Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

> >

> > You compare sw2 on guardian to MT? Its not a teleport ,it doesnt leave an AOE damaging fields behind. Nothing alike. You also forgot that can be used without target or target beyond its range for teleport. MT can be compared to warrior sword 2 which dont need target .

> > Dont forget to increase cd on holo2 to ~6 and let them use it only with target withing 450 range . Lets see their reaction

>

> I mean, guard sword 2 doesn't daze or leave a clone. Arguing semantics is pointless. The classes are completely different. Mesmer already had more than enough out of combat mobility even with this change. I also didn't compare them as similar skills, I'm simply saying that making it require a target would cut down on mirages insane mobility without touching core or Chrono.

 

Oh well ,its you felt need to butt in with your sword 2(btw I even said they are NOTHING ALIKE to be compared) . And clearly you never played it ,fine. Its doesnt create a clone unless used right on someone within range and TARGET ,neither it daze anything if its doesnt land . And its so dumb that stars must alignt to let this skill actually hit ,even when you literally hug people .

Insane mobility? Insane disengage? Jaunts used defensively/offensively in combat , who keep all of them just to disengage? Blink is only disengage tool I believe?

What an insane mobility without swfitness or movespeed runes ... xD

Fyi to make an ambush with a sword you have to be on that weapon (Most mesmers play axe/staff ) and waste a dodge if you have it . Wasting dodges without access to vigor out of combat and be caught w/o any is fun for sure /sarcasm.

Your only argument about 'insane' mobility would be a portal

 

[whoknocks.4935]

If it wasn't for Portal right now mirage wouldn't even be in the meta, lot of builds around actually counters it pretty good, holosmith running elixir x are way way stronger than mirage in any serious comp, boonbeast is top 1vX duelist side noder at the moment, even the new tramawar sword build has more mobility then a thief plus lot's of favourable 1vs1 scenarios.

Not to mention the combo firebrand scourge is still the strongest duo you can get in a comp.

 

But yeah people sitting in silver league doing soloqs with maybe a team of double thief or core rangers will complain how broken is the mirage in the enemy team.

 

The game should't be balanced based on silver or gold players who doesn't know how to counter a certain profession.

Mirage, especially condi variant is the number one spec in the game which PUNISH heavily noob players with little understanding of the game mechanics.

 

If you watch lot of high level streams or AT tournaments you will see how mirages drop portal go to another node and they escape almost every single time from 1vs1s scenarios, unless they have a favourable matchup, and as I said they don't have many currently, holosmiths should melt mirages pretty hard, boonbeasts same story, even tramawar with signet of stamina and double shake it off plus emergency healing signet it's a tough opponent, standard daggerbreaker is a direct counter to condi mirages, core guards eat mirages alive.

Only revenant really struggles against condi mirage in a 1vs1, but usually rev is a +1 rotation build and if lands both sword4 and 5 goodbye mirage.

 

I play a lot of wvw as well, and I can touch the stupidity of some players, like this mithrill rank reaper who thinks he is good, i was semi afk and he attacks me on my hybrid mirage and I kill and stomp him, and immediately he whispers me calling me condi noob and cancer.

A reaper is a team fighter dps profession, it shines in 1vs1 against noobs who doesn't kite shroud, so you, reaper, why trash talk to me when you play a team fighter build and expect to win against a pure build made for 1vs1s?

You are free to roam with any spec you want, but don't trash talk if you don't even know your profession role, go in a small group with a firebrand pally and your reaper will become a monster.

 

It's because of stupid people like this guy that everyone cries over mirage.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

>

> What's funny is so many mirage players don't run that trait anymore as evasive mirror works better against static disc engines, pew pew soul beasts, and rifle deadeye.

> (...)

 

I very much doubt that will last (if it is even true). The blind gives nice additional damage with ineptitude. But I agree, it is nice for mesmer/mirage in general to be able to adjust the build in case the enemy team hase more than one DE or pewpew ranger. I wouldn't change that at all, because it not only affects condi mirage - maybe look at the ICD of ineptitude, but... that would hurt core condi... well, I dunno. I'd not change either. It's a nice synergy.

 

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> (...)

> Weavers have ride the lightning.

> (...)

 

I get triggerd when I see someone talking about ele. :lol: I hope you were not serious here! Ele can not catch up.* RtL has no verticality and often stops on tiny floor elevations. LoS actually works here. It is interruptible! 30s CD! Aaah! That skill is so dumb, I hate it.

 

On some easy maps like Eternal Loliseum (or when the mesmer is stupid and doesn't use verticality^^) it can be used, on many, it is not really good.

 

As I keep saying, mesmer has too many disengage capabilities for such a damage/sustain ratio. But yes, don't get triggered, same goes for holo. Boonbeast is easier to play, but can be pinned down. :tongue:

 

€:

*Hold on, gotta stop myself there. Not with most builds. Axe + Scepter ones can be caught. Staff and Sword makes them hard to catch for ele, even though it still depends on the actual CDs - LF ready, Air 2, how many Jaunts and stuff.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

Funny enough some ppl use it . Either to counter brother in arms (other mesmers that 100% based on projectiles) or some others known classes ;)

And about ineptitude ,its not a mandatory anymore. IH need clones ,only good trait left for mirage ... So hello DE again... I thought we wouldnt see this trait anymore after rework but no.

Also @whoknocks.4935 I see you changed your opinion after playing it yourself? ;)

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> Funny enough some ppl use it . Either to counter brother in arms (other mesmers that 100% based on projectiles) or some others known classes ;)

> And about ineptitude ,its not a mandatory anymore. IH need clones ,only good trait left for mirage ... So hello DE again... I thought we wouldnt see this trait anymore after rework but no.

> Also @whoknocks.4935 I see you changed your opinion after playing it yourself? ;)

 

Yaah, I actually like that each traitline and a lot of single traits enable mirage - especially condi mirage - to adjust and adapt to different compositions. That's something they really did well and I'd hope they did the same for other classes too. :smile:

 

Am I a bit jealous? No. Very!^^

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

> >

> > What's funny is so many mirage players don't run that trait anymore as evasive mirror works better against static disc engines, pew pew soul beasts, and rifle deadeye.

> > (...)

>

> I very much doubt that will last (if it is even true). The blind gives nice additional damage with ineptitude. But I agree, it is nice for mesmer/mirage in general to be able to adjust the build in case the enemy team hase more than one DE or pewpew ranger. I wouldn't change that at all, because it not only affects condi mirage - maybe look at the ICD of ineptitude, but... that would hurt core condi... well, I dunno. I'd not change either. It's a nice synergy.

>

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > (...)

> > Weavers have ride the lightning.

> > (...)

>

> I get triggerd when I see someone talking about ele. :lol: I hope you were not serious here! Ele can not catch up.* RtL has no verticality and often stops on tiny floor elevations. LoS actually works here. It is interruptible! 30s CD! Aaah! That skill is so dumb, I hate it.

>

> On some easy maps like Eternal Loliseum (or when the mesmer is stupid and doesn't use verticality^^) it can be used, on many, it is not really good.

>

> As I keep saying, mesmer has too many disengage capabilities for such a damage/sustain ratio. But yes, don't get triggered, same goes for holo. Boonbeast is easier to play, but can be pinned down. :tongue:

>

> €:

> *Hold on, gotta stop myself there. Not with most builds. Axe + Scepter ones can be caught. Staff and Sword makes them hard to catch for ele, even though it still depends on the actual CDs - LF ready, Air 2, how many Jaunts and stuff.

 

I see what you're saying, and you factor in the current Meta to a large extent, however You must also look at class representation and how even classes that are not inherently ranged have clutch skills that are ranged and CAN be reflected. That makes the trait next to invaluable. The only reason blind is a thing is because of ineptitude and that's on its last leg as it is.

Any changes to Mesmer mobility need to be done EXTREMELY cautiously and targeted at sword ambush and nowhere else to preserve build diversity, a slight reduction in leap from 600 to maybe 500 as an example (I know we had 450 as baseline at PoF release and it sucked, so there needs to be middle ground).

Bottomline calling Mesmer extremely mobile boils down to Portal and Sword Ambush, Blink isn't a problem. It functions the same way since launch on the same CD. Jaunt distance isn't enough to make a difference in gaining a large amount of space, between you and your opponent. It's best used for situational reposition and it's awesome at that. Introducing a higher CD on the sword ambush would just lower build diversity, by making sword useless. A rework on Ineptitude might actually just do the job without further changes, methinks.

 

I'm just spitballing here, feel free to provide better suggestions. I respect you enough to consider your input. :wink:

 

Also Why would you EVER want to catch a Mesmer as an Ele? You just forced the Mesmer to disengage, take the win and GTFO, get support from a class that handles them better, like your neighborhood Core Guard ideally.

 

 

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

> > >

> > > What's funny is so many mirage players don't run that trait anymore as evasive mirror works better against static disc engines, pew pew soul beasts, and rifle deadeye.

> > > (...)

> >

> > I very much doubt that will last (if it is even true). The blind gives nice additional damage with ineptitude. But I agree, it is nice for mesmer/mirage in general to be able to adjust the build in case the enemy team hase more than one DE or pewpew ranger. I wouldn't change that at all, because it not only affects condi mirage - maybe look at the ICD of ineptitude, but... that would hurt core condi... well, I dunno. I'd not change either. It's a nice synergy.

> >

> > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > (...)

> > > Weavers have ride the lightning.

> > > (...)

> >

> > I get triggerd when I see someone talking about ele. :lol: I hope you were not serious here! Ele can not catch up.* RtL has no verticality and often stops on tiny floor elevations. LoS actually works here. It is interruptible! 30s CD! Aaah! That skill is so dumb, I hate it.

> >

> > On some easy maps like Eternal Loliseum (or when the mesmer is stupid and doesn't use verticality^^) it can be used, on many, it is not really good.

> >

> > As I keep saying, mesmer has too many disengage capabilities for such a damage/sustain ratio. But yes, don't get triggered, same goes for holo. Boonbeast is easier to play, but can be pinned down. :tongue:

> >

> > €:

> > *Hold on, gotta stop myself there. Not with most builds. Axe + Scepter ones can be caught. Staff and Sword makes them hard to catch for ele, even though it still depends on the actual CDs - LF ready, Air 2, how many Jaunts and stuff.

>

> I see what you're saying, and you factor in the current Meta to a large extent, however You must also look at class representation and how even classes that are not inherently ranged have clutch skills that are ranged and CAN be reflected. That makes the trait next to invaluable. The only reason blind is a thing is because of ineptitude and that's on its last leg as it is.

> Any changes to Mesmer mobility need to be done EXTREMELY cautiously and targeted at sword ambush and nowhere else to preserve build diversity, a slight reduction in leap from 600 to maybe 500 as an example (I know we had 450 as baseline at PoF release and it sucked, so there needs to be middle ground).

> Bottomline calling Mesmer extremely mobile boils down to Portal and Sword Ambush, Blink isn't a problem. It functions the same way since launch on the same CD. Jaunt distance isn't enough to make a difference in gaining a large amount of space, between you and your opponent. It's best used for situational reposition and it's awesome at that. Introducing a higher CD on the sword ambush would just lower build diversity, by making sword useless. A rework on Ineptitude might actually just do the job without further changes, methinks.

>

> I'm just spitballing here, feel free to provide better suggestions. I respect you enough to consider your input. :wink:

>

 

I agree, maybe some change to sword ambush would already be a good start - but actually, axe just adds up more damage and still is very mobile. One jaunt is okay, but three in a row can be really strong, up and down ledges and stuff. Of course depends on the ammo situation of it, 30s CD is pretty tough.

 

Anyway, I would like to see mesmer take choices. Between strong damage and strong sustain/kite abilities. My suggestion:

1. Make dodge unable during stuns.

2. EM makes it usable during stuns.

3. Reduce recharge time of jaunt back to 20s, but put a 5s CD on it. Numbers may vary.

 

This way condi mes has to choose between sustain with EM and damage with IH.

 

And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

 

Again, I doubt any dev will read this topic this far, but I would be very interested in mesmer main opinions if this would be too harsh, a wrong direction or even too few changes at all.

 

> Also Why would you EVER want to catch a Mesmer as an Ele? You just forced the Mesmer to disengage, take the win and GTFO, get support from a class that handles them better, like your neighborhood Core Guard ideally.

>

 

That's pretty true.^^ Weaver really trolls condi mirage into eternity. Not like killing, but stalling and decapping. :tongue:

 

 

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > > My only gripe with Condi mirage is the insane amount of disengage. Realistically, you should never die. The only changes if like to see are; make sword ambush require a target, like guardian sword 2. I'd also like to see an ICD added to blinding dissipation, not because it's op but because it's horrible to play against as a melee class where dodging shatters is a guessing game and not reactable (if that's even a word).

> > > >

> > > > What's funny is so many mirage players don't run that trait anymore as evasive mirror works better against static disc engines, pew pew soul beasts, and rifle deadeye.

> > > > (...)

> > >

> > > I very much doubt that will last (if it is even true). The blind gives nice additional damage with ineptitude. But I agree, it is nice for mesmer/mirage in general to be able to adjust the build in case the enemy team hase more than one DE or pewpew ranger. I wouldn't change that at all, because it not only affects condi mirage - maybe look at the ICD of ineptitude, but... that would hurt core condi... well, I dunno. I'd not change either. It's a nice synergy.

> > >

> > > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > (...)

> > > > Weavers have ride the lightning.

> > > > (...)

> > >

> > > I get triggerd when I see someone talking about ele. :lol: I hope you were not serious here! Ele can not catch up.* RtL has no verticality and often stops on tiny floor elevations. LoS actually works here. It is interruptible! 30s CD! Aaah! That skill is so dumb, I hate it.

> > >

> > > On some easy maps like Eternal Loliseum (or when the mesmer is stupid and doesn't use verticality^^) it can be used, on many, it is not really good.

> > >

> > > As I keep saying, mesmer has too many disengage capabilities for such a damage/sustain ratio. But yes, don't get triggered, same goes for holo. Boonbeast is easier to play, but can be pinned down. :tongue:

> > >

> > > €:

> > > *Hold on, gotta stop myself there. Not with most builds. Axe + Scepter ones can be caught. Staff and Sword makes them hard to catch for ele, even though it still depends on the actual CDs - LF ready, Air 2, how many Jaunts and stuff.

> >

> > I see what you're saying, and you factor in the current Meta to a large extent, however You must also look at class representation and how even classes that are not inherently ranged have clutch skills that are ranged and CAN be reflected. That makes the trait next to invaluable. The only reason blind is a thing is because of ineptitude and that's on its last leg as it is.

> > Any changes to Mesmer mobility need to be done EXTREMELY cautiously and targeted at sword ambush and nowhere else to preserve build diversity, a slight reduction in leap from 600 to maybe 500 as an example (I know we had 450 as baseline at PoF release and it sucked, so there needs to be middle ground).

> > Bottomline calling Mesmer extremely mobile boils down to Portal and Sword Ambush, Blink isn't a problem. It functions the same way since launch on the same CD. Jaunt distance isn't enough to make a difference in gaining a large amount of space, between you and your opponent. It's best used for situational reposition and it's awesome at that. Introducing a higher CD on the sword ambush would just lower build diversity, by making sword useless. A rework on Ineptitude might actually just do the job without further changes, methinks.

> >

> > I'm just spitballing here, feel free to provide better suggestions. I respect you enough to consider your input. :wink:

> >

>

> I agree, maybe some change to sword ambush would already be a good start - but actually, axe just adds up more damage and still is very mobile. One jaunt is okay, but three in a row can be really strong, up and down ledges and stuff. Of course depends on the ammo situation of it, 30s CD is pretty tough.

>

> Anyway, I would like to see mesmer take choices. Between strong damage and strong sustain/kite abilities. My suggestion:

> 1. Make dodge unable during stuns.

> 2. EM makes it usable during stuns.

> 3. Reduce recharge time of jaunt back to 20s, but put a 5s CD on it. Numbers may vary.

>

> This way condi mes has to choose between sustain with EM and damage with IH.

>

> And last but not least: Either make portal way less efficient in PVP or give it to other classes. That is still a major advantage of mesmer and makes it extremely hard to balance. It is - for example - a major reason it was meta throughout HoT. While in the end, condi chrono was really not that great in pure fighting capabilities anymore, but simply had to be balanced around that skill. That sucks for both mesmers and other classes in some way.

>

> Again, I doubt any dev will read this topic this far, but I would be very interested in mesmer main opinions if this would be too harsh, a wrong direction or even too few changes at all.

>

> > Also Why would you EVER want to catch a Mesmer as an Ele? You just forced the Mesmer to disengage, take the win and GTFO, get support from a class that handles them better, like your neighborhood Core Guard ideally.

> >

>

> That's pretty true.^^ Weaver really trolls condi mirage into eternity. Not like killing, but stalling and decapping. :tongue:

>

>

 

While I do agree with a lot of the suggestions, those CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be done in a single patch, it has to be spread out over a couple Balance patches at least as there will undoubtedly be changes to the other 8 classes and those will reflect on Mesmer as a class as well. Which is why I said slow, targeted changes, that also take into account how the meta progresses. Historically this is ANET's biggest downfall, because of their scarce balance patches and failure to adopt hotfixes to glaring issues... We end up with A dominant class getting 3-4 things nerfed in a single patch while 2 under performing classes get 3-4 things buffed and the result is a complete MESS, god forbid our dear Devs stop for a moment and consider how the meta would be affected, oh wait! That actually requires player input and we ALL know they're done listening to those thanks to bums like, ugh not mentioning any names.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

 

They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

>

> They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

 

Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

> >

> > They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

>

> Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

 

IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

> > >

> > > They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

> >

> > Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

>

> IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

 

You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

> > > >

> > > > They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

> > >

> > > Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

> >

> > IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

>

> You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

 

Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:

When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

 

Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

 

Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

> > > > >

> > > > > They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

> > > >

> > > > Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

> > >

> > > IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

> >

> > You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

>

> Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:

> When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

>

> Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

>

> Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

 

???

 

Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

[Arlette.9684]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

> > > > >

> > > > > Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

> > > >

> > > > IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

> > >

> > > You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

> >

> > Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:

> > When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

> >

> > Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

> >

> > Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

>

> ???

>

> Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

 

I only responded cuz you were talking about IH as a trait initially.

The clone ambushes have been tweaked as I mentioned already. Only viable option is to tweak the Caster's ambushes not the clone ones. If that's what you were going for, then we're in agreement.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > > > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

> > > > >

> > > > > IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

> > > >

> > > > You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

> > >

> > > Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:

> > > When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

> > >

> > > Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

> > >

> > > Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

> >

> > ???

> >

> > Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

>

> I only responded cuz you were talking about IH as a trait initially.

> The clone ambushes have been tweaked as I mentioned already. Only viable option is to tweak the Caster's ambushes not the clone ones. If that's what you were going for, then we're in agreement.

 

I'm fine with either options.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"FtoPScrub.5476" said:

> > > > > > > > > The IH build is super monkey and is worse than pre-october nerf EM and should be nerfed by toning down the ambush skills of condi weapons for clones. EM exhaustion should also be reverted to 3 seconds.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They're already at 50% of Mesmer duration/stacks. How much more do you want them nerfed? If memory serves me well and @"Pyroatheist.9031" feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, IH was nerfed a little after PoF released to that 50% value.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Previous nerfs should play zero part in balancing. It doesn't matter if a skill was previously nerfed 1000000%. If its still OP then its still OP.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IH is not OP, it's very limited and targeted at what it does. It's not the trait, it's the ambushes themselves is what I'm getting at.

> > > > >

> > > > > You didn't mention anything about ambushes so I don't know how you expect me to know what you're getting at, but nerfing the ambushes themselves is fine as well.

> > > >

> > > > Excerpt from the GW2 Wiki page:

> > > > When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

> > > >

> > > > Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Horizon

> > > >

> > > > Where in that trait description, do you see a way to nerf it without completely redoing it? That's literary all the trait does.

> > >

> > > ???

> > >

> > > Nerf the ambush from clones??? As I said in my first post???

> >

> > I only responded cuz you were talking about IH as a trait initially.

> > The clone ambushes have been tweaked as I mentioned already. Only viable option is to tweak the Caster's ambushes not the clone ones. If that's what you were going for, then we're in agreement.

>

> I'm fine with either options.

 

There is no options, it's that way or no way. Where do you see options?

It doesn't fucking matter what you or I see, it's what ANET sees as viable options and they have a long history of going overboard.

 

Edit: I only responded to this bait because I thought you were somebody else, now If you'll excuse me...

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"dagger dave.5201" said:

> Cleave clones, dodge burst, stow wep if u mis time the dodge... mirage is probably the easiest side noder to 1v1

 

But its probably the best class to kill unskilled/unexperienced players with :)

Who do you think posts these "PLEASE NERF ZOMG" threads? xD

 

[brappish.8715]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > @"dagger dave.5201" said:

> > Cleave clones, dodge burst, stow wep if u mis time the dodge... mirage is probably the easiest side noder to 1v1

>

> But its probably the best class to kill unskilled/unexperienced players with :)

> Who do you think posts these "PLEASE NERF ZOMG" threads? xD

>

 

100% thats whos complaining. You dont hear any top tier people having issues...because it's literally a mind f ack for people who are "meh" at pvp. So they QQ here

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> Funny enough some ppl use it . Either to counter brother in arms (other mesmers that 100% based on projectiles) or some others known classes ;)

> And about ineptitude ,its not a mandatory anymore. IH need clones ,only good trait left for mirage ... So hello DE again... I thought we wouldnt see this trait anymore after rework but no.

> Also @whoknocks.4935 I see you changed your opinion after playing it yourself? ;)

 

In pvp mirage never gave me too much troubles, i play monstly solo roaming in wvw and with all the build possibilities there it's where mirages gave me more issues.

 

Now i pretty much switched to mirage roaming as well after trying it out, i use a sustain build condi oriented, sometimes i switch to grieving stats to have fun with hybrid.

 

To be honest it's the only profession since i started playing wvw that don't make me frustrated, in wvw it's all a constant gank from 2vs1 to 10vs1 because people is bad at their class and find the excuse to "help" the server winning and go for cheap kills.

But the reality is killing 1 person is like dropping a tear into the ocean in the big scheme of wvw.

Actually yesterday a group of 10 people chased me for about 5-10 minutes across the map until they killed me, they could invest that time flipping a camp a tower or even a keep instead to go for a 10vs1 for 10 mins xD so in the end i won.

 

But yeah in pvp is far from being broken, i repeat, holosmith should melt any mirage, meta daggerbreaker and tramawar are both able to kill mirage no problem or force a retreat, boonbeast if manages well his sustain and get plasma have an easy time against mirage who is forced to disengage, before mirage could take any 1vs1 without caring at all, now at this point with all the nerfs and the rising of crazy good builds it's not that easy anymore, still it's good a 1vs1 and old few people 1vs2 due to the evades and target breaks, but he is forced to disengage against any other dualist build which usually outshine mirage.

If it wasn't for portal and good plus 1 ability, mesmer now probably wasn't even in the meta.

But yeah people play with core ranger in pvp and cry because they die to mirage.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

I played always no toughness/vitality roaming solo on wvw. There always indeed like 1vs million ppl and triggered ppl continue to chase/gank because you kill them w/o outnumbered. Soon enough you will use frnezy into aoe retal and then your jaw will drop on the floor ... xD

Well ,realistically only bad people die 1x2 to anything , not just mirage . Core ranger is good at cleansing unless they slot god know what and expect ...miracle to happen .

Its more like a matter of a personal skill .

You forgot to mention core guardians ... xD

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> I played always no toughness/vitality roaming solo on wvw. There always indeed like 1vs million ppl and triggered ppl continue to chase/gank because you kill them w/o outnumbered. Soon enough you will use frnezy into aoe retal and then your jaw will drop on the floor ... xD

> Well ,realistically only bad people die 1x2 to anything , not just mirage . Core ranger is good at cleansing unless they slot god know what and expect ...miracle to happen .

> Its more like a matter of a personal skill .

> You forgot to mention core guardians ... xD

 

If you play power shatter mirage you don't stack toughness or vitality, but in an hybrid condi build you can and should, since your bursr is melee range you need extra sustain to win the fights.

What do you mean only bad players die 1x2?

 

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > I played always no toughness/vitality roaming solo on wvw. There always indeed like 1vs million ppl and triggered ppl continue to chase/gank because you kill them w/o outnumbered. Soon enough you will use frnezy into aoe retal and then your jaw will drop on the floor ... xD

> > Well ,realistically only bad people die 1x2 to anything , not just mirage . Core ranger is good at cleansing unless they slot god know what and expect ...miracle to happen .

> > Its more like a matter of a personal skill .

> > You forgot to mention core guardians ... xD

>

> If you play power shatter mirage you don't stack toughness or vitality, but in an hybrid condi build you can and should, since your bursr is melee range you need extra sustain to win the fights.

> What do you mean only bad players die 1x2?

>

I played yolo hybrid always . I wanted to get kills asap.

1x2 comment about

>still it's good a 1vs1 and old few people 1vs2 due to the evades and target breaks

Its not really win 1x2 ,especially if firebrand around ,time to pack things and move on .But not playing wvw anymore ,boring to play alone against 3+ :disappointed:

[Xstein.2187]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> If you play power shatter mirage you don't stack toughness or vitality, but in an hybrid condi build you can and should, since your bursr is melee range you need extra sustain to win the fights.

> What do you mean only bad players die 1x2?

>

 

Power shatter needs to be in melee range for burst as well. Mirror blade only gets more bounces close up and you only damage yourself as a shatter if you are close. Now, certainly you can do damage at range playing power. However, you can do the same with condi as well. Both can do damage at a distance but do more damage at close range.