MESMER-ELUSIVE MIND NERF- Are you Happy now?

[mortrialus.3062]

Please change Elusive Mind into this:

 

"Dodging removes 1 condition. Mirage Cloak allows the Mirage to run at full speed while strafing or backpedaling while active."

 

 

[FaboBabo.3581]

Gosh just remove the trait.

Why are most of u guys so fanatic about the stun/cleanse - part.

We can entirely scrap it and make a completely new Trait.

 

I dont want another Stunbreak, and i dont NEED another cleanse.

While the cleanse part could potentially stay, just do something new for the rest.

- Gain boons

- restore endurance

- restore health

- grant barrier

 

There are probably at least 5+ more ideas which arent multifaceted Stunbreaks.

 

Personal preference would be

MC grants Fury and Might

2 sec Fury

2 Stacks Might - long duration

 

without boon durartion i'll bet prestacking 8 Stacks of Might with it would be ok , so roughly 15-20 seconds.

[Vieux P.1238]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Please change Elusive Mind into this:

>

> "Dodging removes 1 condition. Mirage Cloak allows the Mirage to run at full speed while strafing or backpedaling while active."

>

>

 

As a major trait?.. No thx..rather have something else like defy pain

[Reh.5986]

+1 for replacing the trait completely. Right now it's basically a curse that will get you killed. It's completely nonsensical unless you're a masochist. It's almost better to eat a steal or daze spam than risk mis-timing a dodge and shutting yourself down.

[Jables.4659]

> @"Zawn.9647" said:

> not sure if this is a troll post or not - elusive mind is just one of the dozen things that are OP in mesmers...

> hello 587 condi applications? hello stealthing to run away? hello blink,jaunt,portal? hello 4 other mesmers to get visual confusion on your enemies? hello dodge that doesnt interrupt what you're doing? hello invulnerabilities? i can keep going :)

You can literally do that about any class.

 

Ranger: Pets that deal consistent damage without the ranger needing to do anything? multiple stealth sources on cooldowns as low as 12 seconds? 1500 range with incredibly high power damage? Stability, protection, regen, and virtually every good boon consistently? Soulbeast owl/eagle/ect 1200 range 10 sec cd leap along w/ other mobility skills?

 

 

Warrior: 5 sec cd on weapon swapping? Active and passive endure pains? Full counter allowing you to negate an attack whilst giving you boons, dealing massive dmg to enemy in an unblockable form while simultaneously dazing them? Good mobility on dagger, sword, and greatsword? A fucking bubble elite that can single handedly turn the tide of a group fight? A metric fuckton of resistance? Lets be real, I could've stopped at full counter.

 

 

Thief: Access to perma stealth? the ability to literally one shot people while running full glass (the enemy doesn't need to be full glass)? the absolute best mobility in the game? Spammable teleports? Stealth on dodge? 1500 range rifle that allows you to wipe entire groups of players in a manner that requires almost zero mechanical skill?

 

I think I've made my point. Mesmer isn't the problem; Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire is.

 

[derd.6413]

needs more nerfing

[Zawn.9647]

> @"Jables.4659" said:

> > @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > not sure if this is a troll post or not - elusive mind is just one of the dozen things that are OP in mesmers...

> > hello 587 condi applications? hello stealthing to run away? hello blink,jaunt,portal? hello 4 other mesmers to get visual confusion on your enemies? hello dodge that doesnt interrupt what you're doing? hello invulnerabilities? i can keep going :)

> You can literally do that about any class.

>

> Ranger: Pets that deal consistent damage without the ranger needing to do anything? multiple stealth sources on cooldowns as low as 12 seconds? 1500 range with incredibly high power damage? Stability, protection, regen, and virtually every good boon consistently? Soulbeast owl/eagle/ect 1200 range 10 sec cd leap along w/ other mobility skills?

>

>

> Warrior: 5 sec cd on weapon swapping? Active and passive endure pains? Full counter allowing you to negate an attack whilst giving you boons, dealing massive dmg to enemy in an unblockable form while simultaneously dazing them? Good mobility on dagger, sword, and greatsword? A kitten bubble elite that can single handedly turn the tide of a group fight? A metric fuckton of resistance? Lets be real, I could've stopped at full counter.

>

>

> Thief: Access to perma stealth? the ability to literally one shot people while running full glass (the enemy doesn't need to be full glass)? the absolute best mobility in the game? Spammable teleports? Stealth on dodge? 1500 range rifle that allows you to wipe entire groups of players in a manner that requires almost zero mechanical skill?

>

> I think I've made my point. Mesmer isn't the problem; Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire is.

>

 

lol are you serious? i will comment on warrior

 

5 sec on weapon swap - you can still kill me while doing mesmer things

endure pain is physical only... condi mirage still wrecks it

FC is really strong, yes, but you can prevent it from proccing - good mobility that is miles away from ranger, mesmer and thief mobility

bubble is long cd and you can just go to other points

yeah lots of resistance that the mesmer can trigget by using 2 skills with low cooldown, then stealth/blink/portal away and come back when the resistance is over (or never come back if you prefer)

[Vieux P.1238]

Ok, how bout replacing Elusive minds with Fullcounter? it's a perfect trade off.

[Jables.4659]

> @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > @"Jables.4659" said:

> > > @"Zawn.9647" said:

> > > not sure if this is a troll post or not - elusive mind is just one of the dozen things that are OP in mesmers...

> > > hello 587 condi applications? hello stealthing to run away? hello blink,jaunt,portal? hello 4 other mesmers to get visual confusion on your enemies? hello dodge that doesnt interrupt what you're doing? hello invulnerabilities? i can keep going :)

> > You can literally do that about any class.

> >

> > Ranger: Pets that deal consistent damage without the ranger needing to do anything? multiple stealth sources on cooldowns as low as 12 seconds? 1500 range with incredibly high power damage? Stability, protection, regen, and virtually every good boon consistently? Soulbeast owl/eagle/ect 1200 range 10 sec cd leap along w/ other mobility skills?

> >

> >

> > Warrior: 5 sec cd on weapon swapping? Active and passive endure pains? Full counter allowing you to negate an attack whilst giving you boons, dealing massive dmg to enemy in an unblockable form while simultaneously dazing them? Good mobility on dagger, sword, and greatsword? A kitten bubble elite that can single handedly turn the tide of a group fight? A metric fuckton of resistance? Lets be real, I could've stopped at full counter.

> >

> >

> > Thief: Access to perma stealth? the ability to literally one shot people while running full glass (the enemy doesn't need to be full glass)? the absolute best mobility in the game? Spammable teleports? Stealth on dodge? 1500 range rifle that allows you to wipe entire groups of players in a manner that requires almost zero mechanical skill?

> >

> > I think I've made my point. Mesmer isn't the problem; Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire is.

> >

>

> lol are you serious? i will comment on warrior

>

> 5 sec on weapon swap - you can still kill me while doing mesmer things

> endure pain is physical only... condi mirage still wrecks it

> FC is really strong, yes, but you can prevent it from proccing - good mobility that is miles away from ranger, mesmer and thief mobility

> bubble is long cd and you can just go to other points

> yeah lots of resistance that the mesmer can trigget by using 2 skills with low cooldown, then stealth/blink/portal away and come back when the resistance is over (or never come back if you prefer)

 

I'm not going to argue in favor of condition mirage's existence. If I had it my way full condition builds wouldn't even exist in this game. They would be used as non damaging debuffs and supplemental damage. I agree completely that condition mirage is overtuned. The issue I took with your comment is that things like mobility and the ability to use skills while dodging are the very fabric that mirage was woven with. If you took those away, the spec would be useless in every form. Comments like yours are likely what lead to Anet's recent terrible balance decision. Speaking as a WvW player, Mirage has a few balanced builds and a few absurdly broken ones. Instead of addressing those broken builds, Anet gave into the cries about elusive mind being op despite the fact that most broken builds didn't even use the fucking trait. Pretty much every decent Mirage build is slippery. It has good mobility, stealth, evades, ect. That aspect of mirage doesn't make it overpowered on its own. There are still openings in its defenses that can be capitalized on. Greatsword mirage can nearly 100 to 0 people in less than 2 seconds, but its burst is telegraphed and obvious. Its easy to deny the entire burst, pick your moments of attack, and win the fight. Power scepter mirage sacrifices that crazy burst for some extra survivability while still maintaining respectable damage. There are still holes in its defenses to capitalize on, and you don't have to worry about being bursted down in seconds. Once again, its most powerful abilities (Confusing Images, Sword phantasm, mindwrack) can be easily negated. If you took away the mobility and skill use while dodging, both of these specs would be garbage tier. Then you have things like Staff Scepter/Torch Infinite Horizon Mirage and Sword/Pistol Axe/Torch condition mirage. Unlike power builds, they don't have to continually focus on dealing damage to their enemy in order to win and can instead spend the majority of the fight kiting and stealthing while their clones and phantasms overwhelm the enemy with conditions. Its lazy and the game is made worse for their existence. They aren't unbeatable, but the builds that can reliably win against them are generally forced to sacrifice a lot of utility or damage in order to take enough cleanse to survive the onslaught. Nerfing the condition output or the defensive utility of mirage would solve the problem, but one of those options destroys the entire spec whereas the other fixes the problem without causing another. In regards to the Elusive Mind nerf, I do agree that the trait was out of hand, but giving it 6 seconds of exhaustion makes taking it worse than taking no grandmaster trait at all. To make matters worse, the only other options are Infinite Horizon and the bleed on dodge/+20% condi duration while bleeding trait (both geared towards condition mirage). Giving the stun break on EM an icd or removing and replacing the trait entirely would've been far better options.

 

 

TLDR: Condition mirage is broken but nerfing Mirages defensive utility isn't the answer.

[Aslakh.3072]

@Jables.4659

I was going to stay out of any debate about pvp and wvw since I don't go into them often enough to be an expert but alot of your post is rediculous. Condition mirage is not even close to being the strongest mirage set up as pure condition is too easily stopped by good condition clear. It's pretty clear that hybrid works alot better than pure condition. The statement "If I had it my way full condition builds wouldn't even exist in this game." goes along way to showing your bias, wanting to remove playstyles other people enjoy just because you prefer direct damage.

 

"Unlike power builds, they don't have to continually focus on dealing damage to their enemy in order to win and can instead spend the majority of the fight kiting and stealthing while their clones and phantasms overwhelm the enemy with conditions." You act here like leaving your clones to auto attack is going to overwhelm an oponent with conditions here but in reality your application of conditions is whats important, it's why infinant horizon that increases your clones condition generation is nice but not neccersary. You don't seem to understand how conditions work so I'll explain it to you. Someone using power will deal 1000 damage while someone using conditions will deal 100 damage + 900 condition damage over time. If you stop attacking to evade you lose all aplication just like a power build.

 

"Its lazy and the game is made worse for their existence." Nothing needs to be said here but no. Whether or not mirage is overtuned or not, its existence would and is not a problem, It being too strong would be the only problem it would have.

 

"Nerfing the condition output or the defensive utility of mirage would solve the problem, but one of those options destroys the entire spec whereas the other fixes the problem without causing another." We all know what your implying but lets outright state where your wrong. Nerfing the condition output would achieve nothing because power mirage is just as strong. No complaints would stop and people dying to mirage would still die, just people would have lost a viable playstyle for zero benefit for anyone. Nerfing the defensive utility of mirage is indeed liable to either not make enough difference or destroy the spec I can agree with you there, balancing is hard.

 

TLDR: We're not in a condi meta anymore and blaming mirages strength on conditions is not going to work.

[ZhouX.8742]

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > > > No, that part is fine. I think they need the condi cleanse. Stunbreak on dodge is stupid

> > > > > Plethora of aoe CC (with some with a duration >= 2 sec.) is stupid.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Then we should nerf that too. The big aoe CC offender right now is holosmith IMO. Mesmer has tons of ways to fight CC though..

> > >

> > > Yes, like we all know that your main DH is well balance & has no need to be nerfed in any way.

> >

> > Please enlighten me if DH is not balanced in some way... I can't remember the last time I saw DH being used to the same extent Mesmer has been for PvP. No one has ever used DH competitively... It's just a niche fun to play elite spec, that many people laugh at when they face

>

> Don't matter. It's just funny to watch you on the fence when we call on your DH main a broken class. See you don't like it huh?

 

"When we call on your DH main a broken class" ... Who says DH is broken nowadays? You say "we" as if there's a massive collective calling for DH nerfs in 2018 .. Lol , it's a meme build at this point, but it has fun mechanics so people enjoy playing it. Stop trying to make something out of nothing.

 

People get defensive about mesmer, because for many years now mesmer has actually been busted in various ways - they'll nerf something, then make something absolutely ridiculous... Chrono tank to mirage ... It's always been the same with mesmer.

 

He doesn't need to get defensive when YOU (not we) say DH is broken, because you'd have to be horrendous at PvP to lose to one with most classes. You saying DH is broken literally means nothing, it's not even getting defensive , it's just laughing at anybody saying it is.

 

He also asked you to point out some things that would even make it on the same level of busted as mesmer, you responded with "Don't matter.. It's just funny.." - you immediately lose any kind of credibility responding with that, because you can't point out anything, because there isn't anything to point out. You just wanted to try and make a point at people defending their class but failed horribly.

[Isle of Stars.3049]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> NOPE

> Mirage cloak needs the nerf. It's like trying to describe color to a blind person when discussing mesmer with the mains or devs.

>

> The thief devs know whats up. Let them make the nerfs and see how everyone gets by next season

 

 

[Jables.4659]

@"Aslakh.3072" You don't play pvp or wvw often, yet you believe you understand how the meta works within those game modes? If you truly believe that condition mirage is in an okay state you are deluded. As someone with 9k hours on Mesmer, 90% of them spent in wvw, I understand perfectly well how it functions with Power, Hybrid, and condition. As far as wvw is concerned, condition mirage is undoubtedly the setup that has the most favorable matchups across the board. Most builds in wvw simply aren't capable of winning against it 1v1 assuming the mirage is even half-way decent (Its fortunate that most condition mirage players are garbage tier). As I said in the previous post, I am perfectly aware of the fact that builds with a lot of condition cleanse do well against it, but the condition output is so high that most builds in the game are not capable of out cleansing Infinite Horizon alone on a scepter/staff setup. Don't worry, I'm not advocating for the removal of your precious pve condi build. Balance split between pvp and pve game modes are a thing.

 

I assume you went on about the hybrid mirage thing because the pve dps meta for mirage is Vipers, but that's essentially just a glass cannon condition dps build that uses power because it doesn't need any defensive stats. Hybrid in wvw is usually just something people run so they can claim they aren't full condition, but running full vipers/sinister is still a full condition build, it just happens to have some power. There are hybrid builds that I would consider respectable, but those aren't the issue.

[TwiceDead.1963]

They missed the mark. Mirage Cloak is the problem.

[Aslakh.3072]

@Jables.4659 Yes I know enough about pvp and wvw to know that condition mirage is no more overtuned than power or hybrid and that its not the favoured set. No I didnt mistake anything with Viper in pve lol. If your not advocating the removal of condition builds in pvp and pve then theres no need to bring up that you want them deleted. Balance splits between pvp and pve gamemodes are indeed a thing to some degree, I know.

 

"Hybrid in wvw is usually just something people run so they can claim they aren't full condition, but running full vipers/sinister is still a full condition build" Trailblazer is full condition, as is dire. Viper is indeed more condition than power, i'll give you that but nobody is running a viper set with a mix of condition and power traits and weapons and then calling it hybrid to be deceptive lol.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece and you've said yours. Clearly neither of us is going to convince the other and this is somewhat off topic so I'm going to stop my end of this discussion now that i've said my piece.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Jables.4659" said:

>I assume you went on about the hybrid mirage thing because the pve dps meta for mirage is Vipers, but that's essentially just a glass cannon condition dps build that uses power because it doesn't need any defensive stats

Doesnt need...So getting killed by 2 hits means doesnt need defensive stats? No wonder they die to few ranger autos for 10k from 2000 range

You complaint about wvw? Go to wvw section and cry there a river . No one care for your wvw balance hence why 20k backstabs with no malice,2000 range lb autos for 10k,fc 8k and list goes on . (Also been fun to see thief with new daggerstorm troll 20 ppl with perma evade)

Almost every post is not even related to EM . Just endless tears how you getting farmed by full glass mesmers that die literally to few hits even after everyone got tons of cleanses from runes/sigil of cleansing .

 

[Vieux P.1238]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Jables.4659" said:

> >I assume you went on about the hybrid mirage thing because the pve dps meta for mirage is Vipers, but that's essentially just a glass cannon condition dps build that uses power because it doesn't need any defensive stats

> Doesnt need...So getting killed by 2 hits means doesnt need defensive stats? No wonder they die to few ranger autos for 10k from 2000 range

> You complaint about wvw? Go to wvw section and cry there a river . No one care for your wvw balance hence why 20k backstabs with no malice,2000 range lb autos for 10k,fc 8k and list goes on . (Also been fun to see thief with new daggerstorm troll 20 ppl with perma evade)

> Almost every post is not even related to EM . Just endless tears how you getting farmed by full glass mesmers that die literally to few hits even after everyone got tons of cleanses from runes/sigil of cleansing .

>

 

I got nothing to add to this that has not been said.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Seems like The General answer for the question is ; No , they weren't happy back then.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> Seems like The General answer for the question is ; No , they weren't happy back then.

 

And they still aren't.

The qq will continue, there is already one new mes hate thread on pvp.

[Vieux P.1238]

The things is with qq players is that they keep complaining and having mez, mirage, Chrono nerfed under the assomption it's over powered. When it's actually no more powerful then any other classes in terms of Direct or condi damage. They'l keep on complaining about that no matter how many nerfs Anet provides when the real issue, is targeting the right mesmer & not the clones. The class is made to confuse enemies with clones. & it does. & players are qq about it cuz they keep bursting the wrong target. QQ players don't want a nerf, they want a free lunch when it comes to mesmers. So no clones, no phantasm or anything that can confuse qq's with the wrong target. Otherwise they will keep complaining.

[Isle of Stars.3049]

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> The things is with qq players is that they keep complaining and having mez, mirage, Chrono nerfed under the assomption it's over powered. When it's actually no more powerful then any other classes in terms of Direct or condi damage. They'l keep on complaining about that no matter how many nerfs Anet provides when the real issue, is targeting the right mesmer & not the clones. The class is made to confuse enemies with clones. & it does. & players are qq about it cuz they keep bursting the wrong target. QQ players don't want a nerf, they want a free lunch when it comes to mesmers. So no clones, no phantasm or anything that can confuse qq's with the wrong target. Otherwise they will keep complaining.

 

People do not like dealing with things that fucks up their mind, this is generally true to other online games. Hence, why Mesmers and Thieves are hated as if there's an unspoken rule about it.