[Suggestion] "Griefing" report option [merged]

[reaVer.4056]

> @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > > > Just like magic....

> > > >

> > > > If you actually had to explain how to do that particular trick, taking into account GW2s architecture, infrastructure and use scenarios, well, now that would indeed be some magic. By all means, proceed....

> > >

> > > I tend to agree. What another game did, or the technological explanations of what might be possible, in a theoretical sense, do not always intersect with what truly IS possible.

> >

> > Since quake 2 is from 1997, I would most certainly hope that GW2 is more capable than that engine :p I can explain how typical engines work, but it would take me a few pages and there's plenty of stuff about that I still wouldn't know. The generic flow of actions however is events followed by logic followed by visual/audio representation. What you essentially record is the converted event data. Replaying the exact same string of commands from a saved gamestate (world containing all relevant gameplay information) should always get the same result. There really is no magic to this, people have managed to implement this logic by purely recording inputs players make. Heck, I have made a netcode implementation for nullDC doing exactly that and desyncs were fairly minimal. You can confirm with your devs that there is some sort of command stream that can be recorded, and since the amount of player actions isn't all that big, they will most usually fit within less than a kilobyte.

>

> I think you're missing the point.

>

> No one is arguing the technical feasibility of playback. The point is the actual implementation of it.

>

> It's rather condescending to presume that many readers, and especially the devs aren't technically savvy enough to understand the suggestion of, as you put it, a twenty year old technology many of us have seen, used, or perhaps even worked with. If it were as easy, or at least not as dev resource intensive to such a degree where it becomes prohibitive, they would be aware of the benefits of such a tool and implement it. However, giving the benefit of the doubt that they can evaluate the effort and cost involved, it can be assumed that such an implementation would come at a cost greater than the any perceived benefit up until this point and would remain as such, until they may deem otherwise.

 

If a reader ventures off into the world of madness and starts asking "how do we **video** record everything?" there clearly is a knowledge gap to be crossed. I don't see how sharing this knowledge in layman's terms is condescending to anyone, especially since it would already improve the feasibility of what they need to much more acceptable levels.

And I say 'need', because as mentioned in this thread, the griefers just managed to shut down events. That already means that they have reached critical mass on the event and that means people have stopped playing those events. Those events are a good source for gold/materials and because there's no substitute players will eventually quit playing the game. So not only is this necessary, this has to be dealt with with haste.

 

 

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

It does seem like a puzzle how to deal with it. I mean, with the raptors-in-beginner-zones there was an easy mechanical fix (which still took them six months of outcry to implement.)

 

There is no easy mechanical fix for the organized meta-trolling problem. And so far there is (as far as I know) no rule that says Anet will disband guilds being used to coordinate event harassment. (They could just re-form the guild again, anyway. And what if the guild leader is not involved in the sabotage, and it's just a group who happen to be in the guild? Then the guild leader loses everything and the actual kittens walk away unpunished, off to ruin another guild. Not to mention that guild members not involved in the trouble would get their guild taken away for nothing.) And if Anet goes after individuals, I expect we will see tons of complaints about 'I got banned for accidentally moving a single trigger blossom to the wrong spot, wut??' And newbies would get swept up in the ban. For example, people who didn't know yet that you had to coordinate the octovine kills, or who looked at what 'veteran' players were doing and assumed that was what was the way the meta was supposed to be done.

 

So, yeah, it's obvious that SOMETHING needs to be done, but it's a pretty complicated question of WHAT.

[reaVer.4056]

> @"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:

> It does seem like a puzzle how to deal with it. I mean, with the raptors-in-beginner-zones there was an easy mechanical fix (which still took them six months of outcry to implement.)

>

> There is no easy mechanical fix for the organized meta-trolling problem. And so far there is (as far as I know) no rule that says Anet will disband guilds being used to coordinate event harassment. (They could just re-form the guild again, anyway. And what if the guild leader is not involved in the sabotage, and it's just a group who happen to be in the guild? Then the guild leader loses everything and the actual kittens walk away unpunished, off to ruin another guild. Not to mention that guild members not involved in the trouble would get their guild taken away for nothing.) And if Anet goes after individuals, I expect we will see tons of complaints about 'I got banned for accidentally moving a single trigger blossom to the wrong spot, wut??' And newbies would get swept up in the ban. For example, people who didn't know yet that you had to coordinate the octovine kills, or who looked at what 'veteran' players were doing and assumed that was what was the way the meta was supposed to be done.

>

> So, yeah, it's obvious that SOMETHING needs to be done, but it's a pretty complicated question of WHAT.

Sadly you put all your points in one alinea so it's harder to pick apart... So mechanically circumventing this would involve making the meta easier (no synchronization clause for example) which would result in less rewards. This is generally a no go as far as the players are concerned.

As for the rule that should apply here, it's the first rule of the code of conduct that states you're not allowed to infringe on the enjoyment of other people (hence the rule I wrote above to set as a griefer report scope). This indeed does not mean guilds would get banned even if the guild in its entirely was involved. Instead all the guild's members would be facing a ban.

So now "if Anet goes after individuals they may ban the wrong people". First of all, people can generally see a mistake from real griefing and they will usually not mash that report button on the first sighting as they will know it would put unnecessary strain on the support team. (Unless the players in question are complete narcissists of course, but there shouldn't be that many.) Furthermore, if someone is doing something wrong he will usually be receptive to corrections from the other players and thus the mere act of talking can resolve the situation immediately rather than next week when the GM has actually had time to see what the mess was about. It is also why a recording is so important, because the DotA2 way of report thresholds has sent people to the wrong places repeatedly to the point they have given up.

 

[Mourningcry.9428]

> @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > > > > Just like magic....

> > > > >

> > > > > If you actually had to explain how to do that particular trick, taking into account GW2s architecture, infrastructure and use scenarios, well, now that would indeed be some magic. By all means, proceed....

> > > >

> > > > I tend to agree. What another game did, or the technological explanations of what might be possible, in a theoretical sense, do not always intersect with what truly IS possible.

> > >

> > > Since quake 2 is from 1997, I would most certainly hope that GW2 is more capable than that engine :p I can explain how typical engines work, but it would take me a few pages and there's plenty of stuff about that I still wouldn't know. The generic flow of actions however is events followed by logic followed by visual/audio representation. What you essentially record is the converted event data. Replaying the exact same string of commands from a saved gamestate (world containing all relevant gameplay information) should always get the same result. There really is no magic to this, people have managed to implement this logic by purely recording inputs players make. Heck, I have made a netcode implementation for nullDC doing exactly that and desyncs were fairly minimal. You can confirm with your devs that there is some sort of command stream that can be recorded, and since the amount of player actions isn't all that big, they will most usually fit within less than a kilobyte.

> >

> > I think you're missing the point.

> >

> > No one is arguing the technical feasibility of playback. The point is the actual implementation of it.

> >

> > It's rather condescending to presume that many readers, and especially the devs aren't technically savvy enough to understand the suggestion of, as you put it, a twenty year old technology many of us have seen, used, or perhaps even worked with. If it were as easy, or at least not as dev resource intensive to such a degree where it becomes prohibitive, they would be aware of the benefits of such a tool and implement it. However, giving the benefit of the doubt that they can evaluate the effort and cost involved, it can be assumed that such an implementation would come at a cost greater than the any perceived benefit up until this point and would remain as such, until they may deem otherwise.

>

> If a reader ventures off into the world of madness and starts asking "how do we **video** record everything?" there clearly is a knowledge gap to be crossed. I don't see how sharing this knowledge in layman's terms is condescending to anyone, especially since it would already improve the feasibility of what they need to much more acceptable levels.

> And I say 'need', because as mentioned in this thread, the griefers just managed to shut down events. That already means that they have reached critical mass on the event and that means people have stopped playing those events. Those events are a good source for gold/materials and because there's no substitute players will eventually quit playing the game. So not only is this necessary, this has to be dealt with with haste.

>

>

 

That's not why it is condescending. As explained, it's condescending to presume that the Anet development is ignorant of not only the existence of playback algorithms, but even if they knew about, didn't implement because they didn't know technically how to do it, and needed you to come on to the forums and explain it to them. This is regardless of the degree to which Gaile is familiar with it; if she truly needed or wanted a technical explanation as it pertains to GW2, I would venture that they could dig up someone that might be able to explain it... just maybe, ya think?

 

Further, there really is no absolute need to do anything despite how strongly you and others feel there needs to be.

 

AB is just another farm. There were farms before it, and there will be more after it once it's gone. I can't even recall all the farms that have come and gone in this game alone in the last six years... Since the corrective actions of AB Multi-loot, AB really is just a shadow of what it used to be. There are already better farms out there; there are substitutes. There will always be a subset of people trolling events, playback isn't the silver bullet you make it out to be.

 

Honestly, if it's a farm you're trying to save, all this zeal may be better placed in asking for development resources to be spent on a new meta for an upcoming release that can be farmed, instead of on a technology that will, at best be a deterrent for a small subset of players.

[Kanok.3027]

How to fix this issue:

1. Download OBS

2. Record offenders in action

3. Upload to Youtube

4. Send video link in Ticket

5. Done

 

Not really difficult, people. OBS is so easy to use that anyone with a brain stem can use it. Seriously, 8 year olds can use it just fine. Pick video source, record, upload. Telling the devs and staff that it's their responsibility to make your reporting easier because you can't be bothered has me at a loss for words. This can be done with PvE, PvP and WvW. Report the offenders with OBS; done.

[reaVer.4056]

> @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > > > @"reaVer.4056" said:

> > > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > > > > > Just like magic....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you actually had to explain how to do that particular trick, taking into account GW2s architecture, infrastructure and use scenarios, well, now that would indeed be some magic. By all means, proceed....

> > > > >

> > > > > I tend to agree. What another game did, or the technological explanations of what might be possible, in a theoretical sense, do not always intersect with what truly IS possible.

> > > >

> > > > Since quake 2 is from 1997, I would most certainly hope that GW2 is more capable than that engine :p I can explain how typical engines work, but it would take me a few pages and there's plenty of stuff about that I still wouldn't know. The generic flow of actions however is events followed by logic followed by visual/audio representation. What you essentially record is the converted event data. Replaying the exact same string of commands from a saved gamestate (world containing all relevant gameplay information) should always get the same result. There really is no magic to this, people have managed to implement this logic by purely recording inputs players make. Heck, I have made a netcode implementation for nullDC doing exactly that and desyncs were fairly minimal. You can confirm with your devs that there is some sort of command stream that can be recorded, and since the amount of player actions isn't all that big, they will most usually fit within less than a kilobyte.

> > >

> > > I think you're missing the point.

> > >

> > > No one is arguing the technical feasibility of playback. The point is the actual implementation of it.

> > >

> > > It's rather condescending to presume that many readers, and especially the devs aren't technically savvy enough to understand the suggestion of, as you put it, a twenty year old technology many of us have seen, used, or perhaps even worked with. If it were as easy, or at least not as dev resource intensive to such a degree where it becomes prohibitive, they would be aware of the benefits of such a tool and implement it. However, giving the benefit of the doubt that they can evaluate the effort and cost involved, it can be assumed that such an implementation would come at a cost greater than the any perceived benefit up until this point and would remain as such, until they may deem otherwise.

> >

> > If a reader ventures off into the world of madness and starts asking "how do we **video** record everything?" there clearly is a knowledge gap to be crossed. I don't see how sharing this knowledge in layman's terms is condescending to anyone, especially since it would already improve the feasibility of what they need to much more acceptable levels.

> > And I say 'need', because as mentioned in this thread, the griefers just managed to shut down events. That already means that they have reached critical mass on the event and that means people have stopped playing those events. Those events are a good source for gold/materials and because there's no substitute players will eventually quit playing the game. So not only is this necessary, this has to be dealt with with haste.

> >

> >

>

> That's not why it is condescending. As explained, it's condescending to presume that the Anet development is ignorant of not only the existence of playback algorithms, but even if they knew about, didn't implement because they didn't know technically how to do it, and needed you to come on to the forums and explain it to them. This is regardless of the degree to which Gaile is familiar with it; if she truly needed or wanted a technical explanation as it pertains to GW2, I would venture that they could dig up someone that might be able to explain it... just maybe, ya think?

I didn't presume the ArenaNet development team is ignorant of this, I presumed Gaile was ignorant of this and that without that explanation I gave she may not even have been inclined to ask the development team what the technical side is of the matter. I am a software developer and I know developers will have a different outlook on the matter than she described, so I'm not too worried about them. They however, are not responding here.

> Further, there really is no absolute need to do anything despite how strongly you and others feel there needs to be.

It depends on where you want the game to go. If you want to have it head in the direction of losing its playerbase then sure, ignoring the issue is definitely the way to go.

> AB is just another farm. There were farms before it, and there will be more after it once it's gone. I can't even recall all the farms that have come and gone in this game alone in the last six years... Since the corrective actions of AB Multi-loot, AB really is just a shadow of what it used to be. There are already better farms out there; there are substitutes. There will always be a subset of people trolling events, playback isn't the silver bullet you make it out to be.

What do you think those griefers will do when they find out they are the only ones showing up at AB meta?

> Honestly, if it's a farm you're trying to save, all this zeal may be better placed in asking for development resources to be spent on a new meta for an upcoming release that can be farmed, instead of on a technology that will, at best be a deterrent for a small subset of players.

When I left AB meta at 9 pm and went to do tequatl instead, the trolls weren't there yet and that was a month ago. Someone already reported in here that tequatl is being griefed like AB meta. Clearly they are doing everything within their ability to destroy people's enjoyment of the game in its entirely. It will not be limited to the AB meta and it will not end until the game is really dead.

 

 

[altermaven.7385]

> @"Kanok.3027" said:

> How to fix this issue:

> 1. Download OBS

> 2. Record offenders in action

> 3. Upload to Youtube

> 4. Send video link in Ticket

> 5. Done

>

> Not really difficult, people. OBS is so easy to use that anyone with a brain stem can use it. Seriously, 8 year olds can use it just fine. Pick video source, record, upload. Telling the devs and staff that it's their responsibility to make your reporting easier because you can't be bothered has me at a loss for words. This can be done with PvE, PvP and WvW. Report the offenders with OBS; done.

 

If you upload, make sure it's unlisted. That way, unsavory types won't be able to downvote/mockreport your video to *kitten* and back, and you can send the link to the intended targets (e.g. support). Also, OBS isn't the only tool you can use, but it's the most flexible but free one.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

too bad you can not name the guilds involved. It would help a lot to be able to just switch maps if this organized idiot squad turned up.

[Kitta.3657]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Tanith.5264" said:

> > There's a guild that makes a regular practice of sabotaging the Tequatl the Sunless event every reset by pulling abominations into the zerg during the burn phase and blowing them up. Then they type "F" which for some reason is quite hilarious to them. I and others have reported them repeatedly to no effect. If someone has another suggestion to put a stop to this, I'm all ears.

> >

> > ;)

> This might be one of those cases where a detailed e-mail/ticket to the CS Team would be helpful. Normally I'd recommend an in-game report, but there isn't a way to report this with enough data or an accurate description, so I'd suggest a ticket with the offer of screenshots if you have a couple. (Don't attach them in the first e-mail -- they will be blocked for security reasons, just tells the agent if you have them). Best information: Exact spelling of the guild and the guild members involved, server name, time of day and date (with time zone).

>

 

Wait what? You're telling us now that the screenshots posted right away are blocked because of security reasons?? That has never been said in ANY of my customer support tickets. Also, everytime I have reported someone for griefing/harassment, the GM in support has told me to report ingame as if they didn't understand the first mail I already sent them explaining how I did do report them ingame but none of the option fulfilled the type of report I meant and thus would be clogging the system. Some GMs have been really nice and empathetic but when it comes to reporting griefing, it takes more than 1 mail to get the message to be heard.

 

It's actually quite painful to try and report an abusive player with your support. Let me tell you of my experience of being stalked by 2 people for 5 months, legit making me quit the game for a while in the hopes they'll stop since support wasn't actually helping. These 2 individuals would create guilds about me, follow me EVERYWHERE in the game (from PvE to WvW but especially WvW being my main game mode, it's really hard to avoid them considering they were on my server on top of it), in WvW they would ruin my fights and throw siege on me whenever they could. They even went to the length of copying character looks? It was insanity. They also would harass me out of the game on social medias, stalk them and make new accounts to message me constantly - which I told to support just to paint the whole picture and they couldn't understand I was only explaining to them the extent of these people's harassment because I'm smarter than to expect Anet can do anything about their behavior out of the game obviously. This behavior followed for 5 months!! Support would tell me they're investigating, they would tell me to unblock them (?) and then tell me to just block them... It made no sense and it never felt like they were helping me. No matter the screenshots or the videos sent.

 

That was my worse experience of griefing I've had in this game. I have had other experiences but nothing to this degree and both the reporting function or contacting support was of no help in this situation. I've never known if the players were banned or they just stopped playing for a period of time (they're back to playing nowadays as I see them online in my block list but they've moved on I guess).

 

I want my post to be constructive so here are the two things I think should be done so players have a better experience with the problems at hand:

 

1- Add "Harassment'' into the reporting system. But not just that, I think this game is in desperate need for us to be able to write a small blurb of information (limited characters) to accompany our reports like any other respectable MMO I have played. Every one of them. I do not understand why this was not pushed for in the past and even pre-launch as I believe it to be crucial to a report system.

 

2- Change how blocking players work. I am not expecting a system where you cannot see players that have blocked you, that would be WAY too much to ask and not realistic the bare minimum that this game should have is not let blocked players see the "victim's" online status or location. That is plain egregious in my opinion that my stalkers could know where I was and when I was online while I had them blocked and basically allowed them to stalk me. If this could come with a compromise on LFG + blocked players would be appreciated by many I'm certain but I think the bare minimum is to stop giving ways for these players to do what they do.

 

I love Guild Wars 2 but these experiences from griefers/harassers and the lack of tools or help to deal with these is the most shameful aspect of the game. I know people that have been banned for the littlest offenses yet these players that go out of their way to ruin people's days are let to do whatever they want.