Athrenn.9468 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Well, I don't want to write too much of a preamble but for anyone who is interested in reading the Flameseeker Prophecies in full, here it is! FInally after 12 years we can finally read it for ourselves, which is pretty amazing if you ask me. I've always wanted to know what the prophecies actually said beyond the few lines that we heard here and there. The formatting is pretty much exactly how you would read the verses from the three scrolls outside the Hall of Ascension. Scroll 1, Verse 1 In the midst of turmoil, a voice will be raised The voice of a king, his words a plea He will be heard, and change will come swiftly The beginning of peace, but the foundation of greed That will not emerge until his life and death are legend Scroll 1, Verse 2 Guilds outlawed; the world becomes smaller Centuries pass unmarred by the blight of war Empires thrive in the balance, but conquest is enticing And what was stolen will be reclaimed in blood Scroll 1, Verse 3 The battlefield gives purpose to a man with vision The voice of desperation, his words a command For every life saved, thousands will be lost In the years that bear the mark of his rise to power Scroll 1, Verse 4 For three nights, the sky will rain fire The cause will appear both known and unknown Heralding the beasts, if beasts they are Destruction and devastation in their wake Scroll 1, Verse 5 A harmony of hands and minds will rise Hard times breed strength and loyalty But they will be overwhelmed, and many will drown Swallowed by a foolish obligation to the gods And the greed of the very powerful Scroll 1, Verse 6 As the three empires feebly resist impending defeat Turning their heads from the curtain that threatens to fall A cataclysmic act of magic will turn the tide of war Sending waves to crash back upon the caster Scroll 1, Verse 7 A terrible, soulless thing will be known Made monstrous by its own words A great hail of crystal and fire will bring destruction Upon great cities across the land Scroll 1, Verse 8 When the nations are overturned by burning wind Faces will be shadowed and unrest kindled Control will surrender to false saviors But their enemy is relentless And victory will seem an unreachable phantom Scroll 1, Verse 9 The sky will open and rain fire upon weary soldiers Good intentions open a doorway to malignance A would-be hero will choose the wrong path His last moments will bring him horrifying clarity Scroll 1, Verse 10 Those who would follow him will not witness his truth They stumble blindly without his sight to guide them The battle is won, though the cost will be far reaching (sic.) And from behind a great veil, a mastermind emerges But clashing steel blocks his path to full dominion Scroll 1, Verse 11 From the west will come the heart of Kryta Two leaders of one blood accept their audience But their words cannot halt events foretold The temples are deserted, and faith is thin And the danger is only growing Scroll 1, Verse 12 A lost relic will bring hope where there is none It will be celebrated as a gift from the gods But the joy comes chained with sorrow As a bloodline is severed by words A son forsaken, a father blind Scroll 1, Verse 13 A sound across the heavens brings healing rain To drown fire and soothe smoldering scars The mouth lies fallow until the final piece is recovered The beasts fall under the sword, but it will not be enough Scroll 1, Verse 14 Too late, the king will repent That he did not see the danger of his adversary His anger and pride will cause a rift Soon, a line severed by words will be severed in truth Scroll 2, Verse 1 Time will pass, and wounds will heal But a sickness is festering beneath Unseen powers seep into the faithful Spreading their influence like poison Scroll 2, Verse 2 The city of the son will again be besieged Holding out hope against the barbaric and the vain It has known hardship and will know hardship again It cannot be saved by found relics and sharp steel The exile holds the key; follow him Scroll 2, Verse 3 A journey will be cut short for one The sun will set And a new son will rise Conflict at the flame Door; he holds the key Scroll 2, Verse 4 From a misguided populace, songs, chants, and demands sound These will be held as gospel by those who did not hear The last revelations of the robed one His followers carry on, unaware of his warnings Scroll 2, Verse 5 The threat of war is spurred by Unseen forces Blood will spill with nefarious purpose A clergy will be exalted and reviled By those who wish to speak with the gods Scroll 2, Verse 6 A treasure will be discovered under sand and sea A relic guarded by Orr for uncounted centuries Its finding will bring the death of its seeker At the hands of a thing that is not alive Scroll 2, Verse 7 The tyrant whose hand drowned his lungs in salt water Will rise again from the depths of the abyss And those he enslaved will not find liberty or rest The dead will walk again, leaving their sunken graves behind them Scroll 2, Verse 8 A stone that time cannot erode bleeds its essence Into the soil of the tangled wilds Dangerous people will use it to manufacture evil Unaware that the foundation of their power is kept there Scroll 2, Verse 9 When the vessel is coated in blood The souls of the worthy are released Their sacrifice will hold shut the Door But it is destined to be opened Scroll 2, Verse 10 To what wretched torment will innocent lives be delivered? Six will be taken in the defining moment Their souls used up, poorly guarded, betrayed Offered to such horror by the blind scythe Scroll 2, Verse 11 Those who dare oppose the slaughter Will be put to death as martyrs, and then forgotten Those in robes will no longer be monks, zealots, or abbots Resistance will come in the form of clashing blades Scroll 2, Verse 12 When the altar bears the scythe Arced and ready to spill blood Until every soul is reclaimed Those from distant places will remain Unseen Scroll 2, Verse 13 At the moon's highest ascendancy As the season approaches its renewal Plague, famine, and death are wrought from militant hands And for each life stolen, another is needed Scroll 2, Verse 14 From another land comes a new danger Gateways are opened; the dead pass through Secretly, enemies are placed like game pieces And adherents of the Unseen will find sedition against them Scroll 2, Verse 15 At the point of delivery, desperation brings alliances The bird of prey steps into the forefront Spreading wings of friendship, but to ensnare His council (sic.) is taken as wisdom and kindness Scroll 3, Verse 1 A man once revered but without soul and mercy Will stretch his talons across all of Tyria Those who seek audience with the gods Must succeed, or all will be changed Scroll 3, Verse 2 A forgotten race, molded with four arms And the visage of a snake Ally themselves with the soothsayer When they leave the world of men, gods will weep Scroll 3, Verse 3 At the steps of the tombs, danger rises Horrors guard the entrance with vengeance But as day leads and night falls unfalteringly So are the worthy led by their hero Scroll 3, Verse 4 Deep within the Mists, blood will be spilled The Hall will seem unjust to those who are conquered Poison, illusion, and fire will meet plague and steel Glory will not be easily claimed Scroll 3, Verse 5 The fires of a revolution will blaze to life Making a change of reign and centuries The Unseen will move into view Bloodthirsty and no longer bound by machinations Scroll 3, Verse 6 The last dwarf city is besieged by daylight Few can escape the war near the top of the world A fearless woman trades her life for those of the worthy The betrayer will come to justice at the hands of the betrayed Scroll 3, Verse 7 The Unseen war will not cease The robed ones falter, blinded by the strength of their faith A tale begun centuries ago ends at the lip of a mountain But first, the worthy have their own trials to face Scroll 3, Verse 8 Fate will be sealed behind the iron door In the heart of the flame, where this world meets another Those who came to pass before stand vigil Their sacrifice will be undone, their enslavement lifted The truth will be revealed Scroll 3, Verse 9 Because of the dwarves' discord and negligence An opening will be given to the disciples of the Unseen The peaks and valleys of the Shiverpeaks will be painted in blood At this time, the Ascendants will rise, and the way to the Door will be clear Scroll 3, Verse 10 In the dark of night, the beasts will think their gods have sent an omen A light as brilliant as the sun...the fires of the mountain Screams and cries ring out, battles fought with demons of fire and stone The beasts will be touched by their gods, and it will be terrible Scroll 3, Verse 11 Crossing first a great ocean, and then a burning desert The worthy face a journey fraught with peril Stumbling wearily, leaving destruction in their wake Fear opens a Door that should not be opened Scroll 3, Verse 12 When the darkness that travels between words Taking a form that is unknown, smoldering, and frightful Is cast up from behind the opened Door The hands of the worthy will burn the Unseen from Tyria Scroll 3, Verse 13 The worthy, transformed by knowledge and clarity Fleeing down the mountain, but facing pursuit A danger looms, greater than the shambling dead: Living monsters of stone and fire, enraged from imprisonment Scroll 3, Verse 14 At sunrise, events come to a close The keeper and the kept meet on the battlefield The horrors unleashed seem unending The destruction could reach every corner of the world Scroll 3, Verse 15 The bird of prey stands triumphant over his prize At his back, demons from beyond the Door In ages to come, some will remember him with pity Others will curse his name, and they are wise The Lost Verse On the last day of the Season of the Phoenix Tyria is revived again The fire is put out, and the diabolic gathering Is closed off once again, over the bones of the bird of prey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaken.6801 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 A little bit offtopic, but I was quite amused doing this and running around there, while wielding my flamessekers prophecy ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Interesting... and it seems pretty specific as prophecies go. I would have expected it to be a bit more vague - if that (apart from the final verse) was common knowledge, it's surprising that the heroes followed Khilbron so blindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > Interesting... and it seems pretty specific as prophecies go. I would have expected it to be a bit more vague - if that (apart from the final verse) was common knowledge, it's surprising that the heroes followed Khilbron so blindly. That's the odd bit, isn't it? I'm convinced that the full prophecy was never 100% known by anyone aside from Glint or her most trusted attendants because it seems like she was actively manipulating the course of events by selectively revealing different parts of it to different people. She knew that we were traveling with Khilbron and could have warned us of who he was, but obviously didn't want to avert the course of history so that everything could happen "as intended" (I.e. As she envisioned it). For that reason, I think that Glint is a much shadier character than history paints her. She watched from afar as Khilbron opened the gates of Hell and even helped us get there. She foresaw what would happen and used her influence to make it so. In the end, I believe that all she cared about was her legacy and despite it being a noble goal, she wasn't above morally questionable actions to achieve it. This makes Glint a more interesting character in my opinion. Good characters aren't painted in pure black or pure white; someone who has done great things is equally capable of doing some really questionable deeds in pursuit of a noble goal. I'm happy with that outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > Interesting... and it seems pretty specific as prophecies go. I would have expected it to be a bit more vague - if that (apart from the final verse) was common knowledge, it's surprising that the heroes followed Khilbron so blindly. More importantly, what part of the Flameseeker Prophecies did Turai read to believe he was a Chosen destined for Ascension after having felled an undead lich? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Good point. They probably forgot about that when they back-wrote the prophecy (because I'm willing to bet that the original team never wrote out the prophecy in that detail). > @Athrenn.9468 said: > For that reason, I think that Glint is a much shadier character than history paints her. She watched from afar as Khilbron opened the gates of Hell and even helped us get there. She foresaw what would happen and used her influence to make it so. In the end, I believe that all she cared about was her legacy and despite it being a noble goal, she wasn't above morally questionable actions to achieve it. My interpretation is that she foresaw the alternatives as well, and the alternatives were worse. If most of your options result in the destruction of the world and there's one path that can result in saving the world but requires sacrificing millions to get there, and you know _for sure_ that there's no third option that allows you to prevent those millions of deaths... then you go for the route in which _somebody_ survives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > Good point. They probably forgot about that when they back-wrote the prophecy (because I'm willing to bet that the original team never wrote out the prophecy in that detail). > > > @Athrenn.9468 said: > > For that reason, I think that Glint is a much shadier character than history paints her. She watched from afar as Khilbron opened the gates of Hell and even helped us get there. She foresaw what would happen and used her influence to make it so. In the end, I believe that all she cared about was her legacy and despite it being a noble goal, she wasn't above morally questionable actions to achieve it. > > My interpretation is that she foresaw the alternatives as well, and the alternatives were worse. If most of your options result in the destruction of the world and there's one path that can result in saving the world but requires sacrificing millions to get there, and you know _for sure_ that there's no third option that allows you to prevent those millions of deaths... then you go for the route in which _somebody_ survives. > That's an interesting interpretation of the prophecies. You think it's possible that she saw all of the branching possible futures and chose to record only the 'good' ending? I suppose that could work if you wanted a heroic narrative where Glint was good all along. For me, I personally like the idea that the world is full of more nuanced shades of grey where people (even immortal dragons) can do morally questionable things like manipulating civilizations and shaping the world in their image. Conflicts over morality are inherently interesting in my opinion so I think it's fun to think about the possibility of a beloved "good" character having done really shady things for reasons that she believed were just, even if some people would disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 There's a lot of potential for disaster in the events of Guild Wars 1. Even if we don't consider the events of Nightfall and that Prophecies set it up for it to be possible for Abaddon to lose, the story of Prophecies itself gives two outcomes that could be considered likely without Glint's manipulation: Outcome 1: Khilbron (or some other champion of Abaddon) opens the Door of Komalie, with nobody to stop him before he brings the full strength of the titans into Tyria, and Khilbron conquers the world in Abaddon's name. This could be either because the mursaat wouldn't have bothered to defend the Door without the Prophecies allowing Khilbron to just waltz in, or because Khilbron found some other way to defeat the mursaat. Outcome 2: The mursaat are able to hold the Door closed, maintaining a stranglehold on Kryta (or whichever nation they choose to target first), and steadily taking over the world as there is nothing that can stop the mursaat armies. Between these two options, the Flameseeker Prophecies outcome is a 'third option' that still leaves a lot of people dead, but which is better than the most likely alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Of course, *with* her manipulation there would be better options, such as killing Saul so that he never brings the mursaat in (at least in that manner), and killing the Burnt Warband so they never come across the titans thus never spark the Searing, Cataclysm, or launch an assault on Kryta. If she had foreseen the "whole situation" like they just made it to be, she should have foreseen those and thus stop Abaddon's attempts in Tyria dead in its tracks, and stop the mursaat's best chance to get a stranglehold. But this would leave the mursaat still sitting out there, waiting to conquer, and Abaddon would still make other moves later on - and without Devona and co. (and the Ascalonian PC - I still hold to the idea that there were three canon heroes of GW1, one from each origin) becoming heroes, would they have joined in the fight against Shiro and Varesh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 I appreciate the optimism, but I still don't buy the idea that Glint's motives were altruistic. When I read The Legacy (good lord, I have no formatting options on mobile so I'm just going to throw the link in here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Legacy) I get the impression that her driving motivation is to see her legacy come into fruition and for the cycle of extremes to end once and for all. If that is her prime directive, then where does destroying the Mursaat fit in? I believe that they were one of the obstacles that she saw needed to be dealt with before her plans could progress. With the Mursaat in a position of power to the west, her serpentine allies could never move in and build Tarir unopposed. They would probably insist on using her legacy to further their goals, and that would be a difficult threat to deal with. Instead, When Glint saw an opportunity for Khilbron, someone who hated the Mursaat, to unleash the Titans and destroy them, she took it. In the end, she weighed the sacrifice of an entire race (I.e. the Mursaat) worth it for the preservation of all. Fitting, because the Mursaat deemed the sacrifice of a few humans worth it for the preservation of themselves. The irony is that Glint wasn't above the same methods of involuntary sacrifice. She was just more subtle about it, and that's why history remembers her as a hero and the Mursaat as villains. They both played the same game, and Glint won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 @"Konig Des Todes.2086" Yeah, that's a big part of my thinking. She could have prevented a lot of disasters, but without heroes cutting their teeth on the little disasters, would there have been anyone to deal with the big ones? She could have stopped Saul (or showed him what the mursaat were like), but we see in S3E2 that the mursaat were planning on conquering the world, and having them at least start off by doing so behind the scenes may have been a better result than having them remain hidden until they had an unstoppable army of jade constructs. She could have stopped the Vizier, but it might be that someone was destined to open the Door of Komalie sooner or later. Ultimately, Abaddon was building power in the background, and while Glint could have stopped all of his plots to use Tyria to break out, it's possible that all of his plots in Tyria could have been foiled and he still would have eventually built up enough power in the Realm of Torment to smash his way out at full strength. Allowing some of his schemes to work while he was still bound enough to be defeatable might have been better than waiting another thousand years until he had full control of the Realm of Torment. @"Athrenn.9468" I think one distinction is that from the mursaat tablets left behind, the mursaat were planning on conquering the world - and with invisibility and the potential to build an army of devastating constructs, if given the opportunity to fully build up they would have been unstoppable. She's not sacrificing the poor innocent mursaat in order to drive her plans: the mursaat were themselves one of the enemies she was seeking to defend the people of Tyria from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Sorry for possible offtopic but I'm having trouble finding Lost Verse in Augury Rock. Where should I look for it? EDIT: I found it. Just do last scroll second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted September 30, 2017 Author Share Posted September 30, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > I think one distinction is that from the mursaat tablets left behind, the mursaat were planning on conquering the world - and with invisibility and the potential to build an army of devastating constructs, if given the opportunity to fully build up they would have been unstoppable. She's not sacrificing the poor innocent mursaat in order to drive her plans: the mursaat were themselves one of the enemies she was seeking to defend the people of Tyria from. Conquering the world isn't exactly a new concept. Humans have been doing it for centuries and they aren't so innocent either. If Glint had a staunch anti-conquest policy then she should have been all up in everyone's grill and plotting the downfall of humanity. Does anyone honestly believe that they consolidated power over Kryta, Orr, Ascalon, Elona, and Cantha without massive amounts of bloodshed? Of course they killed a bunch of other races and enslaved a few (those centaurs certainly had a beef with the Kournans...) and the charr weren't too pleased when their Khan-ur was assassinated and their families driven from the plains of Ascalon. In the course of history, there are conquerors. That's just what people do to each other and we wouldn't have modern day nation's like Kryta or Vabbi without them. If Glint is selectively siding with the human conquerors over the Mursaat ones then that makes her an ally of our race, not an altruist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Humans aren't exactly unique from that perspective. The original inhabitants of Ascalon were the grawl, for instance, who the charr conquered, and the charr were also fighting the Forgotten before humans invaded Ascalon, so it's entirely possible that the human invasion of Ascalon was, in part, engineered by Glint or the Forgotten to put the charr back in their place... albeit without driving them extinct. Broadly speaking, a bit of fighting between the races is probably something Glint accepts as inevitable. She may prefer that it didn't happen, but the price of allowing free will is that sometimes those whom you allow free will use it for purposes you'd prefer they didn't - although we don't know what she may have been doing behind the scenes to encourage cooperation instead of conflict (Edge of Destiny certainly indicates that she was in favour of the former). Thing is, in none of that fighting did any of the races get to the point where they were so dominant that they could enslave all of the other races with no hope of freedom. The mursaat, on the other hand, were so ahead of everyone else, to the point where special requirements had to be fulfilled in order to fight them at all, that they could have. Worse, the mursaat could have conquered the world, and then left again when the dragons next arose, leaving a mass of cowed ex-slaves with no ability to defend themselves. If you look at Glint's dialogue in Prophecies, there's a point (if you fail the bonus objective) where she indicates that the human race will end if the Prophecies are not fulfilled. Now, whether it was just humans or other races would also have gone extinct in the end is not clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > If you look at Glint's dialogue in Prophecies, there's a point (if you fail the bonus objective) where she indicates that the human race will end if the Prophecies are not fulfilled. Now, whether it was just humans or other races would also have gone extinct in the end is not clear. Glint: "It would be a shame if the end of the human race came about simply because you do not know when you are overmatched." What if this was a reference to the possibility of Glint's legacy failing to reach fruition if the Flameseeker Prophecies didn't play out as she predicted? If the Mursaat were allowed to maintain their dominion over the lands to the west it could be impossible for Tarir to be built and therefore the end of all races would certainly come when the dragons inevitably return, people kill them, and the imbalance of power tears the whole world apart? That would be one plausible explanation for why the prophecies were so important to Glint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Sure, it's possible, but we did also have Abaddon looming in the background at the time... and there's still the element of the mursaat being a powerful force that, from their own tablets, were planning on world domination. You're trying to paint a picture of moral equivalence, when the worst case scenario you can come up with is that "if Glint didn't do this than everybody dies", and there is good reason to think that, directly or indirectly, the mursaat themselves were part of the threat. Likely, if there was any realistic possibility that the mursaat could have been part of the solution rather than part of the problem, Glint would have taken it - given the threat of the Elder Dragons, the mursaat are a pretty powerful asset to destroy out of spite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > Sure, it's possible, but we did also have Abaddon looming in the background at the time... and there's still the element of the mursaat being a powerful force that, from their own tablets, were planning on world domination. > > You're trying to paint a picture of moral equivalence, when the worst case scenario you can come up with is that "if Glint didn't do this than everybody dies", and there is good reason to think that, directly or indirectly, the mursaat themselves were part of the threat. Likely, if there was any realistic possibility that the mursaat could have been part of the solution rather than part of the problem, Glint would have taken it - given the threat of the Elder Dragons, the mursaat are a pretty powerful asset to destroy out of spite. Of course, there's that little small detail that we've managed to learn in the last storyline - that all that Glint did was at least partially (if not fully) influenced by what her Forgotten helpers were telling her. And Mursaat were apparently on bad terms with the Forgotten even before Glint ever entered the picture. One starts to think who exactly have been manipulating whom here, and to what end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 Another interesting thing to note from the [most recent dev AMA]( "most recent dev AMA"): [–]Anet-shwang I was lead and mission designer for GW1, laying out the world. So returning to the Crystal Desert was really nostalgic. I enjoyed revisiting Augury Rock and the Trials of Ascension, missions remember designing. I put in the kids playing Ascension to help tell that GW1 story. And finding a place to put the Flame Seeker Prophecies. The original text was written over a dozen years ago during Prophecies development. It's changed but to finally get it in game was cool. It's no wonder then that this turned out to be my favourite lore drop from the expansion. It certainly feels old and polished, a very rich-sounding piece of text written by the same people who made Prophecies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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