Israel.7056 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > And why does WoD need nerfed first? I think it was the most broken single skill in the game. I think boon denial is still broken but the decreased duration does make the skill a lot less oppressive so I'll take it. >The most OP things should be nerfed first, then you know where you stand. I think WoD was the single most OP thing in the game since PoF launched. Scourge and FB are not OP because of any one skill it's a combination of things and the synergy they have with one another that makes them OP. >As for organized zergs I'll usually see around 2-3 in a group of 25 with a FB in each sub party and scourges making up the bulk of the zerg. The meta comp was Guard, Rev, Scourge, Spellbreaker, whatever. People might start dropping Spellbreakers in favor of something else now I think it depends on what they're trying to do, my guild is still running them though. >I'm not sure who you're running with if you're seeing 5+ in a squad of 20+, most commanders I've been seeing have been asking for more FB's and Scourges. Even before the nerf? >As for the last part simple logic tells me that having no boons is safer than having them turned against me and into conditions which adds more damage hitting me Well the logic here is sound but I believe your assumptions are incorrect. Incorrect Assumption 1 is that scourges are running condi which hasn't been true since the dhuumfire nerf. Meta scourge is power now. Incorrect Assumption 2 is that converted condis can't either be cleared or resisted faster than they can be applied outside of a bubble, they easily can. Incorrect Assumption 3 is that boons cannot be reapplied faster than they can be stripped or corrupted outside of a bubble, which they can be. >and if you're arguing that you need stability to get out of issues a simple stun break usually does the trick (even ones without stability). Single stun breaks by themselves were usually insufficient to survive a good bubble bomb in my experience. Usually it would take me multiple stun breaks and condi clears, at least one dodge sometimes two and possibly a mobile evade like Surge of the Mists to get out of even one good bubbled bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Nope, no Spellbreakers out there any more Why, they're hardly even half the roamer count any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substance E.4852 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > And why does WoD need nerfed first? Because it completely dictated the flow of battle so much that pushing into a bubble was basically suicide against a force as large as yours. It also rendered virtually all forms of projectile ranged attacks useless in large group fights due to the overwhelming amount of them and when combined with chokes. It's essentially PoF's version of the pre nerfed Dragon Hunter immob gates skill. Something that was so insanely powerful for controlling movement of your enemies and promoting pirate ship that people just quit the mode and will probably never come back. It was an OP skill and this was evident from the Beta Weekend. It's an embarrassment that it took this long to address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiawal.2351 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"Substance E.4852" said: > > It was an OP skill and this was evident from the Beta Weekend. It's an embarrassment that it took this long to address. Indeed. The reaction speed from the balance team when it comes to fixing skills that are broken in a WvW environment it's abysmal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenaNet Staff Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 Posted October 23, 2018 ArenaNet Staff Share Posted October 23, 2018 To follow up: Because WoD has had such a tremendous impact in WvW it is imposisble to tease out the nuance of a perfect reduction for everyone. When an ability is so hefty that we have to cull a big part of it we have to keep an eye on it in and watch how things shake out and what direction they're moving in. So we're doing that when we're playing, discussing with you both in-game and out, through stream watching, and forum reading (so thank you for the constructive feedback). It may be that the 2.5s delay before it starts stripping boons is too long. Or that the CD for its impact is prohibitive. If so we'll look to adjust them accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > To follow up: > > Because WoD has had such a tremendous impact in WvW it is imposisble to tease out the nuance of a perfect reduction for everyone. When an ability is so hefty that we have to cull a big part of it we have to keep an eye on it in and watch how things shake out and what direction they're moving in. > > So we're doing that when we're playing, discussing with you both in-game and out, through stream watching, and forum reading (so thank you for the constructive feedback). > > It may be that the 2.5s delay before it starts stripping boons is too long. Or that the CD for its impact is prohibitive. If so we'll look to adjust them accordingly. As someone who mains Spellbreaker in WvW, while respecting your original decision to nerf the skill, here are my suggestions for a "perfect reduction": Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. Cast time reduced to from 1 + 1/2 second to simply 1/2 second. Since the original idea for this nerf was to allow for more counterplay by allowing the players inside of the bubble a one second grace period, the original concept for a long cast time which would allow for counterplay is now too much combined with the extra counterplay time you added. Reducing the cast time by a second seems fair, since everyone else has an extra second now too. The cooldown reduction is a response to the heavy duration nerf from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. In my opinion a 33% cooldown reduction is a fair response to the 50% duration nerf. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Or put it back to 10 seconds duration and get rid of the projectile hate and the boon denial and just make it a big aoe boon strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > > To follow up: > > > > Because WoD has had such a tremendous impact in WvW it is imposisble to tease out the nuance of a perfect reduction for everyone. When an ability is so hefty that we have to cull a big part of it we have to keep an eye on it in and watch how things shake out and what direction they're moving in. > > > > So we're doing that when we're playing, discussing with you both in-game and out, through stream watching, and forum reading (so thank you for the constructive feedback). > > > > It may be that the 2.5s delay before it starts stripping boons is too long. Or that the CD for its impact is prohibitive. If so we'll look to adjust them accordingly. > > As someone who mains Spellbreaker in WvW, while respecting your original decision to nerf the skill, here are my suggestions for a "perfect reduction": > > Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. > Cast time reduced to from 1 + 1/2 second to simply 1/2 second. > > Since the original idea for this nerf was to allow for more counterplay by allowing the players inside of the bubble a one second grace period, the original concept for a long cast time which would allow for counterplay is now too much combined with the extra counterplay time you added. Reducing the cast time by a second seems fair, since everyone else has an extra second now too. > > The cooldown reduction is a response to the heavy duration nerf from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. In my opinion a 33% cooldown reduction is a fair response to the 50% duration nerf. > > Thank you. Cast time shouldn't be any lower than 1 second. Its still a very powerful skill when used well, significantly too powerful to be anything less than a 1 second cast. 2 seconds is still a pretty long time for someone to react against it, but the reason for the 1 second delay as stated by @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" is that the first strip happened before the effect was even visible, which is honestly a pretty bullshit mechanic. If the delay is too long with a 1 sec cast, then ANet should consider reducing the first interval to 1/2 second (and possibly moving up when the effect starts to show up in the cast), and then leave it at that. But anything less than 1 sec cast for this is broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > > > To follow up: > > > > > > Because WoD has had such a tremendous impact in WvW it is imposisble to tease out the nuance of a perfect reduction for everyone. When an ability is so hefty that we have to cull a big part of it we have to keep an eye on it in and watch how things shake out and what direction they're moving in. > > > > > > So we're doing that when we're playing, discussing with you both in-game and out, through stream watching, and forum reading (so thank you for the constructive feedback). > > > > > > It may be that the 2.5s delay before it starts stripping boons is too long. Or that the CD for its impact is prohibitive. If so we'll look to adjust them accordingly. > > > > As someone who mains Spellbreaker in WvW, while respecting your original decision to nerf the skill, here are my suggestions for a "perfect reduction": > > > > Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. > > Cast time reduced to from 1 + 1/2 second to simply 1/2 second. > > > > Since the original idea for this nerf was to allow for more counterplay by allowing the players inside of the bubble a one second grace period, the original concept for a long cast time which would allow for counterplay is now too much combined with the extra counterplay time you added. Reducing the cast time by a second seems fair, since everyone else has an extra second now too. > > > > The cooldown reduction is a response to the heavy duration nerf from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. In my opinion a 33% cooldown reduction is a fair response to the 50% duration nerf. > > > > Thank you. > > Cast time shouldn't be any lower than 1 second. Its still a very powerful skill when used well, significantly too powerful to be anything less than a 1 second cast. 2 seconds is still a pretty long time for someone to react against it, but the reason for the 1 second delay as stated by @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" is that the first strip happened before the effect was even visible, which is honestly a pretty kitten mechanic. If the delay is too long with a 1 sec cast, then ANet should consider reducing the first interval to 1/2 second (and possibly moving up when the effect starts to show up in the cast), and then leave it at that. But anything less than 1 sec cast for this is broken I suppose you might be right about a 1/2 cast being too fast, so in hindsight I will have to agree with you that a 1 second cast would be more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > But anything less than 1 sec cast for this is broken Or maybe not? In order to successfully place WoD, warrior has to use stances so they don't get obliterated/interrupted immediately. So maybe if the skill is left on longer CD (90 sec), the cast time could be reduced to 3/4 or 1/2 second. In the end, it doesn't matter for enemy team, the bubble will pop up anyway, it's just nice balance change for warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naix.8156 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"Ronnie Hu.1694" said: > how do they know the balance of the wvw ? we hoD play from tier1 to tier4, i dont see anet play the wvw alot. There are a couple of devs that raid in WvW in NA and often have streamed when they are raiding. Also the nerf to WoD didn't just come out of left field here. There certainly has been players asking the devs to take a look at WoD for sometime now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
googel.3278 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"Tiawal.2351" said: > > @"Substance E.4852" said: > > > > It was an OP skill and this was evident from the Beta Weekend. It's an embarrassment that it took this long to address. > > Indeed. The reaction speed from the balance team when it comes to fixing skills that are broken in a WvW environment it's abysmal. > > Balance team too busy hunting for skins and are role players who cant do pvp or wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naix.8156 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > and the counterplay to boon spam now is to stack more scourges (and more boon spam fbs) which is pretty poor balance wise in my opinion This really is always going to be the case since the boon hemorrhaging ~~distilled strain of AIDS~~ power creep that was injected into the game with HoT. PoF looks to be designed largely to hard counter much of the HoT competitive meta which was built on a disproportionately high amount of boon sources (further exacerbated by long durations, low cds, many AoE sources) as compared to boon strip, conversion or denial. The warrior's WoD was the easiest nerf, as Scourge and FB are going to be much trickier to sort out. For example even with a heavy handed nerf to FB just means that groups will go back to stacking two per party. A nerf (depending on the specifics) to Scourges may push groups to go back to stacking on survivability and grinding down opponents (ala HoT style). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > But anything less than 1 sec cast for this is broken > > Or maybe not? In order to successfully place WoD, warrior has to use stances so they don't get obliterated/interrupted immediately. > So maybe if the skill is left on longer CD (90 sec), the cast time could be reduced to 3/4 or 1/2 second. > In the end, it doesn't matter for enemy team, the bubble will pop up anyway, it's just nice balance change for warrior. Or, in other words, the warrior will have to actually plan using what is still a very powerful area denial skill, otherwise it could be interrupted. That is GOOD balance. That's how it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 > @"googel.3278" said: > > @"Tiawal.2351" said: > > > @"Substance E.4852" said: > > > > > > It was an OP skill and this was evident from the Beta Weekend. It's an embarrassment that it took this long to address. > > > > Indeed. The reaction speed from the balance team when it comes to fixing skills that are broken in a WvW environment it's abysmal. > > > > > > Balance team too busy hunting for skins and are role players who cant do pvp or wvw. > They play WvW. They don't run with their tag on usually...that's basically asking to be hunted mercilessly for the entire duration of their gaming session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 well if they do play , they will notice there arent any sb's left so goodness knows how they will evaluate the changes. there weren't many to start with.......(clue there....) the massive cast time meant it had to be planned for, the fact you had to use all utilities to get it off meant it had to be built for. even if the cast time is shortened I wont be going back to sb. 60% is way over the top, making it easier to play isnt the answer. SB was a one trick pony and to get the bubbles off took a fair amount of understanding of the ebb and flow. sorry to see it go. lets all go scourge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Miko.4158" said: > well if they do play , they will notice there arent any sb's left so goodness knows how they will evaluate the changes. Well that's just a straight up lie. Spellbreakers are still in use and well placed bubbles are still keystone to winning fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > well if they do play , they will notice there arent any sb's left so goodness knows how they will evaluate the changes. > > > Well that's just a straight up lie. Spellbreakers are still in use and well placed bubbles are still keystone to winning fights. Yup still running into guilds running 5+ spellbreakers not much has changed from what I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > @"Miko.4158" said: > > well if they do play , they will notice there arent any sb's left so goodness knows how they will evaluate the changes. > > > Well that's just a straight up lie. Spellbreakers are still in use and well placed bubbles are still keystone to winning fights. I'll rephrase ours have gone. you'd need to see across alot of servers to know for sure. 5+ out of 60.... we may have 2, but one was me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I should probably point out our server wasn't the first to use the obvious counter. wait it out. but once you've seen it done, its pretty easy. be interesting to see the sever take up rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > But anything less than 1 sec cast for this is broken > > Or maybe not? In order to successfully place WoD, warrior has to use stances so they don't get obliterated/interrupted immediately. > So maybe if the skill is left on longer CD (90 sec), the cast time could be reduced to 3/4 or 1/2 second. > In the end, it doesn't matter for enemy team, the bubble will pop up anyway, it's just nice balance change for warrior. Having to use a few utilities to run headlong into 60+ players who see you coming ...You do know most classes couldn't do that even if they dropped _everything_ on the approach? We've given an unstoppable (for long enough to deliver WoD) class a skill that must be avoided by everyone. I'm not even sure how a cast time affects this skill negatively as they're immune to everything during the approach. Just hit the button a second earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 The monkey push with stances thing isn't the pro approach but it can still work because stances are still kinda crazy. the pro approach is chain veil in drop bubbles right on their face so they're dead before they even know what's up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I'd prefer it to be ranged aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > The monkey push with stances thing isn't the pro approach but it can still work because stances are still kinda crazy. the pro approach is chain veil in drop bubbles right on their face so they're dead before they even know what's up. Top end gameplay discussion feels out of place here When we talk about Www application in average it's the allah-hu-ahkbar warrior running in to bubble and trading it's life to do so... And how weird it is that the warriors themselves would want this as their role. <,< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 angles! the same way a tag feels a blob before choosing the in. its alot of fun and takes alot of practice. you dont always die. the pro approach has no mention of timings ... discounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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