Sick of tired of Deadeye Immob from stealth into 1 shot

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Tatwi.3562" said:

> This is the kind of game play that breaks games. Simple as that really.

 

Indeed, not everybody can be expected to play GW2 PVP in a hardcore fashion.

 

All I can suggest is that when you start the learning curve of cranking your game's audio and instant dodging every time you hear the Death's Judgement SFX, you will never feel hopelessly outmatched against a Deadeye again. There won't be a Binding Shadow set-up all the time.

 

There is really no reason to get hit by Death's Judgement ever, unless it's one of those elaborate Binding Shadow setups, which you'll also have to learn how to avoid if you find yourself versus one running it.

 

Until you're consistently dodging every Death's Judgement possible, the forums will help vastly less than just practicing

 

 

 

[coro.3176]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Tatwi.3562" said:

> > This is the kind of game play that breaks games. Simple as that really.

>

> Indeed, not everybody can be expected to play GW2 PVP in a hardcore fashion.

>

> All I can suggest is that when you start the learning curve of cranking your game's audio and instant dodging every time you hear the Death's Judgement SFX, you will never feel hopelessly outmatched against a Deadeye again. There won't be a Binding Shadow set-up all the time.

>

> There is really no reason to get hit by Death's Judgement ever, unless it's one of those elaborate Binding Shadow setups, which you'll also have to learn how to avoid if you find yourself versus one running it.

>

> Until you're consistently dodging every Death's Judgement possible, the forums will help vastly less than just practicing

>

>

>

 

It's still pretty tough in the midst of a fight when you've got a 0.35s window (dj w/ quickness) to dodge an unblockable 1-shot kill. I mean, when you factor in lag (I get 100ms+ from west coast NA) and human reaction time (170ms average for audio stimulus, but gamers are probably a bit better), it's *pretty damn close*. I guess there's a bit of travel time for the projectile, but we're talking a buffer of like 70ms here.

 

7 hundredths of a second. That is a lot to ask when you're busy focusing on the things you can actually see.

 

I'd be interested to see if top tier players could reliably dodge that while being engaged in a fight.

 

reaction time tester for fun:

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

 

I'm pulling like 230-300ms for that (admittedly visual) test. In other words, not enough to dodge a quickness DJ with my latency. Still, I think it's better than I'd have in a busy gw2 fight hitting the dodge key.

[Math.5123]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Tatwi.3562" said:

> > This is the kind of game play that breaks games. Simple as that really.

>

> Indeed, not everybody can be expected to play GW2 PVP in a hardcore fashion.

>

> All I can suggest is that when you start the learning curve of cranking your game's audio and instant dodging every time you hear the Death's Judgement SFX, you will never feel hopelessly outmatched against a Deadeye again. There won't be a Binding Shadow set-up all the time.

>

> There is really no reason to get hit by Death's Judgement ever, unless it's one of those elaborate Binding Shadow setups, which you'll also have to learn how to avoid if you find yourself versus one running it.

>

> Until you're consistently dodging every Death's Judgement possible, the forums will help vastly less than just practicing

>

>

>

 

Casting DJ with quickness from <600 range will get the damage through before the sound queue goes off.

[Elxdark.9702]

I'm going to discuss the problems with deadeye in another thread I want to make but the main issues with this spec are:

 

- stealth on dodge

- spammable DJ

 

The fact that you can use DJ more than the enemy can dodge it's extremely frustasting because DJ is supposed to be like a finisher skill but since you can spam it, it loses all its purpose and it becomes a broken ability.

Stealth on dodge is just the perfect example of lazy design by Anet and it shouldn't exist in the game.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> I'm going to discuss the problems with deadeye in another thread I want to make but the main issues with this spec are:

>

> - stealth on dodge

> - spammable DJ

>

> The fact that you can use DJ more than the enemy can dodge it's extremely frustasting because DJ is supposed to be like a finisher skill but since you can spam it, it loses all its purpose and it becomes a broken ability.

> Stealth on dodge is just the perfect example of lazy design by Anet and it shouldn't exist in the game.

 

Stealth on dodge, stun break on dodge, casting while dodging...

 

I think this is what we are going to expect from all classes soon enough.

[ArthurDent.9538]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > I'm going to discuss the problems with deadeye in another thread I want to make but the main issues with this spec are:

> >

> > - stealth on dodge

> > - spammable DJ

> >

> > The fact that you can use DJ more than the enemy can dodge it's extremely frustasting because DJ is supposed to be like a finisher skill but since you can spam it, it loses all its purpose and it becomes a broken ability.

> > Stealth on dodge is just the perfect example of lazy design by Anet and it shouldn't exist in the game.

>

> Stealth on dodge, stun break on dodge, casting while dodging...

>

> I think this is what we are going to expect from all classes soon enough.

 

On Dodge traits are often fine like selfless daring and evasive arcana. The problem comes when the effects for these traits are way too strong for the inherrently small cooldown and uninterruptible nature dodges have. Stealth on dodge, stunbreak on dodge, and mirage cloak in general are just examples of way too strong effects tied to dodge.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > @"Tatwi.3562" said:

> > > This is the kind of game play that breaks games. Simple as that really.

> >

> > Indeed, not everybody can be expected to play GW2 PVP in a hardcore fashion.

> >

> > All I can suggest is that when you start the learning curve of cranking your game's audio and instant dodging every time you hear the Death's Judgement SFX, you will never feel hopelessly outmatched against a Deadeye again. There won't be a Binding Shadow set-up all the time.

> >

> > There is really no reason to get hit by Death's Judgement ever, unless it's one of those elaborate Binding Shadow setups, which you'll also have to learn how to avoid if you find yourself versus one running it.

> >

> > Until you're consistently dodging every Death's Judgement possible, the forums will help vastly less than just practicing

> >

> >

> >

>

> Casting DJ with quickness from <600 range will get the damage through before the sound queue goes off.

 

I'm sure y'all are playing against higher tier deadeyes than the OP. He just doesn't know wat it is like playing against top tier players.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > I'm going to discuss the problems with deadeye in another thread I want to make but the main issues with this spec are:

> > >

> > > - stealth on dodge

> > > - spammable DJ

> > >

> > > The fact that you can use DJ more than the enemy can dodge it's extremely frustasting because DJ is supposed to be like a finisher skill but since you can spam it, it loses all its purpose and it becomes a broken ability.

> > > Stealth on dodge is just the perfect example of lazy design by Anet and it shouldn't exist in the game.

> >

> > Stealth on dodge, stun break on dodge, casting while dodging...

> >

> > I think this is what we are going to expect from all classes soon enough.

>

> On Dodge traits are often fine like selfless daring and evasive arcana. The problem comes when the effects for these traits are way too strong for the inherrently small cooldown and uninterruptible nature dodges have. Stealth on dodge, stunbreak on dodge, and mirage cloak in general are just examples of way too strong effects tied to dodge.

 

What does a deadeye have to do mechanically to get stealth on dodge?

[Isle of Stars.3049]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> What does a deadeye have to do mechanically to get stealth on dodge?

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Silent_Scope

 

Silent Scope–Spec Trait:

 

Enter stealth when you dodge roll with a rifle equipped. Kneeling rifle skills and Death's Judgment gain an increased critical hit chance.

 

Stealth.png Stealth (3s): Invisible to foes.

Critical Chance.png Critical Chance Increase: 20%

 

–It aids you in re-positioning and negates any possibility from being killed instantly; annoying if you're on the receiving end.

 

 

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Thedenofsin.7340" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > I'm a terrible thief, I didn't bother with cap points and mostly just stuck to killing people and eventually started hunting a ranger, abusing stealth the whole time, Rifle/Rifle build..

> >

> >

> > So can agree that stealth needs looking into, mostly with rifle dodge.. Same can be said for Mirage dodge though I guess.

>

> More generally it's the ranged burst from stealth. Stealth provides safety. Range provides safety. More generally there should be a trade-off. If you are using a ranged weapon, extended duration stealth is unnecessary. In the case of deadeye, it causes imbalances.

>

>

 

Its not fair playing the build and being on the receiving end as a necro is almost depressing and the cause of me logging off tonight...

 

Ive played rifle rifle DE solid for a few weeks now and any other class I play leaves me thinking this would of been much easier as DE... I also notice I dodge for no reason now on other classes...

 

I think rifle dodge should have an ICD and Three Round Burst should be toned down a bit or cost more initiative... I personally cracked over 40k on that skill and if you need a video to see it I can provide it but it will also show 17k DJ openers and a lot of bad game play.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> > I'm plat 1/plat 2, and i only saw this one shot build in low plat. It was personally devastating against me, I play a full glass soulbeast and I don't run Signet of Stone or greatsword. As a result, I have 0 blocks, and depend on evades for survival. The problem I have against a competent 1-shot DE on my build is that the DE can usually predict where I'll go to try to break LOS, and can usually get to a point where they'll tap me before I can hide, thanks to 1500 kneel range.

> >

> > The real, real problem I have is the long stealth duration. For DEs that haven't invested too deeply into hiding (or just aren't that good at it), I can usually tap them with longbow 3, hide myself, and either bait them into trying to decap or just wait until they unstealth for some other reason. LB 4 into LB 2 with One Wolf Pack generally spells the end of any DE I decide to hit. However, a patient DE that has invested into stealth basically drives me from the point every single time, with the possibility of being able to kill me after resetting and chasing. There needs to be a restriction on DE restealth, and I totally agree that the Shadow Meld arms race is a terrible, terrible path to start on.

>

> I'm a terrible thief, I didn't bother with cap points and mostly just stuck to killing people and eventually started hunting a ranger, abusing stealth the whole time, Rifle/Rifle build..

>

>

> So can agree that stealth needs looking into, mostly with rifle dodge.. Same can be said for Mirage dodge though I guess.

 

Next will be warriors endure pain on dodge.

 

[Drakril.4058]

To all my Necros in the house! if you know your against a DE just run Poison Cloud and /Dance boyZ. eZ win, 100% success rate, trust it.

[Ragion.2831]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Lasica.5068" said:

> > Play a Deadeye. It's not as OP as you think.

> > It takes at least 5 moves to do what you describe,

> > - Deadeye's Mark

> > - Binding Shadow

> > - Kneel

> > - Three-Round Burst

> > - Three-Round Burst

> >

> > And it would only be successful against a glassy build who doesn't block/stunbreak/dodge etc quickly enough. Good players will survive. Players in a group will survive.

>

> Pretty much this.

>

> I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't decry anything as broken until you've played it. Often, you'll find that the thing you can't deal with has things in turn that IT can't deal with

>

 

I guess you mean rock paper scissors

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"Drakril.4058" said:

> To all my Necros in the house! if you know your against a DE just run Poison Cloud and /Dance boyZ. eZ win, 100% success rate, trust it.

 

But that would take away a utility slot that can be used for damage! YOU CAN'T SPEAK THAT WAY IN HERE EVERYTHING MUST BE ALL DAMAGE ALL THE TIME.

[kokoula.8723]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"DotDotWin.4357" said:

> > > @"Kumouta.4985" said:

> > > Just get to them and hammer em down

> >

> > So your advice is:

> > "Run towards the teleporting, sniper that takes 90% of your life in two seconds of burst then goes invisible till their skills reset and they can do it again."

> > Which branch of Imperial service did you get your Stormtrooper training in?

> >

> >

>

> That was a really funny comment but what you replied to is still true.. very often you will gap close and they will just feebly stealth-dodge once, then you nuke where their dodge roll took them - very frequently this will enough to force the DE to full reset or die.

 

Well yeah, try to find that little DE while you are getting hunted by 2-3 more players. I do not know maybe it's me that can't do it because I am that bad, but in pvp usually you have to face the DE's team as well.... And then you go boom if they are targeting you. I honestly want a skill like that on my toons too!

 

I would categorize me as a casual player and far away from being pro in pvp and I honestly know very little, but almost permanent stealth is just wrong for balance. Unless all the other classes get it too and then we can go roaming on empty maps. Hurray!!!

All I can say is that every time anet updates something, it overpowers a class and messes up with others and then frustrated players have to deal with it. No wonder why people get bored and quit (me included). When I started this game for example, ele was so fun to play in pve or pvp, then poof it became the most garbage class and now I use my ele only to craft things or as a storage toon. Sorry for my ele rant.

[DotDotWin.4357]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> Stealth on dodge is just the perfect example of lazy design by Anet and it shouldn't exist in the game.

 

I agree. Stealth, in it's entirety, needs to be like Warcraft's stealth.

It needs to be it's own ability you toggle on and it stays on until you attack something then it has a cool down till you can use it again.

I mained Rogue in wow and the greatest thing about it was sneaking. You could just bypass the content you didn't want to do, wait for guards to pat away then loot things behind their backs, harvest herbs or mine in the middle of enemy strong holds, or in PVP I would often stay at the base, sneak in and reset the towers or graveyard in AV so my team would have more time to take down the enemy boss. (Back when AV required actually achieving the objectives.)

 

Stealth classes should be about out sneaking your enemy, not just being a cheap, lazy bastard with a I-Win button on your programmable mouse.

If I had my rathers, the whole dead-eye spec would be replaced with something that was actually fun. Like a trap you can set while in stealth that when triggered flips the friend/foe indicators so your enemies will waste a few seconds shooting pointlessly at each other and doing no damage or trip wires that make them trip when your enemy runs over them, rat-traps to sticky them in place a couple seconds then cripple them a few more, smoke bombs that when triggered gives them a reduced chance to hit targets until they exit the area of effect, sleep traps that put pets/NPCs to sleep until someone revives them or snares that you put down while in stealth with a circle at your feet and a line pointing away from you. When your enemy steps into the circle part the line snaps around their foot, they are knocked down and dragged back along the line to the end of the rope at the far end. These are just some ideas for making the game more interesting instead of cheap.

 

My point is, there are so many better options than having one class instant killing people then stealthing away so they never lose.

 

PS: If anyone should have a long range sniping class it's the Ranger. The word range is in their names!

I don't think most people would have a problem with a long range attacker if it wasn't an invisible, long range attacker that could just run off and reset then do it again.

 

 

[TwiceDead.1963]

> @"Thedenofsin.7340" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > I'm a terrible thief, I didn't bother with cap points and mostly just stuck to killing people and eventually started hunting a ranger, abusing stealth the whole time, Rifle/Rifle build..

> >

> >

> > So can agree that stealth needs looking into, mostly with rifle dodge.. Same can be said for Mirage dodge though I guess.

>

> More generally it's the ranged burst from stealth. Stealth provides safety. Range provides safety. More generally there should be a trade-off. If you are using a ranged weapon, extended duration stealth is unnecessary. In the case of deadeye, it causes imbalances.

>

>

 

I agree. It really isn't anymore complicated than this. Personally I blame the kneel mechanic for the abundance of stealth the DE received. The Deadeye Rifle has to be able to set up or else it's denied it's main damage sources, Stealth is the only way they will be allowed to set up because no sane player who sees a Deadeye will allow them to set up. If they can't stealth, they can't set up, and consequently can't deal sufficient damage to be useful.

 

Stealth is the crutch Anet used to make the kneel mechanic work, but it really isn't healthy for the game.

[Isle of Stars.3049]

> @"DotDotWin.4357" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > Stealth on dodge is just the perfect example of lazy design by Anet and it shouldn't exist in the game.

>

> I agree. Stealth, in it's entirety, needs to be like Warcraft's stealth.

 

Unfortunately, this game isn't WoW and shouldn't even need to copy it.

 

While stealth may be broken, revamping of the mechanic itself would be difficult, as the Thief is not only the class that has an access to stealth.

 

What I have observed is that Death's Judgment deals too much damage for an opening strike. My take on this is to lessen the initial damage dealt by Death's Judgment, and then add the deducted damage to an increased damage per stack of Malice as a repercussion since Death's Judgment is often seen as a finishing skill, hence it should act like one.

 

 

[Tiah.3091]

*"Play a DE and you'll learn it has its weaknesses, which can be abused"*

That one is made me chuckle.

Because I actually took time and created a fresh DE, using a metabattle build ("Marauder DE" something).

 

I ran like half an hour around the mists, learning the rotation (which is mind-numbingly easy, btw).

Then I went into an Unranked and played like 15 games in a row. Lost about 3 or 4 of them, but that's not my point.

 

The point is: DE is just exactly as broken, ad people claim it is. Whoever claims "DE is ez pz 1v1" probably is not wrong. I main power Mirage (plat 1) and I have no problem killing Merciless Legend DEs (thanks to reflect traits).

 

But that is NOT the job of DE to duel 1v1. It's job is sneak on people in a middle of teamfight on point, pick an important target (which preferably can't avoid damage very well, like Scourge) and just SHOOT.

Then the target either dies, or is forced to leave point. Usually it dies, though.

Because even if you successfully dodged a 19k DJ, you will get hit by 3-round burst anyways.

And 3RB can go up to 20k easily in under 2 seconds with quckness on.

 

Honestly, **the only real and serious weakness, that I managed to find** was lack of AoE for downed cleaves.

I won't mention glassiness, because that is pretty much expected from Mara build. Although, with THAT amount of stealth you won't be focused that often, so in the end, the survivability is much better than most glass builds.

 

**TLDR**

Unless you're trying to 1v1 a Mirage or Core Guard, or facetank a Reaper... And if you really **just stick to your role**, which is outnumber fights and shoot people from 1500 range - then DE is **ABSOLUTELY broken at what it does**.

 

Just my 2 kopecks.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> I ran like half an hour around the mists, learning the rotation (which is mind-numbingly easy, btw).

> Then I went into an Unranked and played like 15 games in a row. Lost about 3 or 4 of them, but that's not my point.

 

1. "The rotation".

2. "Went into Unranked".

[Tiah.3091]

> @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> 1. "The rotation".

> 2. "Went into Unranked".

 

1. Are you implying, that DE gameplay is so immensily complex, that you can not use a term "rotation"?

I rephrase: I learned how to press "Mark" + x2 3RB + dodge + DJ + Binding Shadow.

That's in monst cases all you need to kill 90% of people.

If that fails at some point - stealth and reset through Mark reset utility cooldown. Then repeat the same.

 

2. Should I have played ranked in platinum (which is where I am right now with my main) with a character, that I created lik 30 mins ago?

Just to prove a point?

 

Seriously, if you don't have anything smart to say, better stay silent.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > 1. "The rotation".

> > 2. "Went into Unranked".

>

> 1. Are you implying, that DE gameplay is so immensily complex, that you can not use a term "rotation"?

> I rephrase: I learned how to press "Mark" + x2 3RB + dodge + DJ + Binding Shadow.

> That's in monst cases all you need to kill 90% of people.

> If that fails at some point - stealth and reset through Mark reset utility cooldown. Then repeat the same.

>

> 2. Should I have played ranked in platinum (which is where I am right now with my main) with a character, that I created lik 30 mins ago?

> Just to prove a point?

>

> Seriously, if you don't have anything smart to say, better stay silent.

 

Yeah, I did imply that The Rotation is only good against test golems and similarly AFK players. It's not that different from, say, the complex rotation (33333) of p/p thief when your enemy is AFK.

And yes, it would be great to have more proofs. "An opinion on a character I made half an hour ago" doesn't prove any points, as much as you'd like it to.

For example, if your combo is enough to down 90% of the players yet those same 90% players would go down vs fresh air elementalist or burst power mesmer or worldly impact soulbeast, then maybe it's not exactly a deadeye problem.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > @"Tiah.3091" said:

> > 1. "The rotation".

> > 2. "Went into Unranked".

>

> 1. Are you implying, that DE gameplay is so immensily complex, that you can not use a term "rotation"?

> I rephrase: I learned how to press "Mark" + x2 3RB + dodge + DJ + Binding Shadow.

> That's in monst cases all you need to kill 90% of people.

> If that fails at some point - stealth and reset through Mark reset utility cooldown. Then repeat the same.

>

> 2. Should I have played ranked in platinum (which is where I am right now with my main) with a character, that I created lik 30 mins ago?

> Just to prove a point?

>

> Seriously, if you don't have anything smart to say, better stay silent.

 

Yes..

 

Most of us know that you can get 27/2 in unranked but against a competitive player base that same build will only get 5 or 6 kills...

 

So yes, it would have been more logical to do so in ranked and you obviously made your post with a point to be made so yes again you should have done it in ranked because that would have been the smart thing to do...

 

Now what were those kind words of wisdom you gave at the end of your last post? .... .... ....

[dDuff.3860]

Well, I'd like to add opinion to the topic.

 

First of all, I think that community messing up opinions on deadeye's builds, which causing the problem. Deadeye don't spec for both mega-damage and mega-survivability. unlike every second poster says. In my opinion any thief build without trickery is clueless in Spvp due to numerous reasons i'm not going to mention here again. So what you left is one traitline to make variations.

* While SA brings a lot of defensive capability, your damage is similar to old D/P with up to 10k DJs (5 malice, quickness) and up to 9k backstabs. If you take DA version, the numbers go up but defensive power and sustain are restricted significantly. You burst like FA ele (no pbaoe cleave tho), but also die like a fly (radiant hammer, revenant, other thief, condi/power mes will do that easily). So you face two alternatives to play, which are fair tradeoff between survivability and damage.

* Utilities: unlike many other classes, thief (and deadeye in particular) has very limited choice of utilities: you always take shadowstep and 90% of time you want signet of agility (additional dodges and only reliable condi cleanse on relatively short cooldown). The above limits you to one utility slot which are highly recommended to take stunbreak into. This means - no assassin's signet, no binding shadow (noob killer ability lul), no other trouble causing ability. If you have been killed by deadeye with assassin's signet or binding shadow, just keep in mind he is limited on his stunbreaks (which causes trouble when deadeye face decent opponents). Thief always was a "noob counter" to the game

* No deadeye can land you 17k DJ openers. You should be "marked"+malice/vulnerability stacked+might on thief stacked. Any of these don't happen in 2 sec burst window (and rarely 4s burst window). Players say quickness DJ happens faster than SFX: it might be it, but without mark it won't hit for any noticeable damage, and mark itself gives SFX, which means you should go defensive unless you know DE won't kill you. In fact, 17k DJs are possible on some weird unoptimized builds which are bad at some other part of the game.

 

 

Second, as mentioned above thief always was a noob counter in the game, which made players to learn certain encounters and abilities to dodge and watch for. Most of this clueless rant comes from ones that don't want to learn and cry for nerfs. In fact, mark has a cast time (unlike steal)+SFX, DJs has cast time+reveal on cast+SFX+visual (unlike backstab or other abilities). If you "just dodge" DJ after being marked -> wp, you just negated most of rifle burst. Deadeye will be unable to burst you for 17 second (or if he has mercy (which i highly recommend to any competitive deadeye).

 

Third, there are numerous ways to counter deadeye's rifle which i'm not going to mention again (I write these a lot of times on the forum). In fact, if you been killed solely by rifle it is more "l2p issue". Just like being killed by daredevil's shortbow spam (most of mirages die to it, lul). Playing on high end of the game, I see how skilled players counter deadeye to the zero and I don't understand what is your problem to not do the same.

 

Fourth, sPvP is a team-based 5v5 game and if you see thief at the start of the game you should in general understand what type of game it would be. Just like when you see fb+nec. Is fb+nec strong? Indeed, it is, but is it unbeatable? Hell, no!

Same for deadeye, it is the same PoF cheese, introduced to the game as p2w-concept.

 

[dDuff.3860]

TL DR post above:

If you can't kill them - join them, my bets on you having troubles carrying games on 1600+

Also you'll find out that deadeye has only 60% of OPness mentioned in this topic.