Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[EUmad.7645]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"EUmad.7645" said:

> >

> > > @"EUmad.7645" Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

> > >

> > Carrion is not a pure condi setup. You have also a really good direct damage with sword and staff ambush .... and in my opinion , what makes that build stronger than GS burst is the staff 2 skill ... you can create clone and outplace yourself, it is really a strong strong life saver and gs has nothing similar.

> >

>

> I guess my point is that, I don't think anyone ever thought Carrion was just a condi amulet to begin with my man.

 

Condi mirage for me is a rabid or dire or trabalizer spec. In carrion your direct damage is near you condi damage so it is not "condi". You don't die for condi alone, instead if u play condi usually your opponent dies only for condi and not for direct damage. For me the right name is hybrid mirage .

[Megametzler.5729]

I'll only respond to this, since I am not really a fan of citation wars.

 

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> (...)

> >hardly any class can stop them from disengaging.

> I prefer to no need disengaging and fight on point than to be forced to run away.

> (...)

 

Condi mirage can hardly get killed. That is the main point. It can invest heavily into a duel and if things go wrong, they can use various skills to escape. The same does not go for any other class (maybe holo, because perma swiftness and stuff).

 

1. Reaper can only really disengage with wurm or maybe shroud 2. If they invest into a fight, miss their burst, they have a tough time. Same for scourge.

2. Thief (not really talking about rifle DE here) bursts and has to finish the opponent. Otherwise disengage, kite. Shadowstep can be used as an engage/disengage tool for... how many seconds?

3. FA ele has exactly one teleport on a higher CD than mesmer. But I guess we don't talk about eles.

4. Spellbreaker is easier to catch, but also hard. If they want to kite, they can do it easily with FC blocks and various movement tools. But if you corrupt and/or stun them, they have no 4 instant teleports away.

5. Soulbeast also has a lot of movement skills and stealth access, but no blinds, no instant teleports, can be stunned.

6. Core guard can hardly disengage at all, needs enemies to teleport to. If they fail their JI burst, they are stuck right there.

7. Revenant has no stab, needs a target for teleports.

8. Holo is tough too. Elixir S for emergency disengage, perma swiftness and stealth. Still can be stunlocked after his auto Elixir proc.

 

Meanwhile condi mirage has 3 (!) instant 450 teleports. They even are jump finishers (for whatever reason). Got hit by spellbreakers shield bash or rampage, no (lol) evade left? 4 teleports to avoid the next burst. 4! You can even use one or two offensively, investing a lot in offense, stun breaking or kiting and still have a teleport left!

 

That "investment risk" is what I would like to see changed. BUT: Yes, I would like to see it changed on holo and spellbreaker too. How can they have so much sustain with purely offensive amulets? Increase damage and let all their healing skills scale much more with healing power. So they have to decide between being tanky and sustainy and damage.

[Thedenofsin.7340]

Doesn't really seem like a problem to me. I blow up condi mirage mesmers all time, as long as I load a trait or talent that can cleanse some conditions. Transferring conditions back on a mesmer blows them up even faster.

 

I think the fundamental issue I'm seeing is people are coming up against a conditioner mesmer without condition cleanse.

 

Deadeye thieves are far worse, IMO. If you survive the ranged nuke, they just hide and do it again.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

>Evades, blocks, invul to survive(which is a huge part of the problem). Specific classes have all of the latter in addition to stealth and easy disengagement. It just so happens that Mirage has higher uptime of those 100% mitigation skills than anyone

Daredevil ,thief can spam evades as long as he have initiative, blocking utility (not random from CS), daggerstorm is 4s invul and just dumb elite that can be recharged because of improvisation , stealth balbla . So no , not more. Lets try again? ;)

[MyPuppy.8970]

The only counter I know of is spamming threads for nerf. If you spam enough, it will create a super thread big enough to give mirage mains some more exhaustion.

[jportell.2197]

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> The only counter I know of is spamming threads for nerf. If you spam enough, it will create a super thread big enough to give mirage mains some more exhaustion.

 

Seriously. Idk what people want man. It's like 2014 when mesmer nearly got deleted from the game because of all the nerfs

[MikeL.8260]

First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.

As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

[Silence.3702]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> golden spoon = nerf duel capacity since release ? (remember sword 3 work when clone die, sword 3 who breakstunt for example.)

> = 9 ultitary with no cd reduction, 5 with no traits ?

> Mourner = I want to rollafce mesmer even with my heal exotic build.

 

hahaha

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> >Evades, blocks, invul to survive(which is a huge part of the problem). Specific classes have all of the latter in addition to stealth and easy disengagement. It just so happens that Mirage has higher uptime of those 100% mitigation skills than anyone

> Daredevil ,thief can spam evades as long as he have initiative, blocking utility (not random from CS), daggerstorm is 4s invul and just dumb elite that can be recharged because of improvisation , stealth balbla . So no , not more. Lets try again? ;)

 

I do agree that DE is extremely cheap with the "perma stealth ranged attack" mode they are having. It might be not OP, but it is exactly the same "investment into fight" I talked about earlier - they don't have to invest pretty much anything. I'd love to see the stealth duration decreased or revealed be interesting again...

 

This does not go for DD or S/D and stuff. Using initiative for evades limits access to stealth, to SB 5 for disengaging and of course to offense. That is okay. And yes, imagine a DD being able to attack you while invulnerable would extremely OP too. This way, when they dodge, you can just wait it out. Even... *gasp* ... bait dodges as people used to do! Which is a lot harder with mirages (dodge while stunned, dodge for offense...).

 

DS is dum though, also agree. :lol:

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Dodge shatters - when clones run to you or when they jump at you all at the same time.

Kill clones when the mirage itself is stealthed while still playing attention to your surroundings.

Load up WS skills with Wilderness Knowledge trait.

Don't spam skills while you've confusion on you.

 

If the mirage is running evasive mirror (reflect projectiles after a sucessful evasion) you don't stand a chance tho.

[viquing.8254]

@"Megametzler.5729" :

Reaper/necro in general shouldn't 1v1 and ideally have a sustain with it to teamplay.

SD thief can engage/disengage forever.

FA is..., well we don't talk about ele :D

Soulbeast have plethora of soft condi from pet/skills who help much (poison, weakness, cripple ...).

Ok for the rest.

 

But remember that once mesmer drop sword and staff, even with jaunt, it has meh mobility.

[incisorr.9502]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> There were several feedback threads about the Condi Mirage. In order to collate feedback in the most meaningful way, we've merged those threads into this one. Please share your thoughts here. (Please do not create yet another thread.)

 

 

that's nice but the mods are randomly deleting literally every second good post there is for no reason without any justification and then i see posts like " condi mirage has too much of everything while power is high risk and reward " being left here which is a blatant lie and is literally the exact opposite and i've at least given arguments as to why that is but it just gets ignored by low-gold ppl here who have no clue about balance but for some reason think its good to talk about it when they can't even do things as basic as reading skills or understanding stats

 

Condi mirage is currently the "weakest meta class" and i don't consider it meta but everyone still does. Reaper can hit for 15k with a single ability with infinite quickness but mirage can't have more than 1 sec vigor XDddddddDddddddddD useFuL tRaItS . Condi mirage has no protection unless u use staff and then u have no dmg, power mirage has protection cus it doesnt take axe traits = clearly power mirage is higher risk despite having better mobility and more protection and higher range and better burst , better nerf condi some more

 

im not gonna write an essay cus i wrote several and they were all deleted for no reason

 

 

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

>DD being able to attack you while invulnerable would extremely OP too.

> DS is dum though, also agree. :lol:

DS is core elite ,everyone can use it and its does exact what you said -> do damage while being invulnerable. its not just does crapton of damage(that even bounce between enemies) but also REFLECT projectiles and improvisation can recharge it(ultra dumb). Fought vs thief that got it recharged 3 times in a row, imagine how much fun it was for me xD

About stealth ...ye I want personally longer reveals too... :)

 

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @"Megametzler.5729" :

> Reaper/necro in general shouldn't 1v1 and ideally have a sustain with it to teamplay.

> SD thief can engage/disengage forever.

> FA is..., well we don't talk about ele :D

> Soulbeast have plethora of soft condi from pet/skills who help much (poison, weakness, cripple ...).

> Ok for the rest.

>

> But remember that once mesmer drop sword and staff, even with jaunt, it has meh mobility.

 

Yepp, I didn't mean to talk specifically about duels but general "investment in fights". Could have been clearer.^^ S/D can engage/disengage, but then they lack damage - and they can still be stunned, which is the main difference from jaunting around.

 

And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi mirage. :smile:

 

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> >DD being able to attack you while invulnerable would extremely OP too.

> > DS is dum though, also agree. :lol:

> DS is core elite ,everyone can use it and its does exact what you said -> do damage while being invulnerable. its not just does crapton of damage(that even bounce between enemies) but also REFLECT projectiles and improvisation can recharge it(ultra dumb). Fought vs thief that got it recharged 3 times in a row, imagine how much fun it was for me xD

> About stealth ...ye I want personally longer reveals too... :)

>

 

Yeah, I don't know why they overloaded that skill so much... :lol: I mean, yes it was unused and now some use it, but... why did they have to add that much? Feels like FC - blockstununblockabledamagebooncondislol.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> Yeah, I don't know why they overloaded that skill so much... :lol: I mean, yes it was unused and now some use it, but... why did they have to add that much? Feels like FC - blockstununblockabledamagebooncondislol.

 

Btw Mirage is no different in terms of 'disengage' . Shadowstep is analog of blink but way better imo. Jaunt have 3x450 range for 90s cd same and used either offensively or mobility. Mirage dropped sword ,no mobility ,no 'easy' disengage,because no more vigor/nerfed frenzy and EM nerfed to oblivion . If you caught into 1x2 by thief/guardian, say good night :disappointed:

Now not just 'some' use it ,every single thief on this planet use it ...I even seen DE with it...You almost got to them and about to kill them with great cost of your resources and health...and then...daggerstorm.... :trollface:

[jportell.2197]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > There were several feedback threads about the Condi Mirage. In order to collate feedback in the most meaningful way, we've merged those threads into this one. Please share your thoughts here. (Please do not create yet another thread.)

>

>

> that's nice but the mods are randomly deleting literally every second good post there is for no reason without any justification and then i see posts like " condi mirage has too much of everything while power is high risk and reward " being left here which is a blatant lie and is literally the exact opposite and i've at least given arguments as to why that is but it just gets ignored by low-gold ppl here who have no clue about balance but for some reason think its good to talk about it when they can't even do things as basic as reading skills or understanding stats

>

> Condi mirage is currently the "weakest meta class" and i don't consider it meta but everyone still does. Reaper can hit for 15k with a single ability with infinite quickness but mirage can't have more than 1 sec vigor XDddddddDddddddddD useFuL tRaItS . Condi mirage has no protection unless u use staff and then u have no dmg, power mirage has protection cus it doesnt take axe traits = clearly power mirage is higher risk despite having better mobility and more protection and higher range and better burst , better nerf condi some more

>

> im not gonna write an essay cus i wrote several and they were all deleted for no reason

>

>

 

Well I quote you so hopefully your post remains. And at least some of the people here can reflect maybe in game and ask for advice. I climbed my butt this season from low gold to plat 2 playing an off meta scepter spec. And everytime I win a match I get told I was carried by my spec which has max 5s stealth every 30s, one target break etc.

 

This is getting to the point where I feel the only way these players will be happy is

1. Axe does no condi damage

2. Sword doesn't evade at all anymore

3. Mesmer has no stealth access

4. All vigor traits removed, everytime a mirage dodges they get exhaustion

5. Ambush skills now hit the mesmer and give bonus to the enemy.

 

And lastly, the enemy team can now use your portal. There everyone happy? Jesus

[jportell.2197]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > .

>

> And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

 

Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

 

Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

 

But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > .

> >

> > And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

>

> Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

>

> Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

>

> But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

 

I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

 

Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

 

EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

[jportell.2197]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > .

> > >

> > > And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

> >

> > Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

> >

> > Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

> >

> > But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

>

> I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

>

> Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

>

> EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

 

I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

 

So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

[Toron.4856]

> @"jportell.2197" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > > .

> > > >

> > > > And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

> > >

> > > Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

> > >

> > > Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

> > >

> > > But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

> >

> > I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

> >

> > Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

> >

> > EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

>

> I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

>

> So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

 

Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed

Remove dodging while stunned

Remove attacking while dodging

 

 

[jportell.2197]

> @"Toron.4856" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > > > .

> > > > >

> > > > > And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

> > > >

> > > > Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

> > > >

> > > > Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

> > > >

> > > > But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

> > >

> > > I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^ Ele for example has to invest quite a lot. Save teleport for disengage or to avoid some burst? Save one ToF on a 50s CD for emergency or to stay on point? Oops, I did it again, talking about ele in the PVP forum! Sorry for that.

> > >

> > > Out of curiosity, do you still use portal or do you focus on dueling on side nodes?

> > >

> > > EM was abandoned in higher tiers quite some time ago for the extra condi damage.

> >

> > I use portal based on maps. So what would make mirage high risk say compared to a weaver which btw will just stall out a 1v1 against a mirage on a node. If I see ele on a node they own I don't even bother. For some reason though when I fight Koto he doesn't seem to have a hard time.

> >

> > So what do u need to see gutted on this class to make YOU happy.

>

> Buff mirages dmg and w/e u want to be buffed

> Remove dodging while stunned

> Remove attacking while dodging

>

>

 

Remove dodging while stunned I agree with. Removing attacking while dodging would require a complete rework of ambush skills and the animations on several skills to be adjusted. Unfortunately you and I both know that part of mirage will never be removed.

 

Also: Rev can attack while dodging with a weapon skill, and block while attacking with staff.

Ranger GS1 has an evade on the AA chain (still see it used sometime)

S/D thief don't get me started on the damaging evade frames from sword/dagger rework.

Oh and remember pistolwhip?

 

As for the person mentioning holo disengage, toss elixir S, holo skill 2 spam away.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > .

> > >

> > > And yeah, when they run axe and scepter. I like that for example, they change fighting capability for mobility, they have to decide. I would like to see more decisions in general, not only on condi

> >

> > Ok I'll quote you here. I run axe pistol/scepter torch. I personally find the higher output in damage worth it since mirage mainly relies on two condis *confusion* and *torment*

> >

> > Am I still OP on the mobility front? I got to play 2 using this off meta spec. I would love to see all these whiners do any work on mirage running that as it is way more high risk than sword.

> >

> > But I knew these threads were coming after the elusive mind nerfed because all mirage players switched to infinite horizon. So the complaining just keeps coming

>

> I still think your mirage has an extremely low risk in investment, yes. :tongue: But I am mostly comparing to... well, not holo and spellbreaker and stuff.^^

 

While I can't speak for spellbreaker, holo really can't disengage from fights like most other classes. It lacks teleports, and the only true "disengage" it can carry is stealth.

[Fearless.3569]

> @"MikeL.8260" said:

> First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.

> As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

 

I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Toron.4856" said:

> Remove attacking while dodging

>

 

 

So, remove mirage mechanic?

What do you propose to give mirage instead?

[jportell.2197]

> @"Fearless.3569" said:

> > @"MikeL.8260" said:

> > First off it's normal to struggle against Mesmers as a new player so don't let that drag you down. It's the most unique class you will ever encounter in any game, MMO or not.

> > As a core Ranger (i assume it's what you play) simply put you stand no chance, only Soulbeasts and some Druids can duel with a Mirage. Instead focus your efforts on objectives and helping your team in teamfights, thats your job. Let your team's side noder (War/Thief/Mesmer) deal with the enemy Mirage.

>

> I started out as a core Ranger. Now I'm trying to learn the Metabattle Sic'em Sniper build. But against the Mesmers I'm just getting owned by conditions. Even if I cleanse they load me right up after all of my dodges and cleanses go on cool down. Should I just abandon Longbow and go Boonbeast instead? Would that help me out or no?

 

Boonbeast would definitely help.