Improvisation

[Jack Redline.5379]

So basically Improvisations definition : "You can use stolen skills twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal."

It has 20 sec CD

the problem is the one random skill category is immediately recharged part doesnt work. At least not always after 20 sec CD is gone. I was testing it today in WvW and the skill would be recharged only like 2/5 times each time i stopped 20 sec, I know it becasuse I have 20 sec CD on a Steal itself = each steal should applicate Improvisation by what the skill says right. But as i said it doesnt do it always. If anyone has more insight into this i would appreciate

[pureskullz.7536]

So are you putting it as it's not refreshing a random skill and are you checking your elite? Also Just a thought don't know if this actually happens but maybe it's refreshing an already refreshed skill?

[ROMANG.1903]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> So basically Improvisations definition : "You can use stolen skills twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal."

> It has 20 sec CD

> the problem is the one random skill category is immediately recharged part doesnt work. At least not always after 20 sec CD is gone. I was testing it today in WvW and the skill would be recharged only like 2/5 times each time i stopped 20 sec, I know it becasuse I have 20 sec CD on a Steal itself = each steal should applicate Improvisation by what the skill says right. But as i said it doesnt do it always. If anyone has more insight into this i would appreciate

 

This is purely supposition, but it may be that one random skill category is recharged, regardless of wether you equiped it or not. So for example if you have no tricks equiped, it might still be that category that gets recharged, effectively recharging none of your equiped skills.

 

My personnal opinion is that all traits or skills based on pure luck are complete garbage, and I feel like that one in particular takes this to an even higher level. I don't mean to offend the devs who worked on it, the idea is fun on paper, but becomes frustrating and impractical in practice.

 

**Edit:** A quick look at the wiki page seems to confirm what I beleive:

_"Randomly selects one of the 5–6 skill types (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, deception, and Daredevil physical or Deadeye cantrips) to recharge, so **it will not necessarily choose a skill type that you are using**."_

Funny thing, using an elite specialisation effectively weakens that trait, because it increases its randomness, by making it pick 1 out of 6 skill types, instead of 1 out of the 5 core types. In others words, by using an elite spec, you are even less likely to get a recharge on the type of skills you're using.

[babazhook.6805]

Improv takes the enitre pool of skills and refreshes ONE of those even if you do not have it traited. Otherwise it would be too powerful as one could trait all tricks as example and get all to recharge.

 

If you go core there a pool of 5 skill types so your changes one in five if you have all tricks. If you have three tricks and three venoms then your chances of one group refreshing is 2 in 5 and so on.

 

If you trait DD or DE the odds drop to 1/6.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> Improv takes the enitre pool of skills and refreshes ONE of those even if you do not have it traited. Otherwise it would be too powerful as one could trait all tricks as example and get all to recharge.

 

but it should be working like that i mean why would i want to get recharged venom if i dont use it... They should either improve the cd or do something about it or it is inefficient

[omgdracula.6345]

I agree that this should be reworked. To @"Jack Redline.5379" 's point. If he traits all tricks there is a 20% chance they will be what refreshes which I guess you could say is a trade off, but it should only take into account skills you have equipped with a base chance.

 

I don't disagree it would be OP but also having a trait take into account skills not being used also seems poorly thought out.

[omgdracula.6345]

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Can you chime in by chance on this? Or pass it along?

[MUDse.7623]

this has been brought up in the past.

the only way i think they can make it a guranteed refresh, is if it only refreshes randomly one skill on your bar from 6 to 0.

that would be a tradeoff, reliable but less powerfull on its maximum effect. recharging a full category from just what you have slotted, i have to aggree with babazook would be too strong and very low chance that we will get that.

 

there are a few rng effects in the game, i dont really like rng but it can be oke with smaller effects like crits have a 33% chance to apply 1 stack vuln or depending on trigger.

so improvisation IMO adds too much rng to a fight so that a fight with a thief using it can even be flipped just by luck. same with durability runes, their protection proc is pretty strong for a random proc. it would be better on 100% chance or if the effect would apply after the trigger but the way it is, it actually can change the outcome of a fight with just rng. but most other rng effects in the game are of rather minimal effect.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > Improv takes the enitre pool of skills and refreshes ONE of those even if you do not have it traited. Otherwise it would be too powerful as one could trait all tricks as example and get all to recharge.

>

> but it should be working like that i mean why would i want to get recharged venom if i dont use it... They should either improve the cd or do something about it or it is inefficient

 

It's always worked this way.

 

Consider running solely the strongest of the trick and deception skill types. You'd have nearly-endless resources if it operated as it does now but with consistency.

 

It rewards skill diversity and forces you and your opponent to improvise, per the trait's name.

 

I dislike the design of the RNG and I think it makes thief utils hard to balance (do we balance around the skill base cooldowns or with Improv/how does this affect the use-cases of utility activation after the use of steal?), but it'd need to be changed fundamentally to be even remotely fair if it was made consistent as it currently operates.

[Platanos.8107]

Maybe for the next iteration of Improvisation:

Replace a random skill from your skill bar (utility. heal, or elite) with another random skill :P

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> So basically Improvisations definition : "You can use stolen skills twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal."

> It has 20 sec CD

> the problem is the one random skill category is immediately recharged part doesnt work. At least not always after 20 sec CD is gone. I was testing it today in WvW and the skill would be recharged only like 2/5 times each time i stopped 20 sec, I know it becasuse I have 20 sec CD on a Steal itself = each steal should applicate Improvisation by what the skill says right. But as i said it doesnt do it always. If anyone has more insight into this i would appreciate

 

You just had a bad luck, it happens. However, when luck is in your favor, you can have 9 Thieves from Thieve's Guild at a time.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Platanos.8107" said:

> Maybe for the next iteration of Improvisation:

> Replace a random skill from your skill bar (utility. heal, or elite) with another random skill :P

 

-HAHHAHAHAAH nice one you made my morning. Improvisation indeed xD rofl

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > So basically Improvisations definition : "You can use stolen skills twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal."

> > It has 20 sec CD

> > the problem is the one random skill category is immediately recharged part doesnt work. At least not always after 20 sec CD is gone. I was testing it today in WvW and the skill would be recharged only like 2/5 times each time i stopped 20 sec, I know it becasuse I have 20 sec CD on a Steal itself = each steal should applicate Improvisation by what the skill says right. But as i said it doesnt do it always. If anyone has more insight into this i would appreciate

>

> You just had a bad luck, it happens. However, when luck is in your favor, you can have 9 Thieves from Thieve's Guild at a time.

 

yes that is my point. I already saw you can have 6 of them because you would ujse G steal and then get TG refreshed lol i was so laughing at that. I would love to see more of that. Although my main point isnt TG also having traps or opisons refreshed faster would be nice. It could actually make it to Meta if it worked porperlly

[InsaneQR.7412]

Does this trait randomly refresh a skill or does it refresh only skill types you have equipped?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> Does this trait randomly refresh a skill or does it refresh only skill types you have equipped?

 

randomly refreshes all skills of one skill type, no matter if you have it equipped or not.

[polvere.2805]

If i remember correctly sindrener explained it in one of his streams. Improv recharge one random skill category, and if you don't have that skill category in your bar or it's simply off CD then 0 value out of improv beside the double stolen item (steal on a mesmer and VALUEVALUEVALUEVALUE).

 

It's basically a trait used to complement the all in +1 playstyle of thief. Also it gives you the vibe of an always evolving situation, and you can juggle your combos on the spot trough improv. It's quite a good trait and in the same tier executioner is not really worth it (in pvp). Your spike in d/p is high enough to finish off low hp target even without it

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > Does this trait randomly refresh a skill or does it refresh only skill types you have equipped?

>

> randomly refreshes all skills of one skill type, no matter if you have it equipped or not.

 

Thats sad. Would be better otherwise.

Ofc it wouldnt be that improvised.

They could just rename it and make it work like that and it would be fantastic for venom PvE builds or trick heavy PvP builds.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > Does this trait randomly refresh a skill or does it refresh only skill types you have equipped?

> >

> > randomly refreshes all skills of one skill type, no matter if you have it equipped or not.

>

> Thats sad. Would be better otherwise.

> Ofc it wouldnt be that improvised.

> They could just rename it and make it work like that and it would be fantastic for venom PvE builds or trick heavy PvP builds.

 

it allways has to be in balance. if you want it to be more reliable then you have to reduce the maximum effect. for a 100% reliable skill reset i would say it would be balanced if only 1 of those sees a reset. therefor not a reset for one skill type but for one skill slot.

or keep it like now.. we have a potentially very strong effect as it could reset 5 skills if you take all tricks , poison , deceptions, cantrips or physical skills. but as a tradeoff its unreliable.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

 

 

I'd say we could have it like 80% chance of refreshing one random skill you have equiped (not counting elite) + (lets say) 50% from Elite skill cd

we would still have 20% chance it does nothing = improvisation failed

+ we also just might have had refreshed healing skill which might be either nice or useless

and if it would work we can get the above mentioned for a good skill we might use in combat

+ and we would keep that double stolen item

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > > Does this trait randomly refresh a skill or does it refresh only skill types you have equipped?

> > >

> > > randomly refreshes all skills of one skill type, no matter if you have it equipped or not.

> >

> > Thats sad. Would be better otherwise.

> > Ofc it wouldnt be that improvised.

> > They could just rename it and make it work like that and it would be fantastic for venom PvE builds or trick heavy PvP builds.

>

> it allways has to be in balance. if you want it to be more reliable then you have to reduce the maximum effect. for a 100% reliable skill reset i would say it would be balanced if only 1 of those sees a reset. therefor not a reset for one skill type but for one skill slot.

> or keep it like now.. we have a potentially very strong effect as it could reset 5 skills if you take all tricks , poison , deceptions, cantrips or physical skills. but as a tradeoff its unreliable.

 

Yeah one skillslot would be better and reliable and it would keep the improvisation aspect. Maybe the double stealskill could be removed if it would be to powerful but 1 skill recharge after steal sounds good to me and is better than this rng.

[babazhook.6805]

Double steal removed would make it weaker. The random recharge is the an unexpected bonus. The double steal is the reason to use it.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > So basically Improvisations definition : "You can use stolen skills twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal."

> > > It has 20 sec CD

> > > the problem is the one random skill category is immediately recharged part doesnt work. At least not always after 20 sec CD is gone. I was testing it today in WvW and the skill would be recharged only like 2/5 times each time i stopped 20 sec, I know it becasuse I have 20 sec CD on a Steal itself = each steal should applicate Improvisation by what the skill says right. But as i said it doesnt do it always. If anyone has more insight into this i would appreciate

> >

> > You just had a bad luck, it happens. However, when luck is in your favor, you can have 9 Thieves from Thieve's Guild at a time.

>

> yes that is my point. I already saw you can have 6 of them because you would ujse G steal and then get TG refreshed lol i was so laughing at that. I would love to see more of that. Although my main point isnt TG also having traps or opisons refreshed faster would be nice. It could actually make it to Meta if it worked porperlly

 

It is working properly. It's a classic Thief's Dice Roll of a 6 sided dice. It's all about luck. Not triggering the refresh doesn't necessarily means bad luck since there are no negative consequences, just benefits.

[dDuff.3860]

I think that cd on improv is for skill category, because I'm using it with some kind of steal recharge deadeye build with mercy, and improvisation can proc several times in a short sequence.

[MechVampyre.2903]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> Double steal removed would make it weaker. The random recharge is the an unexpected bonus. The double steal is the reason to use it.

>

yep, i see it like you.

 

don't see why improv would need a change.

for pve, i guess, you want to go executioner for the damage modifier.

but in the pvp modes you want improv over executioner for the utility of the double stolen items.

you don't choose improv to just count on a lucky recharge. that is just a nice to have add-on.

 

 

[Cobrakon.3108]

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > So basically Improvisations definition : "You can use stolen skills twice. One random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal."

> > It has 20 sec CD

> > the problem is the one random skill category is immediately recharged part doesnt work. At least not always after 20 sec CD is gone. I was testing it today in WvW and the skill would be recharged only like 2/5 times each time i stopped 20 sec, I know it becasuse I have 20 sec CD on a Steal itself = each steal should applicate Improvisation by what the skill says right. But as i said it doesnt do it always. If anyone has more insight into this i would appreciate

>

> This is purely supposition, but it may be that one random skill category is recharged, regardless of wether you equiped it or not. So for example if you have no tricks equiped, it might still be that category that gets recharged, effectively recharging none of your equiped skills.

>

> My personnal opinion is that all traits or skills based on pure luck are complete garbage, and I feel like that one in particular takes this to an even higher level. I don't mean to offend the devs who worked on it, the idea is fun on paper, but becomes frustrating and impractical in practice.

>

> **Edit:** A quick look at the wiki page seems to confirm what I beleive:

> _"Randomly selects one of the 5–6 skill types (venoms, signets, traps, tricks, deception, and Daredevil physical or Deadeye cantrips) to recharge, so **it will not necessarily choose a skill type that you are using**."_

> Funny thing, using an elite specialisation effectively weakens that trait, because it increases its randomness, by making it pick 1 out of 6 skill types, instead of 1 out of the 5 core types. In others words, by using an elite spec, you are even less likely to get a recharge on the type of skills you're using.

 

IMO, to make improv more consistent it should refresh one of your 5 utility slots instead of utility types. That way you always get one and adjust according based on what you get back, still holding true to the name the skill implies while ridding some of the rng elements to it. This would make thief more interesting and versatile as compared to the current way.

 

Also I believe the cool down needs to be adjusted to suit minimum steal cooldown builds that way it hits every time with the exception of sword and mark refresh recoups. so i think like 17 ish secs? as oppsosed to what it is now. This has the potential to really help with build diversity, but anet might not want that sooo.... it may still end up being useless