Miko.4158 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > which needs balance. > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > come on people. > > its not rocket science. > > False dilemma. > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. scourge = pirate ship, wod = melee you've conveniently left out the projectile bit. bubble goes up melee/everyone charges pirateship. there are def bubbles etc , but the main is to get into the enemy zerg rather than stand off . if you bubble and they retreat open backs. if they charge stand off broken. if they stand still, all in. alot of scourge in wvw have an interst in keeping it pirate heavy and are vocal If you are on balance needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 > @"Miko.4158" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > > which needs balance. > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > > come on people. > > > its not rocket science. > > > > False dilemma. > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. > > scourge = pirate ship, > wod = melee > you've conveniently left out the projectile bit. > bubble goes up melee/everyone charges pirateship. > there are def bubbles etc , but the main is to get into the enemy zerg rather than stand off . > if you bubble and they retreat open backs. > if they charge stand off broken. > if they stand still, all in. > alot of scourge in wvw have an interst in keeping it pirate heavy and are vocal > If you are on balance needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. I understand how offensive bubbles work they don't counter scourges they counter the stab and resi cds of the enemy groups supports. The whole point of the offensive bubble is to prevent the support from being able to do their job long enough to kill them all in one big melee bomb. WoD doesn't counter scourges it counters firebrands. The projectile hate is irrelevant when talking about scourges as most of their damage isn't projectile based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 if you are melee the projectile protection is worth alot. >melee is the counter to scourge. projectile hate? no idea what you are on about. I don't think half the people on this forum play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Haired Savage.5430 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping. > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke. > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much. > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo. > > > > a million red rings is area denial. > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy. > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what? Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage. > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > which needs balance. > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > come on people. > > its not rocket science. > > False dilemma. > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. Another overly represented class in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping. > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke. > > > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much. > > > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo. > > > > > > a million red rings is area denial. > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy. > > > > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what? > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage. > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > > which needs balance. > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > > come on people. > > > its not rocket science. > > > > False dilemma. > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. > > Another overly represented class in WvW. I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint. As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Haired Savage.5430 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping. > > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke. > > > > > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much. > > > > > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo. > > > > > > > > a million red rings is area denial. > > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy. > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what? > > > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage. > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > > > which needs balance. > > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > > > come on people. > > > > its not rocket science. > > > > > > False dilemma. > > > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. > > > > Another overly represented class in WvW. > > I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint. > > As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue. Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 its not balance, if you take a weak elite and nerf 50% of its good skills. in terms of size- a 60%? correction/? best case its an original kitten mistake and yet so massive it slipped through testing and various patches and somehow didnt end up with loads of sbs. worst case its knee jerk to reddit whinging by pirateships. shambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping. > > > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke. > > > > > > > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much. > > > > > > > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo. > > > > > > > > > > a million red rings is area denial. > > > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what? > > > > > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage. > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > > > > which needs balance. > > > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > > > > come on people. > > > > > its not rocket science. > > > > > > > > False dilemma. > > > > > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. > > > > > > Another overly represented class in WvW. > > > > I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint. > > > > As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue. > > Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds. Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate. I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBravery.9615 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Nerf firebrands boon sharing next Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Cole.7849 Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. While you're digging deep, how about fixing the animation bug that makes WoD reappear after the skill has ended. I believe this gives people the impression that the skill lasts longer than it actually does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Haired Savage.5430 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping. > > > > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo. > > > > > > > > > > > > a million red rings is area denial. > > > > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what? > > > > > > > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage. > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > > > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > > > > > which needs balance. > > > > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > > > > > come on people. > > > > > > its not rocket science. > > > > > > > > > > False dilemma. > > > > > > > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. > > > > > > > > Another overly represented class in WvW. > > > > > > I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint. > > > > > > As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue. > > > > Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds. > > Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate. > > I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day. Which mechanic are you talking about is the ultimate form of boon hate? If you're talking about WoD's disenchantment debuff it's now only 4 seconds, on a 90 second CD, with a 2.5 second warning...such an "ultimate form of boon hate." I would much rather not have any boons than have my boons converted into conditions. While the scourges get to maintain their boon hate through a fight a warrior doesn't have anything they can maintain for boon dislike as much as a Scourge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping. > > > > > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a million red rings is area denial. > > > > > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what? > > > > > > > > > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > > > > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > > > > > > which needs balance. > > > > > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > > > > > > come on people. > > > > > > > its not rocket science. > > > > > > > > > > > > False dilemma. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. > > > > > > > > > > Another overly represented class in WvW. > > > > > > > > I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint. > > > > > > > > As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue. > > > > > > Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds. > > > > Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate. > > > > I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day. > > Which mechanic are you talking about is the ultimate form of boon hate? If you're talking about WoD's disenchantment debuff it's now only 4 seconds, on a 90 second CD, with a 2.5 second warning...such an "ultimate form of boon hate." I would much rather not have any boons than have my boons converted into conditions. While the scourges get to maintain their boon hate through a fight a warrior doesn't have anything they can maintain for boon dislike as much as a Scourge. Yeah the boon denial debuff. My point was that that debuff is the ultimate form of boon hate but spellbreakers only got it on their elite while pretty much everything else about spellbreaker is meh. Whereas everything problematic about firebrands and scourges is spread out amongst their class mechanic utilities elites and traits which is what makes them hard to tone down properly compared to spellbreakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Haired Savage.5430 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > > > > the area denial stuff is nonsense aswell, people engage with bubbles, it helps cancel out pirate shipping. > > > > > > > > > > its available to everyone so there is no 'advantage' simply scourages crying 'foul' presuambly on reddit. what a joke. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The old winds was a textbook example of area denial; total no man's land wherever a bubble was up, top priority was to gtfo the bubble asap or risk getting ccd where supports couldn't help much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It still serves as solid area denial it just doesn't last as long and there's now a 1s grace period to gtfo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a million red rings is area denial. > > > > > > > > because its not balanced in the game, multi tagging loot from afar no-risk strategy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hyperbolic but yes ranged ground targeted sustained aoes are also a form of area denial and they are what makes scourge so good for wvw. So what? > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't even get me started on whats wrong with Scourge if you're wanting to talk AOE denial, when the enemy zerg can walk freely on a carpet of their own AOE rings and you can't get anywhere near them before they shift those AOE's all on top of you and you just insta-melt. Plus the scourge does actual boon hate because it converts boons into conditions (you know...more damage) while their skills still do additional damage, meanwhile warrior's is more of a boon dislike and just strips boons for next to no damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > > > > > > > so how many scourges are there to sb's. > > > > > > > > assuming wvwers choose the strongest strategy, and scourge is over represented > > > > > > > > which needs balance. > > > > > > > > if bubble counters scourge as it allows melee..... > > > > > > > > come on people. > > > > > > > > its not rocket science. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > False dilemma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also WoD doesn't counter scourge it counters boons and boon reliant specs like firebrand. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another overly represented class in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > I think scourge area denial is a harder thing to change satisfactorily because the entire spec is designed around area denial. Firebrand has a similar problem; the entire spec is designed to be the best support in pretty much every way. Can't change just one thing. The funny thing about spellbreaker is that all of its role as the ultimate boon hate spec is concentrated in one skill so it's easier to work on from a design standpoint. > > > > > > > > > > As I've said before the boon strip by itself isn't what makes WoD so strong, it's the boon denial. If WoD were just a big null field I don't think it would be an issue. > > > > > > > > Lol SB is ultimate boon hate spec? As I said it's just boon dislike, Scourge is ultimate boon hate because most of it's boon strips don't strip boons it converts them to conditions so it actually punishes you for your boons and sometimes gives the boons to themselves, SB just says I'd rather you not have those boons. Scourge gets to do most of that from range, while warrior has to be on top of you to do any of it. Also one of Warrior's larger areas for boon dislike are now from hard CC's which if the enemy has stability lol nothing happens you just removed a stack of stability, Scourge doesn't care about stability for it's boon hate. If that doesn't say that Scourge is ultimate boon hate idk what does. Also I'd much much rather fight in an enemy SB bubble for 1 minute than fight in Scourge AoE for 20 seconds. > > > > > > Yeah I'd say spellbreakers unique mechanic is the ultimate form of boon hate. > > > > > > I'll take fighting inside scourge aoe over fighting inside a bubble any day. > > > > Which mechanic are you talking about is the ultimate form of boon hate? If you're talking about WoD's disenchantment debuff it's now only 4 seconds, on a 90 second CD, with a 2.5 second warning...such an "ultimate form of boon hate." I would much rather not have any boons than have my boons converted into conditions. While the scourges get to maintain their boon hate through a fight a warrior doesn't have anything they can maintain for boon dislike as much as a Scourge. > > Yeah the boon denial debuff. My point was that that debuff is the ultimate form of boon hate but spellbreakers only got it on their elite while pretty much everything else about spellbreaker is meh. Whereas everything problematic about firebrands and scourges is spread out amongst their class mechanic utilities elites and traits which is what makes them hard to tone down properly compared to spellbreakers. It's not OP it's 4 seconds of no boons (except those that you already have, and you'll only lose 4 of them through those 4 seconds IF you stay in the bubble). And they've now pretty much made SB pretty useless and meh compared to those other 2 professions, the other 2 should have been fixed WELL before they even looked at our 1 skill. WoD isn't the problem it's 1 AoE that used to last 10 seconds in a world of AoE spam that is a heck of allot more than WoD. As I've said SB isn't boon hate it's boon dislike the boon denial far better than being punished like a scourge can do for boons. You can make a scourge that literally corrupts boons into conditions with pretty much every skill it does while making itself stronger and stealing your boons that my friend is boon hate. It also plays very well off it's core traits for the boon hatred that they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazySummer.2568 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. and the counterplay to boon spam now is to stack more scourges (and more boon spam fbs) which is pretty poor balance wise in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo.1054 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I'd say that the nerf makes sense and emphasizes on the team having to really play with that bubble to keep the enemy inside and if they succeed in it, they get well rewarded. Duration of bubble was definitely too long and area denial potential too big with that. What they could do with given nerfs is reduce the cast time slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > It's not OP it's 4 seconds of no boons (except those that you already have, and you'll only lose 4 of them through those 4 seconds IF you stay in the bubble). And they've now pretty much made SB pretty useless and meh compared to those other 2 professions, the other 2 should have been fixed WELL before they even looked at our 1 skill. WoD isn't the problem it's 1 AoE that used to last 10 seconds in a world of AoE spam that is a heck of allot more than WoD. As I've said SB isn't boon hate it's boon dislike the boon denial far better than being punished like a scourge can do for boons. You can make a scourge that literally corrupts boons into conditions with pretty much every skill it does while making itself stronger and stealing your boons that my friend is boon hate. It also plays very well off it's core traits for the boon hatred that they have. 4 seconds now was 10. Can be chained by multiple spellbreakers one after another completely shutting down one particular area. Can alternatively be carpet bombed over a large area to force people to completely evacuate the zone or risk getting completely demolished by AoEs. By comparison Scourge's Breach is 5s and I think it's still considered to be one of the stronger elites in the game because it can be stacked or chained in the same way as WoD and synergizes extremely well with WoD. WoD was and still is insanely strong in organized play because even 4s without support against a good group can mean death. Again the boon strip isn't the issue, if that's all it did I would say keep it at 10s, boon strip is annoying but it's pretty easy to deal with in an organized group, the boon denial stuff is the real threat and it has no counterplay except to gtfo the bubble because it's a "player state" which cannot be cleansed. As I said before Scourge and Firebrand are harder to fix because it's like everything they've got is a little too good for group play and all their stuff scales really well into medium and large scale fights whereas Spellbreaker is good for small scale and mostly terrible for medium to large scale except for the Elite which is insanely strong at all scales of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Haired Savage.5430 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > It's not OP it's 4 seconds of no boons (except those that you already have, and you'll only lose 4 of them through those 4 seconds IF you stay in the bubble). And they've now pretty much made SB pretty useless and meh compared to those other 2 professions, the other 2 should have been fixed WELL before they even looked at our 1 skill. WoD isn't the problem it's 1 AoE that used to last 10 seconds in a world of AoE spam that is a heck of allot more than WoD. As I've said SB isn't boon hate it's boon dislike the boon denial far better than being punished like a scourge can do for boons. You can make a scourge that literally corrupts boons into conditions with pretty much every skill it does while making itself stronger and stealing your boons that my friend is boon hate. It also plays very well off it's core traits for the boon hatred that they have. > > 4 seconds now was 10. Can be chained by multiple spellbreakers one after another completely shutting down one particular area. Can alternatively be carpet bombed over a large area to force people to completely evacuate the zone or risk getting completely demolished by AoEs. By comparison Scourge's Breach is 5s and I think it's still considered to be one of the stronger elites in the game because it can be stacked or chained in the same way as WoD and synergizes extremely well with WoD. WoD was and still is insanely strong in organized play because even 4s without support against a good group can mean death. Again the boon strip isn't the issue, if that's all it did I would say keep it at 10s, boon strip is annoying but it's pretty easy to deal with in an organized group, the boon denial stuff is the real threat and it has no counterplay except to gtfo the bubble because it's a "player state" which cannot be cleansed. > > As I said before Scourge and Firebrand are harder to fix because it's like everything they've got is a little too good for group play and all their stuff scales really well into medium and large scale fights whereas Spellbreaker is good for small scale and mostly terrible for medium to large scale except for the Elite which is insanely strong at all scales of play. If what scourge and firebrand have are a little too good it can be nerfed...if it can be built it can be nerfed, and at this point they should be nerfed.. You just have to take 1 look at a zerg to see what the OP classes are and what commanders are usually asking for. While WoD "can be chained or carpet bombed" over an area you don't see that, you see Scourges carpet bombing and chaining their AoE's. As I've said before I'd rather go without my boons than to be punished for them which is what scourge does while SB just stops the boons, it actually probably helps you because it's not getting corrupted into a condition and killing you that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Limodriver.4106" said: > whats next? REV nerf? aoe hitting 5 targets for 15000 from 1200 range is too OP. Out of curiosity, what is it you think needs to be nerfed? Hammer 3? That's telegraphed like kitten. Hammer 5? You don't even have to hit the dodge key, you can run out of its AoE; the only way a Rev hits anyone with that is if he predicts where they will be in 1.25 seconds, and so any kills derived from it are well earned. There is no question that Revenant hits like a truck, but it hits slow, so DPS is about on par with other professions, not to mention that upkeep abilities might force the Rev to just spam Hammer 1 all the while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. Thank you for replying and putting forth your reasoning! In light of this nuance, I think I can come to terms a little more with the nerf, however please think about or consider this detail if you haven't already: Removing the initial pulse essentially takes one second off the duration, meaning it's more of a 4 second aoe. Was this your intention? 4 seconds of area denial with ample counterplay (you can see the warrior casting it too, so you now have a 2.5 second tell) locked behind a 1.5 second cast and 90 second cooldown seems a bit undertuned in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > If what scourge and firebrand have are a little too good it can be nerfed...if it can be built it can be nerfed, and at this point they should be nerfed.. I don't disagree I think they need to be nerfed but I think WoD needed to get nerfed first. >You just have to take 1 look at a zerg to see what the OP classes are and what commanders are usually asking for. Well I don't know who you play with or who you have been following since PoF release but in my experience spellbreakers have been in very high demand in both the guild raids and the public squads I've been a part of since PoF release. I've personally run into many organized groups since PoF release running 5+ spellbreakers in squads of 20+ and some running as many as 15 out of 20. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that 90 percent of the fights I've been in since PoF release (thousands no doubt) have been decided by bubble usage either offensively or defensively. >While WoD "can be chained or carpet bombed" over an area you don't see that, you see Scourges carpet bombing and chaining their AoE's. Again I don't know what guild you play with or what server you play on etc but I have been seeing just those sorts of WoD tactics used by every organized guild and indeed most of the public tag zergs I've faced on both EU and NA since PoF release so I don't know what to tell you. >As I've said before I'd rather go without my boons than to be punished for them which is what scourge does while SB just stops the boons, it actually probably helps you because it's not getting corrupted into a condition and killing you that way. Ofcourse you're entitled to have your preferences as are we all but I happen to think you're horribly misguided on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamarc.7463 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Arcaedus.7290" said: > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. > > Thank you for replying and putting forth your reasoning! In light of this nuance, I think I can come to terms a little more with the nerf, however please think about or consider this detail if you haven't already: > > Removing the initial pulse essentially takes one second off the duration, meaning it's more of a 4 second aoe. Was this your intention? 4 seconds of area denial with ample counterplay (you can see the warrior casting it too, so you now have a 2.5 second tell) locked behind a 1.5 second cast and 90 second cooldown seems a bit undertuned in my opinion. If it is undertuned then people will stop taking WoD in favor of skills like warbanner, or another profession entirely. In my experience groups are still running spellbreakers and those spellbreakers are still running WoD, so it suggests the nerf was not overdone. It has only been a week since the nerf so we'll see if this remains the case over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 just swapped to berserker, wow the price of condi gear ... if that doesn't say its still over demand .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
googel.3278 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 lots of warriors crying over WoD, keep it up! More nerfs for ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 that's...... balance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Haired Savage.5430 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > If what scourge and firebrand have are a little too good it can be nerfed...if it can be built it can be nerfed, and at this point they should be nerfed.. > > I don't disagree I think they need to be nerfed but I think WoD needed to get nerfed first. > > >You just have to take 1 look at a zerg to see what the OP classes are and what commanders are usually asking for. > > Well I don't know who you play with or who you have been following since PoF release but in my experience spellbreakers have been in very high demand in both the guild raids and the public squads I've been a part of since PoF release. I've personally run into many organized groups since PoF release running 5+ spellbreakers in squads of 20+ and some running as many as 15 out of 20. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that 90 percent of the fights I've been in since PoF release (thousands no doubt) have been decided by bubble usage either offensively or defensively. > > >While WoD "can be chained or carpet bombed" over an area you don't see that, you see Scourges carpet bombing and chaining their AoE's. > > Again I don't know what guild you play with or what server you play on etc but I have been seeing just those sorts of WoD tactics used by every organized guild and indeed most of the public tag zergs I've faced on both EU and NA since PoF release so I don't know what to tell you. > > >As I've said before I'd rather go without my boons than to be punished for them which is what scourge does while SB just stops the boons, it actually probably helps you because it's not getting corrupted into a condition and killing you that way. > > Ofcourse you're entitled to have your preferences as are we all but I happen to think you're horribly misguided on this one. > And why does WoD need nerfed first? The most OP things should be nerfed first, then you know where you stand. As for organized zergs I'll usually see around 2-3 in a group of 25 with a FB in each sub party and scourges making up the bulk of the zerg. I'm not sure who you're running with if you're seeing 5+ in a squad of 20+, most commanders I've been seeing have been asking for more FB's and Scourges. As for the last part simple logic tells me that having no boons is safer than having them turned against me and into conditions which adds more damage hitting me, and if you're arguing that you need stability to get out of issues a simple stun break usually does the trick (even ones without stability). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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