Why we think WvW is not going well [Merged]

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"Tiny Doom.4380" said:

> No six year old MMO grows. They all shrink, just some faster than others. They have periodic resurgences when major expansions appear, when new ruleset servers are promoted or when they get a burst of publicity for some reason like a major anniversary but the population trend is always, inexorably downwards.

**There are examples** of MMO that have been consistantly growing past six years. In fact, that is the very purpose of MMO. Continued development where decisions you make affect your playerbase ongoing. Most games reach a point where the engines or system-level code need to be replaced and then they are faced with either doing major restoration work under the ongoing title or call it a new title. However, the engines are the #1 strength of GW2 and they are far from outdated. Few other games have neither graphics nore physics (or combat engine) that suits the MMO genre so well as GW2 has.

 

**Even more importantly**, GW2 is a game that has that potential and that is important for the WvW forum in particular because despite the state of WvW GW2 is the "open world PvP" (even if the terminology can be discussed) **market leader**, at least within the fantasy genre. ESO is the only real contender. In that sense GW2 remains the only real successor to DaoC (and GW1) without much effort being put into anything (or perhaps because no one is putting in that effort to become a threat).

 

**Every threat** to that position has either fizzled out before conception (EQN), remain stuck at concept levels (alpha/pre-alpha, CU), gone extinct (WHO), taken another route (WoW teased at rekindling its open world stuff recently but BfA was something different and as far as I can tell it's WM has not jumped off) or failed to maintain its presence (BDO, AA). I wouldn't go to BDO or AA for WvW-style content and going to ESO would be trading apples for pears from what I hear from GW2 guilds that have tried it or are trying it.

 

**The very nature** of open world PvP has been its biggest issue in GW2 because it is a mode that to a much higher degree manages itself, I think the only problem Anet has had with it in six years is that they have underestimated that "higher degree" caveat. It is a quite thankful way to design content thanks to it's nature but if you neglect it too much and let important competences (ie., core- or systems-level design) fall out of your company or your project (as such assets are usually re-tacked to new future projects past release) then it can be a difficult ship to turn around.

 

**Everything we can tell** based on Anets communication, lapsed time or timeframe and knowledge of past similar situations in other games suggests that this is the case with eg., Alliances. It isn't a road-map issue since all the things that WvW needs are quite obvious to everyone by now: both the big things and the small things as well as various routes to achieve them or how they relate to oneanother (eg., rewards vs. scoring). If you've paid attention to these forums alone you'd know it well by now. The situation simply screams priority- and asset issues. I would love to be proven wrong on that. Make no mistake, I have concerns but that concern comes from really loving this game both for what it has been and for seeing what it could be.

 

 

[Gemnaid.4219]

I would give my opinion, but Anet won’t believe me and just remove my post. So I will just not say anything to help them improve their game.

[Gemnaid.4219]

The game mode is dead. The restructuring is a clear sign and will only kill it further.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Gemnaid.4219" said:

> I would give my opinion, but Anet won’t believe me and just remove my post. So I will just not say anything to help them improve their game.

Heh.

 

I gave my opinion. I went from finishing diamond on 2 to 3 accts each week to just not logging in to the game. It seems like the alliance "fix" is at least 6 months to a year away, and even then, players are just going to continue to bandwagon and avoid ppt at all cost to face smaller enemy groups they know their blob can faceroll. WvW has devolved in to large forces doing everything they can to avoid each other so they can ktrain for ranks and loot, and Anet keeps making changes that support their choice to do that. *insert sad face*

 

[hunkamania.7561]

> @"Hadan.2841" said:

> .> @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > @"Hadan.2841" said:

> >

> > > 3. Condtions- when people tell you to bring a burst build and they show up in full dire...there is something wrong. Anet has failed for years to balance the damage multiplier per condi stack. Eventually people get sick of it and leave.

> >

> > Conditions are not even meta in zergs anymore maybe they're good in roaming but i don't really pay attention to that. only ones that matter anymore are chills, cripples, immobes and slow.

> >

> > Zerg busting is also a thing but you need 20-30 comped up players to take a blob down. aint gonna get done with 5 people unless the blob all skill clicks.

> >

>

> You say anymore..but condi zergs have been a thing for a long time and a ton of players have quit the game because of that. You can post about what is current meta but it doesn't change the fact that the condi meta chased a lot of people away. No one said anything about zerg busting with 5 so not sure where that came from

 

it's an example is all i never said you said that lol lots of things drive people away you can't really worry about it and now it's a power meta so if those people left Because of condis they should be coming back. I'm pretty sure they would have left regardless.

[PrinceKhaled.5104]

Good post @"subversiontwo.7501" that you for sharing.

 

Anet, just to make sure you understand, the majority (imo) of WvW players are unhappy with the current state. That doesn't mean we are your enemy, we actually like and care about WvW, no matter how much harsh language added in our posts. However, if players don't get changes or genuine updates soon, players will leave. This is a fact about anything in life.

Please do something genuine about WvW SOON, not just a siege update!!

 

I hope more people would continue posting their opinion.

 

 

[Hanakocz.5697]

> @"PrinceKhaled.5104" said:

 

> 3- **So-called Meta builds:** How many times have you heard "Kick this Dragon Hunter from the squad.... go have life, L2P Firebrand" or "Tempest??? wth is this guy running, kick him/her".... The mix between blobbing and following a "meta" build is very essential these days for a known pugmander or a guild. The only way you might get away with playing a class/spec you want to play is to join on an unknown pugmander, roam around or somehow your guild is okay with it, in some rare cases. This really turned off

 

This is the core of the problem though. But the other way around.

 

The side that does allow any build and people are comfy to run any, on same numbers, usually gets onepushed by side that tries to make people *think about their build and why they should bring something that has bigger value for the fight*. And those losing players on their very good dragonhunter just log off from WvW and never return again. Why would they, when they have such good build and they still have zero chance to win a fight?

 

They came to get rewards, and dying does not give any, it even does not give participation. It is total loss of time for those players. So they go away. And then you come and observe zero queues, because there are only WvW-dedicated players left.

 

Maybe it turned off you personally that you cannot run some special build, but it really impacts whole squad and makes a difference between good fight and rage-quitting scenario. And people who you want to lure into WvW are the first to leave, if they lose. So your biggest hopes are really to educate them. Have good core for a squad that they actually can follow and which won't lose already on bare sight of enemy. Give them informations what builds are better for them, and for the squad. Create ranged squad for those meme builds if the main squad is getting full with proper builds. Because that main squad is not only a thing to call players for bad builds, it is actually a tool for giving your side a victory.

 

[duillyn.2697]

The damage is out of control in smaller scale stuff. There are a whole bunch of single skills that hit upwards of 10k+. These just should not exist. Combos/setups are one thing, but a wild rev2 for 10k or vault for 15k are just toxic (vault less-so admittedly as it takes a bit more guts to be dancing around on that in the first place, but still). These aren't the only skills, not by a long-shot, just the first 2 that came to mind. There's no counter-play to that type of *single* skill damage, it's just rng. It pretty tiring to play against.

 

That said, if we want new blood there has to be builds that are pretty easy to fight on so I really don't know how to resolve issue, but it is an issue.

[Shroud.2307]

WvW has been "dying" for like 5 years now. These threads never change.

 

Although to a degree it's true, that the population has decreased, it's also to be expected. It isn't a new game anymore and the meta solidified a long time ago. This makes it difficult for new players to dive in to because they'll be met with a rigid set of rules and codes that can be tough to crack. This, among other things such as poor balance, communication and lack of content have only worsened the matter.

 

However, I do not believe it is as dire as many think. The population tends to spike during certain events and especially after major updates like expansions or balance patches. Some players will stick around and others won't, but history has shown that certain attractions are enough to sustain the WvW ecosystem.

 

At this point, I feel like those who fear for the death of WvW are like those who are having a mid-life crisis. They're realizing it's going to happen eventually and the signs are becoming more real. But that doesn't mean it's any time soon. It's okay to be concerned for the game you love but try to remember what it has endured to this point. There are many, many players that stick around after ten's of thousands of hours and many that are taking their very first baby steps with a genuine interest. I see new players in WvW all the time, you just have to develop an eye for it.

 

Just try to enjoy your time while you have it to spare. Worry about the end when it's in sight rather than when it comes to mind.

[Israel.7056]

I actually think getting rid of "matchup threads" has gone a long way towards depressing interest in WvW over time and no one is allowed to even talk about it on these forums.

 

The great unspoken joy of beating people in a video game isn't really the win itself it's how mad it makes the person who lost and being able to revel in their rage and stoke it and poke at them with taunts and insults in a very public setting. All that is completely missing from this game now.

 

I'm not claiming this has been the only factor hindering enthusiasm for WvW by any stretch of the imagination but I definitely think it put a tremendous damper on the fun.

[CzarsWarr.9864]

I've played wvw in its first months and for some time. Back in those days, any build was accepted, sieges were used more often, objectives were true objectives meant to be focused and defended, and organization and coordination were mandatory with the combo fields, the need (REAL NEED!) to stop, blast water fields to heal, blast fire fields to get might stacks, and run in again. That seems to be gone.

 

I've stopped playing because of irl issues for about 5, almost 6 years. Didn't see the other metas, so i can't talk about them. I'll just post a bit of my point of view in the current meta. Hopefully it adds some value to the discussion:

 

There is a zerg/blog importance. And probably always will be. Wvw is based on a fantasy, massive scale, medieval fight. In that case, objectives (towers, keeps, castles), supplies and sieging are KEY factors. So are strategy, numbers and positioning. I get that some people dont like to hit a fortified wall for long minutes, and yes, maybe we need some update on that. But all these factors needs to be accounted too.

 

What it seems to be one of the reasons i see numbers getting down on wvw is not only the meta builds (if i cant play properly with the build/profession i like, why would i bother to play on wvw?) and the fact that they push other professions out of wvw (hello meta of "pull-bomb-run" and "do-it-again-until-they-dont-have-numbers-to-counter-pull-on-melee-range-and-we-can-rush-in") but the distance between commanders and their pugs:

 

While i see pugs wanting to defend objectives, often sieging objectives, trying to defend them against bigger numbers; a lot of commanders just dont care too much about it. Its kinda upsetting when you spend so much time sieging objectives so we can build some time while our team reach and help us and no one comes. Its upsetting that in some cases we lose towers, keeps or even castles simply because some commanders are more interested in the open field fights and not fighting against a 10~20 man force to defend these structures. For scouts, this can be discouraging. I've listened a couple times: "we'll go there and there will be 5-10-15 there. Why do they bother calling us?", or something similar. Well, if you have 1~2 people only to defend an objective against 5~10 people, it can be hard, or even impossible without help. I know, its not challenging to fight against 10man with a raid of 30~40, but if we dont defend more people will simply leave wvw because "no one cares" or it seems to.

 

I also understand that commanders should do what they want, and I know there are different types of commanders with different tastes. If that means only doing open field battles, so be it. But i just wanted to expose these points. If someone new comes to a place where the environment is not newbie friendly, theres almost no one to teach, objectives are ignored and no matter how hard you try to help, no one will come to help you, why would you come to wvw again? They get pushed to pve, and never come back, where there are tons of guilds and people willing to teach and you can be a bit more casual with your build (unless you go to the very very end game). So it becomes hard to renew our ranks and get new people to join wvw, and it dies a little bit every day because veteran players will, at some point, leave wvw for different reasons.

 

Hope i could help with this long text.

Sorry for my grammar, english is not my mother language.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"duillyn.2697" said:

> The damage is out of control in smaller scale stuff. There are a whole bunch of single skills that hit upwards of 10k+. These just should not exist. Combos/setups are one thing, but a wild rev2 for 10k

 

Real zerg Revs run Zerk gear and crit for 16k. Just sayin' :)

 

[Grim West.3194]

It's a very slow death. Game came out in 2012 and you can still find a few fights in WvW.. Props to ANET that WvW still has legs, even if they are broken and crippled.

 

The main problem with WvW is the same it's always been, strategy and skill have zero importance, only coverage wins a match. BORING. WvW is one of the most shallow game modes ever invented. Tic Tac Toe has more strategy.

 

But Anet is in love with the transfer dollars the lemmings fork over to bandwagon to the next server of the month. As long as idiots continue to pay ANET for not doing their job, then ANET will continue (to not do their job).

[Tigaseye.2047]

I used to like WvW and play it a lot.

 

Obviously, you need balance - when you have a certain class/build that is considered surplus to requirements, that is invariably due to bad design/balancing and should be corrected.

 

Servers also need to have balanced populations - when one server always wins/loses something is (obviously) wrong.

 

I don't know exactly how you would fix this, though.

 

Same with the ongoing issue of two servers, habitually, ganging up on the other one (and often not the winning one, either!).

 

I also miss EOTM, which I played for fun.

 

The map itself is more fun than the other WvW maps, IMHO.

 

They should have made a level 80-only version of it, so max level players couldn't use it to gank levellers.

 

Instead, they basically killed it off entirely, for some unknown reason.

 

Other than that, WvW is still a good game mode - it's just that it doesn't function properly, during busy times, due to massive server overload.

 

They need to reduce the max number of players allowed on a map, fairly signifcantly.

 

Also, I was cut off from the rest of my guild, due to the changes a few months ago.

 

I could move server to join them, but I'm obviously not going to pay Anet money for a move, while WvW is unplayable for me, due to the unbelievably bad lag spikes.

[Aleen.8561]

**1- Do you think WvW is not friendly for new players ? (please don't get confused with these under-skilled/skill-capped players that has been playing this game for years)**

 

Being a new player myself, I started playing WvW since day 1 I guess. It is hard to play when you don't know your class very well, but there have always been some players around that either notice my bad gameplay and PM me some tips, or answer the questions I may have. I've never been kicked from a squad or blamed for not playing well :)

 

**3- Is WvW GW2 turned into Range Wars (Revs and Necros, with couple weavers)? What happened to damage from warriors, old school damage guardians etc?**

 

I'd say it's balanced by the necessity to push through, when melee classes shine and sometimes even do more dmg than ranged. I myself played a Reaper and yeah, I had nothing really to do until we push, but if we push, my damage was just fine :)

 

**4- I heard people complaining about stealth and pulls meta, should we factor this in as a "no fun"?**

 

It's inevitable. It's a bit confusing, when your commander gets pulled away from his squad, but that's a lesson to learn for all stability-providing classes :) Stealth is only an issue for roaming players. And well, it's one of the strongest roaming tools, in any game, so why not?

 

**5- Back in the day, no one cared about which tier they are in as long as they get fun fights. **

 

So true. I hate when our host server decides to lose to get to a lower tier next week :angry:

[shiri.4257]

1) Fix the player base mentality.

 

There are alot of new wvw players. the gap between the veterans and novices are widening each day. why? because we used to have guilds that dedicated 20hrs+ to wvw per week. but more importantly had decent training mechanisms on each server. The commanders breaknig in new wvw players were at least semi competent. currently, most of the commanders that should be training, don't want to nor have the time. So we're left with some of the most incompetent wvw commanders and their guilds teaching bad builds, bad theorycrafting, but more importantly bad habits.

 

Linkings is great, you get to see the blind teaching the blind on each server. our last link was hilarious!

[anduriell.6280]

> @"PrinceKhaled.5104" said:

>......

> Aka Prince!

 

Maybe i'm one voice here , but is my impression they did not ask for additional help yet.

Whenever they ask for it i'll gladly join.

 

With this i don't mean you shouldn't share your opinions (God knows i'm a big mouth nobody when it comes to that) but setting the thread like you did is cringy at best. It feels like you are trying to push your agenda into the life of somebody which did not ask you to do it so. It's kinda unpolite (is that an english word?) and at least in my perception creates rejection from the objective destination (in this case the devs) . This type of thread it really gives the impression you are convinced you know better than them. Which could be true or it doesn't.

 

So i'd like you to consider to think it thru the next time you decide to help. Because help is always welcome when is polite.

 

**I know you didn't ask for my help. But here i am giving it to you without you asking for it.**

 

 

[PrinceKhaled.5104]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

>

> Maybe i'm one voice here , but is my impression they did not ask for additional help yet.

> Whenever they ask for it i'll gladly join.

>

> With this i don't mean you shouldn't share your opinions (God knows i'm a big mouth nobody when it comes to that) but setting the thread like you did is cringy at best. It feels like you are trying to push your agenda into the life of somebody which did not ask you to do it so. It's kinda unpolite (is that an english word?) and at least in my perception creates rejection from the objective destination (in this case the devs) . This type of thread it really gives the impression you are convinced you know better than them. Which could be true or it doesn't.

>

> So i'd like you to consider to think it thru the next time you decide to help. Because help is always welcome when is polite.

>

> **I know you didn't ask for my help. But here i am giving it to you without you asking for it.**

 

1- I am sorry you're taking it this way, and I apologize for it.

2- I understand that you're a sitting behind a PC/Laptop/Tablet/Phone (whatever device) reading some sentences and words. If you read this again with positive intent, you won't think about it this way. If you're reading it thinking that I have a secret agenda (Seriously man?) for some reason or another. You're saying " push your agenda into the life of somebody " You can't be more wrong.... this is a product provided for the public, it is our life too. I am sorry if you cant see that!! I am not invading someone's personal life lol

 

@"anduriell.6280" I stream GW2 WvW. Most of my viewers comes from there, give me one good reason I would like to serve my top secret agenda.... which is... I donno what?!! Man, I respect your opinion but please think about it more positively. It is not like I own a video game company competing with GW2 WvW. I love this game.... we all do for the most part, but I think it is dying because of bad decisions.

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion regarding my ….. agenda?!

[ArchonWing.9480]

> 1- Do you think WvW is not friendly for new players ?

 

It is not friendly due to a number of non-intuitive/flat out broken mechanics as well as power creep and passive abilities. In addition, the community is smaller and less patient with newcomers, assuming that it's not worth it to teach or people won't care to learn anyways.

 

> 2- What happened to multiple guilds running 20 to 25 players closed raid? Why is everyone blobbing these days?

 

If you wipe a group, they'll just come back with more, forcing you to blob up too.

 

> 3- Is WvW GW2 turned into Range Wars (Revs and Necros, with couple weavers)? What happened to damage from warriors, old school damage guardians etc?

 

It's not that bad anymore with bubbles being a bit weaker, but simply put bubblebots and healbots are just too good at what they do. This also addresses your meta-thing concern. The PoF specs seem kinda fun, but they also seemed to have stratified things even more. When a guardian alone brings stab, water, and cleanses all over the place, it made many niche builds redundant, for example. Heck, they have that pull.... so why bring a DH?

 

> 4- I heard people complaining about stealth and pulls meta, should we factor this in as a "no fun"?

 

Nonexistent balance ftl

 

 

 

> 5- Back in the day, no one cared about which tier they are in as long as they get fun fights. Unfortunately that's not the case anymore and numbers/blobbing seems to matter a lot. Since the linking system is regulated by a crappy system, it is more of a luck whether you get linked with good server or not. Anet thinks they got it all sorted our since they have so-called valid statists and numbers . How do you think Anet can fix this? Ignore the fact that Alliances is coming out soon, because you never know!

 

The population is not what it once was. People don't want to be stuck down in low tiers because there is nothing to fight there, but at the same time nobody wants to put the effort to stay up and try to leech off PPT'ers while at the same time calling them names. Also, at the end of the day, people care about winning the most and don't want to lose.... which actually really answers all 5 questions tbh. As long as the game is playable for them for the few hours they and their crew log on.... screw the rest. This is just the natural result.