Personal DPS and other self-tracking

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > If anyone is exhibiting exclusivity, it's the kind of person that assumes there are two separate gaming communities that need to be combined in the first place. This game isn't successful because it segregates; it's open-ended idea of playing how you want is why it works, not because it's recognizing segregation and forcing a love-in.

> > >

> > > This game allows people to play with who they want, how they want to play. What is more inclusive than that? I think it's an awesome idea. I'M being exclusive? How so? Because I don't like having smoke blown up my skirt about how DPS meters are awesome for improvement?

> > >

> > > The only exclusivity is when PLAYERS impose on others how to play ... like the kind of player that decides someone in their team should be buffing them so they can 'improve'.

> >

> > Nah see you missed you it again. And because you miss it you misrepresent.

> >

> > The part of the community I'm talking about isn't even here. They don't want to be here, because there's no reason to be here. Create the reason. Get more players. Make more money. Be the game that is both casual and hardcore. At the same time. It'd be great. I beleive Anet can do it.

> >

> > Look, I'm trying to help. Are you going to shoot this down too?

>

> Yup, because if after 6 years there is NO reason for those people to be here, then a DPS meter isn't going to change that. I just speculating here but ... people play games to be entertained by content, not because it has a DPS meter. DPS meter is NOT a reason for people to play a game.

>

> To be frank, you just don't know this game and it's progression or history. You come in with the idea that Anet has all this bandwidth to satisfy it's current market ... AND the market it doesn't have? That's just unsound. I think Anet is working hard to just maintain the playerbase it has. I don't believe it makes any business sense for them to divert resources on such a small feature to attract a market you claim it doesn't have a share of. I mean, you don't actually know. I find it really hard to believe that not having an ingame, Anet built DPS meter is THAT thing keeping THAT market from playing GW2. I don't even get why that segment of players would want to be here; the raids just aren't that hard; the threshold for success is wide to appeal to the current playerbase and the reason they play.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Unless it's necessary, I don't see why Anet would implement such a feature. We have meters, but they aren't for performance, they are for function. Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them).

> >

> > DPS Meters are awesome. It's important in group content. It helps me see when my class struggles against certain bosses and excels at others.

> You don't need a DPS meter for that ... people have already gone to great lengths to determine what is meta, even for the certain bosses.

>

> > Without a DPS meter I wouldn't know that I was doing 10k on Samarog as Condition Mirage when I could be pulling three times that on a deadeye. And I wouldn't know I'd be doing 30-40k as condition mirage on Soulless Horror or Cairn.

>

> And you don't need to know ... that's simply extraneous information and you knowing it has no impact on your team's success. If you want to pull more DPS with deadeye, you already know it does because the research is done. Any other amount of DPS you do or don't with it is based on how you interact with your team and the game. Again, I'm not against people monitoring their own performance here, but that's not really the scope of what this discussion is about. If people are claiming the DPS meter is about 'improvement', then it's surveying the whole team and it's individuals. That's a problem.

>

 

Your post is literally nonsense. People have figured out what is meta for each fight... using research gathered by ARCDPS.

 

Yeah on the golem Deadeye will benchmark for 37k DPS and Confusion damage mirage will benchmark at 17k DPS. But on specific encounters Confusion Damage Mirage is doing 42k DPS. Confusion Mirage's real potential wouldn't be known about, let alone known as widely, if it wasn't for ARCDPS allowing us to gather live data from real fight encounters and not just golem benchmarks telling us 17k DPS.

 

In content where being good actually matters, being able to tell if you're doing well on the spot is very important. Trying to chop down a tree blind, deaf, and will all sense of feeling stripped from you so you have no feedback is a recipe for disaster.

 

It's also especially ridiculous because DPS meters have made Raids _more_ accessible for the bulk of the community. While the super comp of 2 Chronos, 1 Druid, and a Banner Slave still exists, the other 6 places isn't "6 X of whatever the highest benchmarking thing is right now." because people are able to more clearly see a variety of builds can be more even and balanced overall than DPS tempest was back when it was king.

[Obtena.7952]

The fact that they may have used ARCDPS does in no way preclude you to concluding it's a good tool for you. Like I said ... they do that work for us, so that isn't a tool you need for the reason you stated. You don't need ARCDPS at that point to help you improve because the meta build is already the best one you can play. At that point, it's about how you interact with the team and the game, not your individual DPS.

 

In content where being good matters, a DPS meter isn't necessary to tell you if you are good or not; people have been completing content where 'being good matters' without DPS meters for quite some time now. Don't make it sound like a tool you need to play. I'm not arguing DPS meters don't make raids more accessible to the community.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> There isn't anything nonsensical about the system that already exists for optimal play in GW2 ... because it works. The fact that they may have used ACRDPS does in no way preclude you to concluding it's a good tool for you. Like I said ... that work is already done for you, so that isn't a tool you need for the reason you stated.

 

Ban ARCDPS and it's just a few balance patches until we're back in an era where the only accepted DPS is whatever happens to benchmark the highest on the golem and since we'll never know how well things are doing in the fights themselves.

 

> In content where being good matters, a DPS meter isn't necessary to tell you if you are good or not; people have been completing content where 'being good matters' without DPS meters for quite some time now. Don't make it sound like a tool you need to play.

 

Just going to repost this because you clearly missed this.

 

It's also especially ridiculous because DPS meters have made Raids more accessible for the bulk of the community. While the super comp of 2 Chronos, 1 Druid, and a Banner Slave still exists, the other 6 places isn't "6 X of whatever the highest benchmarking thing is right now" and more classes are brought on more encounters because people are able to more clearly see a variety of builds can be more excel and are also more balanced overall than DPS tempest was back when it was king.

 

 

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> The fact that they may have used ARCDPS does in no way preclude you to concluding it's a good tool for you. Like I said ... they do that work for us, so that isn't a tool you need for the reason you stated. You don't need ARCDPS at that point to help you improve because the meta build is already the best one you can play. At that point, it's about how you interact with the team and the game, not your individual DPS.

>

> In content where being good matters, a DPS meter isn't necessary to tell you if you are good or not; people have been completing content where 'being good matters' without DPS meters for quite some time now. Don't make it sound like a tool you need to play. I'm not arguing DPS meters don't make raids more accessible to the community.

 

Oh. Ok. I mean i get it now. You're so right.

[Obtena.7952]

No one here is talking about banning ARCDPS so ... ?

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> No one here is talking about banning ARCDPS so ... ?

 

You've been doing it nonstop.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > No one here is talking about banning ARCDPS so ... ?

>

> You've been doing it nonstop.

 

I never said once Anet should ban ARCDPS.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > No one here is talking about banning ARCDPS so ... ?

>

> You've been doing it nonstop.

 

Ah yes. My previous post was in bad taste. I'll remove the over the top bits.

 

You see, it's double speak. [Redacted stuff] (Attempt 2:) We don't say we're going to throttle your internet, we just want the ability to. We don't say we want to ban meters, we just want to say how useless they are and repugnant among the community they are and how much of a scourage they are and how UNNECESSARY IT IS for Anet to do anything about it.

 

You're not for them obtena, and you certainly don't like anyones answers here. We get it. Let someone else chime in.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > where in this game, you depend so much on your team mates to boost it

> >

> > So if my dps starts to suck, and I notice I don't have the right boons from someone... I could actually say, "hey bud, be a team player". Or would that be elitist at that point? Because I ultimately used a meter to figure out who to call out because they were doing their job standing in the back auto-attacking...

>

> No, it wouldn't be elitist, it would just be ridiculous. It's not like you have time to pause and see what's going on and see if you have a buff, figure out who's not giving it to you and tell them you want it. You assumed you didn't have that buff because your team mate didn't give it to you. That's not the only reason you might not have it; it could be your fault. Also, if someone is just AA in the back, you don't need a DPS meter to see that ... nor does that mean you won't be successful as a team.

>

> See, you finally hit the nail on the head ... you want a DPS meter to police your team mates; it's not about individual improvement. DPs meter doesn't tell you what's actually important about your performance. it just shows the results of how you AND YOUR TEAM are affecting your performance. If you want to analyze performance and do something so detailed like what buffs you had when, etc ... a real time DPS meter just isn't the right tool for that. Like I've been saying, it's way to insufficient to allow you to assess in real time what's going on. In fact, just looking at what's happening is enough; you don't need a meter to tell you don't have a buff, or you missed a dodge, or whatever. You see it, you feel it, you hear it.

>

> Honestly, I can't think of any reason to replace the interactions of your senses and observational skills with a DPS meter. I mean, it really feels like you just want to replace your observational skill and decision making with something that spits a number at you. I can see from a dev's POV why I would never vote to have a DPS meter ingame.

 

Erm.. we have classes in raids literally dedicated to giving out boons. If you lack a boon, its because they didnt fulfil their role and give that boon. Usually its just for a short window because very few people can play perfectly and thats not an issue. But if you lack a boon for long periods of the fight its obvious the boon giver isnt playing to the minimum standard.

 

Dps meters will definitly tell you where the problem lies in your group too, and its important to have other players dps to understand this. You can see if the supports are healing and giving out sufficient boons. If this is the case the then problem lies with the dps players. If everyone else in the team is doing sufficient dps, and you are doing 5k then the problem lies with you. IF you are the rest of the team is doing 30k and someone else does 5k, then its their issue. If the whole team is doing crap, then its unlikely its a personal issue and more a problem with mechanics. DPS meters can tell you who is failing mechanics but is obviously much less useful in this area. At least you will understand its not a problem with the rotation side of gameplay.

 

Its obvious to see if someone is AA in the back but its not obvious to see if someone is just spamming random buttons. WIthout a meter you would have to firstly know their classes rotation well and then be able to sit and observe that player's attack amination to see if they are doing the rotation. Not realisitic in a raid really. Sometimes they will be doing thir rotation perfeclty but have totally innappropriate gear and nothing can let you know that except a gear check or dps meter.

 

I think it is fair to 'police' your teammates to a certain level, that being the minimum level needed to meet the needs of the group. Usually that would be doing more dps than the supports. Individual groups have different needs though and standards might be higher in lets say, a 1k LI w1-6 4 hour clear. If they are doing less than the minimum that they are contributing nothing to the group and its fair to replace them with someone that contributes. Then ofc you get elitist people who demand much higher than the mimimum and only value top level contribution even if its inappropriate for the group. Thats abuse of dps meter and something I dont support. It definitly does happen but is alot rarer than people on forums seen to belive. Most groups wont care as long as you give the minimum and even if you give less, will carry you if it doesnt impact their gameplay too much.

 

The problem comes when it IS impacting the teams gameplay. If they arent experienced enough to carry a non contributing person ect. I agree with you that raids have a very low bar. if people cant even meet that, they should be replaced. The rest of the team shouldnt be forced to carry them, especially when it causes them to fail content they would succeed at otherwise.

 

[wanya.1697]

I am rly not sure what to think about dps meter on onside its good to see if you can reach certain numbers in actual fights

on the other side they are just an advanced step into a direction where you are expected to deal a certain amount of dmg

and you will get shouted at if you cant do it for what ever reason which can be hard on both sides cause of unfriendlyness/elitis who will find less players who are willing to play with them cause of the high efforts they expect from you

an other interessting thing what happend cause of dps meters could be experienced in WvW

pre HoT there was a big rework on how conditions worked but nearly nobody in WvW cared about that only over about a year later after the first dps benchmarks showed how much dmg was actually posible it became new meta to go condi instead of direct dmg on some classes which brought about many balancing issues to daylight which never were a problem before although it was quite possible toplay like that since shortly before HoT was released

unfortuantly anet reacted with more powercreep instead of toning down dmg output in the competetiv modes of the game

so it is much harder to get into WvW and sPvP now for new players as it was in the beginning of the game where you could actually learn something in a fight as it took longer while now you are just dead instantly if you have not enough experience and as the fights are so short now its much harder to learn something from them

which in return increases toxicity/flames and shows just why there are so many forum posts askings for nerfs

ok so to come back to dps meters I think they can help identify dmg output which is good and bad at the sametime