My Criticisms, Issues and Ideas

[Animism.7530]

> it's less of a "it can't happen" and more "it shouldn't happen" also your understanding of the lore seems a bit off

>

> and if you really want monk class back, just change the theme

 

Which part of the lore - I was exaggerating things purposefully in that last comment.

Regarding the lack of belief in the gods - for the one story of GW1, in Elona, which all the gods, and Kormir were present - it is almost unimaginable that the belief would be lost in such a short amount of time. **Think of the area immediately after we defeated Abaddon.** Sure were a lot of people there to congratulate us in defeating a fallen god! Some of these characters are from other continents.

Deception and a political war with Joko, sure. That doesn't eliminate Monks, Ritualists, Paragons and Dervish that may or may not have been present FAR away from Elona, in any of the areas of EOTN, (Asuran, southern Maguuma(coastal)), Northern(Far) Shiverpeaks, Blood Legion homelands, Vanguard areas, or shall we just say, intercontinental travellers.

 

EVERYONE stopped using Spears because of Joko? We hadn't heard of Joko in GW2 until the recent expansion. I don't think I need to explain any further where and how this is incoherent, regarding the use of land-spears, as well as other professions. Even the Kournans used Spears.

The profession, is not the Order.

 

Maybe Monk will get something along the lines of Storm of Judgement! Given its massive graphic predecessor in GW1 Ray of Judgement, was given to the Guardian with a very small graphic, smaller than a torch or a fireball!

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> i'm kinda lazy but the tldr iirc

>

> templates wont happen because UI and spagetti code

>

> monk class won't happen because:

> * new classes won't happen, that's what elite specs are for.

> * monk doesn't make sense on non-human characters and if you retool it to make sense on other classes you'd end up with guardian (with a diffrent armor weight)

> * soft trinity, not holy and even then not everywhere. and ppl don't like the fact that druid and chrono are must haves in raid encounters

>

> 5-man squad: make a party

>

> easy raids:

> * raids are already patheticly easy (compared to other games)

> * most ppl in this game are terrible at it (because the game doesn't tell you how to play)

> * it's more work so raid releases will slow down even more

> * couple of other reasons but i forgot and am lazy

 

I really can't stand these naysaying "this won't happen" posts. It really should be obvious that anything can happen in the future.

 

I heavily, heavily support both build templates and the introduction of the monk class. It's a major theme that's missing in the game and doesn't make sense to to try to shoehorn into an existing class. Trying to pigeon hole every concept into an elite spec forever is not the right way to expand the game. Sometimes a theme is both broad enough and significant enough in the game's lore that it deserves to be a new class, as is the case with the monk.

 

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they change the whole way elite specs are handled in the next year or two because of how much they railroad future class design in a way that's not all that desirable if you extend it out another 2 or 3 expansions. We'll end up with more elite trees than core trees when only one can be used at a time, and that really won't make any sense. My opinion is that after about 3 elite spec options, we should start getting whole new classes in place of new elite specs for existing classes.

[derd.6413]

> @"Animism.7530" said:

> > it's less of a "it can't happen" and more "it shouldn't happen" also your understanding of the lore seems a bit off

> >

> > and if you really want monk class back, just change the theme

>

> Which part of the lore - I was exaggerating things purposefully in that last comment.

> Regarding the lack of belief in the gods - for the one story of GW1, in Elona, which all the gods, and Kormir were present - it is almost unimaginable that the belief would be lost in such a short amount of time.

> Deception and a political war with Joko, sure. That doesn't eliminate Monks, Ritualists, Paragons and Dervish that may or may not have been present FAR away from Elona, in any of the areas of EOTN, (Asuran, southern Maguuma(coastal)), Northern(Far) Shiverpeaks, Blood Legion homelands, Vanguard areas, or shall we just say, intercontinental travellers.

>

> EVERYONE stopped using Spears because of Joko? We hadn't heard of Joko in GW2 until the recent expansion. I don't think I need to explain any further where and how this is incoherent, regarding the use of land-spears, as well as other professions. Even the Kournans used Spears.

> The profession, is not the Order.

 

the thing is most races agree the humen gods exsist(ed), they just didn't see them as something to be worshipped.

 

>Each of the races of Tyria have different attitudes to the gods. Despite their legend of Melandru, the charr view the gods as powerful beings to fight, not worship. The norn recognize the existence of the gods, but consider them an extension of their belief system of nature spirits; they refer to the Six as the "Spirits of Action" and do not call them by their name, but by what they govern. For instance, Balthazar is War and Kormir is Knowledge.[25] The asura consider the gods to be relatively large parts (but parts nonetheless) of their Eternal Alchemy.

 

>The sylvari, having appeared only in 1302 AE and therefore having never actually witnessed the work of the gods, remained unconvinced they existed at all until the recent return of Balthazar made them reconsider their views. The sylvari heading the reclamation of Orr in Siren's Landing have changed their views of the gods and interpret them as powerful royals to the humans rather than godly beings per se while trying to understand the significance behind the term "god" itself.

 

the issue i have is that the human god worship part of the humans and the anti-religious sentiment of the charr is part of their racial identity and introducing religious classes like monk to the game would kill those aspects of the races. (and no, you can't say they're a rare fringe minority when players can make them)

[Animism.7530]

> the thing is most races agree the humen gods exsist(ed), they just didn't see them as something to be worshipped.

 

Scarlet, Nightmare court - Very far from ideals of Sylvari. The former went to Asuran colleges. One extreme led some Sylvari to follow Mordremoth. Another could very easily be written to be "escaped Mordemoth by the grace of Melandru", or something to that effect. Suddenly you can have sylvari religious fanatics, very easily.

Flame legion - shamans.

Norn worship spirits (spirits of nature... with a very physical corresponding deity more powerful than all those spirits) , and they were mostly ignorant of humans in GW1.

From the wiki

"The Spirits of the Wild are the norn's spirit guides. Unlike the Six Human Gods, these Spirits of the Wild do not represent broad-minded concepts like "war" or "nature," but instead embody all the complex virtues and vices of the animals they represent. Likewise, the Spirits are not worshiped in the traditional sense of the word, but rather revered."

 

This does not mean they cannot be interpreted as such by Norn in cases, and it is not unlikely to believe they could be.

The only odd one out here is really the Asura - and they are a fascinating race anyway with their intellect and snobbish behaviour.

It can still be tied in fairly easily using the convoluted explanations of the eternal alchemy, the types of magic, and as a base idea, being a fanatic of one or all aspects.

What I am saying is, there are very real reasons to believe they are to be or could be worshipped by all races. It's more consistent regardless, given some of the more social functions and ideas that are in the races, not even discussed or with an opposing dialogue showing tension. I do not find logic in saying that the Gods cannot be seen as a thing to be worshipped by any of the races, even Quaggans or Skritt if one dropped down from the sky right in front of them.

 

> >Each of the races of Tyria have different attitudes to the gods. Despite their legend of Melandru, the charr view the gods as powerful beings to fight, not worship. The norn recognize the existence of the gods, but consider them an extension of their belief system of nature spirits; they refer to the Six as the "Spirits of Action" and do not call them by their name, but by what they govern. For instance, Balthazar is War and Kormir is Knowledge.[25] The asura consider the gods to be relatively large parts (but parts nonetheless) of their Eternal Alchemy.

 

Reply above perfectly responds to this, before I had actually gotten to it :)

 

> >The sylvari, having appeared only in 1302 AE and therefore having never actually witnessed the work of the gods, remained unconvinced they existed at all until the recent return of Balthazar made them reconsider their views. The sylvari heading the reclamation of Orr in Siren's Landing have changed their views of the gods and interpret them as powerful royals to the humans rather than godly beings per se while trying to understand the significance behind the term "god" itself.

 

Again the ideas above I think can cover this.

 

> the issue i have is that the human god worship part of the humans and the anti-religious sentiment of the charr is part of their racial identity and introducing religious classes like monk to the game would kill those aspects of the races. (and no, you can't say they're a rare fringe minority when players can make them)

 

Revenant, is not a very common class to see on an NPC, as far as I can recall. Unless you count seeing Rytlock multiple times. Furthermore it was taught by one person originally? That would take longer to reach those average numbers than it would for monks. It could have been instant the moment a (later known; fallen) human god was spotted gearing up to take down 'the primal' force of the elder dragons, revered by practically all.

[derd.6413]

> @"Animism.7530" said:

> > the thing is most races agree the humen gods exsist(ed), they just didn't see them as something to be worshipped.

>

> Scarlet, Nightmare court - Very far from ideals of Sylvari. The former went to Asuran colleges.

> Flame legion - shamans.

> Norn worship spirits (spirits of nature... with a very physical corresponding deity more powerful than all those spirits) , and they were mostly ignorant of humans in GW1.

> From the wiki

> "The Spirits of the Wild are the norn's spirit guides. Unlike the Six Human Gods, these Spirits of the Wild do not represent broad-minded concepts like "war" or "nature," but instead embody all the complex virtues and vices of the animals they represent. Likewise, the Spirits are not worshiped in the traditional sense of the word, but rather revered."

>

> This does not mean they cannot be interpreted as such by Norn in cases, and it is not unlikely to believe they could be.

> The only odd one out here is really the Asura - and they are a fascinating race anyway with their intellect and snobbish behaviour.

> It can still be tied in fairly easily using the convoluted explanations of the eternal alchemy, the types of magic, and as a base idea, being a fanatic of one or all aspects.

> What I am saying is, there are very real reasons to believe they are to be worshipped by all races. It's more consistent regardless, given some of the more extreme realistic social functions and ideas that are in the races, not even discussed or with an opposing dialogue showing tension. I do not find logic in saying that the Gods cannot be seen as a thing to be worshipped by any of the races, even Quaggans or Skritt if one dropped down from the sky right in front of them.

>

> > >Each of the races of Tyria have different attitudes to the gods. Despite their legend of Melandru, the charr view the gods as powerful beings to fight, not worship. The norn recognize the existence of the gods, but consider them an extension of their belief system of nature spirits; they refer to the Six as the "Spirits of Action" and do not call them by their name, but by what they govern. For instance, Balthazar is War and Kormir is Knowledge.[25] The asura consider the gods to be relatively large parts (but parts nonetheless) of their Eternal Alchemy.

>

> Reply above perfectly responds to this, before I had actually gotten to it :)

>

> > >The sylvari, having appeared only in 1302 AE and therefore having never actually witnessed the work of the gods, remained unconvinced they existed at all until the recent return of Balthazar made them reconsider their views. The sylvari heading the reclamation of Orr in Siren's Landing have changed their views of the gods and interpret them as powerful royals to the humans rather than godly beings per se while trying to understand the significance behind the term "god" itself.

>

> Again the ideas above I think can cover this.

>

> > the issue i have is that the human god worship part of the humans and the anti-religious sentiment of the charr is part of their racial identity and introducing religious classes like monk to the game would kill those aspects of the races. (and no, you can't say they're a rare fringe minority when players can make them)

>

> Revenant, is not a very common class to see on an NPC, as far as I can recall. Unless you count seeing Rytlock multiple times. Furthermore it was taught by one person originally? That would take longer to reach those average numbers than it would for monks. It could have been instant the moment a (later known; fallen) human god was spotted gearing up to take down 'the primal' force of the elder dragons, revered by practically all.

 

you couldn't have missed the point more but i see you're not intrested in changing your mind, good day sir

 

[Animism.7530]

> you couldn't have missed the point more but i see you're not intrested in changing your mind, good day sir

 

This comment is lacking decorum. If you want to continue the discussion at some point - feel free.

[Ardid.7203]

Template Builds

Yes, we need them, Anet said they will try, but it seems its not easy or very relevant for them right now.

 

Monk

I'm sure there will be an Elite Spec covering this lore/gameplay style. Probably a Guardian spec.

No, there is not going to be a whole new Profession just for this, its not needed and don't make sense.

I'm not speaking for Anet, but I can read the signals, believe me.

[Animism.7530]

> Monk

> I'm sure there will be an Elite Spec covering this lore/gameplay style. Probably a Guardian spec.

> No, there is not going to be a whole new Profession just for this, its not needed and don't make sense.

> I'm not speaking for Anet, but I can read the signals, believe me.

 

I think the best answer to this is from some others in this thread, regarding future elite specialisations, professions, and the impact new releases have on the older specialisations.

 

I wouldn't say I would be surprised if Guardian had a new specialisation along those lines. Though I think it's better saved now for the new profession idea. Monk core - Ritualist/Dervish/Paragon elite specialisation. Could have all, but Paragon could potentially be given to Guardian I suppose. Perhaps Revenant could be given Ritualist to give it some more presence. It could be done a few ways.

 

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Template Builds

> Yes, we need them, Anet said they will try, but it seems its not easy or very relevant for them right now.

>

> Monk

> I'm sure there will be an Elite Spec covering this lore/gameplay style. Probably a Guardian spec.

> No, there is not going to be a whole new Profession just for this, its not needed and don't make sense.

> I'm not speaking for Anet, but I can read the signals, believe me.

 

It makes a lot more sense adding it as an new profession than it does trying to thematically shoehorn it into an existing profession.

[Ardid.7203]

- They already have 3 light, 3 medium and 3 heavy professions. They said this is an even situation they were looking for.

- They have said creating the Elite Specs was a way to streamline the addition of new ways to play and the balancing process for the game professions.

- They have directly said they expect to not add more professions for the time being, making instead only more elite specs.

- They have "monk" themes already incorporated on various places of the base Guardian and the Daredevil.

- They have done similar things with lots of other "beloved" GW1 suff, simply introducing it as references or details within the story, lore or side-mechanics, not generating anything as big as a complete new profession.

- Explaining how a Guardian (or any other class, in fact) can develop "monk-style" features is not hard at all, you can make it just with a single and short storyline.

- They have made some very "shoehorned" elite specs already. They even made the whole Revenant profession without ever explaining how it fits into to the personal story. So story hardly has any weight on their gameplay choices.

- In the same way you want a new monk profession, there are other people who want another kind of profession. And also plenty of people that prefers Anet continues developing only elite specs. Choosing monk over all the other alternatives seems unlikely.

- GW2 is not GW1.

 

For a single reference on previous monk/martial arts thoughts: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48293/a-martial-arts-monk-elite-spec-and-what-profession-should-get-it

[Overlord RainyDay.2084]

> @"Animism.7530" said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > @"Ralistu.1965" said:

> > > some of us have been kitten near begging for a dervish... you know what they did... there are dervish NPCs running around instead (and paragon too i might add). deal with it

> > We already have a dervish, they just draw power from generalized legendary figures instead of human-specific gods and call themselves "revenants" now.

>

> I'm not sure I find them any more comparable than Guardian and Monk/Paragon. Minor similarities, but guardian doesn't offer any unique support like paragons did, and likewise with the case of monks. As far as I can tell, the only similarity between Revenant and Dervish, is the worship of figures? Rytlock 'discovered' this in the mists? Thematically, these two aren't even comparable aside from the former point. Combat-wise, I also see no similarities, and I see no reason why Legendary figures need replace the Gods, when the most prominent skills only transform you into an avatar of a god.

 

Revenant and Dervish actually have quite a bit similar mechanically. Large amounts of cleave and AoE, melee focus (Hammer is the only ranged weapon in the core class), and a mix of spreading conditions to enemies and self condition cleanse. Skills with upkeep costs are a key feature of both classes, and herald brought in even more dervish mechanics by adding "enchantments" with end effects like dervishes had.

 

With guardian, you can tell just by the fact that they share so many skill names (Symbol of Wrath, Banish, Holy Strike, Ray of Judgement, Shield of Absorption, Shield of Judgement, Spear of Light, Contemplation of Purity, Judge's intervention, Smite Condition) that guardian is the replacement for the monk class. The reason why guardian got the full spellcaster weapon set despite being a heavily armored defender, is that they're the lost 4th spellcaster class. Guardian even took the monk's color (blue)and iconography (The ankh symbol appears on starter guardian gear). It has eaten the monk whole, moved into its house and collected it's tax return check at this point.

[Animism.7530]

> Revenant and Dervish actually have quite a bit similar mechanically. Large amounts of cleave and AoE, melee focus (Hammer is the only ranged weapon in the core class), and a mix of spreading conditions to enemies and self condition cleanse. Skills with upkeep costs are a key feature of both classes, and herald brought in even more dervish mechanics by adding "enchantments" with end effects like dervishes had.

 

Some of those descriptions can also apply to monks (enchantments) and warriors respectively. There are similarities, sure, and in this sense, revenant may be closer to dervish, than a guardian is to a monk, though both are missing the key distinguishing elements (scythes and healing). I really don't think this alters the possibility of a dervish specialisation (or profession, I suppose).

 

> With guardian, you can tell just by the fact that they share so many skill names (Symbol of Wrath, Banish, Holy Strike, Ray of Judgement, Shield of Absorption, Shield of Judgement, Spear of Light, Contemplation of Purity, Judge's intervention, Smite Condition) that guardian is the replacement for the monk class.

 

If it's meant as a replacement, then it has certainly failed to bring something unique and valuable to the meta. The class which would have been best at healing and/or protective skills, is... not.

 

>The reason why guardian got the full spellcaster weapon set despite being a heavily armored defender, is that they're the lost 4th spellcaster class. Guardian even took the monk's color (blue)and iconography (The ankh symbol appears on starter guardian gear). It has eaten the monk whole, moved into its house and collected it's tax return check at this point.

 

Another symbol could be used. I don't see how having used the iconic ankh symbol would destroy all possibility of a Monk class. Nor would the original colour. Ritualist had a shade of blue-green/turquoise.

 

 

 

[Overlord RainyDay.2084]

> @"Animism.7530" said:

> > With guardian, you can tell just by the fact that they share so many skill names (Symbol of Wrath, Banish, Holy Strike, Ray of Judgement, Shield of Absorption, Shield of Judgement, Spear of Light, Contemplation of Purity, Judge's intervention, Smite Condition) that guardian is the replacement for the monk class.

>

> If it's meant as a replacement, then it has certainly failed to bring something unique and valuable to the meta. The class which would have been best at healing and/or protective skills, is... not.

 

It used to be though. When GW2 first came out, guardian had more support options than other classes. Guardian had more ways to hand out protection and aegis than anyone else, and only water ele had more ways to give regeneration. Originally, they were the masters of preventing damage to allies and pretty good at healing, though back in the vanilla GW2 days, they were still holding to the dream of "no dedicated healers or supports", so they had to dish out damage too. It's only after years of skill changes, trait reworks, and new especs changing the roles and making the boons more evenly distributed that guardians have lost their "teamwide damage mitigation" crown.

 

> Some of those descriptions can also apply to monks (enchantments) and warriors respectively. There are similarities, sure, and in this sense, revenant may be closer to dervish, than a guardian is to a monk, though both are missing the key distinguishing elements (scythes and healing). I really don't think this alters the possibility of a dervish specialisation (or profession, I suppose).

 

I'll admit, scythes are an omission, just having them as staves always felt like a cop-out to me, but I don't think revenants lack healing. Dervishes never had a massive amount of healing, while Revenants have an entire legend dedicated to healing, and several healing skills distributed throughout the other legends and weapon skills.