Cristalyan.5728 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Kenagin.3529 said: > > You're making a lot of assumptions not based on actual lore. > > She doesn't say, is not considered. She says: "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer **Part** of **The Six**." In response to Rytlock saying Balthazar is one of the Six. They are still called The Six but Balthazar is no longer one of The Six. When Abaddon was cast down, they no longer called themselves the Six but the **Five True Gods** > > >And so did Kormir and her allies engage the dark god in titanic battle. And through her power, and their combined skill and bravery, and the blessings of the Five True Gods, did Abaddon at last face his ultimate defeat. > [Wiki page Kormir](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kormir "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kormir") > > Grenth is Dwayna's son. But iirc it's never mentioned that the other Gods helped Grenth. Grenth defeated Dhuum and took his place. (and claiming his title) Not Dwayna giving him the title. However Dhuum is still alive as far as we know. He is no longer a God but still powerfull. Stronger than a mere mortal. (he managed to break free from his prison) And that is also why Balthazar is still powerfull, he is no longer a true God, but still a very powerfull being. Capable of absorbing large quantities of magic. > > Your conclusion makes no sense when reading the bits of lore spreaded throughout Tyria. The wiki page of Grenth says the following: > > >Grenth is the god of darkness, ice, and death. Originally a half-god, Grenth was the child of Dwayna and a mortal sculptor and the first god born of Tyria, with domain over mortality and judgment and called the "Prince of Ice and Sorrow." To Orrians, Grenth was the god of death and judgment, and the patron of strict ethics. Grenth ascended to godhood with the aid of the Seven Reapers by supplanting the previous god of death, Dhuum, in Orr and sealing him behind the enchanted doors of the Hall of Judgement. Grenth then shattered Dhuum's tower in the Underworld, creating the Chaos Planes. He took his place among the gods in the presence of his mother, in the spot where his father had fallen. As a god, he is attributed to the judgment of the dead, vengeance, and destruction alongside darkness, ice, and death. > > >About 250 years ago, Dhuum's minions waged a war in the Underworld against Grenth and aided the servants of Abaddon in trying to bring about Nightfall. This culminated when Dhuum woke from his slumber, though the Reapers were able to place him back into dormancy with the aid of adventurers. However, given that Dhuum had repeatedly awakened, the true outcome of the war is still unknown, though many creatures from the Underworld, such as Aatxes and Shades, have been seen coming through portals. > [Wiki page Grenth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenth "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenth") > > Balthazar still being powerfull is not an indication that he is a God, Dhuum who was suplanted by Grenth still has an impact on Tyria. He aided Abaddon through his minions and was kept dormant by the seven reapers and adventures (gw1 players). And underworld creatures keep showing up on Tyria. Let's see what the Seven reapers are: " The Seven Reapers are Grenth's oldest servants who govern various regions of the Underworld. They were originally mortal heroes who fought with Grenth when he defeated Dhuum in Orr, and were elevated as the god's avatars as a reward." So, Grenth, a demigod, followed by 7 mortal heroes, attacked and defeated a full God :-) At least, in Abadon case, Kormir lead an entire army of mortals, had the device and the blessing from the Gods and moreover, Abadon was almost dead. In Dhuum case, Grenth **without the help of the gods**, having a team of 7 mortals at his side, **without any bless or weapon** from the gods, attacked a fully powered God and defeated it :-)) He has no power to kill the almost dead Dhuum but he was strong enough to defeat a full power Dhuum. **Alone** without any help from his mama? Or from the other gods? Are you joking? So, Grenth entered in the world of the Six with the help of his mother: **He took his place among the gods in the presence of his mother, in the spot where his father had fallen.** This is how "godly" Grenth was by himself :-)). He needed the influence of his mother to be admitted as one of the Six. Moreover, by the wording of this sentence, we can understand that Grenth father was a real stallion (and apparently the "adventure" of "producing" a son (Grenth) was a very pleasant one, and Dwayna wanted to keep the father close to her) , because Dwayna wanted the Dhuum place for him. But, for some unknown reasons he failed and Dwayna had to rely on Grenth to fulfill that spot. Does this sound as a conspiration? Dhuum's place was desired by Dwayna for her family. Dwayna, the leader of the Six. And you still believe Grenth defeated Dhuum alone? 1. Kormir said: "He is no longer **Part** of **The Six**" . Kormir never said Balthazar is not a God anymore. 2. On the other hand Balthazar states: " When this ends, I will be the only God" . - is obvious he considers himself still a god. 3. From 1 and 2 I understand that even if Balthazar is a god, the other gods **don't consider** him to be part of the Six anymore. And this supports my supposition that you need only to claim you are a god, and if the other gods accepts you, they will give you a title and you are one of the Six :-) And - in the Wiki page is not written that Grenth **claimed** the title from Dhuum. He only defeated it and replaced it. That means the title comes from other part. I supposed from his mama :-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenagin.3529 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Cristalyan.5728 said: > > @Kenagin.3529 said: > > > > > You're making a lot of assumptions not based on actual lore. > > > > She doesn't say, is not considered. She says: "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer **Part** of **The Six**." In response to Rytlock saying Balthazar is one of the Six. They are still called The Six but Balthazar is no longer one of The Six. When Abaddon was cast down, they no longer called themselves the Six but the **Five True Gods** > > > > >And so did Kormir and her allies engage the dark god in titanic battle. And through her power, and their combined skill and bravery, and the blessings of the Five True Gods, did Abaddon at last face his ultimate defeat. > > [Wiki page Kormir](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kormir "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kormir") > > > > Grenth is Dwayna's son. But iirc it's never mentioned that the other Gods helped Grenth. Grenth defeated Dhuum and took his place. (and claiming his title) Not Dwayna giving him the title. However Dhuum is still alive as far as we know. He is no longer a God but still powerfull. Stronger than a mere mortal. (he managed to break free from his prison) And that is also why Balthazar is still powerfull, he is no longer a true God, but still a very powerfull being. Capable of absorbing large quantities of magic. > > > > Your conclusion makes no sense when reading the bits of lore spreaded throughout Tyria. The wiki page of Grenth says the following: > > > > >Grenth is the god of darkness, ice, and death. Originally a half-god, Grenth was the child of Dwayna and a mortal sculptor and the first god born of Tyria, with domain over mortality and judgment and called the "Prince of Ice and Sorrow." To Orrians, Grenth was the god of death and judgment, and the patron of strict ethics. Grenth ascended to godhood with the aid of the Seven Reapers by supplanting the previous god of death, Dhuum, in Orr and sealing him behind the enchanted doors of the Hall of Judgement. Grenth then shattered Dhuum's tower in the Underworld, creating the Chaos Planes. He took his place among the gods in the presence of his mother, in the spot where his father had fallen. As a god, he is attributed to the judgment of the dead, vengeance, and destruction alongside darkness, ice, and death. > > > > >About 250 years ago, Dhuum's minions waged a war in the Underworld against Grenth and aided the servants of Abaddon in trying to bring about Nightfall. This culminated when Dhuum woke from his slumber, though the Reapers were able to place him back into dormancy with the aid of adventurers. However, given that Dhuum had repeatedly awakened, the true outcome of the war is still unknown, though many creatures from the Underworld, such as Aatxes and Shades, have been seen coming through portals. > > [Wiki page Grenth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenth "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenth") > > > > Balthazar still being powerfull is not an indication that he is a God, Dhuum who was suplanted by Grenth still has an impact on Tyria. He aided Abaddon through his minions and was kept dormant by the seven reapers and adventures (gw1 players). And underworld creatures keep showing up on Tyria. > > > Let's see what the Seven reapers are: > " The Seven Reapers are Grenth's oldest servants who govern various regions of the Underworld. They were originally mortal heroes who fought with Grenth when he defeated Dhuum in Orr, and were elevated as the god's avatars as a reward." > > So, Grenth, a demigod, followed by 7 mortal heroes, attacked and defeated a full God :-) At least, in Abadon case, Kormir lead an entire army of mortals, had the device and the blessing from the Gods and moreover, Abadon was almost dead. In Dhuum case, Grenth **without the help of the gods**, having a team of 7 mortals at his side, **without any bless or weapon** from the gods, attacked a fully powered God and defeated it :-)) He has no power to kill the almost dead Dhuum but he was strong enough to defeat a full power Dhuum. **Alone** without any help from his mama? Or from the other gods? Are you joking? No I'm dead serious. That is what we are told and is all we know. Your words are pure speculation. By the way we do not know how powerfull a demigod is. Abaddon was not almost dead, he was sealed away and weakened but was already regaining power by the time we fought him. > So, Grenth entered in the world of the Six with the help of his mother: **He took his place among the gods in the presence of his mother, in the spot where his father had fallen.** This is how "godly" Grenth was by himself :-)). He needed the influence of his mother to be admitted as one of the Six. He didn't need the influence, that is never stated. Only that she was there when it happened. > Moreover, by the wording of this sentence, we can understand that Grenth father was a real stallion (and apparently the "adventure" of "producing" a son (Grenth) was a very pleasant one, and Dwayna wanted to keep the father close to her) , because Dwayna wanted the Dhuum place for him. But, for some unknown reasons he failed and Dwayna had to rely on Grenth to fulfill that spot. > Does this sound as a conspiration? Dhuum's place was desired by Dwayna for her family. Dwayna, the leader of the Six. And you still believe Grenth defeated Dhuum alone? Grenths father was a mortal sculpture, the place where his father fell might also link it to Malchor the Sculptor. (Jumping off a cliff in Orr, but we have no confirmation he really is the father) No indication his father was supposed to usurp Dhuum. Iirc by the time Grenth usurped Dhuum the Gods were still in Orr/Arah > 1. Kormir said: "He is no longer **Part** of **The Six**" . Kormir never said Balthazar is not a God anymore. > 2. On the other hand Balthazar states: " When this ends, I will be the only God" . - is obvious he considers himself still a god. > 3. From 1 and 2 I understand that even if Balthazar is a god, the other gods **don't consider** him to be part of the Six anymore. And this supports my supposition that you need only to claim you are a god, and if the other gods accepts you, they will give you a title and you are one of the Six :-) > > And - in the Wiki page is not written that Grenth **claimed** the title from Dhuum. He only defeated it and replaced it. That means the title comes from other part. I supposed from his mama :-). >**Wiki Page Kormir** >Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed, and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties. This implies Kormir claimed the Title herself. Not granted by the Gods. You're speculation, and ignoring facts or turning them around so they fit you. It might turn out it went that way but we have no indication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Cristalyan.5728 said: > > @Kenagin.3529 said: > > > Rytlock Brimstone: "Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six." > > Kormir: "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six." > > > > Kormir clearly states Balthazar is no longer one of the Six. (that also means someone must have taken his place) So i think we can say with 100% certainty that no divine power went to Aurene or Kralkatorrik. Don't know if Balthazar had still acces to divine magic. But reigniting Sohothin indicates he had still access to some sort of power. > > In my humble opinion, Kormir states here that Balthazar **is not considered** to be part of the Six anymore by the other five. Not that he is not a God anymore. Because he was stripped by his **claim and title**. Is this enough to make a being a God? A title? So, is enough for a human to claim that he is god and the gods to give him the title of God (god of anything, only the title is important) to became a god? > > Hm. Thinking back, Grenth is the result of Dwayna fulfilling her nocturnal phantasms with a mortal. He got the title from his mama. Then he claimed he is a God. After that he attacked Dhuum - under the pretext Dhuum was **bad**. I bet Dwayna managed to gather the other gods to support Grenth. And voilà! Dhuum is not one of the six anymore :o > > How low the lore team will go with the quality of the story? Not only the main story is almost a delirum without logic, but even the dialogues started to change in something lacking any credibility ! > > Conclusion: From Kormir's statements, we found the answer to the long debated question: "What makes the gods to be gods". The answer is: guts to claim you are a god and then a title (it seems Dwayna is the easiest to be persuaded to give a title). It's pretty obvious that Balthazar was stripped of more than just claim and title but his power as well (that is, in fact, the entire plot behind Season 3 - Balthazar was weakened to near mortal levels and had to regain power via the bloodstone and Primordus/Jormag/Taimi's machine). I think Kormir is implying by "claim and title" to be the divine power that allows a god to blind people when said people look at said god (which never happens around Balthazar, but does around Kormir). Grenth didn't get a "title" from Dwayna, nor did he just claim to be a god. He took out Dhuum, [absorbed his power](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Memory_of_Dhuum%27s_Last_Stand), and then [had to argue for his right to be in the pantheon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six). TL;DR You're taking what Kormir said far too literally, and forgetting other facts we were recently exposed to. All for the apparent sake of bashing Anet writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 Can > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > Balthazar was stripped of his power, so what Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate was, with 100% certainty, the magic from the Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus. It is hinted that Balthazar had some divinity left in him (being able to reignite Sohothin and all) but it wasn't enough to break his prison (unlike Abaddon, who was never stripped of his power, only had it locked away, and was able to break free after getting at least about 3/8th of his power back). > > > > > > > > Can you be certain? EDs convert ley into corruption. Why wouldn't Gods convert ley into divine magic? > > > > > > Kormir outright tells us that Balthazar was stripped of his power (as quoted by Kenagin) - hence his entire campaign to gain more power in Season 3. The fact that, even after being powered up, Balthazar didn't blind us when we looked at him is proof that they cannot convert ley into divine. > > > > But Kormir didn't blind us either? And she arguably has more power than Balthazar. > > When you speak to Kormir you get a unique Blind debuff, which darkens the vision of the screen over the course of the dialogue and goes away when she leaves. I think you need post processing on to see it though. > > Balthazar never once causes this. You are correct. But then again Kormir was at full power and Balthazar was not. This deserves another discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Cristalyan.5728 said: > Let's see what the Seven reapers are: > " The Seven Reapers are Grenth's oldest servants who govern various regions of the Underworld. They were originally mortal heroes who fought with Grenth when he defeated Dhuum in Orr, and were elevated as the god's avatars as a reward." > > So, Grenth, a demigod, followed by 7 mortal heroes, attacked and defeated a full God :-) At least, in Abadon case, Kormir lead an entire army of mortals, had the device and the blessing from the Gods and moreover, Abadon was almost dead. In Dhuum case, Grenth **without the help of the gods**, having a team of 7 mortals at his side, **without any bless or weapon** from the gods, attacked a fully powered God and defeated it :-)) He has no power to kill the almost dead Dhuum but he was strong enough to defeat a full power Dhuum. **Alone** without any help from his mama? Or from the other gods? Are you joking? > So, Grenth entered in the world of the Six with the help of his mother: **He took his place among the gods in the presence of his mother, in the spot where his father had fallen.** This is how "godly" Grenth was by himself :-)). He needed the influence of his mother to be admitted as one of the Six. Kormir had the backing of an army? Sure, but not against Abaddon himself. That was just a party of eight + Kormir (I suppose one may argue all henchmen/heroes were part of that final battle though). Still no demigod among them. Abaddon was almost dead? Nope. His power was locked, but he was not almost dead. We don't know the circumstances around Grenth fighting Dhuum. We just know that he did, had the aid of at least seven powerful mortals (I like to imagine they were all on par if not greater to GW1 henchmen/heroes or Destiny's Edge/Dragon's Watch), and that he not only succeeded in defeating Dhuum but took Dhuum's divine power. There is **nothing** to say that Grenth "didn't have the help of the gods", just as there is nothing to say he did. Nothing says he defeated Dhuum alone (in fact, we know he wasn't alone, given the fact he had the Seven Reapers). And even then, Balthazar is basically a demigod during GW2 - so that's comparable to how strong Grenth was when facing Dhuum. Far stronger than anyone facing Abaddon. > @Cristalyan.5728 said: > Moreover, by the wording of this sentence, we can understand that Grenth father was a real stallion (and apparently the "adventure" of "producing" a son (Grenth) was a very pleasant one, and Dwayna wanted to keep the father close to her) , because Dwayna wanted the Dhuum place for him. But, for some unknown reasons he failed and Dwayna had to rely on Grenth to fulfill that spot. > Does this sound as a conspiration? Dhuum's place was desired by Dwayna for her family. Dwayna, the leader of the Six. And you still believe Grenth defeated Dhuum alone? I don't get how you make up with Grenth's father failing to kill Dhuum. The line from Orrian History Scrolls is pretty clearly referring to the fact that where Dhuum was defeated by Grenth was *Malchor's Leap* (which is indeed where Dhuum's Last Stand PoI is!). Near where Malchor died, Grenth defeated Dhuum. Yeah, it's never outright stated Malchor is Grenth's father, but it's pretty damn obvious at this point. Aside from the fact Grenth's father is called a "mortal sculptor", Malchor loved Dwayna, and Dwayna wept when she had to leave Malchor, there is the fact that the DR statue of Grenth originally quoted Malchor but this got changed to quoting Desmina, indicating that unlike the other four old gods (e.g., excluding Kormir), Grenth was not sculpted by Malchor (so Malchor had made a statue of Dhuum instead). > @Cristalyan.5728 said: > 1. Kormir said: "He is no longer **Part** of **The Six**" . Kormir never said Balthazar is not a God anymore. > 2. On the other hand Balthazar states: " When this ends, I will be the only God" . - is obvious he considers himself still a god. > 3. From 1 and 2 I understand that even if Balthazar is a god, the other gods **don't consider** him to be part of the Six anymore. And this supports my supposition that you need only to claim you are a god, and if the other gods accepts you, they will give you a title and you are one of the Six :-) 1. If Balthazar was not one of The Six Gods, then they would not be "the Six Gods" unless there was a replacement for Balthazar. Season 3 **very clearly** shows and it's even brought up multiple times, even in PoF it's brought up, that Balthazar was stripped of his power. It's shown through mechanics as well as words. 2. He considers himself to be, yes, but that doesn't make him one. Gaheron and Joko both consider themselves to be a god. Are they gods too? The mursaat consider themselves gods. Are they gods too? 3. You do realize there are more gods than the Six Gods, right? The Six Gods is just one pantheon. But on top of that, *they wouldn't be The Six without six of them being in the pantheon.* So where did this replacement of Balthazar come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Can > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > You are correct. But then again Kormir was at full power and Balthazar was not. This deserves another discussion. Right. Because Balthazar was stripped of his godhood, he was no longer a god but closer to a demigod. Kormir, however, was still a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayMack.8295 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 If it were related to power levels, I'd imagine looking upon Elder Dragons would also blind us or any other almost equal powerful being, though do we even have measures of how powerful each individual God is compared to an ED? EDIT: Of course that depends on which ED we're now referring to since one has grown in power substantially... Also speaking of Gods that do not blind - was it explained why Abaddon didn't? My guess would be because we didn't really fight his true form, more of a twisted version of him but he still contained the power he once had, did he not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Can > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > You are correct. But then again Kormir was at full power and Balthazar was not. This deserves another discussion. > > Right. Because Balthazar was stripped of his godhood, he was no longer a god but closer to a demigod. Kormir, however, was still a god. So divinity starts in physiology and the level changes based on how much power the vessel holds? Demigods are tall, but they don't blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @"Emissary Vex.5690" said: > I was hoping that they would come up with a better story, something that also explains the exodus of the gods from Orr long ago. Like maybe there are other Gods living in the Mists that did not come to Tyria; and there is a war going on in the Mists between the Gods; and if the six don't focus on that war then everyone's souls might be taken by evil gods. But no the whole story was stupid. They could have at least trapped Balthazar in the mists again. Stupid lore is stupid. :O that would be a really cool storyline to follow! I've always wanted to see what a war between gods would look like in a video game, and having it take place in the mists is the perfect place to do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @JayMack.8295 said: > If it were related to power levels, I'd imagine looking upon Elder Dragons would also blind us or any other almost equal powerful being, [...] > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > So divinity starts in physiology and the level changes based on how much power the vessel holds? > > Demigods are tall, but they don't blind. Based on what we've seen thus far, what causes blindness is the divinity itself, which is more than just "power level" but the combination of type and amount of magic. Balthazar, though no longer a god, was clearly more than mortal. When he died, he - like Abaddon - began "breaking up". Furthermore, Balthazar was described as being an entity of pure magic by Taimi's scanner in Heart of the Volcano. He was also able to do something normal mortals couldn't (absorb rampant magic). This is why I label him as a demigod. He has some but not all qualities of a god. > @JayMack.8295 said: > [...] though do we even have measures of how powerful each individual God is compared to an ED? EDIT: Of course that depends on which ED we're now referring to since one has grown in power substantially... > > Also speaking of Gods that do not blind - was it explained why Abaddon didn't? My guess would be because we didn't really fight his true form, more of a twisted version of him but he still contained the power he once had, did he not? Best we know, the Elder Dragons and gods are on par, but Kormir says the Elder Dragons are "beyond" the gods in being primal beings. That would imply that the Elder Dragons are capable of surpassing the gods, but not that they currently do. As for Abaddon, it was not explained. But the lore of gods blinding mortals came after. The retrospective explanation was that we simply didn't look at Abaddon long enough, iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Walhalla.5473 said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > It's unclear if Kralkatorrik or Aurene ate the remnant divine magic from Balthazar. It's also unclear why the gods didn't just kill Balthazar - aside from "well then the plot of PoF wouldn't have happened". It's also entirely possible that *if* Kralkatorrik and/or Aurene ate what was left of Balthazar's divinity (if any was left after igniting Sohothin), that it was only capable of being consumed because it was free and rampant, rather than in a vessel of some sort. > > I guess this was intended as a fate worse than death punishment. Balthazar who was the god of war and liked his power, was stripped of his power and left to rot somewhere in the mists for eternity unable to do anything or to be powerful. It would have worked, and he would perhaps wished for his own death, but well Rytlock and his sword shenanigans happened. > > Well its the only reason I can see for the Gods to left Balthazar to rot. Well, the other possibility is that they didn't want to do something as final as killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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