Why can't the PC fathom the existence of Joko? (PoF spoilers)

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

 

> It's also hard to argue for sure that he's after world domination. He never once made a true attack on Kryta, Cantha, or Ascalon - let alone Orr when it was a place fresh with corpses for him to expand his rule of an undead empire. His sending R.O.X. and P.O.X. could have easily just been a distraction to trick people into thinking it wasn't Joko (after all, no one theorized it was Joko until it got revealed...).

 

And if expansion was really Joko's aim, he's had chances that he passed up. Amnoon was allowed to grow into a thriving but relatively undefended city within his zone of influence, despite that his Awakened army doesn't seem to have had anything tying them down before Kralkatorrik came south. In between Amnoon and the Bone Wall is a pretty hefty swathe of unclaimed land ripe for encroaching on, but he limits himself to an agricultural colony and hunters looking for Sunspears. That's not the behavior of a man out to expand his dominion.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Gomes.5643 said:

>

> > The Commander speaks the same regardless of race in this expansion. Humans spit on their revered war god, who was retconned into Abaddon 2.0 despite previously being wise enough to put Abbadon down.

>

> That is simply not true. That might be the case in the living story (and Anet utterly failed to give human characters an believable respond there) but in the expansion the PC actually tries multiple times to reason with Balthi and pleads him to stop this madness. I dont know if it only appears if your character chooses "blessed by balthasar" in the creation, but in the first meeting (on the second map) my char said something along the lines: "All my life I have prayed to you and received your blessings. But your actions will destroy Tyria. So please stop this!". And if your "revered war god" not only killed you personally but also creates blood and murder all over the place on his own people..... I can really believe why your fate is .... shaken.

>

> But I totally have to agree that the writing of Balthasar is absolute horrible...... You really can feel that he is made to be evil for the pure sake to have an evil villian that the player can hate. I really miss the times where the villians had an believable reasons to do the things they do and stop acting like "look how evil I am, because I am evil MUHAHA!!!"

>

>

>

> > This whole story stinks. The human gods are conveniently either villainized or rendered impotent so the writers can go ahead and write their racial harmony kumbaya cosmopolitan society. It's such a naive depiction of the world and tribalism or how geopolitical factions truly function.

>

> Oh yes..... I also have the fear that "features" of the different cultures do more and more go away .... until we have a unified mass where everything feel, acts and lives the same way. Which may be good in real life because the life of the individual is not chackled by its cultures chains .... but absolutely boring in a game. Same happened to the great orders. When we had vigil, durmand and OoW things were cool and there was so much potential to tell great stories, but then they became the pact .... and Anet had to kill them out of the story .... because they became to powerful and to boring to tell a good story with.......

>

 

Yeah, what I mean is the NPC's in Amnoon spit on him in their dialogue, your human character is dismissive of Kasmeer's faith, and during the positive victory speech you basically gloat about having disposed of Balthazar. Balthazar's death is depicted as this great thing instead of what would actually be a beyond tragic event.

 

I mean, we are wearing a legendary backpack from WvW in his name and he has blessed generations of warriors up to this point until Anet retconned him. I remember fondly the Zaishen faction in GW1, and how in GW2 anet turned them into murderous zealots. It's just awful.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > @maxwelgm.4315 said:

> > My complaint is not necessarily that the PC is antagonizing Palawa Joko (which as you guys correctly pointed out, it _should_ happen if the PC comes from a "free" society)

>

> I'm sorry, what is this "freedom" you speak of? My human comes from an absolute monarchy backed by divine right of kings where the Ministry can be shut down at her whim. My charr comes from a totalitarian military state where all subjects are required to serve in the army from birth. The sylvari have individual freedom but only the Firstborn and the Pale Tree decide on the overall direction that society should grow in and challenges against Ventari's Tablet are systemically shut down.

>

> And yet, the PC is forced to react to Joko's empire as if they were from a Western democratic liberal state.

>

> Perhaps a norn or asura would find the lack of political freedom jarring but you would think that humans of all people would be used to monarchs who indiscriminately slay their political enemies.

 

I have purposefully used "quotes" because I am well aware the societies of the five races are hardly freedom based, and this only serves to further demonstrate my point of how forcefully the PC has to stretch his logic just to make Vabbi an absurd place. My own main character and most of my characters are Norns, and yet I would expect a Norn to react with curious astonishment at least, and pity for the weak minded Vabbians at most. The same goes for a Charr, which would probably shrug it off and carry on as usual, and it goes on and on for the remaining races.

 

In the world of Tyria, Joko's *is indeed* just another empire, and Anet should have been careful that their Asian dictatorship parody didn't backfire on our suspension of disbelief (at least mine, I concede that I might be borderline nitpicking), because N. Korea _actually_ would make more sense to exist in their own Lore.

 

> @Pax.3548 said:

> Joko would antagonize us, with or without us taunting him, so why are you discussing if the commander should or shouldn't antagonize joko? the man wants to rule the world since gw1 when he tried to have all leader of tyria, cantha and elona killed. So it doesn't matter what the commander did or what he could have done, joko would still try to kill and control everyone, specially now that he think himself a god pfff

 

Joko's punchline is precisely that he has to strike deals due to his incapacity for actual rule. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if, in the end, he ends up subordinate to ~~China~~ Cantha so that basically every other king/leader doesn't flatten his country. It is not yet in canon exactly what he wants to do, but it doesn't seem to be world domination at all, and if it is, he is certainly taking the long route by trading with independent hubs such as Anmoon. We also have no idea where Joko is even _from_, and if I recall he is one of the oldest Lich we have knowledge of. Basically, the PC doesn't know who is he/she dealing with, even if they know all of Tyrian history (which is a lame point to make by itself, do Asura really care about Elonian Lore?). And it is a very bad move to quickly taunt and underestimate someone you don't actually know, specially if you're gonna tell them your plan (really PC? Telling the villain exactly what you're gonna do? Acting like a villain yourself, huh). It just bothers me that everything is setup so that the dialogue explains things a narrator should, or that we should just "get".

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @maxwelgm.4315 said:

>Why can't the PC fathom the existence of Joko?

 

The first time was because we literally didn't know who he was. We didn't know much of anything. We were newly dead lost souls who lost our purpose, even our names. Palawa Joko is agitated about this because he's a pride-filled jerk and it's inconcievable to him that anyone wouldn't know who he is.

 

The second time after we've recovered our name, purpose/memories, and free'd enough energy from the eater of souls to resurrect ourselves we are well aware of who he is. We are aware any kind of deal with him is a bad idea. Palawa Joko talks too much and does rightly point out we need an army.

 

Clever ducks we are, we notice that in the absense of Palawa Joko, his armies defer to his Mordrant Crescent. If that weren't the case we'd probably be forced into a deal with the devil but as it were, we literally did not need Palawa Joko.

 

The quality bantz and ribbing is because we're the freakin' Commander and Palawa Joko isn't the nicest person. We had to throw a little shade. Not like he's there forever. With Balathazar dead those chains that were holding him there are certainly gone.

 

He's probably going to be a little upset. But being that he is Palawa Joko, he'll probably spin the fact that we used his Awakened army into it being him who saved Elona and slayed Balthazar and his brainwashed kingdom will literally believe it since we did indeed mascarade as his archon.

 

He'll get the praise and alcolades a narcisist like himself craves. Don't worry, we haven't heard the last of Palawa Joko.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

I kind of agree.

The whole time I've learn about Joko and the Awakened within PoF, I can kind of understand the people and how they live, more than how more stuck up than I am, that my character was during the whole thing.

I do know though if I had to pick between Awakened or Risen, Awakened seems like a much nicer afterlife.

[Rognik.2579]

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> I'm sorry, what is this "freedom" you speak of? My human comes from an absolute monarchy backed by divine right of kings where the Ministry can be shut down at her whim. My charr comes from a totalitarian military state where all subjects are required to serve in the army from birth. The sylvari have individual freedom but only the Firstborn and the Pale Tree decide on the overall direction that society should grow in and challenges against Ventari's Tablet are systemically shut down.

For humans, yes, they live in a monarchy, but monarchs die while Joko is eternal.

For charr, they're all happy to serve. I've not seen a single charr express a desire not to fight, or any sort of resentment towards their lot in life. Not everyone need be a soldier, since an army marches on its stomach, meaning they also need chefs and farmers among other menial jobs. As for charr who do choose to leave luckily have Lion's Arch as a haven. Sadly, Amnoon is the nearest "Lion's Arch" to Vabbi, and it's a long journey for them to reach it.

For sylvari, the culture is very new, and still trying to work out how to run themselves. Those who do resent the Pale Tree and1 the Firstborn have gone to join the Nightmare Court. I realize the PC (short for "Pact Commander") doesn't have the option to do so, but there is an out available for them.

The point is that for those living in the Tyrian area, they have some choices, while those under Joko's rule have almost none. Those who speak against Joko have a chance of being turned into Awakened, or worse. You can't tell me Queen Jennah, Imperator Smodur, or even Minister Caudecus would do something of that caliber to their subjects.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> I kind of agree.

> The whole time I've learn about Joko and the Awakened within PoF, I can kind of understand the people and how they live, more than how more stuck up than I am, that my character was during the whole thing.

> I do know though if I had to pick between Awakened or Risen, Awakened seems like a much nicer afterlife.

 

Yeah, that kinda came off a little condescending. When I say they're brainwashed I mean they literally know nothing else. Even those that do would risk certain death and/or undeath. There's no winning the situation that Vabbi and the rest of the territory that Palawa Joko controls. Not for it's subjects at any rate. There is no good choice for them.

 

It's further complicated by the fact that in-spite of his countless negatives, he actually does a pretty great job of taking care of those who are loyal to him.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> I don't think Joko thinks himself a god, rather than he plays himself as a god. Unless years of acting up to the propaganda he spews over Vabbi (and probably Kourna and Istan) had made him convince himself to believe the act.

>

> It's also hard to argue for sure that he's after world domination. He never once made a true attack on Kryta, Cantha, or Ascalon - let alone Orr when it was a place fresh with corpses for him to expand his rule of an undead empire. His sending R.O.X. and P.O.X. could have easily just been a distraction to trick people into thinking it wasn't Joko (after all, no one theorized it was Joko until it got revealed...).

 

Well, if I remember correctly he explicitly said he wanted to control the world during our brief time in the domain of the lost (if he wasn't looking for world domination back in gw1 its sure clear he wants it now besides time isn't an issue for him, as he took his sweet time before conquering Elona). And yes, i'm pretty sure his two centuries rule convinced him he's somekind of a god, I remember him being arrogant back in gw1, no surprise in his behaviour now.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

What Joko says is "Fah! Gods, dragons, nations—soon all will grovel at the feet of Palawa Joko!" which isn't actually saying he'd conquer the world. Just that "all" will grovel at his feet. Too many interpretations, and conquest is the most direct one for a mere mortal, but well, Joko is no mere mortal.

 

Rather than thinking himself a god, it's entirely possible that the ascension of Kormir (which is said to have struck a nerve on Joko as she and the Sunspears became more popular than him, and that being one of the main reasons he set out to utterly crush the Sunspears) prompted him to believe he could attain godhood somehow.

 

But ultimately, Joko is vain and narcissistic. It seems that what he wants is less to rule, and more to just be _known_ by everyone. Be it in good or ill view.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> What Joko says is "Fah! Gods, dragons, nations—soon all will grovel at the feet of Palawa Joko!" which isn't actually saying he'd conquer the world. Just that "all" will grovel at his feet. Too many interpretations, and conquest is the most direct one for a mere mortal, but well, Joko is no mere mortal.

>

> Rather than thinking himself a god, it's entirely possible that the ascension of Kormir (which is said to have struck a nerve on Joko as she and the Sunspears became more popular than him, and that being one of the main reasons he set out to utterly crush the Sunspears) prompted him to believe he could attain godhood somehow.

>

> But ultimately, Joko is vain and narcissistic. It seems that what he wants is less to rule, and more to just be _known_ by everyone. Be it in good or ill view.

 

Yeah, well, even if that guy in a ahole, I still like his character. Hope he behaves like a proper tyrant.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @Pax.3548 said:

>Yeah, well, even if that guy in a kitten, I still like his character. Hope he behaves like a proper tyrant.

 

I like the fact that he's completely dysfunctional. People like to make the NK connection with regards to Palawa Joko but in actuality he's a very good custodian of his resources. He manages to take good care of the people in his good graces.

 

He's an absolute tyrant and a monster and really if you run around the Domain of Vabbi and experience some of the events there? You'll see how screwed up things are. But in terms of the well-being of the people? They're doing very well.

 

They're all rich and extravagant and up until Balthazar showed up they lived in relative luxury. The reality of that luxury and how he manages to do it are atrocious, but he does it.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @Rognik.2579 said:

> > @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > I'm sorry, what is this "freedom" you speak of? My human comes from an absolute monarchy backed by divine right of kings where the Ministry can be shut down at her whim. My charr comes from a totalitarian military state where all subjects are required to serve in the army from birth. The sylvari have individual freedom but only the Firstborn and the Pale Tree decide on the overall direction that society should grow in and challenges against Ventari's Tablet are systemically shut down.

> For humans, yes, they live in a monarchy, but monarchs die while Joko is eternal.

 

In addition to this, I wouldn't say that Jennah shut down the Ministry on a whim. She tolerated - or _was forces to tolerate_ - having Caudecus as the head of the Ministry despite knowing for at least ten years that Caudecus was plotting against her, and having good reason to believe that Caudecus was a traitor. It was only when Caudecus publicly came out as the leader of the White Mantle, and when it was clear to basically anyone with sense that Caudecus probably still had supporters in the Ministry, that Jennah shut it down to prevent any further damage coming from there.

 

And even then, it appears it _was_ temporary. The appointment of a new Legate Minister suggests that the government of Kryta has probably returned to its normal functioning, but without the evil ~~Grand Vizier~~ Legate Minister plotting to overthrow the throne in favour of his own tyranny.

 

Granted, Kryta is certainly no modern democracy - but from what we see, there are few restrictions on personal liberty in Kryta, and there's no signs I recall of anybody being persecuted apart from those who would be considered criminals even in modern full democracies.