i played. Was condi in the past but it was to easy that I felt bad for using it.

Warrior, Made it as a joke, was for old school Rifle/GS action, it was pretty fun.

Gaurdian and Firebrand, standard metabattle support. Using Mace/Shield and Staff.

Elementalist, Just went full burst since celestials was to draining to get back then. Around HoT. Got Weaver, still burst.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

> @"shiri.4257" said:

> The SB dome, in a 1v1 situation or even roaming situation is negligible. As you said you get 10s of projectile hate in a glaring yellow circle. The warrior is prolly using melee weps, so for it to have any effect he has to stand in it. All you have to do, is stand at 1500 range /laugh /cheer for 10s then resume your highly skilled game play. And not blow your cds since if the SB leaves the dome, he is open to your projectile spam.

>

> However, there is a massive advantage for multiple domes in an enclosed area like chokes. Open field, requires a bit of baiting a few out then circling around or skirting the edges of it. I fully expect my squad to have the ability to maneuver between 3 domes in the open and reapply boons in certain closed corridors. Nonetheless, every time I get my group caught in 5 domes, that's on me. Usually the first couple engagements the commander needs to count out how many domes the enemy has and determine how and where to engage.

>

> Alot of players multi class. The question begs to ask, are they good at every single one of those classes?

 

Ah...yes, 10 seconds of them getting health back from healing signet and there cooldowns for more invuln coming back. Shield off cooldown as well. Exciting fight.

 

God forbid the warriors that martyr in and drop it in the middle of the blob and run back out or stay in and cleave as much as possible lol. For a ability that has as much game changing power on a 90 second cooldown without alacrity, its pretty overtuned. If it didnt block projectiles it would be in a better state for that cooldown. Hell you got things that only get your character killed faster or do much less on longer cooldowns on other classes.

[shiri.4257]

Wait...the broken part of the suicide zoning dome in your eyes is the projectile block? Are you one of those SB that drops winds on the lord to stop the meteors and npc guards from hitting you?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"revox.8273" said:

> > all the classes that etheri mentioned got nerfed in wvw also, is some cases pretty hard

> > just link your build for wvw and what gear u use

> > everything is "overperforming" if your build is "underperforming" and i bet this is the case for you

>

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhaqYjXwkLQ7FLbG042/eACbXui63tzdvB-j1BFABFq+jSKFA4BAgkyua2fINdAQcBAlgAA-w

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXFWQVq0AoASg/RMFfR1L4DGBA-jVyFQBH7IAAM1fQwDAAAHCAcp8zjKBL5+DcQPw60EAA-w

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAnXVnE8Cl8itrAerAUtgFHBL/42cnuNNgLQHgJAM5qcl48uA-j1haABboFQw9HsUTAAKDMV9HH1BUmSPA-w

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBHhF6kjGobTs2GwcTgeTskLYQBgGwKgaLsGaWxXxt4YE-jFCFwAoU/Jj+AIKBB8EAGcIAMcCAat/ASlfAA-w

>

> From what I can remember are the most used sets. Engineer for Zergs. Renegade for mix of roam and zerging. Ranger just roaming. Reaper for anything.

>

> For the rest.

> Mesmer, been to long since i played. Was condi in the past but it was to easy that I felt bad for using it.

> Warrior, Made it as a joke, was for old school Rifle/GS action, it was pretty fun.

> Gaurdian and Firebrand, standard metabattle support. Using Mace/Shield and Staff.

> Elementalist, Just went full burst since celestials was to draining to get back then. Around HoT. Got Weaver, still burst.

 

did you make those trait/skill/gear choices etc. because you think they are optimal or because you like them?

for example your reapers spite traitline grandmaster trait, why did you choose close to death over spiteful spirit?

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"revox.8273" said:

> > all the classes that etheri mentioned got nerfed in wvw also, is some cases pretty hard

> > just link your build for wvw and what gear u use

> > everything is "overperforming" if your build is "underperforming" and i bet this is the case for you

>

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhaqYjXwkLQ7FLbG042/eACbXui63tzdvB-j1BFABFq+jSKFA4BAgkyua2fINdAQcBAlgAA-w

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXFWQVq0AoASg/RMFfR1L4DGBA-jVyFQBH7IAAM1fQwDAAAHCAcp8zjKBL5+DcQPw60EAA-w

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAnXVnE8Cl8itrAerAUtgFHBL/42cnuNNgLQHgJAM5qcl48uA-j1haABboFQw9HsUTAAKDMV9HH1BUmSPA-w

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBHhF6kjGobTs2GwcTgeTskLYQBgGwKgaLsGaWxXxt4YE-jFCFwAoU/Jj+AIKBB8EAGcIAMcCAat/ASlfAA-w

>

> From what I can remember are the most used sets. Engineer for Zergs. Renegade for mix of roam and zerging. Ranger just roaming. Reaper for anything.

>

> For the rest.

> Mesmer, been to long since i played. Was condi in the past but it was to easy that I felt bad for using it.

> Warrior, Made it as a joke, was for old school Rifle/GS action, it was pretty fun.

> Gaurdian and Firebrand, standard metabattle support. Using Mace/Shield and Staff.

> Elementalist, Just went full burst since celestials was to draining to get back then. Around HoT. Got Weaver, still burst.

 

I don't have PoF so I can't comment much on Renegade but I'm curious about those Renegade runes that add ferocity. This appears to be a condi build and there's not much ferocity stacked in general, so I'm not really sure why it'd be picked.

 

Your engi build is not very good, for anything really. Turrets are single target and last about 0.05 seconds in a Zerg. Zergs need area of effect. You'd be better off diving in the middle of them and using thumper turret though I don't recommend that either. Explosives is a wasted trait line since Mortar damage is very low and there is massive projectile hate. It's a support kit at best. Rifle is poor for similar reasons though as core Engi, you can't really do anything about it. The only useful things you bring are water fields and the tool kit pull, but you're not taking the toolkit trait. And there's essentially no condi clear because no alchemy. And full zerker with little mobility and only 1 passive stunbreak. If someone throws up a reflect field, it's possible you'll end up doing negative damage (ie, reflect it back at your team). And this has nothing to do with the expansions or balance. It would have never been good.

 

It just doesn't do enough to help the group. You could, say take lock-on instead of takedown round. Rocket boots could help you reposition yourself and blast water fields, since you surely won't be getting stability from any group.

 

But there's a lot of things that could be done for them to work well in small groups. But you really have to think of maximizing group utility, or otherwise you're stuck with a 1v1 build, and it doesn't really work for that either. Though if you swap for rocket boots and static discharge, as well as some marauder gear, you could have a workable roam build. I mean, you'll at least have some degree of fun and success with it.

 

Now, truth be told, Core Engi, (or really any Engi) isn't that great for zergs compared to the other meta classes. Heck, even eles that bring much more group utilities have been phased out; it's a pretty stupid meta and I'm not really sure who got the bright idea that Guardians should be able to do anything support related. There really isn't much room for innovation because of this, and added to the fact that the game has been aging (and in terms of balance, dying) that means that most options have already been tried, and one isn't adding anything new by straying off the beaten path. That's just what happens when a game lacks depth but you want more.

 

I mean, I didn't even buy PoF, so I'm naturally out of the meta. I just ended up having to stick with what works and that's mostly hammer rev and sometimes I can even kill people in 1v1/small scale fights. That doesn't mean hammer rev is good for solo; that just means a lot of players are clueless. But hey, at this rate, it's not about being good, but rather about being marginally less bad than other people.