ZDragon.3046 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > The real issue isn't that the necromancer seem to not have support, the real issue is what ANet envision as the necromancer's support. > - Boon corruption > - Condition draw/transfert > - Barrier > - soft conditions (vulnerability, weakness... etc.) > - Condition to boon conversion > - Revive ability > > From a PvE point of view, the necromancer's support is terrible and inadapted. From a PvP/WvW point of view this support can easily seen as OP. There is no middle point for those tools since they benefit a lot more from PvP/WvW environment than they do from PvE environment. Even pushing PvE environment closer to what PvP/WvW is, is, in the end, unrealistic. > > From necromancer's design point of view, staff is a good support weapon, dagger off-hand as well and scourge is a masterpiece of support. From a PvE player point of view, all of this is crap. So, there will still be endless complains about necromancer lacking meaningfull support and ANet will still bang their head on an iron plate, delivering more and more boon corruption, destabilising PvP/WvW and leading to further nerfs... > > The stupid reality of GW2's necromancer... Ok so i have to comment on this on how i honestly feel after reading that. Then again is it really anets fault that people want super altruistic support on a profession that thematically should not really offer it in the same ways that other professions do in the first place? - plays healing druid - plays necro but wants it to do the same thing although thematically that makes no sense - plays support firebrand - wants necro to work the same way thing although thematically that also makes no sense Thematically the things people want necro to be is a stupid reality. IF we look at any necromancer character in gw2 or at least the few story based ones i can think off. None of them have ever been the "Super supports all stars" people constantly dream of necro being. Further more its often overlooked that Pve Foes dont work the same as other players they dont boon spam or condition spam out the butt to make necro seem worth much in pve content except in a few areas. Perhaps we shouldn't put all the blame on the profession and how the tools it currently has works but instead should look at how pve foes work and the fact that they are not programed or designed to include necros forms of offensive support. People need to also just swallow the reality pill that necro will not be a "i touch you and make your ouchies feel better" altruistic support profession. It thematically makes no sense for it to be. You have 3 or 4 other professions that thematically can do this purely and perfectly. Yes necro will have some droplet healing but i honestly think anet designed this to give necro sub support and most of it is still offensive based requiring you to do something offensive or in the act of doing it it has some sort of offensive strike, not true support like people want it to be. This support was designed with the idea that it can help as some extra in a pinch but would not be the main go to ideal support. Its something you can take without investing in healing power to be helpful but not something people should look to you to receive tip top healing. I think the biggest altruistic actions necro should have should be saving downed players or full on dead players very quickly. Not healing for big numbers, or giving a damage boost for healing a player. Barrier is ok but i mean thats even questionable because it a bit too altruistic and provides no offensive boost. Maybe enhancing spirits and souls via spectral magic or something to grant a temporary boost to allied players around... the necro or something like that would be acceptable (thinking "soul burn" for anyone who ever played bade and soul's warlock) But still thats offensive supporting as it should be for the necro. Im honestly tired of people wanting to throw all this super altruistic support into necro like its suppose to thematically be there in the first place... its really not. If anything we should be asking for a retouch to offensive support tools. Skills like Soul beast elite stance being shared with allies, Guardians Purging Flames, is a perfect example of how necro support should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > The real issue isn't that the necromancer seem to not have support, the real issue is what ANet envision as the necromancer's support. > > - Boon corruption > > - Condition draw/transfert > > - Barrier > > - soft conditions (vulnerability, weakness... etc.) > > - Condition to boon conversion > > - Revive ability > > > > From a PvE point of view, the necromancer's support is terrible and inadapted. From a PvP/WvW point of view this support can easily seen as OP. There is no middle point for those tools since they benefit a lot more from PvP/WvW environment than they do from PvE environment. Even pushing PvE environment closer to what PvP/WvW is, is, in the end, unrealistic. > > > > From necromancer's design point of view, staff is a good support weapon, dagger off-hand as well and scourge is a masterpiece of support. From a PvE player point of view, all of this is crap. So, there will still be endless complains about necromancer lacking meaningfull support and ANet will still bang their head on an iron plate, delivering more and more boon corruption, destabilising PvP/WvW and leading to further nerfs... > > > > The stupid reality of GW2's necromancer... > > Ok so i have to comment on this on how i honestly feel after reading that. > > Then again is it really anets fault that people want super altruistic support on a profession that thematically should not really offer it in the same ways that other professions do in the first place? > - plays healing druid > - plays necro but wants it to do the same thing although thematically that makes no sense > - plays support firebrand > - wants necro to work the same way thing although thematically that also makes no sense > > Thematically the things people want necro to be is a stupid reality. IF we look at any necromancer character in gw2 or at least the few story based ones i can think off. None of them have ever been the "Super supports all stars" people constantly dream of necro being. > > Further more its often overlooked that Pve Foes dont work the same as other players they dont boon spam or condition spam out the butt to make necro seem worth much in pve content except in a few areas. Perhaps we shouldn't put all the blame on the profession and how the tools it currently has works but instead should look at how pve foes work and the fact that they are not programed or designed to include necros forms of offensive support. People need to also just swallow the reality pill that necro will not be a "i touch you and make your ouchies feel better" altruistic support profession. It thematically makes no sense for it to be. You have 3 or 4 other professions that thematically can do this purely and perfectly. > > Yes necro will have some droplet healing but i honestly think anet designed this to give necro sub support and most of it is still offensive based requiring you to do something offensive or in the act of doing it it has some sort of offensive strike, not true support like people want it to be. This support was designed with the idea that it can help as some extra in a pinch but would not be the main go to ideal support. Its something you can take without investing in healing power to be helpful but not something people should look to you to receive tip top healing. > > I think the biggest altruistic actions necro should have should be saving downed players or full on dead players very quickly. Not healing for big numbers, or giving a damage boost for healing a player. Barrier is ok but i mean thats even questionable because it a bit too altruistic and provides no offensive boost. Maybe enhancing spirits and souls via spectral magic or something to grant a temporary boost to allied players around... the necro or something like that would be acceptable (thinking "soul burn" for anyone who ever played bade and soul's warlock) But still thats offensive supporting as it should be for the necro. > > Im honestly tired of people wanting to throw all this super altruistic support into necro like its suppose to thematically be there in the first place... its really not. If anything we should be asking for a retouch to offensive support tools. Skills like Soul beast elite stance being shared with allies, Guardians Purging Flames, is a perfect example of how necro support should be. I don't really understand why you end up reacting like this to what I wrote. I simply expressed my pessimism about how ANet seem to envision the necromancer's support based on what they give to the necromancer usually. Nowhere did I make any suggestion or whatever, I just said that what they give us isn't adapted for PvE and will never be realistically adapted to PvE and that the more they will push these tools on the necromancer the more issue there will be in PvP/WvW. Now, to react to your reaction ;) - Support by definition is altruistic or else we don't call that support. - GW2's professions are meant to be able to take on any role and support is a role, that is in order for each player to be able to play what he want. - GW1 necromancers were very good support, which mean that, at least in the past, the necromancers were very proficient in "support". Based on their past proficiency, one can legitimately wonder why they evolved into our GW2's necromancer. - I don't think the idea of the necromancer being the best at rallying the downed is thematically in accord with the profession. Downed are not "dead", they are still alive. - ANet designed the necromancer around the idea of a condition manipulator and it's support is directly related. The issue is that whatever they do, such design will never be able to shine in PvE due to both encounter design and mobs specificities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > The real issue isn't that the necromancer seem to not have support, the real issue is what ANet envision as the necromancer's support. > > > - Boon corruption > > > - Condition draw/transfert > > > - Barrier > > > - soft conditions (vulnerability, weakness... etc.) > > > - Condition to boon conversion > > > - Revive ability > > > > > > From a PvE point of view, the necromancer's support is terrible and inadapted. From a PvP/WvW point of view this support can easily seen as OP. There is no middle point for those tools since they benefit a lot more from PvP/WvW environment than they do from PvE environment. Even pushing PvE environment closer to what PvP/WvW is, is, in the end, unrealistic. > > > > > > From necromancer's design point of view, staff is a good support weapon, dagger off-hand as well and scourge is a masterpiece of support. From a PvE player point of view, all of this is crap. So, there will still be endless complains about necromancer lacking meaningfull support and ANet will still bang their head on an iron plate, delivering more and more boon corruption, destabilising PvP/WvW and leading to further nerfs... > > > > > > The stupid reality of GW2's necromancer... > > > > Ok so i have to comment on this on how i honestly feel after reading that. > > > > Then again is it really anets fault that people want super altruistic support on a profession that thematically should not really offer it in the same ways that other professions do in the first place? > > - plays healing druid > > - plays necro but wants it to do the same thing although thematically that makes no sense > > - plays support firebrand > > - wants necro to work the same way thing although thematically that also makes no sense > > > > Thematically the things people want necro to be is a stupid reality. IF we look at any necromancer character in gw2 or at least the few story based ones i can think off. None of them have ever been the "Super supports all stars" people constantly dream of necro being. > > > > Further more its often overlooked that Pve Foes dont work the same as other players they dont boon spam or condition spam out the butt to make necro seem worth much in pve content except in a few areas. Perhaps we shouldn't put all the blame on the profession and how the tools it currently has works but instead should look at how pve foes work and the fact that they are not programed or designed to include necros forms of offensive support. People need to also just swallow the reality pill that necro will not be a "i touch you and make your ouchies feel better" altruistic support profession. It thematically makes no sense for it to be. You have 3 or 4 other professions that thematically can do this purely and perfectly. > > > > Yes necro will have some droplet healing but i honestly think anet designed this to give necro sub support and most of it is still offensive based requiring you to do something offensive or in the act of doing it it has some sort of offensive strike, not true support like people want it to be. This support was designed with the idea that it can help as some extra in a pinch but would not be the main go to ideal support. Its something you can take without investing in healing power to be helpful but not something people should look to you to receive tip top healing. > > > > I think the biggest altruistic actions necro should have should be saving downed players or full on dead players very quickly. Not healing for big numbers, or giving a damage boost for healing a player. Barrier is ok but i mean thats even questionable because it a bit too altruistic and provides no offensive boost. Maybe enhancing spirits and souls via spectral magic or something to grant a temporary boost to allied players around... the necro or something like that would be acceptable (thinking "soul burn" for anyone who ever played bade and soul's warlock) But still thats offensive supporting as it should be for the necro. > > > > Im honestly tired of people wanting to throw all this super altruistic support into necro like its suppose to thematically be there in the first place... its really not. If anything we should be asking for a retouch to offensive support tools. Skills like Soul beast elite stance being shared with allies, Guardians Purging Flames, is a perfect example of how necro support should be. > > I don't really understand why you end up reacting like this to what I wrote. I simply expressed my pessimism about how ANet seem to envision the necromancer's support based on what they give to the necromancer usually. > > Nowhere did I make any suggestion or whatever, I just said that what they give us isn't adapted for PvE and will never be realistically adapted to PvE and that the more they will push these tools on the necromancer the more issue there will be in PvP/WvW. oh i know im just pointing those things out > > Now, to react to your reaction ;) > - Support by definition is altruistic or else we don't call that support. I often dont see being altruistic and supporting being exactly the same thing. And in necro case i wouldn't call most of its tools altruistic in nature although they do provide some support. You can be selfless, which for all purposes is being supportive in definition, by taking an offensive action or giving others the power or opening to perform an offensive action. To do this does not require you to have the healers touch that is most often seen as support. My point is that if we want to talk "support" on necro lets look at more offensive support options not restoring hp and things of that nature. I think this would be the easiest way for anet to work in that altruistic action on necro in pve but as for where that should go is up for debate I dont think that simply making 1 weapon grant some regen or take some conditions will really cut it though. > - GW2's professions are meant to be able to take on any role and support is a role, that is in order for each player to be able to play what he want. I got this feeling as promised initially when the game first launched but its clear that anet has adjusted and removed alot of the paths for many of the professions by adding better tools to other professions or out right changing how something worked on one or anther. Generally if you really really want to play support you dont look to necro first these days. I suppose scourge has good support value but there are better more accepted and popular options too look at first. > - GW1 necromancers were very good support, which mean that, at least in the past, the necromancers were very proficient in "support". Based on their past proficiency, one can legitimately wonder why they evolved into our GW2's necromancer. This is always a questionable thing that makes me think too.... It could be for a ton of reasons. Necromancy became more restricted forcing those in the practice to adapt and change, other magic users and there techniques for support became stronger removing the need for necro support thus they adapted to become something else. Necros improved and became more selfish with power. Power is something thats displayed quit a bit in the current iteration of necromancer. Might all over everything. Lastly it wouldn't be guild wars 2 if everything was the same as the first game and thats probably the biggest factor. > - I don't think the idea of the necromancer being the best at rallying the downed is thematically in accord with the profession. Downed are not "dead", they are still alive. Downed can be seen as near death and thus saving one from the brink of death is thematically in line with the necro in my opinion. you have to think that if this were shown in a comic book or anime perspective if you will, being down might not be "sitting on your butt" and throwing a rock at a golem etc. Maybe thats going a bit far but thats how i see it. IF you cant stand from injuries you are likely pretty screwed realistically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igmolicious.5986 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Something that might add some healing/support to scourge without messing with the weapons might be changing the Desert Empowerment trait to instead grant some portion of the remaining barrier as healing when it decays. For example, let's say you regain 25% of your remaining barrier as health -- let's say you cast a 6,000 hp barrier with Sand Flare and don't get hit while it's up, when it decays you regain 1500 hp; if you cast a 6,000 hp barrier and take, let's say, 3,000 damage while it's up, you'd instead get 750 hp healed when it decayed. As long as it also affected your barriers on others, it would make Scourge a pretty solid support offering a mix of avoiding some damage and doing a little healing (though on a delay, and at risk of doing no healing if barriers are completely depleted before decaying). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 @ZDragon.3046 My point was more that I can easily understand why people want the necromancer to be different and have more "support". In GW1 I wasn't playing that much necromancer but in group content (at an era where players weren't really exploiting assassin ;) ) the necromancer was a pilar of support thanks to it's unique ability to increase it's teammate mana regen, it's very potent curses and, overall, it's unparallele ability to generate mana for himself (soul reaping) allowing him to be a very potent healer when dual classed with monk or ritualist. On another hand, mesmer wasn't much of a support in GW1, it was a very good profession to dual class with, but it's benefit were mostly "selfish". The ranger wasn't much of a healer but no one can say that he wasn't a great support either... Sometime I miss the strategy involved behind the use of GW1 ranger's spirits, they were truly gamechanging skills that your whole team had to adapt their builds to (Yeah I was a ranger main in gw1, thought I was more than often forced to play monk which is why I appreciated ANet's will to remove any rigid trinity when they launched GW2). I think that the support of the necromancer in GW2 is also hindered by the design of the shroud... This d*** shroud design really impact this profession in way too many negative way and this issue lie at the core of the necromancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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