What GW2 lacks and how we can make it better

[yann.1946]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > > > > I do wonder why locking coalescence is bad but Aurora isn't.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Accessibility. Aurora is basically accessible to everyone who has the LW-episodes unlocked and you can do a lot of stuff solo; raid on the other hand are quite inaccessible due to basic game design flaws. You can be happy nowadays if you can access W5B123, Dhuum is almost impossible though due to the abuse of the KP-system - the entry-requirements reached a grotesque dimension long ago (the same applies to fractal CMs too). The same will also undoubtly happen to W6. The darwinistic LI/LD/KP-hierarchy the GW2 raiding community suffers from is quite unhealthy for a MMORPG anyway. I don't see any reason to lock any more legendary items behind content which is as inaccessible as raids - doing that is quite unwise anyway since raids are purposefully created as niche-content anyway.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But this is sort off false tho. The chalice of tears is much more inaccessible then most raidbosses are.

> > > > > > The mesmers portal long you are as much a way to bypass the system as buying a raid are. (in the sense that you're not actually doing the content.)

> > > > >

> > > > > You really want to compare accessibility to a somewhat more "complex" JP - which even has checkpoints! - with accessiblity to raid-content? Sure, you have your easy encounters like Escort and W4B123, but still, the comparison is totally off. x'D

> > > >

> > > > Yes because the responsibility is much higher. The only reason I could do chalice is because I have friends who like jp and have mesmers. While you don't need to know anyone within the raid community to start raiding.

> > > >

> > > > Not saying their are no issues. But to me someone saying locking Aurora behind lw is great while locking coalescence is the worst thing ever seems hypocritical at best.

> > >

> > > There are a couple of JP's I couldn't manage because of my fear of heights. I don't have any friends in game because I play it solo and stay away from guilds. My choice. However, that means I have no friends to do the JPs for me either. And yet I have them done.

> > >

> > > And that's why you're incorrect about needing a friend for JP's. In GW2 there are people out there that actually offer runs to do things like that and I've also asked for help with HP's in HoT and surprise surprise, I got help from people that I didn't know at all.

> > >

> > > So your argument that you need to have a friend to do that for you is simply not true.

> >

> > We'll yes but their are also people who do this for raids. But they don't count because?

> >

> > My point was that the accessibility is not that different.

>

> Ok.

>

> By your argumentation, with what encounter should we compare JPs? Since raids feature difficulty-diversity, we probably have to compare accessiblity of a certain JP with the accessibility to a certain raid-boss. I started GW2 playing a Sylvari. Morgan's Spiral was my first JP. There are easier JPs, so let us put Morgan's Spiral on the same level as - let's say - VG. I still see a lot of PUGs failig to VG and people are mostly asking for 100+ LI, so not really that accessible. Your comparison is already off. There are easier JPs, stuff like Urmaug's Secret in LA. Let's compare that to Escort. Pretty easy - ok, you get into that. Still, your comparison is off, since - by your standards - we also probably have to compare stuff like Chalice of Tears or the Aetherblade JP with raid-bosses like Dhuum. Accessibility to Dhuum basically converges towards zero.

>

> Do you see now that your comparison hinges quite heavily?

 

I feel like you might have missed my point entirely. I was comparing the 2 legendary trinkets. i agree that it is easier to circumvent doing the chalice for the trinket. But i firmly believe the chalice of tears is harder to do without a portal then it is to do dhuum witout beeing sold the boss as for dhuum you can have a team which carries what you lack while the jp you have to solo.

(a lot of the complains outside the organisational aspect of raids is that people don't like failing so i feel those people also wouldn't complete the chalice without portals)

 

> > @"flog.3485" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"flog.3485" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > > I do wonder why locking coalescence is bad but Aurora isn't.

> > > > >

> > > > > Accessibility. Aurora is basically accessible to everyone who has the LW-episodes unlocked and you can do a lot of stuff solo; raid on the other hand are quite inaccessible due to basic game design flaws. You can be happy nowadays if you can access W5B123, Dhuum is almost impossible though due to the abuse of the KP-system - the entry-requirements reached a grotesque dimension long ago (the same applies to fractal CMs too). The same will also undoubtly happen to W6. The darwinistic LI/LD/KP-hierarchy the GW2 raiding community suffers from is quite unhealthy for a MMORPG anyway. I don't see any reason to lock any more legendary items behind content which is as inaccessible as raids - doing that is quite unwise anyway since raids are purposefully created as niche-content anyway.

> > > >

> > > > No offense here, but I think the biggest problem is that you assume that everything has be to accessible in a pug scenario in a quick way. Kind of like how, the legendary items that are awarded through raids shouldn’t be considered as long term progression.

> > > >

> > > > Your example of accessibility’s doesn’t make much sense imo. In terms of gear and stats, yes it is true that accessibility in this game is king whether you decide to play open world or SPvP or WvW, because each of these examples allow a player to gear up in ascended.

> > > >

> > > > However, when it comes to cosmetic....There is just no way to make everything accessible to anyone with the lowest interest possible.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What? I don't really understand you. Raids are quite inaccessible due to them being designed as niche-content. They're inaccessible since the difficulty-step from mostly braindead open-world- and story-content to raids is too high, especially since people don't really learn anything in open world and story. That's why we sadly have this darwinistic hierarchy. Raids are also fairly inaccessible because most content in this game is unsocial since it's too easy/single-player-focused that any meaningful social interaction isn't necessary. Even in raids, you barely have any social interaction anyway. That's why - yes - ArenaNet has to make stuff accessible to PUGs and you can also see that ArenaNet is somewhat balancing the game with PUGs in mind. They went in that direction and can't turn back now.

> >

> > Everything you wrote is exactly why I think the game shouldn’t head in that direction.

> >

> > I think it is bad to bring instanced content of high-end PvE closer to the difficulty of open world and story mode because as a player who mostly do story and easy PvE, I am certainly not looking forward to playing instanced content of higher PvE the same way I can play open world and story. If you do so you kill PvE the same way they killed dungeons in terms of difficulty. There should be a limit to how easy the content gets over time and offering reworks and balance patch that makes it easier is good enough for that.

> >

> > The thing is, no matter how puggable the content is, it will always be restrictive. You can’t reproduce the easy going nature of open world PvE into instanced challenging content. And using the shortcomings of raids as a scapegoat to not embrace the idea that the PoF raid wings should award a legendary ring is a dangerous argument to offer. that makes the game very stale imo; knowing that anyway, you are arguing about a ring that is nobody has crafted yet while also not acknowledging that obtaining a ring with stat-swaps can already be done in bloodstone fen.

>

> The game wasn't made for sophisticated PvE to begin with - the combat system is far too shallow to ever do that anyway. Why do you think most raid-encounters rely on gimmicky stuff or certain classes/class-skills (which is also a reason for lacking accessibility)? Because you can't have any meaningful depth in PvE with the framework the core-game offers. The game was clearly targetted at the ultra-"casual" crowd anyway. In that regard, the content needs to be PUG-able to not be completely out of tune with the basic game philosophy and the basic game itself. You can't justify having a game-mode which offers several desirable cosmetics, a lot of lore and major rewards like legendary items which only a vanishingly small audience has access to.

>

>

 

We'll the combat system is sophisticated enough that the difference between newbies and veteran is of ridicilous magnitudes

[Raizel.8175]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > The game wasn't made for sophisticated PvE to begin with - the combat system is far too shallow to ever do that anyway. Why do you think most raid-encounters rely on gimmicky stuff or certain classes/class-skills (which is also a reason for lacking accessibility)? Because you can't have any meaningful depth in PvE with the framework the core-game offers. The game was clearly targetted at the ultra-"casual" crowd anyway. In that regard, the content needs to be PUG-able to not be completely out of tune with the basic game philosophy and the basic game itself. You can't justify having a game-mode which offers several desirable cosmetics, a lot of lore and major rewards like legendary items which only a vanishingly small audience has access to.

> >

> >

>

> We'll the combat system is sophisticated enough that the difference between newbies and veteran is of ridicilous magnitudes

 

That's not the combat system, that's the lack of a healthy difficulty-curve in basic game content and the lack of decent gameplay-guides. Open World and Story are so easy that you don't have to learn anything about stat-combinations and decent build-options. Performance simply doesn't matter in most parts of the game anyway. If it would, the situation would be different. The combat system in GW2 is extremely shallow in comparison to other MMORPGs or even GW1. You already can reach 10+k DPS just by Auto Attacks if you're using a decent build and decent gear.

[yann.1946]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > The game wasn't made for sophisticated PvE to begin with - the combat system is far too shallow to ever do that anyway. Why do you think most raid-encounters rely on gimmicky stuff or certain classes/class-skills (which is also a reason for lacking accessibility)? Because you can't have any meaningful depth in PvE with the framework the core-game offers. The game was clearly targetted at the ultra-"casual" crowd anyway. In that regard, the content needs to be PUG-able to not be completely out of tune with the basic game philosophy and the basic game itself. You can't justify having a game-mode which offers several desirable cosmetics, a lot of lore and major rewards like legendary items which only a vanishingly small audience has access to.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > We'll the combat system is sophisticated enough that the difference between newbies and veteran is of ridicilous magnitudes

>

> That's not the combat system, that's the lack of a healthy difficulty-curve in basic game content and the lack of decent gameplay-guides. Open World and Story are so easy that you don't have to learn anything about stat-combinations and decent build-options. Performance simply doesn't matter in most parts of the game anyway. If it would, the situation would be different. The combat system in GW2 is extremely shallow in comparison to other MMORPGs or even GW1. You already can reach 10+k DPS just by Auto Attacks if you're using a decent build and decent gear.

 

Shallow in what regard then? I really would appreciate examples.

[Daniel.5428]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> That's not the combat system, that's the lack of a healthy difficulty-curve in basic game content and the lack of decent gameplay-guides. Open World and Story are so easy that you don't have to learn anything about stat-combinations and decent build-options. Performance simply doesn't matter in most parts of the game anyway. If it would, the situation would be different. The combat system in GW2 is extremely shallow in comparison to other MMORPGs or even GW1. You already can reach 10+k DPS just by Auto Attacks if you're using a decent build and decent gear.

 

You are right, but it would be hard to change the combat system. You cannot make it Hack'n'Slash with combos for example like in other mmos (blade&soul for example). I personally like the combat system. The old classy target&attack (typical for WoW and other old mmos) with some H&S elements like independent dodge, getting out of enemies' range of attack etc. Is entertaining. You can make it more dynamic by making the enemies more dynamic. I don't know if you tried the new W6 largos bros but they are a very dynamic boss, you have to be like a cat during the fight.

 

 

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> locking things behind stuff like WvW and fractals is bad in general, i wanted to do a legendary but the moment i saw fractals mentioned i gave up.

> IMO a legendary is something of a journey only in open worlds, something you need to chase by going to places you would normally never go.

> fractals are mission instances that has nothing to do with a journey, WvW is just a PvP arena with monsters and nothing else.

 

Isnt that kinda contradicting?

By "locking" legendarys behind fractals/raids, you have to go to places most people would never go to?

 

I dont think a legendary should be easily obtainable by most people because it devalues prestige the item holds.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > The game wasn't made for sophisticated PvE to begin with - the combat system is far too shallow to ever do that anyway. Why do you think most raid-encounters rely on gimmicky stuff or certain classes/class-skills (which is also a reason for lacking accessibility)? Because you can't have any meaningful depth in PvE with the framework the core-game offers. The game was clearly targetted at the ultra-"casual" crowd anyway. In that regard, the content needs to be PUG-able to not be completely out of tune with the basic game philosophy and the basic game itself. You can't justify having a game-mode which offers several desirable cosmetics, a lot of lore and major rewards like legendary items which only a vanishingly small audience has access to.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > We'll the combat system is sophisticated enough that the difference between newbies and veteran is of ridicilous magnitudes

>

> That's not the combat system, that's the lack of a healthy difficulty-curve in basic game content and the lack of decent gameplay-guides. Open World and Story are so easy that you don't have to learn anything about stat-combinations and decent build-options. Performance simply doesn't matter in most parts of the game anyway. If it would, the situation would be different. The combat system in GW2 is extremely shallow in comparison to other MMORPGs or even GW1. You already can reach 10+k DPS just by Auto Attacks if you're using a decent build and decent gear.

 

Although the combat system and combat encounters are not the same thing, I do want to point out that they are irrevocably connected to each other. I agree that performance matters little in most of the game. I wouldn't say it doesn't matter even just for the sake of the duration of combat which is important to the experience and how often people die perhaps.

 

What I also see is that there are events that require just one single more thought to figure out. For example there is this event where there is a Risen ship close to the shore and you have to destroy it but Risen troops are landing and destroying the catapults and stuff. So there's a few people battling the Risen troops and no one is manning the remaining catapult. So I go there and shoot the ship but time is limited and this catapult does very little damage so I swim over and start attacking the ship directly, which does more damage but I got there too late to kill the ship on time. In the meantime these guys are still just fighting troops on the shore oblivious to the fact that they are not completing the event objective.

 

So that's where I agree with you that there is a low difficulty in a lot of combat but when you have a lot of players like that, you can't make it very difficult.

 

On the other hand though the more difficult content like fractals and raids I suppose should be much more challenging. But what I understand from players who post about fractals and raids, that they're about the same like dungeon bosses. For raids in particular I've seen more than once that people said raid bosses are basically dungeon bosses with a timer.

 

And that leads me to the following point. Is it also because of the combat system that the encounters are not more complex? Can you really do much in a game that doesn't have the trinity roles but all dps/support classes with dodge when it comes to difficulty? I mean beyond the usual 150 circles of death and lots of HP and OP damage attacks? My feeling is they can't really do too much with that and that's why I found this new sniper fight a breath of fresh air since it was at least something different in how it was done, although it was still a boss with a good amount of HP and an OP ability that you have to avoid. Hide instead of dodge this time.

 

It just occurs to me that trinity games do have more intricate boss fights and I'm having a hard time imagining how some of those mechanics would work in GW2. I dunno, I don't say I've got it all figured out but either they can't make fights more complex because of the limitations of the combat/class system or they don't want to.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > locking things behind stuff like WvW and fractals is bad in general, i wanted to do a legendary but the moment i saw fractals mentioned i gave up.

> > IMO a legendary is something of a journey only in open worlds, something you need to chase by going to places you would normally never go.

> > fractals are mission instances that has nothing to do with a journey, WvW is just a PvP arena with monsters and nothing else.

>

> Isnt that kinda contradicting?

> By "locking" legendarys behind fractals/raids, you have to go to places most people would never go to?

>

> I dont think a legendary should be easily obtainable by most people because it devalues prestige the item holds.

 

you can buy them, just save up enough and you can buy the legendary, devaluing the process in one swoop.

better yet, at this point anyone who doesn't have a gen 1 legendary ether has absolutely no access to it or doesn't care about it ether way, removing it's value.

[phs.6089]

You know what I'm missing? **Crit-heals.** I know it might take lots of work to rework healing power to crit or might not. But boy, It was fun to sacrifice some of your defenses for a chance to heal at least twice more. Kept you on toys.

[Kodokuna Akuma.9570]

> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> > @"Kodokuna Akuma.9570" said:

> > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> > > Honestly fractals feel bland and generic. They're supposed to be an asura crew's research project and yet you learn next to nothing about the places you visit. And then the fractals are too short to learn anything about the NPCs you encounter.

> >

> > I would disagree on that, well some fractals are short and offer little to no story or w/e but others do offer insites into places, the sunspear one could be an example or the chaos -> nightmare -> mistlock

> >

>

> I agree that the chaos -> nightmare -> mistlock fractals have a nice little story-chain explaining a bit more about what the fractals are and who else is interested in them. However especially for older fractals there are so many possibilities to explore Tyria's rich lore and history, and they're all wasted.

>

> Urban Battleground:

> Who was Dulfy?

> Which city are you fighting in?

> What influence did this battle have on the human-charr war?

> When did this battle take place?

>

> Aquatic Ruins:

> Who built these structures in the first place?

> Why are they now flooded? Or were they always flooded?

> Why do we have to kill the big Jellyfish?

>

> Deepstone:

> How did the dwarves live?

> What was their society like?

> What purpose did this place serve before it was abadoned?

>

> Even the fractals that were taken straight from LS1 dungeons are completely taken out of context and tell new players who missed LS1 next to nothing about what happened. It feels like we only have these fractals in order to have these fractals.

 

I could see what your going with there quite alot of the older fractals are like that and while I did mention that not all of them needed to be it would of been nice, but really I net rarely goes back to touch up old content unless its for bugs or quality of life.

 

The main thing is that the fractals anet is currently producing and will continue to produce are able to, and I think you will agree they seem to be hitting the nail on the head so far.

 

Not to mention, who knows maybe we will get more on the dwarves n the like in future fractals, or even on some of the older ones.

Wouldnt it be nice if we got the odd other fractal on the war of ascalon, maybe from the humans perspective or the like.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > The game wasn't made for sophisticated PvE to begin with - the combat system is far too shallow to ever do that anyway. Why do you think most raid-encounters rely on gimmicky stuff or certain classes/class-skills (which is also a reason for lacking accessibility)? Because you can't have any meaningful depth in PvE with the framework the core-game offers. The game was clearly targetted at the ultra-"casual" crowd anyway. In that regard, the content needs to be PUG-able to not be completely out of tune with the basic game philosophy and the basic game itself. You can't justify having a game-mode which offers several desirable cosmetics, a lot of lore and major rewards like legendary items which only a vanishingly small audience has access to.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > We'll the combat system is sophisticated enough that the difference between newbies and veteran is of ridicilous magnitudes

> >

> > That's not the combat system, that's the lack of a healthy difficulty-curve in basic game content and the lack of decent gameplay-guides. Open World and Story are so easy that you don't have to learn anything about stat-combinations and decent build-options. Performance simply doesn't matter in most parts of the game anyway. If it would, the situation would be different. The combat system in GW2 is extremely shallow in comparison to other MMORPGs or even GW1. You already can reach 10+k DPS just by Auto Attacks if you're using a decent build and decent gear.

>

> Shallow in what regard then? I really would appreciate examples.

 

Ok, let us start with the type of the combat system we have then: a very crippled hybrid between action combat and classical tab targetting. It's crippled because it only takes little parts of each system and throws them together. While it kinda works, it's not really sophisticated.

 

In regard of tab targetting: You only have a very rudimentary (one way) targetting-system in which (only) you target your foe. There is no real two-way-tab-targetting in which you could see which ally is targetted by your foe. That's why we need these stupid circles with arrows in raids to see who is targetted which takes a lot of potential depth out of how you could design bosses - especially considering that we don't have a proper aggro-system in GW2 and also considering that there is no single-target-healing which requires healers to target the ally who should be healed. That already removes a lot of potential teamplay. In regard of action combat: Due to having a - albeit very crippled - tab-targetting-system, you also have its disadvantages. That first and foremost are projectile-attacks which you can't evade with movement alone; that's even a problem with melee-attacks.

 

Then you have the skill- and build-options: Your build-options are rather limited. Several traits are very much useless or only useful in niche-scenarios. You also have a very low number of available skills which leads to really restrictive gameplay. You have so much stuff stacked on single skills: damage, healing/life leech, boons, cc. There is so very few player choice. You have too much stuff in abundance anyway: There's too much cc in the game and far too many boons. There is so very few situational use when you can apply boons permanently. Then you have the way boons are applied. You can't really play with the melee/ranged dps concept. That invalidates the concept of "risk and reward" since basically everything is melee. Stuff like combo flields and blast finishers have become useless and are only really used by real tryhards. You have far too much AoE or at least PBAoE-Damage for Cleave, making meaningful add-mechanics almost impossible. Just look at bosses like KC as example.

 

Do I even have to continue?

 

Combat is still fun though, but we should accept that the combat system itself is shallow and very restrictive, thus raids almost always have a gimmicky feeling about them since you either have some special action stuff or they are designed with certain combat-aspects in mind which makes certain classes very powerful at certain encounters.

 

> @"Daniel.5428" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > That's not the combat system, that's the lack of a healthy difficulty-curve in basic game content and the lack of decent gameplay-guides. Open World and Story are so easy that you don't have to learn anything about stat-combinations and decent build-options. Performance simply doesn't matter in most parts of the game anyway. If it would, the situation would be different. The combat system in GW2 is extremely shallow in comparison to other MMORPGs or even GW1. You already can reach 10+k DPS just by Auto Attacks if you're using a decent build and decent gear.

>

> You are right, but it would be hard to change the combat system. You cannot make it Hack'n'Slash with combos for example like in other mmos (blade&soul for example). I personally like the combat system. The old classy target&attack (typical for WoW and other old mmos) with some H&S elements like independent dodge, getting out of enemies' range of attack etc. Is entertaining. You can make it more dynamic by making the enemies more dynamic. I don't know if you tried the new W6 largos bros but they are a very dynamic boss, you have to be like a cat during the fight.

 

Hack 'n Slash in Blade & Soul? Blade & Soul's combat system is by dimensions more sophisticated than GW2s. In fact, GW2 feels a lot more Hack 'n Slash than Blade & Soul, especially if you consider the aforementioned arguments. The problem in GW2 is also that dodging is mostly the only and main method of damage mitigation, especially since ArenaNet is overdoing it with AoE-spam to make content artificially more "difficult" and shiny. The problem is that several classes are not very dynamic, Staff-Weaver is a prime example. Why do you think Chrono is the most OP tank in this game? Because it can tank while standing totally still with no movement at all. More "dynamic" bosses only lead to class-favoritism. Your largos twins example is just that: Mirage is so utterly OP there that we already see only Mirage as pure DPS in the LFG. I don't have to move at all as Mirage. So yeah, I guess I'm like a cat at that boss, being lazy and sleeping almost 24/7.