maddoctor.2738 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > So then it is the combination of a guide + practice that improves you. > > > > Tell me, how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? And don't answer because you do the rotation well on the static golem, that doesn't count. > > You can tell when the enemies die faster, the rotation feels smoother and flows more easily, you see it canceled and interrupted less, when you personally stall and reposition less, when the numbers appear higher and faster, and you spend less time avoiding being hit by enemy attacks. All that in no way tell you that you are following the rotation well. Nice try though. The question is still the same: how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them). > > > > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is. > > > > > > This here is probably one of the biggest myths with DPS meters. They don't tell you how to improve. At all. They don't tell you where the problem is. They just give you a measure of your current standing. Saying a DPS meter improves your DPS is like saying a yardstick makes you taller. The only way a DPS meter "solves" the problem is if you kick players with lower DPS and invite in somebody better. > > > > It isn't. And it's also a matter of you not reading correctly and making assumptions. So let me try to explain in another way what I said and see if you understand now. > > > > DPS meters, which I call parsers normally, tell you things like who did how much DPS. I don't know the GW2 ones but for SWTOR it tells you a lot more like which skills were used and for how much percentage of your total damage they were responsible as an individual player. > > > > So the first thing you can see is WHERE the problem is. I said where in my post. And once you know where or who in this case, you can look at any additional data to see if there's an indication of what is or isn't happening. For example, again in SWTOR, there were skills that based on a rotation do more damage than if you don't follow the rotation. Call them combo effects. When people do not use this combo of skills this will be visible. Also you see which skills are used as in frequency. So you can see how much auto-attack is going on, to use a GW2 element. > > > > So even though it certainly doesn't tell you everything, calling it a myth that you can find out anything about what improvements via a parser is just false. And the first step when you fail in beating a boss's enrage timer is finding out where the issue is before you go into the how. > > > > People will often say they know what to do, even within guilds and you may be surprised how many people exaggerate their abilities or simply lie because they think they can get away with it and just be lazy. That's a rotten attitude but it happens. > > > > Also doing rotations on test dummies or whatever is not the same as actual boss fights where a lot of movement is involved, especially in GW2 I would say. This movement can be disruptive to the DPS levels you could make on a dummy. So also there the parser is useful to see actual performance. When someone is, for example, not doing nearly as many hits as expected you can look into the why of that. Without that you have nothing to go on. To dismiss that as a myth is just not right. As I said, I agree it doesn't tell you everything but it does give you indications about the who and gives you some starting points at what to look at...provided you know what you're doing with parsers of course. > > > > No, it continues to be false. In order to make the decisions on how to improve on a certain area, you have to already possess in-depth knowledge of the game outside of the meter, along with the creativity to apply that information in a constructive matter in order to resolve a perceived issue. This needs to be combined with both the desire to improve oneself upon that certain task beyond their current standing, as well as having the untapped potential skills with which to do so. The meter gives you none of this. And yet I only said that parsers are needed to help you improve because it tells you where (who) the issue lies and what the issues are. You are talking about the how which I didn't mention. That's what I mean with you not reading properly. You replied to me saying that it's a myth that parsers tell you how to change it but I didn't say that in my post. I only said that you need it because it gives you information that you need to be able to figure out where the issues lie. > > This information can be be derived without the use of a meter, at least on a personal level. The reason being that, all this vague "how to solve a problem stuff" all boils down to the exact same broad stroke: Take as little damage as possible, and do as much damage as possible. If there's an issue, then either you need to take less damage, or do more damage. You don't need a meter to think "I did squat all at this part. Maybe I should, you know, hit the enemy harder?" Of course, the exact minutia of how to do this isn't given, which is why the DPS meter doesn't solve the problem. If you're already trying as hard as you can and can't come up with a solution to your poor performance, then you're out of luck. Any mechanic more complicated than this is one where a DPS meter provides no support. A DPS meter didn't create the hand-kiting strategy for Deimos. A DPS meter didn't create the P/P Deadeye build for killing Qadim's lava bubbles. A DPS meter didn't create the distortion sharing tactics for Gorseval. This is a load of crap. Parsers are the easiest way to determine in a group who does subpar DPS and what sort of things they are or aren't doing and by how much they need to increase. People aren't that honest or aware a lot of the time. It's not just about you, there's a group and they need to all know they're doing their part and the leader needs to know who to focus on to help people get better. > > Unless, of course, you're talking about kicking problem players. A meter is great at finding who's doing the lowest DPS. Then you can actually save time, unless you're win-kicking players, in which case it is just worse for everyone. Nope, I'm talking about identifying who's struggling and having information to help find out what needs to improve so you can help them with the how. > > I say this is the worst myth because it is a common one, expressed in many facets of the world. It's the terrible myth that, if you punish someone for not knowing how to do something, then it somehow teaches a person to do that thing. Not only does punishing somebody NOT spontaneously generate knowledge, but it just manufactures malice, both in you for hating that incompetent person, and in them for having to put up with unrealistic expectations and a cruel system. If you want someone to have better DPS, you tell them how to have better DPS and show them how to have better DPS. You don't tell them to install a meter to reinforce your claim that they're horrible, then expect them to absorb years worth of theorycrafting from an action log they're supposed to somehow know about. I see it all the time in the education system, mostly from liberal arts but also from physics. I worked as a professional tutor for several years at my college, so I had to put up with this nonsense all of this time. "My math teacher wants me to find the geometry for this messed up shape on the test. How was I supposed to know that I have to divide it up into a bunch of triangles on a non-radial axis unlike any problem we've ever seen before?" Again, you put words into my mouth that I never spoke. Of course a parser isn't going to directly improve you. It helps identify the players and a number of the issues so you don't have to waste time focusing on the wrong things and waste time on players who are less than honest. > > It forever irks me that people with creativity, inspiration, and problem solving skills completely fail to realize that nobody else has these traits. We don't even know what creativity is, and we sure as hell can't give it to other people. You'll sit there, saying that the yard stick made you gigantic while being completely unaware that it was years of endless experimentation and theory crafting that made you taller, and hating other people who don't have these mysterious and intangible qualities. This isn't just an annoying myth, it is a harmful one. To someone who's uninitiated to the concepts of rates and experimentation, the DPS meter might as well be magic. And it forever irks me that people are biased and put words into other people's mouths because they can't see beyond their bias. I mean we can all abolish books and schools so that people can't learn from each other and have to do it all themselves but it's part of the human experience to learn from each other. Parsers only identify where the issues are and give you information to help you figure out what the problem is. Parsers aren't magical devices that fix your problems, they help you fix them if you are willing and able. 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Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > You can still compare yourself with other people in the same subgroup. The boons should be equal there. > > > > > > > It's still meaningless because they are still factors out of your control that you can do nothing about. > > > > You remind me of a couple of math professors I've had. To anyone not in the know, college science professors are among the worst teachers you'll ever get, for to reasons. One of them is that they're just teaching to get further bonuses for their own projects. The second being that they're so wrapped up in their own little ivory tower that they've forgotten how everyone else is. The worst case I had was a physics professor who claimed that the class required no memorization, asserting that you could derive every single one of the dozens of equations using only logic and calculus, while also refusing to let us use calculators because he believed it was easy to do square root functions in our heads. > > > > This is you. The case you're making here is essentially "DPS meters improve you, so long as you have the natural inclination, drive, and free time to improve DPS while also having intimate a priori knowledge of the game's systems in which you can systematically and heuristically improve through various iterations and directly testing hypothesis, but ignore all of that latter stuff. It's totally the DPS meter that does all of it." You're taking the all of the creativity, ingenuity, and drive that existed long before DPS meters existed, and saying post hoc that DPS meters are responsible for all of it _just because you know that is the real thing that improves people._ We were comparing lupi speedkills and dungeon speedclears long before there was a DPS meter in the game. The only thing the meter does is make measuring the outcome of our efforts more convenient. Like how a yard stick is better than counting hands. > > To be fair this physics professor was correct in the sense that all these things can be logically derived and should be learned as such to get the most out of it. > > On you're general response, i prefer the MRI scanner example. An MRI scanner doesn't magicly cure you, correct. But tell me which hospital doesn't have one, or a doctor who says MRI scanners don't help curing people? > > You would be surprised how many people can't tell if their rotation is good. This requires a very specific subset of skills. > He's definitely wrong. To derive the equations using calculus, you have to remember all of the quirks and fundamental steps of calculus, let alone the shortcuts because these tests were all timed. As well as all the meaningful variables and how they interact with each other, and how to package them in such a way as to look like the equations we weren't supposed to memorize in the first place. So it is a bit like saying "You don't need my address. You just need to go left, straight, straight, right, straight, straight... left, right, then right. Also you need to know where to start." By refusing to let us memorize and just use the formulas, instead we had to memorize 10x as many steps just to get there. I got an A in the class but I'm still bitter over it. The thing about an MRI is that, while it provides a new dimension of insight, the problem it solves is fundamentally different. The MRI is there to detect abnormalities in a place that is wholly invisible without it. The DPS meter is there to measure performance in a way that people can already have a rough appraisal of. Likewise, an MRI scan is offered when the doctor already suspects from previous research that the problem might be there. Also, doctors don't say it helps curing people. They say it helps _diagnosing_ people. It's very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > > You can still compare yourself with other people in the same subgroup. The boons should be equal there. > > > > > > > > > > It's still meaningless because they are still factors out of your control that you can do nothing about. > > > > > > You remind me of a couple of math professors I've had. To anyone not in the know, college science professors are among the worst teachers you'll ever get, for to reasons. One of them is that they're just teaching to get further bonuses for their own projects. The second being that they're so wrapped up in their own little ivory tower that they've forgotten how everyone else is. The worst case I had was a physics professor who claimed that the class required no memorization, asserting that you could derive every single one of the dozens of equations using only logic and calculus, while also refusing to let us use calculators because he believed it was easy to do square root functions in our heads. > > > > > > This is you. The case you're making here is essentially "DPS meters improve you, so long as you have the natural inclination, drive, and free time to improve DPS while also having intimate a priori knowledge of the game's systems in which you can systematically and heuristically improve through various iterations and directly testing hypothesis, but ignore all of that latter stuff. It's totally the DPS meter that does all of it." You're taking the all of the creativity, ingenuity, and drive that existed long before DPS meters existed, and saying post hoc that DPS meters are responsible for all of it _just because you know that is the real thing that improves people._ We were comparing lupi speedkills and dungeon speedclears long before there was a DPS meter in the game. The only thing the meter does is make measuring the outcome of our efforts more convenient. Like how a yard stick is better than counting hands. > > > > To be fair this physics professor was correct in the sense that all these things can be logically derived and should be learned as such to get the most out of it. > > > > On you're general response, i prefer the MRI scanner example. An MRI scanner doesn't magicly cure you, correct. But tell me which hospital doesn't have one, or a doctor who says MRI scanners don't help curing people? > > > > You would be surprised how many people can't tell if their rotation is good. This requires a very specific subset of skills. > > > > He's definitely wrong. To derive the equations using calculus, you have to remember all of the quirks and fundamental steps of calculus, let alone the shortcuts because these tests were all timed. As well as all the meaningful variables and how they interact with each other, and how to package them in such a way as to look like the equations we weren't supposed to memorize in the first place. So it is a bit like saying "You don't need my address. You just need to go left, straight, straight, right, straight, straight... left, right, then right. Also you need to know where to start." By refusing to let us memorize and just use the formulas, instead we had to memorize 10x as many steps just to get there. I got an A in the class but I'm still bitter over it. > Math never should be about memorization, ever (cause understanding why the steps happen is more usefull then memorizing the steps). But were probably getting sidetracked. > The thing about an MRI is that, while it provides a new dimension of insight, the problem it solves is fundamentally different. The MRI is there to detect abnormalities in a place that is wholly invisible without it. The DPS meter is there to measure performance in a way that people can already have a rough appraisal of. Likewise, an MRI scan is offered when the doctor already suspects from previous research that the problem might be there. Also, doctors don't say it helps curing people. They say it helps _diagnosing_ people. It's very different. To cure people you need to diagnose so the distinction is relativly moot. People have almost no rough appraisal on the dps a single person generates. It gets averaged out by the amount of people. That is why it can be usefull, it makes a much more accurate assesment. Quite a few thing you will use an MRI on can be seen without it (a camera can be used for a lot nowadays although is would be much more intrusive) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Good lord why does everyone who wants to fight with me also keep the same bizarre schedule. > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > I don't care. > Yes this seems to be your general attitude to anything that doesn't fit your personal narrative. This is BS. I'm presenting an argument, not a "narrative," and you know it. BTW, the reason I say "I don't care" is because that person has delved into a pool of irrelevance and is using a fallacious argument. I used to go into the latin and all the philosophy of logic, but nobody cared for it. So now, if you say something irrelevant or stupid I just dismiss it with "I don't care," because it isn't a good argument anyway. > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > **The tool doesn't improve you directly no, but it helps you identify the issues so you know WHAT to improve as well as it tells a group WHO needs to improve. Those are two very important elements in improvement.** > You can only actively improve something when you know it's you and you know what you need to do better. Other, more experienced players or guides, can then help with the HOW. > Essentially there are three main elements here to enable improvement. WHO, WHAT and HOW? Parsers help you with the WHO and WHAT. Then the player can get help from other players, video's, guides etc. for the HOW. And then there is the last part which is about the players ability to learn and execute. That is something that no one can do for you. Some people know their limits, some don't. > THAT'S MY POINT!!!! The other half of my point is that it is poor at identifying issues beyond MOAR DPS/BOONS/HEALS, and doesn't convey what needs to be done to improve. All a player is going to get from the meter is "do more damage, get hit less," which at best you can only hope will improve over time. Any player who is aware of what DPS is and currently cares about their DPS is going to be trying to do good DPS, and the DPS meter might as well be empty praise at that point. "Keep trying, you'll get there!" says the DPS meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > So then it is the combination of a guide + practice that improves you. > > > > > > Tell me, how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? And don't answer because you do the rotation well on the static golem, that doesn't count. > > > > You can tell when the enemies die faster, the rotation feels smoother and flows more easily, you see it canceled and interrupted less, when you personally stall and reposition less, when the numbers appear higher and faster, and you spend less time avoiding being hit by enemy attacks. > > All that in no way tell you that you are following the rotation well. Nice try though. > The question is still the same: how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? It really does. If you know rotation, you can tell when you mess up. For example, the burst rotation for chronomancer requires activating continuum split during the after cast of the healing signet to triple up on phantasms. Missing this window causes you to miss out on 1/3rd of the phantasms casts. But, maybe I need a meter to tell me that missing 1/3rd of the phantasms is killing my DPS. I mean, I wouldn't have a clue that it's a horrible mistake without a meter to tell me. Quit being stubborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > It really does. If you know rotation, you can tell when you mess up. For example, the burst rotation for chronomancer requires activating continuum split during the after cast of the healing signet to triple up on phantasms. Missing this window causes you to miss out on 1/3rd of the phantasms casts. But, maybe I need a meter to tell me that missing 1/3rd of the phantasms is killing my DPS. I mean, I wouldn't have a clue that it's a horrible mistake without a meter to tell me. It doesn't. Even if you know the rotation you can't tell when you mess up. The only objective way to see if you messed up in combat is to compare results. Skill by skill. To see what you are missing and what you are doing wrong. Anything other than that is pointless in figuring out if you are doing the rotation well. I'm gonna ask one more time and then dismiss you as a troll, how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? Without your excuses and non sense. > Quit being stubborn. *roll eyes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > And yet I only said that parsers are needed to help you improve because it tells you where (who) the issue lies and what the issues are. You are talking about the how which I didn't mention. That's what I mean with you not reading properly. You replied to me saying that it's a myth that parsers tell you how to change it but I didn't say that in my post. I only said that you need it because it gives you information that you need to be able to figure out where the issues lie. Considering that you already agree with me on most of this, I'm not even sure why I bother. Look, you know what I mean. Without the "How" you might as well have nothing at all. We agree on this. We also agree that the meter is great at finding the weakest link (who). The issue (what) is explained poorly, and the reason why you don't see this is you're an experienced raider who already knows all of the various tricks on how to do good DPS and manage mechanics. Anyone who isn't an experienced player intimately familiar with their class and game mechanics isn't going to know "what" the problem is, beyond the vague notion that they should be doing better. This is the part that we do not agree with. You don't need a parser to to help you improve. You need a guide and practice. > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > This is a load of kitten. Parsers are the easiest way to determine in a group who does subpar DPS and what sort of things they are or aren't doing and by how much they need to increase. People aren't that honest or aware a lot of the time. It's not just about you, there's a group and they need to all know they're doing their part and the leader needs to know who to focus on to help people get better. I'm talking about on a personal level. We already agree that DPS meters are good at finding who is doing the worst. What we don't agree with is that they tell you what sort of things a person needs to do beyond "better." To do that, you have to already have extensive knowledge on the abilities and roles of that build, and then you have to convey that information to that person directly. That's not the meter's work. > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > Nope, I'm talking about identifying who's struggling and having information to help find out what needs to improve so you can help them with the how. Why bless your heart. I wish most people I've met who used meters were this kind. Not a single person I've seen win-kick another player bother to tell them what their mistakes were. > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > Again, you put words into my mouth that I never spoke. Of course a parser isn't going to directly improve you. It helps identify the players and a number of the issues so you don't have to waste time focusing on the wrong things and waste time on players who are less than honest. I put words in your mouth because people feel act in ways that are neither explicitly understood by themselves, nor are they adept enough to vocalize these thoughts. This whole particular paragraph was generalities of the Darwinian education system, as applied formally and informally by society as a whole. If it doesn't apply to you, then good for you. > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > And it forever irks me that people are biased and put words into other people's mouths because they can't see beyond their bias. I mean we can all abolish books and schools so that people can't learn from each other and have to do it all themselves but it's part of the human experience to learn from each other. Parsers only identify where the issues are and give you information to help you figure out what the problem is. Parsers aren't magical devices that fix your problems, they help you fix them if you are willing and able. > You're just spouting generalities in an attempt to dismiss my arguments. There is no bias. There are a set of claims and notions that are contradictory, violations of common sense, wholly ignorant of the human condition, kept afloat by motivated reasoning, and **to every single one of these claims I have provided counter-arguments to explain the irrationality of it all.** You basically agree with me, so why so much aggro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: >You basically agree with me, so why so much aggro? Don't put this on me. You started arguing with me about something I never said. That's why. You did this, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > To cure people you need to diagnose so the distinction is relativly moot. > > People have almost no rough appraisal on the dps a single person generates. It gets averaged out by the amount of people. That is why it can be usefull, it makes a much more accurate assesment. Quite a few thing you will use an MRI on can be seen without it (a camera can be used for a lot nowadays although is would be much more intrusive) Interestingly, most of the treatments I have for my mystery diseases have been the opposite. My doctors have no clue what is wrong with me, so they shove a bunch of pills down my gullet and if one of them works, then that is what I had. You'd be amazed how hard it is to get idiopathic neuropathy diagnosed. However I digress. In a group setting it can be harder to identify better DPS, relying instead on soft appeals like how well everything flows and how fast the numbers appear. For a player who does no solo content and also never practice on the golem, I can see the use for a personal appraisal. Maybe it is my lone wolf bias here, because I run around a lot either by myself or with a single player, where it is really easy to see how well I'm doing. But, if you do practice on a golem and study other people's guides, you can a good feel for what is supposed to happen and what went wrong. Once you know the apex of damage, you can set that as a mental standard and compare how well you do against a golem with how well you do in real combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > It really does. If you know rotation, you can tell when you mess up. For example, the burst rotation for chronomancer requires activating continuum split during the after cast of the healing signet to triple up on phantasms. Missing this window causes you to miss out on 1/3rd of the phantasms casts. But, maybe I need a meter to tell me that missing 1/3rd of the phantasms is killing my DPS. I mean, I wouldn't have a clue that it's a horrible mistake without a meter to tell me. > > It doesn't. Even if you know the rotation you can't tell when you mess up. The only objective way to see if you messed up in combat is to compare results. Skill by skill. To see what you are missing and what you are doing wrong. Anything other than that is pointless in figuring out if you are doing the rotation well. > > I'm gonna ask one more time and then dismiss you as a troll, how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? Without your excuses and non sense. > > > Quit being stubborn. > > *roll eyes* You can't tell? Really? Because I thought that, when I accidentally swapped to earth attunement on my sword weaver, that it interrupted my combo and lowered my DPS. Maybe I should consult the almighty DPS meter to see if accidentally swapping to earth attunement is slowing me down. See, I thought that if I practiced on the golem and got good numbers there, then if I _don't_ do the thing that gives me good numbers then I'm doing less good. Silly me. You do realize that this is more of an indictment against you than me, right? You honestly mean to tell me that you can't see your mistakes in real time, see when things have gone wrong due to circumstance or personal error, or can't tell that you're doing well when the pre-planned rotation executes smoothly with no delays, cancels, or interrupts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > It really does. If you know rotation, you can tell when you mess up. For example, the burst rotation for chronomancer requires activating continuum split during the after cast of the healing signet to triple up on phantasms. Missing this window causes you to miss out on 1/3rd of the phantasms casts. But, maybe I need a meter to tell me that missing 1/3rd of the phantasms is killing my DPS. I mean, I wouldn't have a clue that it's a horrible mistake without a meter to tell me. > > > > It doesn't. Even if you know the rotation you can't tell when you mess up. The only objective way to see if you messed up in combat is to compare results. Skill by skill. To see what you are missing and what you are doing wrong. Anything other than that is pointless in figuring out if you are doing the rotation well. > > > > I'm gonna ask one more time and then dismiss you as a troll, how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? Without your excuses and non sense. > > > > > Quit being stubborn. > > > > *roll eyes* > > You can't tell? Really? Because I thought that, when I accidentally swapped to earth attunement on my sword weaver, that it interrupted my combo and lowered my DPS. Maybe I should consult the almighty DPS meter to see if accidentally swapping to earth attunement is slowing me down. See, I thought that if I practiced on the golem and got good numbers there, then if I _don't_ do the thing that gives me good numbers then I'm doing less good. Silly me. > > You do realize that this is more of an indictment against you than me, right? You honestly mean to tell me that you can't see your mistakes in real time, see when things have gone wrong due to circumstance or personal error, or can't tell that you're doing well when the pre-planned rotation executes smoothly with no delays, cancels, or interrupts? Yes that's the normal situation for most people. Noticing you canceled a skill is absolutely nontrivial. You where earlier talking about people stuck in their ivory tower. Do you think you might be one of these people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > >You basically agree with me, so why so much aggro? > Don't put this on me. You started arguing with me about something I never said. > > That's why. You did this, not me. But you did say it. The whole "where the problem is" is vacuous nonsense, with the exception of finding out the worst person in the group. Every other connotation either means something common sense (needing to know where to stand, how to avoid attacks, when the boss is vulnerable, knowing the rotations, etc) or something utterly meaningless beyond indicating a problem exists (low dexterity, computer or system lag, hardware problems, improper understanding of rates, bizarre glitches and bugs, dumb luck, unfamiliar with build/class/game, etc.), in which a DPS meter provides no means to improve. Even if you were solely speaking about finding bads and helping or reprimanding them, the fact the remains that what I am talking about is still one of the biggest and most stubborn myths following DPS meters. So big that half a dozen people came to defend this myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > Ive played since launch and I didnt get better at dps until I installed a meter. I didnt get better for 4 years through 'button mashing' and I wouldnt have done either unless the dps meter was there. > > > > The fact I didnt know it automatically is not proof at all. I actually used tools at my disposal and learned something I couldnt without that tool. Its actually ridiculous to say that because I didnt magically gain knowledge just from installing a meter that its worthless. > > > > If you have lag thats a totally seperate issue and not mine or dps meteres fault. > > Personally I find it hard to believe that you have practiced, effective rotations on the training golem and yet not a lick of it translated into real gameplay. If you already knew what to do and how to do it, then it is only a matter of time and practiced that you'll eventually get better at that one thing. Then again, the weaver is like that. I also happen to know from experience that playing a staff weaver in PUG fractals is like pulling teeth; all of the skills have long activation times with long animation times, and the build is so frail. It is incredibly easy for things to go wrong, with one of those things being underestimating the burst of your fellow teammates. You refuse to believe me but have no reasom for doing so other than it doesnt fit your personal opinion. I assure you I was hitting 70 to 80 benchmark on golem but doing 8k on vg. Moving so much to avoid blues ect fked up my timing that badly and I didnt realise at all until I looked at a dps meter. > > But regardless, my point is with my experience that a DPS meter gives absolutely no guidance on how to fix the issues that I am facing. Everything I posted up is just my best guess for why things don't work. To take staff weaver in fractals as an example again, one of the issues with the build is that other players will be late in setting the stage for the fight, ignoring the AoEs I've already placed down and dragging enemies away from them. The meter is definitely going to say my DPS is low, but how do you compensate for unpredictable teammates? The meter certainly doesn't tell me that. > If you cant find any guidance from a meter then you are either not using it to its full potential or are the best player in the game. Dmg on trash mobs is totally irrelevant in this game and honesly if we are having a serious discussion about the value of monitoring dps performance then you should already know this. > If you're already driven to improve and have enough insight in the game's mechanics to pursue avenues of testing, the meter is a useful tool, but all it does is measure the progress. It doesn't make the progress. I mean, the case you are making here is that you were willfully careless for most of the game's life, and the meter is what made you decided to try harder. That's sort of a _you_ issue. > Yes exactly. Installing a dps meter doesnt magically make you better. It DOES give you a tool that will firstly inform you that you are either doing poorely or well. It will then give you a breakdown of where you or your team is going wrong. It is obvioisly then up to you to either work to fix the problem or ignore it. Dps meter is a tool, one which gives feedback that you cant recieve anywhere else that you can use to improve. I had no feedback previously that I was interrupting key skills in my rotation and causing crap dps. I used the dps meter as a tool to learn this and then used my skills to correct it. Without the tool I would have remained ignorant. > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > Never seen it happen with regards to thieves and revs. Seen it happen with necro. Different examples. Dont strawman my argument. You even said 'probably happens all the time'. Indicating you dont have a clue if it happens or not. Now you change to 'i see it all the time'. Well maybe in NA it happens all the time. In EU it does not. > > Here's the secret: I'm not actively playing the game at the moment. There's always a chance that the community as a whole has abruptly decided to stop all of the shenanigans that I complain about. It's very low, but there's still a chance. I have to say "probably" a lot because unless I happen to be standing _right there_ when it happens, I won't have direct information on the subject. Unless you're talking about the scale of the myth, in which case I have no direct measurements other than hearing it a lot. > > But nonetheless _I have seen it._ In the past, I would see groups all the time that asked for specific classes. During the condi era there were a lot of scourge only parties, followed by "REV and FB ONLY". After that, the two popular DPS classes were weaver and holosmith. I'd see "HOLO, WEAVER ONLY" LFGs up on a daily basis. After the updates to Deadeye (before the nerfs), I would see "DEADEYE ONLY" parties. The caps aren't an exaggeration, they would put their demands up just like that. In some of the less restrictive groups, they would just omit certain classes. "No Necro" is the most common one. I would occasionally browse through the raid LFGs, and they'd be asking for specific DPS classes, too. The point of all this is that it is post meter, and thus it contradicts the idea that DPS meters allow disliked classes to prove themselves. When you get groups demanding only Chronobuffer, Druid Healer, and x3 Deadeyes, it means that 5 classes are being omitted via decisions based on the DPS meter. Poor decisions, I might add, since deadeyes have terrible cleave. > Then why on earth are you arguing about the state of a game you dont even play. @.@ Balance is in a great spot atm with most builds doing comeptitive dps so groups are not strict on which dps they bring. Like I said ive never seen a restriction requiring only thieves or revs in EU. > Don't say something doesn't happen, then immediately give an example of it happening. The exception does not prove the rule. > Again dont strawman my argument. I said ive never seen exclusive thieves or rev groups. I said ive seen power dps only for fracs. Totally different things. Also you dont need cleave in raids for 90% of encounters. Thief cleave is sufficient for trash like sab adds. Its only a problem on events like escort. > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > Yes its either because the player or his teammates played poorely. Raids are a static environment, they never change. Its perfectly reasonable for someone to anticipate oncoming damage and avoid it to remain above 90% if they are a highly experienced player as the damage happens the same way every single time and can be learned to be avoided. > > If the teammates change then the environment is changing. It is silly to say that the only reason people upkeep the scholar bonus is because the meter tells them to. Not only is it natural to maintain as much health as possible, but when somebody is aware that a certain tactic is the best way to do something, they will continue to attempt to do it without having being told their exact performance. Aside from the flanking example, the scholar bonus is exceptionally ludicrous, because it asserts that players aren't actively _trying to stay alive_ unless the meter tells them to. I already said player OR HIS TEAMMATES. The actual encounter and therefor the source of the damage remains static. Again you are missing the point. Ofc everyone knows they want to upkeep scholar as much as possible. This almost never happens though due to mistakes. The dps meter is a TOOL that will point exaclt where and when these mistakes are happening. The player can then focus on imrpoving their gameplay in these targeted areas to upmeep scholar. Without that tool they firstly cant even know what their actual scholar uptime was. And secondly have no idea where they are going wrong unless they sit and watch combat log during an active fight..not realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > >You basically agree with me, so why so much aggro? > > Don't put this on me. You started arguing with me about something I never said. > > > > That's why. You did this, not me. > > But you did say it. The whole "where the problem is" is vacuous nonsense, with the exception of finding out the worst person in the group. Every other connotation either means something common sense (needing to know where to stand, how to avoid attacks, when the boss is vulnerable, knowing the rotations, etc) or something utterly meaningless beyond indicating a problem exists (low dexterity, computer or system lag, hardware problems, improper understanding of rates, bizarre glitches and bugs, dumb luck, unfamiliar with build/class/game, etc.), in which a DPS meter provides no means to improve. Even if you were solely speaking about finding bads and helping or reprimanding them, the fact the remains that what I am talking about is still one of the biggest and most stubborn myths following DPS meters. So big that half a dozen people came to defend this myth. You are starting to seriously tick me off for two reasons. First you are unwilling to admit your fault in this and secondly, yet again, you show a complete lack of understanding of what DPS meters actually do and what you can do with that. I will give you one more reply to sort yourself out here and if you have to argue for the sake of arguing you can do that with someone else. What I said was this: > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is. > Please note that this is the comment you replied to initially by calling it a myth. Please tell what exactly in that text says anything different. I specified that you need to beat the boss within the enrage timer and that you need to improve to fix that. There is a FULL STOP after that. Then I asked the question about how you are able to improve the problem if you don't know where the problem is. So that's a QUESTION, not a statement. And then I answered the question myself that DPS meters will tell you where the problem lies. That means, and please do your best to not be combative and just honest, that I did NOT state that DPS meters improve your DPS. I SIMPLY DID NOT SAY THAT. You can keep insisting I did but the proof is here. I did NOT say it. You're the one to blame here. Now for the rest of your comments. You are again arguing about the how. So please tell me how many times I have to tell you that I agree it doesn't tell you the how before you actually accept it? Frankly it's getting really annoying. You even said that we agree on it, which is true, but you continue to insist arguing about how-elements after we already established that we have no argument there. And really some of the descriptions put in there clearly demonstrate that you have no idea about how raid groups can use them. I already stated multiple times that it's the people with wrong attitudes that are the problem. I was a raid leader in SWTOR and I started with a group of new players who never raided before. I taught them how to gear up, how to use some core skills and players got advice from experienced players about DPS and they practiced with parsers to see their improvement and during progression raids we used it to see who was struggling and all in a spirit of support to make the team successful. It was never about reprimanding or finding the worst player but making sure the team was successful together. And yes I did have to ask one or two people to leave the group because they weren't improving and we kept failing to beat the bosses we were working on. But always with the invitation to take time to improve, ask for help and be welcome whenever they could perform as needed. When you have enrage timers you have no choice. Everybody needs to participate or we don't kill the boss. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everybody is good at raids, just like not everybody is good at pvp or whatever. So please stop arguing with me on things we agree on. Just admit you misinterpreted my initial post so we can move on from this. I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this. And please realize that not all raiders who use parsers are elitist jerks who use them to kick people down or out. That's the people doing that, not the parser and not all people are like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > Yes that's the normal situation for most people. Noticing you canceled a skill is absolutely nontrivial. You where earlier talking about people stuck in their ivory tower. Do you think you might be one of these people? Why yes, I am forever paranoid that I am truly mad, but meticulously witty enough to explain it all away. Tis the folly of the mind, wherein the instrument to judge its effectiveness is itself in question. Anyway, I notice that it comes in waves. Sometimes I have a good day, where everything goes well and there are no problems. It's almost beautiful when it happens. Sometimes I have a bad day, wherein it feels like my entire rotation is wading through hummus. It affects different classes, too. Something like Daredevil, Holo, or Herald I am wholly consistent in, but other things like the Weaver and the Mirage practically feel like a roll of the dice. In fact, the only time anyone has ever had problems with my DPS, it was on the Weaver. Sometimes I'm highest in the group, sometimes I'm lowest (outside of support roles). It is frustrating, because my Ele is friggen sexy and I want to play her all the time, but it is hard to do so because everything goes so wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > Yes that's the normal situation for most people. Noticing you canceled a skill is absolutely nontrivial. You where earlier talking about people stuck in their ivory tower. Do you think you might be one of these people? > > Why yes, I am forever paranoid that I am truly mad, but meticulously witty enough to explain it all away. Tis the folly of the mind, wherein the instrument to judge its effectiveness is itself in question. > > Anyway, I notice that it comes in waves. Sometimes I have a good day, where everything goes well and there are no problems. It's almost beautiful when it happens. Sometimes I have a bad day, wherein it feels like my entire rotation is wading through hummus. It affects different classes, too. Something like Daredevil, Holo, or Herald I am wholly consistent in, but other things like the Weaver and the Mirage practically feel like a roll of the dice. In fact, the only time anyone has ever had problems with my DPS, it was on the Weaver. Sometimes I'm highest in the group, sometimes I'm lowest (outside of support roles). It is frustrating, because my Ele is friggen sexy and I want to play her all the time, but it is hard to do so because everything goes so wrong. Doesn't take away that noticing how good you're dps is is quite hard, the moment dps meters became allowed somebody compiled data how good pugs where on spefic classes and how good they thought where. I think dunner-kruger explains this well. People think of themselfs as the average performs most of the time. On the thing about diagnoses and curing. Diagnosing makes the curing easier. You're counterexample doesn't counter that as they did diagnoses, just partial ones. The better the tools to diagnose the easier the cure. The tools dont cure but are invaluable to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > So then it is the combination of a guide + practice that improves you. > > > > Tell me, how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? And don't answer because you do the rotation well on the static golem, that doesn't count. > > You can tell when the enemies die faster, the rotation feels smoother and flows more easily, you see it canceled and interrupted less, when you personally stall and reposition less, when the numbers appear higher and faster, and you spend less time avoiding being hit by enemy attacks. Yeah but you have "feelings" as proof... And now that you improved, can you improve anymore? And how would you tell if the difference would be small? How can you say that something that measures what's you've done in a concrete, non-feelings based way, doesn't help anyone? What does "help" even mean for you in this context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Meters are everywhere in the game. Accept it. Wait a minute... What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > You refuse to believe me but have no reasom for doing so other than it doesnt fit your personal opinion. I assure you I was hitting 70 to 80 benchmark on golem but doing 8k on vg. Moving so much to avoid blues ect kitten up my timing that badly and I didnt realise at all until I looked at a dps meter. My reason for doing so is that it seems unrealistic. On the one hand, you have touched on the best argument for DPS meters improving players (which is increasing the awareness of DPS as a concept to the general playerbase, which is possible but iffy), and your experience with weaver reflects the experience that a lot of people have, myself included. However, the one thing that doesn't make sense is the projection. Even without knowing that you weren't doing the best on weaver, players generally improve as they play the game. Knowing the proper rotation of skills and repeating content over and over again _should_ have increased your skill level. To say that it not only didn't but never would is... unusual. There is remarkable dissonance to claim that the strategies you practiced over and over again weren't being implemented in the rest of the game, or that they didn't improve upon your abilities in any way. It's like saying that doing all of your homework and assignments for a class perfectly didn't prepare you for a test, because the concepts all faded away the moment you walked into the class. Theoretically possible, but hard to explain how it could keep happening over and over again. > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > If you cant find any guidance from a meter then you are either not using it to its full potential or are the best player in the game. > > Dmg on trash mobs is totally irrelevant in this game and honesly if we are having a serious discussion about the value of monitoring dps performance then you should already know this. You don't find guidance from a meter. You find guidance from guides. The meter just gives statistics and what you currently did. Also, I wish that damage on trash mobs was irrelevant, but it is only thus if everyone unanimously agrees. However, one of the two times I was win-kicked was because I didn't do good damage on trash mobs. > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > Yes exactly. Installing a dps meter doesnt magically make you better. It DOES give you a tool that will firstly inform you that you are either doing poorely or well. It will then give you a breakdown of where you or your team is going wrong. It is obvioisly then up to you to either work to fix the problem or ignore it. Dps meter is a tool, one which gives feedback that you cant recieve anywhere else that you can use to improve. > > I had no feedback previously that I was interrupting key skills in my rotation and causing kitten dps. I used the dps meter as a tool to learn this and then used my skills to correct it. Without the tool I would have remained ignorant. That is sort of the point that I'm trying to make. A meter is a good tool for measuring performance, but an entire world of information and theory craft needs to exist before any significant improvements can be made. Otherwise you're awash in an aimless ocean of numbers. If you're smart you can theory craft on your own, but that will require a lot of testing, a lot of skill, and good hardware. The thing is, you should have had feedback for interrupting skills. They'll either go on a 5 second cooldown, or they won't fire off most of their projectiles, or the animation will abruptly change without the skill firing off. I can see every time Pyroclastic Blast mysteriously doesn't work. > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > Then why on earth are you arguing about the state of a game you dont even play. @.@ > > Balance is in a great spot atm with most builds doing comeptitive dps so groups are not strict on which dps they bring. Like I said ive never seen a restriction requiring only thieves or revs in EU. Even if I am not currently playing the game a lot, I still have a vested interest in the current state and the projected state of the game. Likewise, I still possess the the desire to wax philosophy about the game, as evidence by my being here. It's within my right, after all, to offer my thoughts on the matter. Balance is indeed good at the moment. Except for Scourge. If we're discussing the philosophy of meters and the impact it has on peoples behavior, then we can't ignore that when balance is slightly more off than current, we see discrimination. Balance is a fickle thing, and if tides shift we'll see discrimination again. > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > > I already said player OR HIS TEAMMATES. The actual encounter and therefor the source of the damage remains static. Again you are missing the point. Ofc everyone knows they want to upkeep scholar as much as possible. This almost never happens though due to mistakes. The dps meter is a TOOL that will point exaclt where and when these mistakes are happening. The player can then focus on imrpoving their gameplay in these targeted areas to upmeep scholar. > > Without that tool they firstly cant even know what their actual scholar uptime was. And secondly have no idea where they are going wrong unless they sit and watch combat log during an active fight..not realistic. My point is that you already know what to do and where it goes wrong: Keep maximum health, it goes wrong when you get hit. It's not rocket science. Knowing the precise time isn't important when you know the ideal time (100%) and are actively looking to reduce damage/get healed to keep it up. Having a meter tell you the exact duration is cool, but not particularly helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDraco.8306 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Um dude thats nice, but i didn't actually say any of those things. This is getting wacky. Why would you put someone elses post under my name? Also: "The meter just gives statistics and what you currently did." Which can guide you durrrr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > You honestly mean to tell me that you can't see your mistakes in real time, see when things have gone wrong due to circumstance or personal error, or can't tell that you're doing well when the pre-planned rotation executes smoothly with no delays, cancels, or interrupts? That's only a feeling. I might feel the rotation executes smoothly with no delays, but you can never be sure until something written tells you as such. Until then it's only a "feeling" of doing alright. Is it backed up by hard data or not? Having a feeling and knowing what to do is meaningless, if you cannot back that up in an actual situation. And the only way to back up and actually improve yourself is by having hard data, numbers. How do you know that you are performing the rotation well? has only one answer: by seeing you are performing well using actual data, not feelings. For some reason you cannot seem to understand this anyway so it's probably wasted words, but besides all that, if everyone could see what they are doing wrong, where their problem with execution is, we wouldn't need dps meters, or anything like them, because everyone would perform perfectly even the most complex rotations on the most complex boss fights. But the reality is, very few players are perfect like that and a dps meter is a perfect tool to bring the ego of some people like yourself down, those who mumble about how well they perform and "feel" like their rotation is natural without interrupts, yet they aren't always backed by data. Overconfidence can be a really bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > You are starting to seriously tick me off for two reasons. First you are unwilling to admit your fault in this and secondly, yet again, you show a complete lack of understanding of what DPS meters actually do and what you can do with that. I will give you one more reply to sort yourself out here and if you have to argue for the sake of arguing you can do that with someone else. > > What I said was this: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is. > > > Please note that this is the comment you replied to initially by calling it a myth. Please tell what exactly in that text says anything different. I specified that you need to beat the boss within the enrage timer and that you need to improve to fix that. There is a FULL STOP after that. Then I asked the question about how you are able to improve the problem if you don't know where the problem is. So that's a QUESTION, not a statement. And then I answered the question myself that DPS meters will tell you where the problem lies. > > That means, and please do your best to not be combative and just honest, that I did NOT state that DPS meters improve your DPS. > > I SIMPLY DID NOT SAY THAT. > > You can keep insisting I did but the proof is here. I did NOT say it. You're the one to blame here. > > Now for the rest of your comments. You are again arguing about the how. > > So please tell me how many times I have to tell you that I agree it doesn't tell you the how before you actually accept it? > > Frankly it's getting really annoying. You even said that we agree on it, which is true, but you continue to insist arguing about how-elements after we already established that we have no argument there. > > And really some of the descriptions put in there clearly demonstrate that you have no idea about how raid groups can use them. I already stated multiple times that it's the people with wrong attitudes that are the problem. I was a raid leader in SWTOR and I started with a group of new players who never raided before. I taught them how to gear up, how to use some core skills and players got advice from experienced players about DPS and they practiced with parsers to see their improvement and during progression raids we used it to see who was struggling and all in a spirit of support to make the team successful. It was never about reprimanding or finding the worst player but making sure the team was successful together. > > And yes I did have to ask one or two people to leave the group because they weren't improving and we kept failing to beat the bosses we were working on. But always with the invitation to take time to improve, ask for help and be welcome whenever they could perform as needed. When you have enrage timers you have no choice. Everybody needs to participate or we don't kill the boss. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everybody is good at raids, just like not everybody is good at pvp or whatever. > > So please stop arguing with me on things we agree on. Just admit you misinterpreted my initial post so we can move on from this. I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this. And please realize that not all raiders who use parsers are elitist jerks who use them to kick people down or out. That's the people doing that, not the parser and not all people are like that. This is a lot of words to say that your post was ambiguously worded and that many people could glean different meanings from what you wrote :p. We already settled the HOW, we're discussing what WHERE means. When somebody says something like "WHERE the issue lies" it can be interpreted in a variety of ways. One of those ways is in the negative: That somebody was expected to do something and was not performing such an act. I.E. somebody is saying "Person was supposed to do X, but they did not do X, which is WHERE the problem is." In this way, WHERE implies that the solution is known (X). This can also be in methodology: if you have a chain of logic or a program, the WHERE in this sense recognizes both the location in that chain of logic, and the specific error that is made. "He flipped the if-then statement, which is WHERE his mistake was." This is how I interpreted what you wrote. If this was wrong, I am sorry. But, understand that this isn't some wholly unrealistic or outlandish way to have interpreted what you wrote. It is a common sentiment that I thought you were expressing. I am not "admitting fault" because I don't think I am at fault. Misunderstandings happen, and it is hard to place blame on one person or the other for a legitimate miscommunication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDraco.8306 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > You are starting to seriously tick me off for two reasons. First you are unwilling to admit your fault in this and secondly, yet again, you show a complete lack of understanding of what DPS meters actually do and what you can do with that. I will give you one more reply to sort yourself out here and if you have to argue for the sake of arguing you can do that with someone else. > > > > What I said was this: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is. > > > > > Please note that this is the comment you replied to initially by calling it a myth. Please tell what exactly in that text says anything different. I specified that you need to beat the boss within the enrage timer and that you need to improve to fix that. There is a FULL STOP after that. Then I asked the question about how you are able to improve the problem if you don't know where the problem is. So that's a QUESTION, not a statement. And then I answered the question myself that DPS meters will tell you where the problem lies. > > > > That means, and please do your best to not be combative and just honest, that I did NOT state that DPS meters improve your DPS. > > > > I SIMPLY DID NOT SAY THAT. > > > > You can keep insisting I did but the proof is here. I did NOT say it. You're the one to blame here. > > > > Now for the rest of your comments. You are again arguing about the how. > > > > So please tell me how many times I have to tell you that I agree it doesn't tell you the how before you actually accept it? > > > > Frankly it's getting really annoying. You even said that we agree on it, which is true, but you continue to insist arguing about how-elements after we already established that we have no argument there. > > > > And really some of the descriptions put in there clearly demonstrate that you have no idea about how raid groups can use them. I already stated multiple times that it's the people with wrong attitudes that are the problem. I was a raid leader in SWTOR and I started with a group of new players who never raided before. I taught them how to gear up, how to use some core skills and players got advice from experienced players about DPS and they practiced with parsers to see their improvement and during progression raids we used it to see who was struggling and all in a spirit of support to make the team successful. It was never about reprimanding or finding the worst player but making sure the team was successful together. > > > > And yes I did have to ask one or two people to leave the group because they weren't improving and we kept failing to beat the bosses we were working on. But always with the invitation to take time to improve, ask for help and be welcome whenever they could perform as needed. When you have enrage timers you have no choice. Everybody needs to participate or we don't kill the boss. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everybody is good at raids, just like not everybody is good at pvp or whatever. > > > > So please stop arguing with me on things we agree on. Just admit you misinterpreted my initial post so we can move on from this. I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this. And please realize that not all raiders who use parsers are elitist jerks who use them to kick people down or out. That's the people doing that, not the parser and not all people are like that. > > This is a lot of words to say that your post was ambiguously worded and that many people could glean different meanings from what you wrote :p. We already settled the HOW, we're discussing what WHERE means. When somebody says something like "WHERE the issue lies" it can be interpreted in a variety of ways. One of those ways is in the negative: That somebody was expected to do something and was not performing such an act. I.E. somebody is saying "Person was supposed to do X, but they did not do X, which is WHERE the problem is." In this way, WHERE implies that the solution is known (X). This can also be in methodology: if you have a chain of logic or a program, the WHERE in this sense recognizes both the location in that chain of logic, and the specific error that is made. "He flipped the if-then statement, which is WHERE his mistake was." > > This is how I interpreted what you wrote. If this was wrong, I am sorry. But, understand that this isn't some wholly unrealistic or outlandish way to have interpreted what you wrote. It is a common sentiment that I thought you were expressing. I am not "admitting fault" because I don't think I am at fault. Misunderstandings happen, and it is hard to place blame on one person or the other for a legitimate miscommunication. The issue of "where" lies with the player using the meter. Glad we could have this nice chat, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > Yes that's the normal situation for most people. Noticing you canceled a skill is absolutely nontrivial. You where earlier talking about people stuck in their ivory tower. Do you think you might be one of these people? > > > > Why yes, I am forever paranoid that I am truly mad, but meticulously witty enough to explain it all away. Tis the folly of the mind, wherein the instrument to judge its effectiveness is itself in question. > > > > Anyway, I notice that it comes in waves. Sometimes I have a good day, where everything goes well and there are no problems. It's almost beautiful when it happens. Sometimes I have a bad day, wherein it feels like my entire rotation is wading through hummus. It affects different classes, too. Something like Daredevil, Holo, or Herald I am wholly consistent in, but other things like the Weaver and the Mirage practically feel like a roll of the dice. In fact, the only time anyone has ever had problems with my DPS, it was on the Weaver. Sometimes I'm highest in the group, sometimes I'm lowest (outside of support roles). It is frustrating, because my Ele is friggen sexy and I want to play her all the time, but it is hard to do so because everything goes so wrong. > > Doesn't take away that noticing how good you're dps is is quite hard, the moment dps meters became allowed somebody compiled data how good pugs where on spefic classes and how good they thought where. > > I think dunner-kruger explains this well. People think of themselfs as the average performs most of the time. > > > On the thing about diagnoses and curing. Diagnosing makes the curing easier. You're counterexample doesn't counter that as they did diagnoses, just partial ones. > The better the tools to diagnose the easier the cure. > The tools dont cure but are invaluable to it. Though nobody has bothered to ask me about it, I actually have mixed feelings on DPS meters. I love the training golem, since it provides a fully customize-able environment to let players test out nearly every team comp and what-if scenario possible. It is something the game definitely needed. Understanding good DPS before the golem was quite a bit harder. I still remember all the debates and videos people made, showing how well their class could complete CoF path 1, or the Ooze in Arah. Players had to sit down with calculators and make spreadsheets, and even then it as hard to put to the test. Communicating these ideas to the playerbase was even more difficult. Back then we were still trying to get players to wear berserker gear. The game is definitely better for having the raid training area. But... that's not the meter everyone is talking about. I can understand the desire to use personal meters, too. The data is interesting. Personally I don't like them, because the stress of constantly being measured gets to me. My goal in super pretendy fun time is serviceable competence, not stellar performance. The real community problems come from shared DPS meters that aggregate all players data. Or rather, how the community uses those meters. Chick or the Egg, we know the debate. Then, paranoia creeps in. I'm being watched by other people, who are already hyper-competent and don't need the meter for themselves, solely to find out who to kick for not being _good enough_. I've had to deal with the occasion staff camping power necro myself, so I can see the use in finding bads, but at the end of the day I just don't care enough. Unless we're failing miserably at an event, I am unconcerned if somebody has substandard DPS. I am in way too much pain to put that much effort in being anal-retentive. My biggest problem is that the same kind of people who take staff camping necros as a personal insult are the same ones who decided to spread falsehoods about what DPS meters actually do. At most, they bring awareness to the population the concept of DPS, which is an iffy claim at best. Chicken or the egg again, wherein the people who would download a DPS meter are the same who are likely to already know of or learn about DPS in the first place without the meter. There's no metrics on it, so it's all speculation. But this line that it makes you pro at the game, it really doesn't. There are going to be people who are simply lost among the the DPS race, having this meter on their GUI with no understanding of the concept and lacking any real insight that the meter will help them with. It's like all of the players never go into the profession forum and see people asking those simple questions about class basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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