Kam.4092 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Kam.4092" said: > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > @"Kam.4092" said: > > > > Life Force on enemy deaths is just like Soul Reaping in Guild Wars 1. Whenever enemies died, you got energy in Guild Wars 1. Life Force mechanics are similar to this, and kept the feel of benefitting from deaths around you. In Guild Wars 1 you didn't "control" it. Why should you in Guild Wars 2. > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Reaping > > > > > > > > They'll never change Life Force gains for Necromancer. It would destroy a huge class theme. Also it would mess with PvP and especially WvW. Also I don't get your post really, it's just asking for a straight up nerf. Even if they buffed other Life Force gains from Traits and weapons, you'd be crippled on add phases, and several game modes. When in a huge blob in WvW you want endless Life Force filling up. You need this to survive, do damage, and support. When in PvE you need huge bursts of Life Force at times for living through mechanics, and burst AoE DPS. When in PvP it's similar issues. Why would you want to nerf Necromancer in one of the dumbest ways possible ever. > > > > > > > > This would be the biggest nerf to Power Reaper, because it struggles to keep Life Force flowing in high damage fights. A lot of fights have adds, so this helps them keep DPSing, and not instantly leave Shroud before doing a full Shroud rotation. Power Reaper is already extremely crippled by this in Raids. Another thing is it would destroy being able to cleave enemies, and AoE burst in Fractals. That's another scenario where you want Life Force nonstop. Honestly Necromancer needs more access to Life Force to even make Power Reaper consistent in Raids. Raiders state this as a main problem with it. Even the recent buffs didn't fix it. You can look at the benchmark, and think it's some amazing buffs, but in Raids Power Reaper suffers from lack of Life Force gains. > > > > > > > > If anything we need buffs to all Life Force gains from weapons, and more Life Force gain while in Shroud. Just for PvE though, it would break PvP and WvW. Life Force isn't as much of a problem for Scourge, but for Power Reaper it is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Increase Life Force gain from Life Reap from 1.5% to 3.5% as a start. Just for PvE though. > > > > > > > > This change wouldn't fix anything, and make things worse in certain game modes. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time. > > > > > > > > Tl;dr > > > > Life Force is similar to Soul Reaping from Guild Wars 1, which gave Energy on enemy deaths. It's an important theme of the class, and will never change. > > > > > > > > This change would cripple builds like Power Reaper, and Reaper's Shroud needs more Life Force gains while in Shroud to DPS efficiently in Raids. The change would also nerf Power Reaper AoE capabilities. When talking to raiders they say the same. Unblockable damage nerfs Power Reaper DPS heavily. This change wouldn't mess with Scourge in WvW or PvP as much though. The main issues are in PvE. If they add 1.5% Life Force gain on Scepter auto, and buff Life Reap Life Force gain from 1.5% to 3.5% it would be a good start at fixing things for Condition Scourge and Power Reaper. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time. > > > > > > it's pretty obvious that OP thinks that the LF from nearby deaths is the cause of the "difficult to balance"-state necro is in. may i inquire to what you think the cause of this state is? > > > > > > also mechanics > themeing > > > > I just think they are using Life Force as an excuse now. The extra health bar is not that big compared to other classes and their defensive traits/abilities. As a Guardian I can live just as easy through mechanics as "squishy" Dragonhunter and Condition Firebrand. The excuse of the second health bar is getting old, especially when others have more defense capabilities. The extra health bar is just the go to thing when people rage about wanting to nerf Necromancer. If you stun, kite, or burst down a Power Reaper it's pretty weak by itself. Power Reaper is a noob killer, just like old Dragonhunter used to be in PvP. > > > > The only bad part is that our extra health bar is also tied to our DPS. Increasing Life Force gain with weapons and in Shroud for PvE would be great. In PvP and WvW Life Force is fine, especially with the Scepter Trait change. > > > > I just think it's an old excuse now simply. > > No offense, but I never seen Anet use the source of LF from deaths as an excuse to not balance the class, nor any hint that LF from deaths was the reason it performance is bad in any game mode. While I think Necro has issues with how Core Shroud and RS work, I can't see how rethinking LF from deaths addresses any of it. > > If LF is preventing the class to move forward with fixes, it's more likely the kinds of parameters that determine regen/depletion rates, overall LF size, etc .... not the sources. There is SOME merit to how much LF is regened from deaths in the various game modes, but I think the impact is minor anyways because as we know, going into shroud in PVP/WvW is rather underwhelming in the first place. > > @"derd.6413" Do not be so dismissive of Anet's fixation on theme ... Maintaining or enhancing theme is the primary reason for many changes on classes in this game; if you notice, balance as we equate to performance isn't exactly high on their list. If you don't believe that, just click my sig and learn for yourself. Someone asked me a question that you didn't read. They asked why I thought Necro was lower than others. I referred to the extra health bar added with Life Force. It's used as an excuse due to "high" survivability. So it is Life Force that they use as an excuse. Life Force is the health bar. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_force I was not saying Life Force from deaths is an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 You can control Life Force gain just fine. Necro's have access to multiple skills ( Minions ) that we control the lives of and that offer us Life Force when they perish. Reaper even has a Shout that, in team fights, basically acts as a near instant burst Life Force gain. There are also traits, other utilities and weapon skills that grant Life Force. It is integrated in to nearly everything Necro does or can do, many of which the player can directly control. And yes, the deaths of things around you is one of them. Killing players, NPC's or your own summons being exactly how. I understand the point you're trying to make but we _do_ have the options available to us. The only time it's an issue is if you're getting spammy with your skills and find yourself hurting for Life Force when your major contributors are now on cooldown. Shroud was poorly implemented because after expansions and reworks, it progressively became irrelevant as a defensive option and was never intended to be a "second health bar" despite how people insist on using it. Shroud was supposed to be a _shield_ that you could attack behind. Used to sponge attacks you couldn't dodge while still remaining on the offensive and even becoming _more_ dangerous while protecting the Necro's health. The problem is that with the amount of incoming damage since the game has progressed, Shroud's ability to do this has become significantly less impactful. _In my opinion_ Shroud is okay as it is and so is Life Force generation. That doesn't mean I think Necro doesn't need better defensive options, I just think this particular aspect doesn't need to be reworked unless the class was rebuilt from the ground up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Kam.4092" said: > > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > > @"Kam.4092" said: > > > > > Life Force on enemy deaths is just like Soul Reaping in Guild Wars 1. Whenever enemies died, you got energy in Guild Wars 1. Life Force mechanics are similar to this, and kept the feel of benefitting from deaths around you. In Guild Wars 1 you didn't "control" it. Why should you in Guild Wars 2. > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Reaping > > > > > > > > > > They'll never change Life Force gains for Necromancer. It would destroy a huge class theme. Also it would mess with PvP and especially WvW. Also I don't get your post really, it's just asking for a straight up nerf. Even if they buffed other Life Force gains from Traits and weapons, you'd be crippled on add phases, and several game modes. When in a huge blob in WvW you want endless Life Force filling up. You need this to survive, do damage, and support. When in PvE you need huge bursts of Life Force at times for living through mechanics, and burst AoE DPS. When in PvP it's similar issues. Why would you want to nerf Necromancer in one of the dumbest ways possible ever. > > > > > > > > > > This would be the biggest nerf to Power Reaper, because it struggles to keep Life Force flowing in high damage fights. A lot of fights have adds, so this helps them keep DPSing, and not instantly leave Shroud before doing a full Shroud rotation. Power Reaper is already extremely crippled by this in Raids. Another thing is it would destroy being able to cleave enemies, and AoE burst in Fractals. That's another scenario where you want Life Force nonstop. Honestly Necromancer needs more access to Life Force to even make Power Reaper consistent in Raids. Raiders state this as a main problem with it. Even the recent buffs didn't fix it. You can look at the benchmark, and think it's some amazing buffs, but in Raids Power Reaper suffers from lack of Life Force gains. > > > > > > > > > > If anything we need buffs to all Life Force gains from weapons, and more Life Force gain while in Shroud. Just for PvE though, it would break PvP and WvW. Life Force isn't as much of a problem for Scourge, but for Power Reaper it is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Increase Life Force gain from Life Reap from 1.5% to 3.5% as a start. Just for PvE though. > > > > > > > > > > This change wouldn't fix anything, and make things worse in certain game modes. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time. > > > > > > > > > > Tl;dr > > > > > Life Force is similar to Soul Reaping from Guild Wars 1, which gave Energy on enemy deaths. It's an important theme of the class, and will never change. > > > > > > > > > > This change would cripple builds like Power Reaper, and Reaper's Shroud needs more Life Force gains while in Shroud to DPS efficiently in Raids. The change would also nerf Power Reaper AoE capabilities. When talking to raiders they say the same. Unblockable damage nerfs Power Reaper DPS heavily. This change wouldn't mess with Scourge in WvW or PvP as much though. The main issues are in PvE. If they add 1.5% Life Force gain on Scepter auto, and buff Life Reap Life Force gain from 1.5% to 3.5% it would be a good start at fixing things for Condition Scourge and Power Reaper. Think about how changes to mechanics affect all game modes, and builds next time. > > > > > > > > it's pretty obvious that OP thinks that the LF from nearby deaths is the cause of the "difficult to balance"-state necro is in. may i inquire to what you think the cause of this state is? > > > > > > > > also mechanics > themeing > > > > > > I just think they are using Life Force as an excuse now. The extra health bar is not that big compared to other classes and their defensive traits/abilities. As a Guardian I can live just as easy through mechanics as "squishy" Dragonhunter and Condition Firebrand. The excuse of the second health bar is getting old, especially when others have more defense capabilities. The extra health bar is just the go to thing when people rage about wanting to nerf Necromancer. If you stun, kite, or burst down a Power Reaper it's pretty weak by itself. Power Reaper is a noob killer, just like old Dragonhunter used to be in PvP. > > > > > > The only bad part is that our extra health bar is also tied to our DPS. Increasing Life Force gain with weapons and in Shroud for PvE would be great. In PvP and WvW Life Force is fine, especially with the Scepter Trait change. > > > > > > I just think it's an old excuse now simply. > > > > @"derd.6413" Do not be so dismissive of Anet's fixation on theme ... Maintaining or enhancing theme is the primary reason for many changes on classes in this game; if you notice, balance as we equate to performance isn't exactly high on their list. If you don't believe that, just click my sig and learn for yourself. > > "nerfing" LF generation from nearby deaths to a on kill effect isn't killing the theme, it's reducing the effectiveness of a mechanic that's thematically important, and anet has done it before when such mechanics became a problem (like with malice on DE). > note that i don't agree with OP that it's something that needs to change, but i also disagree that theming is one of the reasons it shouldn't be done. It's OK you can disagree, I'm just saying that things have been done because of theme, whether we like them or not. And not just small things ... Massive spec reworks ... like Herald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > You can control Life Force gain just fine. Necro's have access to multiple skills ( Minions ) that we control the lives of and that offer us Life Force when they perish. Reaper even has a Shout that, in team fights, basically acts as a near instant burst Life Force gain. > > There are also traits, other utilities and weapon skills that grant Life Force. It is integrated in to nearly everything Necro does or can do, many of which the player can directly control. And yes, the deaths of things around you is one of them. Killing players, NPC's or your own summons being exactly how. > > I understand the point you're trying to make but we _do_ have the options available to us. The only time it's an issue is if you're getting spammy with your skills and find yourself hurting for Life Force when your major contributors are now on cooldown. > > Shroud was poorly implemented because after expansions and reworks, it progressively became irrelevant as a defensive option and was never intended to be a "second health bar" despite how people insist on using it. Shroud was supposed to be a _shield_ that you could attack behind. Used to sponge attacks you couldn't dodge while still remaining on the offensive and even becoming _more_ dangerous while protecting the Necro's health. The problem is that with the amount of incoming damage since the game has progressed, Shroud's ability to do this has become significantly less impactful. > > _In my opinion_ Shroud is okay as it is and so is Life Force generation. That doesn't mean I think Necro doesn't need better defensive options, I just think this particular aspect doesn't need to be reworked unless the class was rebuilt from the ground up. from what i've gathered, that's not what OP is arguing. the issue is more that since necro get's LF from deaths it has no hands in it's impossibe to balance it properly since a necro doesn't have to actively participate . this is why they need to remove it in order to properly balance it (in that it give's necro too much LF in area's with lot's of deaths like wvw blob fights) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timarius.2895 Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 I am against removing life force gain from deaths, but it should have an ICD like Soul Reaping in GW1 (only able to gain energy 3 times in 15 seconds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hsiao.9705 Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 This whole post and suggestions are just stupid imo. Necro got horrific mobility if they’re caught in wvw they’re dead so not sure why need more nerf tbh. There are wayyyy more stuff that’s more op than necro like soulbeast with insane mobility and 1500 range / deadeye that invis and kill necro easilllyyyyy / power shatter Mesmer easily counter necro any day, and obviously more op stuff if you actually play the game and know you’re doing you’ll know what I’m saying, So what’s your point about removing LF from dead again?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 > @"Tom Hsiao.9705" said: > This whole post and suggestions are just stupid imo. Necro got horrific mobility if they’re caught in wvw they’re dead so not sure why need more nerf tbh. > > There are wayyyy more stuff that’s more op than necro like soulbeast with insane mobility and 1500 range / deadeye that invis and kill necro easilllyyyyy / power shatter Mesmer easily counter necro any day, and obviously more op stuff if you actually play the game and know you’re doing you’ll know what I’m saying, > > So what’s your point about removing LF from dead again?? it's a rework not a nerf. the suggestion is to change LF from nearby deaths to LF from kills and buff all other LF sources to compensate. the idea being that it makes LF generation more predictable and as such make necro easier to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hsiao.9705 Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"Tom Hsiao.9705" said: > > This whole post and suggestions are just stupid imo. Necro got horrific mobility if they’re caught in wvw they’re dead so not sure why need more nerf tbh. > > > > There are wayyyy more stuff that’s more op than necro like soulbeast with insane mobility and 1500 range / deadeye that invis and kill necro easilllyyyyy / power shatter Mesmer easily counter necro any day, and obviously more op stuff if you actually play the game and know you’re doing you’ll know what I’m saying, > > > > So what’s your point about removing LF from dead again?? > > it's a rework not a nerf. the suggestion is to change LF from nearby deaths to LF from kills and buff all other LF sources to compensate. the idea being that it makes LF generation more predictable and as such make necro easier to balance. Pretty sure I read it right it was asking for nerf along with many other responses? Personally I don’t think it needs rework either... why fix something when it’s not broken? IMO either buff necro or leave the way it is, especially the scourge nerf with sand uptime it’s just bs lol. My scourge is now retire until Anet come to their senses and realized how retarded and handicap scourge is in PVP/WVW. Changing LF from death or kill ain’t gonna fix any problem from what’s happening to scourge right now, you can have infinite LF and it ain’t gonna matter if you can’t keep your sand up the whole time lmao. What you doin with F2-F5 when you got long ass CD F1?? lolololol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 > @"Tom Hsiao.9705" said: > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > @"Tom Hsiao.9705" said: > > > This whole post and suggestions are just stupid imo. Necro got horrific mobility if they’re caught in wvw they’re dead so not sure why need more nerf tbh. > > > > > > There are wayyyy more stuff that’s more op than necro like soulbeast with insane mobility and 1500 range / deadeye that invis and kill necro easilllyyyyy / power shatter Mesmer easily counter necro any day, and obviously more op stuff if you actually play the game and know you’re doing you’ll know what I’m saying, > > > > > > So what’s your point about removing LF from dead again?? > > > > it's a rework not a nerf. the suggestion is to change LF from nearby deaths to LF from kills and buff all other LF sources to compensate. the idea being that it makes LF generation more predictable and as such make necro easier to balance. > > Pretty sure I read it right it was asking for nerf along with many other responses? Personally I don’t think it needs rework either... why fix something when it’s not broken? IMO either buff necro or leave the way it is, especially the scourge nerf with sand uptime it’s just bs lol. > > My scourge is now retire until Anet come to their senses and realized how kitten and handicap scourge is in PVP/WVW. Changing LF from death or kill ain’t gonna fix any problem from what’s happening to scourge right now, you can have infinite LF and it ain’t gonna matter if you can’t keep your sand up the whole time lmao. What you doin with F2-F5 when you got long kitten CD F1?? lolololol op's post: >To truly fix Necro, the first thing to change MUST be the life force gain from nearby deaths. The reason is that it's *uncontrollable*. not overpowered, uncontrolable also note he said, first thing > Make LF gained ONLY through active, intentional skill use. LF generating skills and traits will obviously need rebalanced aka buff to compenste OP seems under the impresion that the reason necro is hard to balance (iirc anet stated necro was hard to balance) and often get's the short end of the stick is because of LF from nearby deaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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