Personal DPS and other self-tracking

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think there is hang up here; you're big sell for a DPS meter is about self- improvement ... but the result you get from a DPS meter is so dependent on team interaction that it's a flawed idea it could ever do that for you.

 

The more practical and realistic answer is that the 'technical' side of improvement is already done ... the builds are available, with the rotations. Anything else beyond that is experience and practice and the DPS meter isn't going to help you with that because how you play is just way to dependent on how well your team plays also.

 

If people were to use a DPS meter correctly, It would be to see what kind of numbers they get and conclude that those numbers reflect the performance of their **team**, not themselves.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> >

> > You refuse to believe me but have no reasom for doing so other than it doesnt fit your personal opinion. I assure you I was hitting 70 to 80 benchmark on golem but doing 8k on vg. Moving so much to avoid blues ect kitten up my timing that badly and I didnt realise at all until I looked at a dps meter.

>

> My reason for doing so is that it seems unrealistic. On the one hand, you have touched on the best argument for DPS meters improving players (which is increasing the awareness of DPS as a concept to the general playerbase, which is possible but iffy), and your experience with weaver reflects the experience that a lot of people have, myself included. However, the one thing that doesn't make sense is the projection. Even without knowing that you weren't doing the best on weaver, players generally improve as they play the game. Knowing the proper rotation of skills and repeating content over and over again _should_ have increased your skill level. To say that it not only didn't but never would is... unusual.

>

> There is remarkable dissonance to claim that the strategies you practiced over and over again weren't being implemented in the rest of the game, or that they didn't improve upon your abilities in any way. It's like saying that doing all of your homework and assignments for a class perfectly didn't prepare you for a test, because the concepts all faded away the moment you walked into the class. Theoretically possible, but hard to explain how it could keep happening over and over again.

>

Theres a massive difference between practicing on a static golem that never moves or has mechanics to translating that to a real time raid. golem prepared me almost 100% for cairn and mo ill give you that since they are basically golem with a skin. Other boss fights you have to deal with mechanics and like i said I thought I wss prepared and doing well but in real time dodging and moving impacted me alot. I didnt forget my rotation. There were just other things I hadnt factored in that golem didnt teach me and dps meter did.

 

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > If you cant find any guidance from a meter then you are either not using it to its full potential or are the best player in the game.

> >

> > Dmg on trash mobs is totally irrelevant in this game and honesly if we are having a serious discussion about the value of monitoring dps performance then you should already know this.

>

> You don't find guidance from a meter. You find guidance from guides. The meter just gives statistics and what you currently did. Also, I wish that damage on trash mobs was irrelevant, but it is only thus if everyone unanimously agrees. However, one of the two times I was win-kicked was because I didn't do good damage on trash mobs.

>

Information on where you made mistakes isnt guidance? Not everyone needs step by step hand holding to get better. Sometimes just pointing to weak areas is enough.

 

Trash mob dps is irrelevant. If you were kicked for that then the kicker was an idiot.

Also you might not know since you dont play anymore but noone even kills most trash these days. You just skip past or ignore everything. There are small parts of encoubters where killing trash is mandatory but its so infrequent that dps on trash is as i said irrelevant.

 

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > Yes exactly. Installing a dps meter doesnt magically make you better. It DOES give you a tool that will firstly inform you that you are either doing poorely or well. It will then give you a breakdown of where you or your team is going wrong. It is obvioisly then up to you to either work to fix the problem or ignore it. Dps meter is a tool, one which gives feedback that you cant recieve anywhere else that you can use to improve.

> >

> > I had no feedback previously that I was interrupting key skills in my rotation and causing kitten dps. I used the dps meter as a tool to learn this and then used my skills to correct it. Without the tool I would have remained ignorant.

 

noone ever ever said that dps meters on their own without other information will improve you. you obviously have to understand the game to play it well.

its a tool that gives you information that you cant get inside game. thats it. but if you use that info you can improve yourself more than if you never had the info. how is this hard to understand.

 

if your argument is dps doesnt give you information you cant already get ingame through natural learning then thats just factually incorrect. Im starting to doubt you have used the logs feature...

>

> That is sort of the point that I'm trying to make. A meter is a good tool for measuring performance, but an entire world of information and theory craft needs to exist before any significant improvements can be made. Otherwise you're awash in an aimless ocean of numbers. If you're smart you can theory craft on your own, but that will require a lot of testing, a lot of skill, and good hardware.

>

> The thing is, you should have had feedback for interrupting skills. They'll either go on a 5 second cooldown, or they won't fire off most of their projectiles, or the animation will abruptly change without the skill firing off. I can see every time Pyroclastic Blast mysteriously doesn't work.

 

alot of ele skills go on full cooldown when cancelled. switching attunements hides cds of skills not in that attunement. visual noise is a thing and makes it hard for some people to distinguish effects from one another. maybe its not a problem for you. but it obviously was for me.

>

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > Then why on earth are you arguing about the state of a game you dont even play. @.@

> >

> > Balance is in a great spot atm with most builds doing comeptitive dps so groups are not strict on which dps they bring. Like I said ive never seen a restriction requiring only thieves or revs in EU.

>

> Even if I am not currently playing the game a lot, I still have a vested interest in the current state and the projected state of the game. Likewise, I still possess the the desire to wax philosophy about the game, as evidence by my being here. It's within my right, after all, to offer my thoughts on the matter.

 

im not saying you cant be invested. im saying you are arguing about things that dont even apply to the current state anymore.

>

> Balance is indeed good at the moment. Except for Scourge. If we're discussing the philosophy of meters and the impact it has on peoples behavior, then we can't ignore that when balance is slightly more off than current, we see discrimination. Balance is a fickle thing, and if tides shift we'll see discrimination again.

>

scourge is fine. its the 2nd most desired healer, is mandarory on 1 encounter, pug meta on 2 others and incredibly useful on every other boss if you need the support.

 

again this just showa you are out of touch with the current state. scourge is a healer now so its condi build isnt wanted. its still accepted and taken in most pugs as a healer.

>

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> >

> > I already said player OR HIS TEAMMATES. The actual encounter and therefor the source of the damage remains static. Again you are missing the point. Ofc everyone knows they want to upkeep scholar as much as possible. This almost never happens though due to mistakes. The dps meter is a TOOL that will point exaclt where and when these mistakes are happening. The player can then focus on imrpoving their gameplay in these targeted areas to upmeep scholar.

> >

> > Without that tool they firstly cant even know what their actual scholar uptime was. And secondly have no idea where they are going wrong unless they sit and watch combat log during an active fight..not realistic.

>

> My point is that you already know what to do and where it goes wrong: Keep maximum health, it goes wrong when you get hit. It's not rocket science. Knowing the precise time isn't important when you know the ideal time (100%) and are actively looking to reduce damage/get healed to keep it up. Having a meter tell you the exact duration is cool, but not particularly helpful.

 

Knowing the precise time you got hit is incredibly important when you are looking to reduce getting hit...

 

Its starting to be obvious you will never change your mind nomatter how many ppl throw evidence or arguments otherwise at you. maybe you dont find dps meter helpful to improve. thats fine. but other people do. and its come to the point where you are literally telling people they are wrong about their own personal experimeces. just because it doesnt fit your experince doesnt mean its untrue or meters are worthless.

 

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I don't think there is hang up here; you're big sell for a DPS meter is about self- improvement ... but the result you get from a DPS meter is so dependent on how you interact with your team and the game that it's a flawed idea it could ever do that for you.

 

Well, I've been using meters for about 10 years and I don't find anything about this game that would deem it unhelpful. And jumping into fractals proved to be rediculously easy (after half the community told me it was hard and people I play with tried to convince me I'd die a lot and that WoW doesn't compare somehow). For people who would rather bring less people to a fractal if we can trust the teammates and speak over discord... I think we know what we're talking about when we say that "a quality dps meter helps us". I don't have any further arguments for you. I don't think you care to change your mind. That's ok.

 

Your arguments have convinced no one here that has used meters before that they don't assist us or are useless.

[Obtena.7952]

Again, these are not accurate tools and will not tell you much about your own performance, ESPECIALLY in the DPS area where in this game, you depend so much on your team mates to boost it or provide you with damage mitigation to execute rotations as perfectly as possible. You could use dps meter for 100 years ... that doesn't mean you know about how this game works and how DPS meters here would help you.

 

Likewise, your arguments haven't convinced the people that understand how this game works that we need any more than we already have to evaluate performance.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Good thing none of my arguments say meters don't assist or are useless then. Again, these are not accurate tools and will not tell you much about your own performance, ESPECIALLY in the DPS area where in this game, you depend so much on your team mates to boost it or provide you with damage mitigation to execute rotations possible. You could use dps meter for 100 years ... that doesn't mean you know about how this game works and how DPS meters here would help you.

 

Well I don't believe you and you haven't convinced me otherwise, because again... a meter could track whether or not someone is giving out boons properly. Could track what boons you have and for how long and when... It could actually track group and team related aspect of the game, far more than damage. (Because again, if read the posts from earlier, I mad it clear that a DPS meter is not just damage tracking).

 

You can tell me I don't know how to play, but that's not much of an argument... We're just bantering at that point.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> where in this game, you depend so much on your team mates to boost it

 

So if my dps starts to suck, and I notice I don't have the right boons from someone... I could actually say, "hey bud, be a team player". Or would that be elitist at that point? Because I ultimately used a meter to figure out who to call out because they were doing their job standing in the back auto-attacking...

[Obtena.7952]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > where in this game, you depend so much on your team mates to boost it

>

> So if my dps starts to suck, and I notice I don't have the right boons from someone... I could actually say, "hey bud, be a team player". Or would that be elitist at that point? Because I ultimately used a meter to figure out who to call out because they were doing their job standing in the back auto-attacking...

 

No, it wouldn't be elitist, it would just be ridiculous. It's not like you have time to pause and see what's going on and see if you have a buff, figure out who's not giving it to you and tell them you want it. You assumed you didn't have that buff because your team mate didn't give it to you. That's not the only reason you might not have it; it could be your fault. Also, if someone is just AA in the back, you don't need a DPS meter to see that ... nor does that mean you won't be successful as a team.

 

See, you finally hit the nail on the head ... you want a DPS meter to police your team mates; it's not about individual improvement. DPs meter doesn't tell you what's actually important about your performance. it just shows the results of how you AND YOUR TEAM are affecting your performance. If you want to analyze performance and do something so detailed like what buffs you had when, etc ... a real time DPS meter just isn't the right tool for that. Like I've been saying, it's way to insufficient to allow you to assess in real time what's going on. In fact, just looking at what's happening is enough; you don't need a meter to tell you don't have a buff, or you missed a dodge, or whatever. You see it, you feel it, you hear it.

 

Honestly, I can't think of any reason to replace the interactions of your senses and observational skills with a DPS meter. I mean, it really feels like you just want to replace your observational skill and decision making with something that spits a number at you. I can see from a dev's POV why I would never vote to have a DPS meter ingame.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > where in this game, you depend so much on your team mates to boost it

> >

> > So if my dps starts to suck, and I notice I don't have the right boons from someone... I could actually say, "hey bud, be a team player". Or would that be elitist at that point? Because I ultimately used a meter to figure out who to call out because they were doing their job standing in the back auto-attacking...

>

> No, it wouldn't be elitist, it would just be ridiculous. If someone is just AA in the back, you don't need a DPS meter to see that ... nor does that mean you won't be successful as a team.

>

> See, you finally hit the nail on the head ... you want a DPS meter to police your team mates; it's not about individual improvement.

 

Oh yeah, obviously! You got me!

 

It's to prove a point. As in this case it's valid right? Not elitist? To see a flaw in the group and try to correct it? I didn't talk about policing, I'm talking about improvement. (Maybe the auto-attacking guy won't improve, but the guy not buffing the team can be shown that we care about his boons)

 

In fact, someone might say a good strategy for ensuring group success? Or helping someone understand that their boon matters? Giving me, a leader, a tool for finding who can benefit from my insight? "Hey, obtena, you're not really giving us this boon. Why is that?"

 

"Oh I don't have that spec. I play this way."

 

"Oh ok, because we specifically asked for someone who doesn't play that way."

 

At that point ,what do you do? If it's affecting a rage timer or group success? What do you propose happens? Someone ELSE accomodate the player who lied? Kick the player for lying? Ask the player to change? (Of course, if you ask them to change they might come to the forums here and cry elitism. Huh, weird.)

 

Here's another example, that player says "oh I got caught up in mechanics"... Response "can someone less important to the group boons help obtena with mechanics? We need obtena to be on boons." Solution, amazing.

 

Instead of having a productive conversation, you want to twist things into something that sounds bad immediately. Stop trolling mate. This is absurd.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> To see a flaw in the group and try to correct it? I didn't talk about policing, I'm talking about improvement. (Maybe the auto-attacking guy won't improve, but the guy not buffing the team can be shown that we care about his boons)

 

It's not a flaw though ... the likelihood you need that buff to succeed is very low; the threshold for succeeding in this game is not high. Do NOT associate playing at the highest optimal level with being the only way to success in this game. If there is a flaw, it's in the idea you NEED to play optimally. This is your WoW baggage and it doesn't apply here.

 

If you want to play at the most optimal level and add 'time' into your definition of success, the path to that is practicing with high performance players and observing how YOU play, not guess how others play with DPS meters. You don't need a DPS meter to see your team succeed by a high margin. It's just a fallacy you need this DPS meter to improve how you play; when the reality is that the DPS meter isn't giving you info you need to do that because your performance is confounded by your team. the works has already been done; pick a meta build, join a performance raid guild and get to it.

 

 

 

 

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > To see a flaw in the group and try to correct it? I didn't talk about policing, I'm talking about improvement. (Maybe the auto-attacking guy won't improve, but the guy not buffing the team can be shown that we care about his boons)

>

> It's not a flaw though ... the likelihood you need that buff to succeed is very low; the threshold for succeeding in this game is not high. Do NOT associate playing at the highest optimal level with being the only way to success in this game. If there is a flaw, it's in the idea you NEED to play optimally.

>

>

>

>

 

"the threshold for succeeding in this game is not high"

 

And there you have it folks.

 

Stay tuned for my next thread. "How Anet can introduce difficult content, without hurting other people's feelings." (No seriously, that's up next.)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> >

> > > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > To see a flaw in the group and try to correct it? I didn't talk about policing, I'm talking about improvement. (Maybe the auto-attacking guy won't improve, but the guy not buffing the team can be shown that we care about his boons)

> >

> > It's not a flaw though ... the likelihood you need that buff to succeed is very low; the threshold for succeeding in this game is not high. Do NOT associate playing at the highest optimal level with being the only way to success in this game. If there is a flaw, it's in the idea you NEED to play optimally.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> "the threshold for succeeding in this game is not high"

>

> And there you have it folks.

>

> Stay tuned for my next thread. "How Anet can introduce difficult content, without hurting out her people's feelings." (No seriously, that's up next.)

 

No, it's not at all. It's one of the founding principles of the game in fact and it's the reason it attracts the people that play it, proven many times over throughout the history of the game actually. This is a secret to no one, except maybe you. It makes sense though; you come late, boost to 80 and throw yourself into raids expecting GW2 to mimic a WoW experience.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > >

> > > > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > > To see a flaw in the group and try to correct it? I didn't talk about policing, I'm talking about improvement. (Maybe the auto-attacking guy won't improve, but the guy not buffing the team can be shown that we care about his boons)

> > >

> > > It's not a flaw though ... the likelihood you need that buff to succeed is very low; the threshold for succeeding in this game is not high. Do NOT associate playing at the highest optimal level with being the only way to success in this game. If there is a flaw, it's in the idea you NEED to play optimally.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > "the threshold for succeeding in this game is not high"

> >

> > And there you have it folks.

> >

> > Stay tuned for my next thread. "How Anet can introduce difficult content, without hurting out her people's feelings." (No seriously, that's up next.)

>

> No, it's not at all. It's one of the founding principles of the game in fact. You didn't get that memo because you came late, boosted to 80 and threw yourself into raids.

 

Getting off topic again but ok. No it's not what?

[Obtena.7952]

No, it's not .. as in, it's not a high threshold of play needed to be successful.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> boost to 80 and throw yourself into raids expecting GW2 to mimic a WoW experience.

 

Ooh this parts my favorite, the one where you assume why I came to and play the game.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > boost to 80 and throw yourself into raids expecting GW2 to mimic a WoW experience.

>

> Ooh this parts my favorite, the one where you assume why I came to and play the game.

 

Glad I can oblige. The truth is that you are late to the party; you're not the first person to impose the idea people need to play optimally; that's simply not how the game is designed. Non-optimized play is succeeding at content all the time. Surprise; you're not the first person getting this explained to them either. The best part is that non-optimal play only becomes more and more concrete as the game continues to release more and more content where it's true. This was a complaint when dungeons first released. It's actually boring at this point to explain this to you it's happened so much.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> No, it's not .. as in, it's not a high threshold of play needed to be successful.

 

Ah ok. Cool.

 

Well, then PoF was what? I guess some people had it wrong then. I was under the impression that PoF was in some sense a response to people who wanted more difficult content?

 

Fractals? Basically mythics from WoW. Interesting.....

 

I'm glad you love the story mode and stuff, the easy gameplay. But Anet seems to be answering a smaller community currently in the game, and a potential market outside of the game.

 

And they have a great opportunity to do it WITHOUT ruining the current community.

 

But of course, I'm just jerk from WoW right? My opinions don't matter.

[Obtena.7952]

So you're saying that because PoF is more difficult, people need to play optimally? I play PLENTLY of non-optimal builds in all content and succeed in this game. I would advise you don't try to mix the intentions of the OW content with the team instance stuff.

 

You think Anet is answering the needs of a smaller community with instanced content that can be completed with non-optimal compositions? Interesting ... I don't think that's accurate. I think the way raids are made, it answers to the whole community that wish to still play how they want in a large team format .... and I think that because it's true. That's a good thing. I think this is one of the things that makes this game successful; the game doesn't force you into a specific way to play or build to succeed. The fact it's successful is a validation of that.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> So you're saying that because PoF is more difficult, people need to play optimally? Now your just grasping. I play PLENTLY of non-optimal builds in all content and succeed in this game.

 

No, but I guess you've missed the point again.

 

I'm really hopeful Anet can combine the casual and serious gaming communities. What a wonderful, profitable thing it would be for them. But with such exclusive attitudes like you've shown here... You're not helping.

[Obtena.7952]

If anyone is exhibiting exclusivity, it's the kind of person that assumes there are two separate gaming communities that need to be combined in the first place. This game isn't successful because it segregates; it's open-ended idea of playing how you want is why it works, not because it's recognizing segregation and forcing a love-in.

 

This game allows people to play with who they want, how they want to play. What is more inclusive than that? I think it's an awesome idea. I'M being exclusive? How so? Because I don't like having smoke blown up my skirt about how DPS meters are awesome for improvement?

 

The only exclusivity is when PLAYERS impose on others how to play ... like the kind of player that decides someone in their team should be buffing them so they can 'improve'.

[deltaconnected.4058]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> I'm really greateful you pointed this out. Your server could be compromised, we don't know how you compiled it, I don't know what's in the code... I don't know these things. Most of those don't matter very much in a risk assessment.

>

> What matters more to me is that Anet is a company that could be held responsible. They're listed, regulated, and stand to make money if they aren't doing shady stuff. Still a risk.

>

> You, are an individual developing something for free and stand little to lose if you are selling data. Youre not a listed business. Suing you would be much harder than suing Anet. It's not a matter of opinion, it's just a risk assessment.

 

While you're welcome to once again direct this at me and my setup to support your argument against 3rd party meters, saying "it's ANet" does not make a security breach at their hosting provider any less likely than at mine. Likewise, if someone decided to sneak a backdoor into a compiler like in one of the more famous cases of this happening, "it's ANet" still won't save you. At the end of the day, you as the end user now have malware

[deadpool.7036]

> @"deltaconnected.4058" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > I'm really greateful you pointed this out. Your server could be compromised, we don't know how you compiled it, I don't know what's in the code... I don't know these things. Most of those don't matter very much in a risk assessment.

> >

> > What matters more to me is that Anet is a company that could be held responsible. They're listed, regulated, and stand to make money if they aren't doing shady stuff. Still a risk.

> >

> > You, are an individual developing something for free and stand little to lose if you are selling data. Youre not a listed business. Suing you would be much harder than suing Anet. It's not a matter of opinion, it's just a risk assessment.

>

> While you're welcome to once again direct this at me and my setup to support your argument against 3rd party meters, saying "it's ANet" does not make a security breach at their hosting provider any less likely than at mine. Likewise, if someone decided to sneak a backdoor into a compiler like in one of the more famous cases of this happening, "it's ANet" still won't save you. At the end of the day, you as the end user now have malware

 

Sure. But you've reduced attack vectors by 50%. (Kind of, I mean obviously there's more involved here).

 

Is there a recent compiler threat? I'd love to read about it. I can only find Ken Thompson's from 1984.

 

Im not against it, I personally would not advocate it. I'm simply asking the community if they like to see better support.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Unless it's necessary, I don't see why Anet would implement such a feature. We have meters, but they aren't for performance, they are for function. Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them).

 

DPS Meters are awesome. It's important in group content. It helps me see when my class struggles against certain bosses and excels at others. Without a DPS meter I wouldn't know that I was doing 10k on Samarog as Condition Mirage when I could be pulling three times that on a deadeye. And I wouldn't know I'd be doing 30-40k as condition mirage on Soulless Horror or Cairn.

 

Only having the golem would leave out a ton of practical information gathered during boss fights, like Torment, confusion damage, how you interact with certain boss phases.

 

> @"Cynn.1659" said:

> **Dps meters need to be removed**

> Dps meters are the worst thing that has happened to this amazing game. They ruin all the fun for real playerbase,not even 1% of the players finished even one raid boss. Raids and dps meters bring nothing but toxic elitism to the game. You can't even have fun in tier one fractals these days, as someone will be insulting you for the way you play. Raids need to go away and dps meters need to be banned. Real part of the playerbase that keeps the game running plays open world. It's the best kind of content this game has to offer.

It's funny how you go on about toxicity and elitism while talking about how nonraiders are the REAL playerbase and people that raid are invalid.

 

> **What does open world offer?**

> 1. Joy of exploration.

True. Open world exploration is a lot of fun and should be the bulk of the game's content, but raids offer a very unique form of exploration that open world simply doesn't have. One of the most fun things about raids is the feeling of going deep into hostile and very dangerous territory. Of being immensely outmanned, out gunned, and overpowered and getting through by the skin of your teeth. Just think about Queensdale and stuff like Begger's Burror or Bandithaunt Caverns. There are swarms and swarms of enemies. You're in enemy territory but the content is so easy that there's almost zero risk of dying or failure. Zero danger. Zero sense of accomplishment. You never have to be the slightest bit worried about pulling to many mobs or getting caught in a bad position or having to even think about the encounters whatsoever. This is true of literally every area of the game at every level in the open world. The only challenging NPCs in the entire open world are Balthazar's Champion and the Mushroom Queen Hero Points in the Maguuma Jungle.

 

Dungeons were suppose to provide this sense of danger, but they fell completely flat as the developers didn't understand their combat system and how to design good fights around it back in 2012.

 

> 2. Teamwork of overcoming challenges.

Yeah, no. The few times there were challenges in the open world, like HoT Meta Events on release, Tequatl update, Triple Trouble and Marrionette, people demanded nerfs. There were tons of frustration with the content. I shared a lot of the frustrations with those events, not necessarily that they were challenging like a lot of people hated but the long wait between attempts, the difficulty in properly shaping your party to handle them, and felt that super hard mega bosses would be better off as instanced raid encounters.

 

But the rest of open world content? Zero challenge. None of the original Orr temples were challenging. How can they be when there are literally infinite reinforcements since everyone can just rez, comeback and zerg the boss outside of strict time limits (Which is what people hated about the meta events that presented real challenges)? And that's if the bosses were even tuned to be capable of downing players, most of which are not.

 

Just comparing death branded shatterer to even the starter bosses of Wing 5, the Amalgamate and the Largos Twins, the joy my static had killing the latter bosses vs. how I felt killing the death branded shatterer aren't even in the same galaxy. Because the death branded shatterer is not a challenge.

 

There is actual teamwork required in raid encounters. Who is hand kiting? Who is eating mushrooms? Who is killing cannons? Are we pushing or pulling the dead and who is doing that? Who is bringing reflects for this boss? We need to make sure we have enough CC for the breakbars.

 

> 3. People helping each other.

The motto of my guild whenever a teammate goes down in a fight is "res your friend."

 

Playing support and even doing something as simple as picking up a downed ally is so much more rewarding in environments where support is crucial and every death matters. I find little joy playing druid in zerg content but it's actually enjoyable in raids.

 

> 4. Gathering of useful resources..

Sure, I'll give you that.

 

> 5. Feeling like you are part of the big world, striving to make a difference.

Raids augment that, not take away from that, by making raid territories dangerous and scary to explore making it more interesting when you get to explore them freely. Plus vanquishing a raid of enemies for the week feels far better than flipping some village that gets flipped 30 minutes later.

 

>

> **What do raids offer?**

> 1. Toxic elitism that starts ruining the game for everyone.

>

> **What needs to change?**

> Arena Net Must stop wasting time on developing raids for less than 1% of the playebase composed of nothing but toxic elitists.

You're complaining about toxic elitism while also calling players who don't raid the "real" playerbase.

 

>We could be getting new open world maps every 1,5 months if it wasn't being for the developer time wasted on developing content that nobody plays.

 

Nope! Not even close to being true. Of Arenanet's 400 employees there were 13 working on raid wings 1-5. It's likely the exact number of people are still working on raids despite the team being merged into the System's Team after Path of Fire released. Those 13 people did a kick butt job of making raids, but the number of people working on living world dwarfs them massively and putting those 13 people into the living world team wouldn't increase the production pipeline much at all.

 

> Arena Net please make this game great again, where we all can enjoy ourselves without being assaulted by toxicity from all angles.

 

I like the game when I have a variety of content to do, from difficult group content, to challenging solo content like the Queen's Gauntlet, to casual group content to casual solo content. MMORPGs are amusement parks. They thrive when they cast a wide net of interesting experiences for people. Some people like roller coasters and drop towers, other people don't like them and prefer less intense rides and games and attractions.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If anyone is exhibiting exclusivity, it's the kind of person that assumes there are two separate gaming communities that need to be combined in the first place. This game isn't successful because it segregates; it's open-ended idea of playing how you want is why it works, not because it's recognizing segregation and forcing a love-in.

>

> This game allows people to play with who they want, how they want to play. What is more inclusive than that? I think it's an awesome idea. I'M being exclusive? How so? Because I don't like having smoke blown up my skirt about how DPS meters are awesome for improvement?

>

> The only exclusivity is when PLAYERS impose on others how to play ... like the kind of player that decides someone in their team should be buffing them so they can 'improve'.

 

Nah see you missed you it again. And because you miss it you misrepresent.

 

The part of the community I'm talking about isn't even here. They don't want to be here, because there's no reason to be here. Create the reason. Get more players. Make more money. Be the game that is both casual and hardcore. At the same time. It'd be great. I beleive Anet can do it.

 

Look, I'm trying to help. Are you going to shoot this down too?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > If anyone is exhibiting exclusivity, it's the kind of person that assumes there are two separate gaming communities that need to be combined in the first place. This game isn't successful because it segregates; it's open-ended idea of playing how you want is why it works, not because it's recognizing segregation and forcing a love-in.

> >

> > This game allows people to play with who they want, how they want to play. What is more inclusive than that? I think it's an awesome idea. I'M being exclusive? How so? Because I don't like having smoke blown up my skirt about how DPS meters are awesome for improvement?

> >

> > The only exclusivity is when PLAYERS impose on others how to play ... like the kind of player that decides someone in their team should be buffing them so they can 'improve'.

>

> Nah see you missed you it again. And because you miss it you misrepresent.

>

> The part of the community I'm talking about isn't even here. They don't want to be here, because there's no reason to be here. Create the reason. Get more players. Make more money. Be the game that is both casual and hardcore. At the same time. It'd be great. I beleive Anet can do it.

>

> Look, I'm trying to help. Are you going to shoot this down too?

 

Yup, because if after 6 years there is NO reason for those people to be here, then a DPS meter isn't going to change that. I just speculating here but ... people play games to be entertained by content, not because it has a DPS meter. DPS meter is NOT a reason for people to play a game.

 

To be frank, you just don't know this game and it's progression or history. You come in with the idea that Anet has all this bandwidth to satisfy it's current market ... AND the market it doesn't have? That's just unsound. I think Anet is working hard to just maintain the playerbase it has. I don't believe it makes any business sense for them to divert resources on such a small feature to attract a market you claim it doesn't have a share of. I mean, you don't actually know. I find it really hard to believe that not having an ingame, Anet built DPS meter is THAT thing keeping THAT market from playing GW2. I don't even get why that segment of players would want to be here; the raids just aren't that hard; the threshold for success is wide to appeal to the current playerbase and the reason they play.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Unless it's necessary, I don't see why Anet would implement such a feature. We have meters, but they aren't for performance, they are for function. Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them).

>

> DPS Meters are awesome. It's important in group content. It helps me see when my class struggles against certain bosses and excels at others.

You don't need a DPS meter for that ... people have already gone to great lengths to determine what is meta, even for the certain bosses.

 

> Without a DPS meter I wouldn't know that I was doing 10k on Samarog as Condition Mirage when I could be pulling three times that on a deadeye. And I wouldn't know I'd be doing 30-40k as condition mirage on Soulless Horror or Cairn.

 

And you don't need to know ... that's simply extraneous information and you knowing it has no impact on your team's success. If you want to pull more DPS with deadeye, you already know it does because the research is done. Any other amount of DPS you do or don't with it is based on how you interact with your team and the game. Again, I'm not against people monitoring their own performance here, but that's not really the scope of what this discussion is about. If people are claiming the DPS meter is about 'improvement', then it's surveying the whole team and it's individuals. That's a problem.

 

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > If anyone is exhibiting exclusivity, it's the kind of person that assumes there are two separate gaming communities that need to be combined in the first place. This game isn't successful because it segregates; it's open-ended idea of playing how you want is why it works, not because it's recognizing segregation and forcing a love-in.

> > >

> > > This game allows people to play with who they want, how they want to play. What is more inclusive than that? I think it's an awesome idea. I'M being exclusive? How so? Because I don't like having smoke blown up my skirt about how DPS meters are awesome for improvement?

> > >

> > > The only exclusivity is when PLAYERS impose on others how to play ... like the kind of player that decides someone in their team should be buffing them so they can 'improve'.

> >

> > Nah see you missed you it again. And because you miss it you misrepresent.

> >

> > The part of the community I'm talking about isn't even here. They don't want to be here, because there's no reason to be here. Create the reason. Get more players. Make more money. Be the game that is both casual and hardcore. At the same time. It'd be great. I beleive Anet can do it.

> >

> > Look, I'm trying to help. Are you going to shoot this down too?

>

> Yup, because if after 6 years there is NO reason for those people to be here, then a DPS meter isn't going to change that. I just speculating here but ... people play games to be entertained by content, not because it has a DPS meter. DPS meter is NOT a reason for people to play a game.

>

> To be frank, you just don't know this game and it's progression or history. You come in with the idea that Anet has all this bandwidth to satisfy it's current market ... AND the market it doesn't have? That's just unsound. I think Anet is working hard to just maintain the playerbase it has. I don't believe it makes any business sense for them to divert resources on such a small feature to attract a market you claim it doesn't have a share of. I mean, you don't actually know. I find it really hard to believe that not having an ingame, Anet built DPS meter is THAT thing keeping THAT market from playing GW2. I don't even get why that segment of players would want to be here; the raids just aren't that hard; the threshold for success is wide to appeal to the current playerbase and the reason they play.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Unless it's necessary, I don't see why Anet would implement such a feature. We have meters, but they aren't for performance, they are for function. Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them).

> >

> > DPS Meters are awesome. It's important in group content. It helps me see when my class struggles against certain bosses and excels at others.

> You don't need a DPS meter for that ... people have already gone to great lengths to determine what is meta, even for the certain bosses.

>

> > Without a DPS meter I wouldn't know that I was doing 10k on Samarog as Condition Mirage when I could be pulling three times that on a deadeye. And I wouldn't know I'd be doing 30-40k as condition mirage on Soulless Horror or Cairn.

>

> And you don't need to know ... that's simply extraneous information and you knowing it has no impact on your team's success. If you want to pull more DPS with deadeye, you already know it does because the research is done. Any other amount of DPS you do or don't with it is based on how you interact with your team and the game. Again, I'm not against people monitoring their own performance here, but that's not really the scope of what this discussion is about. If people are claiming the DPS meter is about 'improvement', then it's surveying the whole team and it's individuals. That's a problem.

>

 

Ok. I mean, DPS meters and difficult content and competitive players are very different ideas and suggestions that I would have. But you seem so confident. Yeah, you're right. Gw2 should remain cheese with no improvement. Good work. Anet, hire this guy, make more money.