Why were Engineer turrets nerfed? Was it really necessary?

[Rise.8259]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> I would consider them being non passive game play if could at least control what they are targeting. Dropping a thumper turret in water field and double blasting while getting CC is non passive. I can’t even tell when it’s next attack is going to happen when I leave it out, I have no way to monitor that.

 

As I already outlined, whether or not something is a passive playstyle has nothing to do with whether or not it's auto targeted. There's a lot more about the playstyle that is active for it to ever be called a passive playstyle. People mistakely equate any level of automation with passivity - but that is never the case when automation requires your active involvement to be effective. The engineer turret playstyle is only partially automated, and even what is automated won't win on it's own in PvP unless you can pair it with other activity.

 

Being able to target them would actually make them more powerful in skilled hands in situations that have more than one target because you could concentrate DPS on the most vulnerable and valuable target every time. Overwhelming the turrets with targets like necro minions or having a strong player tank them by taking aggro first are both ways to abuse the auto targeting to nullify their effectiveness. Which I am all for, because it makes turrets have unique disadvantages to go along with their unique advantages. It is an advantage to have them automated to an extent, allowing you to focus on all the other complex things engineers have to do, but it's also a disadvantage if the enemy knows how to take advantage of it.

The problem with turrets now is that their disadvantages are too numerous and their advantages too small.

 

 

[Peutrifectus.4830]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

>

>

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > Turrets we're immune to crits and conditions. Plus a trait which Essentially gave turrets permanent protection.

> >

> > The current balance isn't fair for turrets because they're immobile and can't be cleansed or healed, unlike minions, spirits, or pets. Maybe if they reworked toolkit so that it removed conditions from turrets on the final auto attack chain when repairing turrets.

>

> Well, they should just return turrets to not taking crits or conditions to be consistent with their world design - because all mechanical devices in PvE are immune to crit and conditions. It's what makes them different from minions.

>

> Like you said, minions compensate for this by being able to be cleansed and healed.

> And minions aren't immobile, but all mechanical device enemies are immobile.

>

 

100% agreed. It certainly won't be game breaking but its a good place to start and it makes perfect sense.

[derd.6413]

> @"Peutrifectus.4830" said:

> > @"Rise.8259" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > Turrets we're immune to crits and conditions. Plus a trait which Essentially gave turrets permanent protection.

> > >

> > > The current balance isn't fair for turrets because they're immobile and can't be cleansed or healed, unlike minions, spirits, or pets. Maybe if they reworked toolkit so that it removed conditions from turrets on the final auto attack chain when repairing turrets.

> >

> > Well, they should just return turrets to not taking crits or conditions to be consistent with their world design - because all mechanical devices in PvE are immune to crit and conditions. It's what makes them different from minions.

> >

> > Like you said, minions compensate for this by being able to be cleansed and healed.

> > And minions aren't immobile, but all mechanical device enemies are immobile.

> >

>

> 100% agreed. It certainly won't be game breaking but its a good place to start and it makes perfect sense.

 

> @"Rise.8259" said:

>

>

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > Turrets we're immune to crits and conditions. Plus a trait which Essentially gave turrets permanent protection.

> >

> > The current balance isn't fair for turrets because they're immobile and can't be cleansed or healed, unlike minions, spirits, or pets. Maybe if they reworked toolkit so that it removed conditions from turrets on the final auto attack chain when repairing turrets.

>

> Well, they should just return turrets to not taking crits or conditions to be consistent with their world design - because all mechanical devices in PvE are immune to crit and conditions. It's what makes them different from minions.

>

> Like you said, minions compensate for this by being able to be cleansed and healed.

> And minions aren't immobile, but all mechanical device enemies are immobile.

>

 

no, arbitrarily saying certain mechanics don't affect something because they're bad is terrible design. if it's such a big problem then just allow heals and cleanses to affect turrets instead of giving them immunities

[Peutrifectus.4830]

But that make 0% sense thematically. Aligning them with other stationary structures does.

[derd.6413]

> @"Peutrifectus.4830" said:

> But that make 0% sense thematically. Aligning them with other stationary structures does.

 

mechanics always take precedence over themes. and if theme is that important they could just buff the snot out of toolkit

[Arimas.3492]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Peutrifectus.4830" said:

> > But that make 0% sense thematically. Aligning them with other stationary structures does.

>

> mechanics always take precedence over themes. and if theme is that important they could just buff the snot out of toolkit

 

I think turrets being able to take condi damage and criticals is fine, but they need to be buffed to compensate, instead they kept getting nerfed and nerfed. Bring back auto heal, scale damage to player stats and buff the health pool a bit more is what they need unless we're going full rework.

[Euthymias.7984]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Turrets have been nerfed for 1 reason alone, the average players in PvP are too inept to learn from mistakes and change their tactics and instead decided to whine until turrets were essentially removed from play.

That seems to be a recurring thing regarding PvP nerfs.

If the "average player" cries enough about something, it gets trashed repeatedly until its not viable anymore.

 

[Rise.8259]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Peutrifectus.4830" said:

> > > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > Turrets we're immune to crits and conditions. Plus a trait which Essentially gave turrets permanent protection.

> > > >

> > > > The current balance isn't fair for turrets because they're immobile and can't be cleansed or healed, unlike minions, spirits, or pets. Maybe if they reworked toolkit so that it removed conditions from turrets on the final auto attack chain when repairing turrets.

> > >

> > > Well, they should just return turrets to not taking crits or conditions to be consistent with their world design - because all mechanical devices in PvE are immune to crit and conditions. It's what makes them different from minions.

> > >

> > > Like you said, minions compensate for this by being able to be cleansed and healed.

> > > And minions aren't immobile, but all mechanical device enemies are immobile.

> > >

> >

> > 100% agreed. It certainly won't be game breaking but its a good place to start and it makes perfect sense.

>

> > @"Rise.8259" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > Turrets we're immune to crits and conditions. Plus a trait which Essentially gave turrets permanent protection.

> > >

> > > The current balance isn't fair for turrets because they're immobile and can't be cleansed or healed, unlike minions, spirits, or pets. Maybe if they reworked toolkit so that it removed conditions from turrets on the final auto attack chain when repairing turrets.

> >

> > Well, they should just return turrets to not taking crits or conditions to be consistent with their world design - because all mechanical devices in PvE are immune to crit and conditions. It's what makes them different from minions.

> >

> > Like you said, minions compensate for this by being able to be cleansed and healed.

> > And minions aren't immobile, but all mechanical device enemies are immobile.

> >

>

> no, arbitrarily saying certain mechanics don't affect something because they're bad is terrible design. if it's such a big problem then just allow heals and cleanses to affect turrets instead of giving them immunities

 

You've got it backwards. It is arbitrary to decide that static mechanical devices like turrets should take damage from conditions and crits when game has already established as part of it's consistent design that static mechanical devices (like NPC enemy turrets) do not take damage from those sources. Which makes sense because a machine can't bleed, can't get poisoned, and a chunk of metal doesn't actually burn.

 

It is the epitomy of arbitrary to up and decide one day that one particular type of static mechanical enemies should take condition damage, for no logical reason, while all the others remain unchanged.

 

Unless you are going to change all static mechanical devices in PvE take condition and critical damage, you have no business making turrets take that kind of damage as some kind of arbitrary exception to the established design rule.

 

Furthermore, because the game was originally designed for mechnical devices to operate this way, there are unintended consequences for instituting arbitrary half changes - you end up wit mechanical devices being even weaker than minions because they can't be healed or cleansed.

[Sephylon.4938]

There was the semi afk lake doric farm that alot of people were doing that had a hand in turet's nerfing.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Peutrifectus.4830" said:

> But that make 0% sense thematically. Aligning them with other stationary structures does.

Structures take condition damage now, starting from HoT on (thank god, too, destroying them with condition builds was a slog). Anet was just too lazy to go back and adjust central Tyria accordingly.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > @"Peutrifectus.4830" said:

> > > > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > > Turrets we're immune to crits and conditions. Plus a trait which Essentially gave turrets permanent protection.

> > > > >

> > > > > The current balance isn't fair for turrets because they're immobile and can't be cleansed or healed, unlike minions, spirits, or pets. Maybe if they reworked toolkit so that it removed conditions from turrets on the final auto attack chain when repairing turrets.

> > > >

> > > > Well, they should just return turrets to not taking crits or conditions to be consistent with their world design - because all mechanical devices in PvE are immune to crit and conditions. It's what makes them different from minions.

> > > >

> > > > Like you said, minions compensate for this by being able to be cleansed and healed.

> > > > And minions aren't immobile, but all mechanical device enemies are immobile.

> > > >

> > >

> > > 100% agreed. It certainly won't be game breaking but its a good place to start and it makes perfect sense.

> >

> > > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > Turrets we're immune to crits and conditions. Plus a trait which Essentially gave turrets permanent protection.

> > > >

> > > > The current balance isn't fair for turrets because they're immobile and can't be cleansed or healed, unlike minions, spirits, or pets. Maybe if they reworked toolkit so that it removed conditions from turrets on the final auto attack chain when repairing turrets.

> > >

> > > Well, they should just return turrets to not taking crits or conditions to be consistent with their world design - because all mechanical devices in PvE are immune to crit and conditions. It's what makes them different from minions.

> > >

> > > Like you said, minions compensate for this by being able to be cleansed and healed.

> > > And minions aren't immobile, but all mechanical device enemies are immobile.

> > >

> >

> > no, arbitrarily saying certain mechanics don't affect something because they're bad is terrible design. if it's such a big problem then just allow heals and cleanses to affect turrets instead of giving them immunities

>

> You've got it backwards. It is arbitrary to decide that static mechanical devices like turrets should take damage from conditions and crits when game has already established as part of it's consistent design that static mechanical devices (like NPC enemy turrets) do not take damage from those sources. Which makes sense because a machine can't bleed, can't get poisoned, and a chunk of metal doesn't actually burn.

>

> It is the epitomy of arbitrary to up and decide one day that one particular type of static mechanical enemies should take condition damage, for no logical reason, while all the others remain unchanged.

>

> Unless you are going to change all static mechanical devices in PvE take condition and critical damage, you have no business making turrets take that kind of damage as some kind of arbitrary exception to the established design rule.

>

> Furthermore, because the game was originally designed for mechnical devices to operate this way, there are unintended consequences for instituting arbitrary half changes - you end up wit mechanical devices being even weaker than minions because they can't be healed or cleansed.

 

I think what you're referring to is the "Fleshy" mechanic they introduced with eye of the north.

[Rezzet.3614]

Heck even the original un nerfed turrets werent overpowered to begin with , the only reason they were deemed OP was because of 2 factors Bunker engi and players running Rabid gear condi meta was starting back then and Rabid was popular cuz armor crit for all the crit proc traits and condi damage , and turrets were imune to condi so it hard countered rabid , other than that even Cleric warriors destroyed turrets in 2 seconds , so turrets were gutted to hell excessively from the very start.

[Ouija.1684]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > I like it better this way, it makes them more disposable, so I can detonate them for their blast finishers without feeling like I'm wasting a cooldown.

>

> You don't sound like someone who is using an actual turret centric build, as I am (in both PvE and PvP), but rather someone who just mixes in a turret occassionally and therefore doesn't really care much if it's up or not.

 

I’m a new holosmith currently using 3 turrets in my solo pve build. I’m curious about yours — traits, skills, gear, runes, sigils, etc. — would you mind linking it?

 

 

[Rise.8259]

> @"Ouija.1684" said:

> > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > I like it better this way, it makes them more disposable, so I can detonate them for their blast finishers without feeling like I'm wasting a cooldown.

> >

> > You don't sound like someone who is using an actual turret centric build, as I am (in both PvE and PvP), but rather someone who just mixes in a turret occassionally and therefore doesn't really care much if it's up or not.

>

> I’m a new holosmith currently using 3 turrets in my solo pve build. I’m curious about yours — traits, skills, gear, runes, sigils, etc. — would you mind linking it?

>

>

 

I'm still experimenting with specifics, but generally for 5vs5 what I'm using is based on inventions with the turret boon and shield skills, and all 5 turret skills with pistol and shield.

It's more of a team buff/heal point controller. I have had the most success when I focus on durability, healing power, and added boon duration for the turret.

 

Going for more DPS related builds doesn't do any good if you're being killed while your turrets are still up. Your goal is to force the enemy to want to kill the turrets before they try to kill you, because attacking you directly is too difficult and time consuming. I also find that healing power does more to keep me up than toughness/vitality alone do.

 

I go scrapper for the shielding.

 

It's the third one I have experimented more with. I tend to prefer firearms so that I am more of an offensive threat, so they can't just completely ignore me and take down my turrets.

 

My success with this build has been average. It's fun, but I can't say it's that effective. Especially if the enemy team is smart enough to take out the turrets first.

 

I also do more raw DPS in PvE with a bomb/grenade/mortar spamming build. The turret build is more of a support build in PvE groups, imparting boons, cleansing conditions, and healing/protecting. In which case I might try swapping out firearms for alchemy.

But I question it's usefulness as a build in PvE. I often don't feel as impactful as compared with a bomb build.

 

[Ouija.1684]

>@"Rise.8259" said:

 

> I'm still experimenting with specifics, but generally for 5vs5 what I'm using is based on inventions with the turret boon and shield skills, and all 5 turret skills with pistol and shield.

> It's more of a team buff/heal point controller. I have had the most success when I focus on durability, healing power, and added boon duration for the turret.

 

I also went with inventions for the turret boon and shield skills. I think they’re super useful for soloing, and yet none of the guides I looked up, or even just individual people talking about various builds — including solo pve — ever mentioned them.

 

[otto.5684]

Considering the amount of AOE damage and CC currently in the game, does it really matter? A guardian or necro will will instantly destroy them.

 

I main guardian, and no joke, I can pump 12-15k aoe damage in 2-3 secs.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Wasnt necessary, the state they are in would make any competent developer fire whoever is in charge of how they are designed now. Hate to sound harsh. But this class has slowly caved in on itself and received nothing but the most shittiest updates in the past few years. Its a complete shame that such a cool idea suffers from lack of love and educated design choices. This is for the class as a whole. Turret is just what I always look at and get annoyed at the state it has been left in for so long.

 

This isnt counting power creep holosmith. =/

[archmagus.7249]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Considering the amount of AOE damage and CC currently in the game, does it really matter? A guardian or necro will will instantly destroy them.

>

> I main guardian, and no joke, I can pump 12-15k aoe damage in 2-3 secs.

 

Direct damage and Condi damage on minions and followers is reduced by 90% when you're not directly targeting them. Placing an AOE in the middle of a supply crate drop without directly targeting a turret isn't going to be very effective.

[otto.5684]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Considering the amount of AOE damage and CC currently in the game, does it really matter? A guardian or necro will will instantly destroy them.

> >

> > I main guardian, and no joke, I can pump 12-15k aoe damage in 2-3 secs.

>

> Direct damage and Condi damage on minions and followers is reduced by 90% when you're not directly targeting them. Placing an AOE in the middle of a supply crate drop without directly targeting a turret isn't going to be very effective.

 

Maybe I do not remember the good old days, but that was introduced to the game in 2015 and only in PvE.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > Considering the amount of AOE damage and CC currently in the game, does it really matter? A guardian or necro will will instantly destroy them.

> > >

> > > I main guardian, and no joke, I can pump 12-15k aoe damage in 2-3 secs.

> >

> > Direct damage and Condi damage on minions and followers is reduced by 90% when you're not directly targeting them. Placing an AOE in the middle of a supply crate drop without directly targeting a turret isn't going to be very effective.

>

> Maybe I do not remember the good old days, but that was introduced to the game in 2015 and only in PvE.

 

I think it was mostly a pve thing. Necros would summon minions and they'd go and attack a boss and get cleaved instantly. But for the sake of not causing an uproar, they made it game-wide.

[Valfaros.6908]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> You've got it backwards. It is arbitrary to decide that static mechanical devices like turrets should take damage from conditions and crits when game has already established as part of it's consistent design that static mechanical devices (like NPC enemy turrets) do not take damage from those sources. Which makes sense because a machine can't bleed, can't get poisoned, and a chunk of metal doesn't actually burn.

>

> It is the epitomy of arbitrary to up and decide one day that one particular type of static mechanical enemies should take condition damage, for no logical reason, while all the others remain unchanged.

>

> Unless you are going to change all static mechanical devices in PvE take condition and critical damage, you have no business making turrets take that kind of damage as some kind of arbitrary exception to the established design rule.

>

> Furthermore, because the game was originally designed for mechnical devices to operate this way, there are unintended consequences for instituting arbitrary half changes - you end up wit mechanical devices being even weaker than minions because they can't be healed or cleansed.

 

Okay I agree on buffing turrets again however not by making them immune to crits and condis again. Newer additions on those things do take crits and they do take conditions they just didn't get around in adjusting all the old stuff and essentially it's not needed for them. They are mostly seen in aspects of the game where it doesn't really matter. You will never see a new static mechanical device introduced now that is immune to conditions. It was from the start a terrible design choice. If you were playing conditions it basically ment "no you can't kill turrets" a horrible idea which got rightfully changed. Think about a introduction of a new elite spec impossible to get damaged by power dmg that's just plain bad design and should never come back.

 

+Machines can bleed (leaks), burn, poisoned (for example if you add some water in it's fuel) and confused (program errors) and all of them can lead to the death of said machine so I really see no problem there. I don't know who came up with the idea that the turrets are just a pile of metal junk. Okay they look a bit like that but don't judge a book by it's cover. Think about a machine nowadayes which would be capable to target and fire/reload automatically I don't think a rifle taped to a piece of junk is going to work.

 

Further in order to be viable in my eyes they should remove the passive factor of the playstyle and then buff accordingly (dmg/utility). I never had a problem with this build but they were (like many bunkers) very boring to fight and in most cases were just ignored focusing on the other two points, 5v4 ing them. Then only having to focus on surviving (in most cases) while the turrets do the kill is passive in my eyes especially if you can't even tell them what they are doing (target and overcharge). I do like the new introduction of them and I think with some adjustments it could work.

The new introduction disfavors the sitting duck playstyle which I think is a good thing. I hated turret engineers but mostly when they were in my team since it forced the whole team to play quite static removing most possiblilitys to outrotate the enemy.

In my eyes a possible rework could be a limited turret duration + an ammunition system making it actually active. I think the turrets should only last for 10-40 seconds where they do its overcharge and then detonate. However you get 2-3 charges to activly use and pressure a point with them. You can still focus on survival while they do the kill but you are a lot more mobile and have to activly put them down and watch out to have enough charges ready/not waste them when enemys dissengage. The problem I have with this idea myself would be the active part of detonating them therefore I would change the "pick up f skill" option with a "detonate f skill" option.

What would you think about that?

[derd.6413]

> @"Valfaros.6908" said:

>

> > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > You've got it backwards. It is arbitrary to decide that static mechanical devices like turrets should take damage from conditions and crits when game has already established as part of it's consistent design that static mechanical devices (like NPC enemy turrets) do not take damage from those sources. Which makes sense because a machine can't bleed, can't get poisoned, and a chunk of metal doesn't actually burn.

> >

> > It is the epitomy of arbitrary to up and decide one day that one particular type of static mechanical enemies should take condition damage, for no logical reason, while all the others remain unchanged.

> >

> > Unless you are going to change all static mechanical devices in PvE take condition and critical damage, you have no business making turrets take that kind of damage as some kind of arbitrary exception to the established design rule.

> >

> > Furthermore, because the game was originally designed for mechnical devices to operate this way, there are unintended consequences for instituting arbitrary half changes - you end up wit mechanical devices being even weaker than minions because they can't be healed or cleansed.

>

> Okay I agree on buffing turrets again however not by making them immune to crits and condis again. Newer additions on those things do take crits and they do take conditions they just didn't get around in adjusting all the old stuff and essentially it's not needed for them. They are mostly seen in aspects of the game where it doesn't really matter. You will never see a new static mechanical device introduced now that is immune to conditions. It was from the start a terrible design choice. If you were playing conditions it basically ment "no you can't kill turrets" a horrible idea which got rightfully changed. Think about a introduction of a new elite spec impossible to get damaged by power dmg that's just plain bad design and should never come back.

>

> +Machines can bleed (leaks), burn, poisoned (for example if you add some water in it's fuel) and confused (program errors) and all of them can lead to the death of said machine so I really see no problem there. I don't know who came up with the idea that the turrets are just a pile of metal junk. Okay they look a bit like that but don't judge a book by it's cover. Think about a machine nowadayes which would be capable to target and fire/reload automatically I don't think a rifle taped to a piece of junk is going to work.

>

> Further in order to be viable in my eyes they should remove the passive factor of the playstyle and then buff accordingly (dmg/utility). I never had a problem with this build but they were (like many bunkers) very boring to fight and in most cases were just ignored focusing on the other two points, 5v4 ing them. Then only having to focus on surviving (in most cases) while the turrets do the kill is passive in my eyes especially if you can't even tell them what they are doing (target and overcharge). I do like the new introduction of them and I think with some adjustments it could work.

> The new introduction disfavors the sitting duck playstyle which I think is a good thing. I hated turret engineers but mostly when they were in my team since it forced the whole team to play quite static removing most possiblilitys to outrotate the enemy.

> In my eyes a possible rework could be a limited turret duration + an ammunition system making it actually active. I think the turrets I should only last for 10-40 seconds where they do its overcharge and then detonate. However you get 2-3 charges to activly use and pressure a point with them. You can still focus on survival while they do the kill but you are a lot more mobile and have to activly put them down and watch out to have enough charges ready/not waste them when enemys dissengage. The problem I have with this idea myself would be the active part of detonating them therefore I would change the "pick up f skill" option with a "detonate f skill" option.

> What would you think about that?

 

just spitballing here.

i personally wonder if they could give tool kit more/better interactions with turrets. like: hit turret with pry bar to overcharge it, use gear shield near turret to activate dome, magnet to pick up turret from a distance.

also maybe have it so turrets got picked up have no cooldown but their health doesn't reset and don't overcharge when placed down.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Valfaros.6908" said:

> >

> > > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > You've got it backwards. It is arbitrary to decide that static mechanical devices like turrets should take damage from conditions and crits when game has already established as part of it's consistent design that static mechanical devices (like NPC enemy turrets) do not take damage from those sources. Which makes sense because a machine can't bleed, can't get poisoned, and a chunk of metal doesn't actually burn.

> > >

> > > It is the epitomy of arbitrary to up and decide one day that one particular type of static mechanical enemies should take condition damage, for no logical reason, while all the others remain unchanged.

> > >

> > > Unless you are going to change all static mechanical devices in PvE take condition and critical damage, you have no business making turrets take that kind of damage as some kind of arbitrary exception to the established design rule.

> > >

> > > Furthermore, because the game was originally designed for mechnical devices to operate this way, there are unintended consequences for instituting arbitrary half changes - you end up wit mechanical devices being even weaker than minions because they can't be healed or cleansed.

> >

> > Okay I agree on buffing turrets again however not by making them immune to crits and condis again. Newer additions on those things do take crits and they do take conditions they just didn't get around in adjusting all the old stuff and essentially it's not needed for them. They are mostly seen in aspects of the game where it doesn't really matter. You will never see a new static mechanical device introduced now that is immune to conditions. It was from the start a terrible design choice. If you were playing conditions it basically ment "no you can't kill turrets" a horrible idea which got rightfully changed. Think about a introduction of a new elite spec impossible to get damaged by power dmg that's just plain bad design and should never come back.

> >

> > +Machines can bleed (leaks), burn, poisoned (for example if you add some water in it's fuel) and confused (program errors) and all of them can lead to the death of said machine so I really see no problem there. I don't know who came up with the idea that the turrets are just a pile of metal junk. Okay they look a bit like that but don't judge a book by it's cover. Think about a machine nowadayes which would be capable to target and fire/reload automatically I don't think a rifle taped to a piece of junk is going to work.

> >

> > Further in order to be viable in my eyes they should remove the passive factor of the playstyle and then buff accordingly (dmg/utility). I never had a problem with this build but they were (like many bunkers) very boring to fight and in most cases were just ignored focusing on the other two points, 5v4 ing them. Then only having to focus on surviving (in most cases) while the turrets do the kill is passive in my eyes especially if you can't even tell them what they are doing (target and overcharge). I do like the new introduction of them and I think with some adjustments it could work.

> > The new introduction disfavors the sitting duck playstyle which I think is a good thing. I hated turret engineers but mostly when they were in my team since it forced the whole team to play quite static removing most possiblilitys to outrotate the enemy.

> > In my eyes a possible rework could be a limited turret duration + an ammunition system making it actually active. I think the turrets I should only last for 10-40 seconds where they do its overcharge and then detonate. However you get 2-3 charges to activly use and pressure a point with them. You can still focus on survival while they do the kill but you are a lot more mobile and have to activly put them down and watch out to have enough charges ready/not waste them when enemys dissengage. The problem I have with this idea myself would be the active part of detonating them therefore I would change the "pick up f skill" option with a "detonate f skill" option.

> > What would you think about that?

>

> just spitballing here.

> i personally wonder if they could give tool kit more/better interactions with turrets. like: hit turret with pry bar to overcharge it, use gear shield near turret to activate dome, magnet to pick up turret from a distance.

> also maybe have it so turrets got picked up have no cooldown but their health doesn't reset and don't overcharge when placed down.

 

Good spit balling tbf

[Aigleborgne.2981]

Even in pve, it was important to use overcharge when needed.

It was in 2012 for me, but overcharging any turret beside riffle must be done when necessary. And you could eventually target enemy with overcharge, not sure.

 

I really liked turrets at that time, even if it wasn't very effective. Placing and overcharging turrets was fun.

Now what ? Just boring.

You are almost forced to place them and remove them after overcharge. Clever change !

[Iozeph.5617]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"Ouija.1684" said:

> > > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > > I like it better this way, it makes them more disposable, so I can detonate them for their blast finishers without feeling like I'm wasting a cooldown.

> > >

> > > You don't sound like someone who is using an actual turret centric build, as I am (in both PvE and PvP), but rather someone who just mixes in a turret occassionally and therefore doesn't really care much if it's up or not.

> >

> > I’m a new holosmith currently using 3 turrets in my solo pve build. I’m curious about yours — traits, skills, gear, runes, sigils, etc. — would you mind linking it?

> >

> >

>

> I'm still experimenting with specifics, but generally for 5vs5 what I'm using is based on inventions with the turret boon and shield skills, and all 5 turret skills with pistol and shield.

> It's more of a team buff/heal point controller. I have had the most success when I focus on durability, healing power, and added boon duration for the turret.

>

> Going for more DPS related builds doesn't do any good if you're being killed while your turrets are still up. Your goal is to force the enemy to want to kill the turrets before they try to kill you, because attacking you directly is too difficult and time consuming. I also find that healing power does more to keep me up than toughness/vitality alone do.

>

> I go scrapper for the shielding.

>

> It's the third one I have experimented more with. I tend to prefer firearms so that I am more of an offensive threat, so they can't just completely ignore me and take down my turrets.

>

> My success with this build has been average. It's fun, but I can't say it's that effective. Especially if the enemy team is smart enough to take out the turrets first.

>

> I also do more raw DPS in PvE with a bomb/grenade/mortar spamming build. The turret build is more of a support build in PvE groups, imparting boons, cleansing conditions, and healing/protecting. In which case I might try swapping out firearms for alchemy.

> But I question it's usefulness as a build in PvE. I often don't feel as impactful as compared with a bomb build.

>

 

If you're going Scrapper, try Inventions and Alchemy.

 

Inv- Over Shield, Experimental Turrets, Anti-corrosion Plating.

Alch- Health Insurance, Comeback Cure, Purity of Purpose

Scr- Recovery Matrix, Mass Momentum, Final Salvo

 

Sub out one of your turrets for Bulwark Gyro. In addition to the short term defence boost from the gyro your team also gets the benefit from the belt skill Defence Field -which will protect them and the gyro from several ranged attacks as well as providing stability. You'll also have added stability from deploying the Bulwark Gyro thanks to Final Salvo.

 

If using pistol and shield, you're going to have an obscene amount of condition clearing available to you and your team via multiple sources of Protection.

 

Consider subbing out Healing Turret for Med Kit. Turn off auto targeting. Med blaster will push out a lot of healing on anything in front of you andhaving auto targeting off will allow you to sweep it through your party members. The belt skill from Med Kit will still trigger Recovery Matrix. In addition you get Cleansing Field which helps if defending a static point, because in addition to cleansing conditions it's also easily blastable for area healing with either the belt skill from Thumper Turret or from the shield skill Magnetic Inversion and slightly less easily blasted if used quickly on top of a deployed Infusion Bomb. Vital Burst is a bonus.

 

All that said- as others have mentioned, there's still a ton of AoE and cleave skills to contend with. Don't let it stop you though. You still might surprise a few players not expecting to see such a build out there still.