Disable transfer 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after relink servers. Thanks.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> You guys want to get mad at someone get mad at all the guilds who cooperated to stack Kaineng, SBI and FA (mostly just Kaineng) and drained almost all the talent from basically every other server in the process. VR is literally like 30-35 active guys.

 

Why can't we be mad at both?

[SkyShroud.2865]

hunkamania.7561 mistake here is his thoughtless attempt in countering the argument because if one want to make a counter argument, that argument must has no flaw and in this case, he used his guild as an counter argument but in the end, it fail as an counter argument because the fact is, his guild did transfer to a server that already has 2 other guilds in that timezone residing while there are servers that don't. Well, the latter info was actually provided by his guild driver. Regardless, that invalid his claims.

 

The driver try hard to re-clarify the claims but it still fails. Afterall, as mentioned by others, mag was pre-calculated as medium server and placed in such link in pre-calculated manner. Therefore, any movements to another servers that pushed the population up from its pre-calculated position can be considered as stacking. Furthermore, his guild isn't the only guild that transfer to that link, so you can't even counter argue it isn't stacking.

 

Word of advice, don't ever use guild as an counter argument because most wvw guilds out there are guilty of stacking and bandwagoning.

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> We are. It's your guys that came on this thread defensive. I didn't even consider vr but when you guys tried to explain why it didn't sound so great. Guilds move for many diff reasons but kitten those reasons just seem to be every effin 2 months.

 

It seems to me Hunk was initially trying to argue one of the basic principles of the discussion of this thread in relation to the decisions VR has made as a guild over the past few months. Namely that guilds, particularly the organized veteran ones like VR, have some sort of moral responsibility to try to maintain balance between servers and so they shouldn't transfer if it might imbalance a matchup even if they happen to be getting paid quite a lot to do so. I fundamentally disagree with this and I think it's more than a bit naive.

 

Be mad at VR, be mad at every guild who's ever transferred around and stacked servers. Understand that it's just the way it is and it's the way it's always going to be. No amount of restrictions save banning server transfers entirely and manual server reorganization on the part of Anet is going to stop it from continuing to happen. No guild wants to do what we're having to do right now just to stay in t2. It's a lot of work for almost nothing let me tell you.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Be mad at VR, be mad at every guild who's ever transferred around and stacked servers. Understand that it's just the way it is and it's the way it's always going to be. No amount of restrictions save banning server transfers entirely and manual server reorganization on the part of Anet is going to stop it from continuing to happen. No guild wants to do what we're having to do now just to stay in t2. It's a lot of work for almost nothing let me tell you.

 

Stopping and minimizing are two very different things.

Did the world have police because we believe having them will stop crime from happening? Of course not. We have them because we believe it can minimize crime. The OP never suggest anything remotely close to "stopping", it is all about minimizing the damage caused from these selfish actions.

[Israel.7056]

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> Did the world have police because we believe having them will stop crime from happening? Of course not. We have them because we believe it can minimize crime. The OP never suggest anything remotely close to "stopping", it is all about minimizing the damage caused from these selfish actions.

 

First of all I don't think there's anything wrong with these "selfish actions."

 

Even if I did this proposal is a half measure and I think you and I both know that.

[Rampage.7145]

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> hunkamania.7561 mistake here is his thoughtless attempt in countering the argument because if one want to make a counter argument, that argument must has no flaw and in this case, he used his guild as an counter argument but in the end, it fail as an counter argument because the fact is, his guild did transfer to a server that already has 2 other guilds in that timezone residing while there are servers that don't. Well, the latter info was actually provided by his guild driver. Regardless, that invalid his claims.

>

> The driver try hard to re-clarify the claims but it still fails. Afterall, as mentioned by others, mag was pre-calculated as medium server and placed in such link in pre-calculated manner. Therefore, any movements to another servers that pushed the population up from its pre-calculated position can be considered as stacking. Furthermore, his guild isn't the only guild that transfer to that link, so you can't even counter argue it isn't stacking.

>

> Word of advice, don't ever use guild as an counter argument because most wvw guilds out there are guilty of stacking and bandwagoning.

>

>

 

Out all T1 and T2 servers SoR was the only viable choice after BG since it had the less guild and ques during our raid schedule. EVEN having 2 guilds on our timezone, what guilds want are fights during their timeslot and fight as many guilds as possible. Not every guild is like TIME who will happy fight doors siege and random groups of 15 defenders during guild raids my dude.

If we actually wanted to bandwagon and win (given that we actually care about winning matchups or be on the number 1 server, which we do not), we could just go to FA with our Mag brothers from KEK, but lets be real who would wanna fight or even remotly stand a chance vs a VR+KEK blob nowdays common dude.

[Rampage.7145]

Bandwagoning or guilds trying to concentrate in some servers instead of other is just a player effort to do what arenanet have failed to do over the years of creating a competitive game mode where if u want to fight the most skilled players you have to be on certain servers based on coverage, since this changes with every relink guilds have no choice but moving around with every relink, the only real bandwagoners are the random pugs who just move to the servers where those guilds are to leech kills of them and whatnot.

Truth is the current ammount of tiers and servers are way too many for the remaining hardcore WvW guilds left, so this guilds will move arround and concentrate within few servers in an very expensive effort (it costs hundreds of dollars and thousands of gold to move a big guild) to fix the problem arenanet created with their scoring and matchmaking system nothing more, you can cry about it all you want but it is just how it is and it will continue to be till arenanet decide to reward skill and fight capability over having more or less SEA and OCX coverage. Guilds wanna fight each other and this has always been the case.

[ThunderPanda.1872]

Just raise all server's transfer fee back to a flat 1800 or more. Don't need to hard restrict any one that could cause more problems than solving it. Just need to make it expensive enough to make people and large guilds think twice before moving.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Rampage.7145" said:

> > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > hunkamania.7561 mistake here is his thoughtless attempt in countering the argument because if one want to make a counter argument, that argument must has no flaw and in this case, he used his guild as an counter argument but in the end, it fail as an counter argument because the fact is, his guild did transfer to a server that already has 2 other guilds in that timezone residing while there are servers that don't. Well, the latter info was actually provided by his guild driver. Regardless, that invalid his claims.

> >

> > The driver try hard to re-clarify the claims but it still fails. Afterall, as mentioned by others, mag was pre-calculated as medium server and placed in such link in pre-calculated manner. Therefore, any movements to another servers that pushed the population up from its pre-calculated position can be considered as stacking. Furthermore, his guild isn't the only guild that transfer to that link, so you can't even counter argue it isn't stacking.

> >

> > Word of advice, don't ever use guild as an counter argument because most wvw guilds out there are guilty of stacking and bandwagoning.

> >

> >

>

> Out all T1 and T2 servers SoR was the only viable choice after BG since it had the less guild and ques during our raid schedule. EVEN having 2 guilds on our timezone, what guilds want are fights during their timeslot and fight as many guilds as possible. Not every guild is like TIME who will happy fight doors siege and random groups of 15 defenders during guild raids my dude.

> If we actually wanted to bandwagon and win (given that we actually care about winning matchups or be on the number 1 server, which we do not), we could just go to FA with our Mag brothers from KEK, but lets be real who would wanna fight or even remotly stand a chance vs a VR+KEK blob nowdays common dude.

 

We are fighting doors, yea, sure we are because every time we roll into T2 is a lie. :)

If that is how you want to convince yourself and in return try to use that to convince the world, no wonder you are not getting a lot of good responses.

People are not dumb but it seems like you want to treat them as so.

 

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > Did the world have police because we believe having them will stop crime from happening? Of course not. We have them because we believe it can minimize crime. The OP never suggest anything remotely close to "stopping", it is all about minimizing the damage caused from these selfish actions.

>

> First of all I don't think there's anything wrong with these "selfish actions."

>

> Even if I did this proposal is a half measure and I think you and I both know that.

 

Selfish actions can be not wrong, can be not right, depends on perspectives.

A half measure is better than no measure.

So no, I am not on the same frequency as you.

[Rampage.7145]

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> We are fighting doors, yea, sure we are because every time we roll into T2 is a lie. :)

> If that is how you want to convince yourself and in return try to use that to convince the world, no wonder you are not getting a lot of good responses.

> People are not dumb but it seems like you want to treat them as so.

>

 

Just speaking the truth about the reality of the game mode on it's current state my dude, Arenanet does not play or understand the game mode or it's community (just like you), so maybe if i tell them how it is and why things happen they will actually see reality as it is (unlike you) and do something about it. Maybe they will finally realize what is wrong with the game after all these years, who knows.

[neven.3785]

Thank you OP for this thoroughly entertaining post. In relations to VR transfer killing mag or VR carrying mag, who cares. The server has died before, and like before when it has died, it wasn't one guild, it was player attrition combined with stale gameplay. It takes 2 or 3 guilds being fed up and moving elsewhere to cause the sudden drop in ranks, thats it. That problem is on anet, since they have failed to keep the gamemode populated enough in NA. People move to shake things up and if they are willing to do that, i fully support that, because it keeps players in the game. Forcing players to stay put will kill a portion of the remaining player base and the game cannot support that. Whether the players PPT, Small man roam, Fight blobs, or Plow over unorganized pugs, i dont care, i just want players in this gamemode. I would agree that relinks should have a transfer free period, but a whole month is ridiculous. At most, the day before relinks for a week. It gives guilds a chance who like to ensure they face eachother a period to coordinate their xfers.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"neven.3785" said:

> Thank you OP for this thoroughly entertaining post. In relations to VR transfer killing mag or VR carrying mag, who cares. The server has died before, and like before when it has died, it wasn't one guild, it was player attrition combined with stale gameplay. It takes 2 or 3 guilds being fed up and moving elsewhere to cause the sudden drop in ranks, thats it. That problem is on anet, since they have failed to keep the gamemode populated enough in NA. People move to shake things up and if they are willing to do that, i fully support that, because it keeps players in the game. Forcing players to stay put will kill a portion of the remaining player base and the game cannot support that. Whether the players PPT, Small man roam, Fight blobs, or Plow over unorganized pugs, i dont care, i just want players in this gamemode. I would agree that relinks should have a transfer free period, but a whole month is ridiculous. At most, the day before relinks for a week. It gives guilds a chance who like to ensure they face eachother a period to coordinate their xfers.

 

Uh huh. There are always more than one perspective. Did you stop and look at the perspective of people who didn't move? What will happen to them? Be blobbed? Will they still stay? Will they quit game? So when these people are gone, whose fault is it? Anet or the guilds that move around? Do you think anet is ok with people moving around? Why would they set a tier based transfer cost with a pop cap if they think is ok for people to stack around?

 

The world doesn't revolve around just one group of people.

 

"transfer free period"....do you meant grace period?

"At most, the day before relinks for a week."....do you meant the matchup week before?

Is it correct if I interpret it as "the matchup week before the relink should be the only transfer period thus all other weeks should be locked"?

[neven.3785]

No i am saying from the day before relinks, no xfers, then after a week has passed, open up again. As for the players left behind, i am in CTH, we were one of the few guilds left behind. Mag itself has never had a strong population of people obsessed with the score sheet, all that matters is that there is stuff to do when you log in to play, and that happens regardless of what tags are on and what objectives are t3.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"neven.3785" said:

> No i am saying from the day before relinks, no xfers, then after a week has passed, open up again. As for the players left behind, i am in CTH, we were one of the few guilds left behind. Mag itself has never had a strong population of people obsessed with the score sheet, all that matters is that there is stuff to do when you log in to play, and that happens regardless of what tags are on and what objectives are t3.

 

Lol. And how does that make a difference?

If they can't transfer a day before relink, then they can just transfer days before it.

if they can't transfer a week after relink, then they can just transfer more than week after it.

How will such changes make any impact? This isn't sim city where you can just add any policy and people will plus happiness.

Lastly, you speak for yourself, you don't speak for the world.

[neven.3785]

Which opinion speaks for the world? A month stuck in a current matchup between with no escape makes people quit. A lot more will quit because of that vs those left behind on a dead server. The days of server loyalty are from years past, such a small community on each server still has a strong enough attachment to their server name. My opinion doesn't make it true, the ebb and flow of server ranking does.

 

I say a week because they would suck up and possibly have enough members second guess and stay behind. Not many guilds have exclusive memberships nowadays, so everyove loses someone.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"neven.3785" said:

> Which opinion speaks for the world? A month stuck in a current matchup between with no escape makes people quit. A lot more will quit because of that vs those left behind on a dead server. The days of server loyalty are from years past, such a small community on each server still has a strong enough attachment to their server name. My opinion doesn't make it true, the ebb and flow of server ranking does.

>

> I say a week because they would suck up and possibly have enough members second guess and stay behind. Not many guilds have exclusive memberships nowadays, so everyove loses someone.

 

You don't seem to get it. You are using your personal experience as measurement to gauge how things work, not because you got actual statistic data. Then, you used that bias experience to make a counter argument. Now, you again used that bias experience to make claims that more people quit because of blah blah blah. I too can make reverse claims, such claims are just so stupid.

 

You need to understand this very clearly. People do quit for various reasons and not a single person in the forums, not a single guild leader, not a single driver, nobody has concrete evidence of more people quit because of this or that. If we do have such data, gw2 will be extremely successful game, reality is no one has it. Yes, not even the devs.

 

What people do concern of, greatly, are actions that **actively** pushes people to quit. Such is why such a thread exist. Bandwagoning and stacking are actions which **actively** pushes people to quit. In other words, accelerating people to quit.

 

Why would guild split up their transfer? Doesn't make sense, no guild does that. Your restriction is just something so easy to workaround, is no brainer. It doesn't reduce the transfer frequency, it doesn't reduce the disturbance in population balance, it is just useless. All it did is just changing the timing of the disturbance.

 

Lastly, sure guilds are not exclusive and maybe some people will leave but it doesn't means is a bad thing (in guild perspective). When guilds bandwagon, they are also shaking off their weak links and in return, they get more committed players in their new server. Honestly speaking, I don't really think there are many guilds with rosters made up of people mostly outside of the residing server (and transfer in to join them). Guilds with such capability are rare and if they are capable of doing that, they wouldn't be stacking anyway.

 

PS: Please use the quote.

[Decado.9304]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> Move to a tiered gems transfer system. Regardless of the population of the (open) server you move to:

>

> 6 month rolling average:

> First in 6 months = 1800 gems

> Second in 6 months = 3600 gems

> Third in 6 months = 5400 gems

>

> With a successive increase of 1800 gems for each additional transfer within the rolling 6 month period.

>

> Allows guilds to transfer but they pay for it. Anet gets gems, and guilds can move.

>

> Monitize the system.

 

Should be something like this. Double the cost each server change and reset it once per year back to the start, though a halt on transfers a week or 2 before and after a reset might be a decent starting point

[neven.3785]

I do get what you are saying. I am allowed to use personal experience to justify my arguments, just as i am allowed to have a differing opinion than yours. I also have spent time on several servers despite playing 90% of my time on mag (i apologize for not having a statistically accurate number). I've been through many implosions on different servers, and have tried to rally through them in the past, in the end sometimes the only solution for a group is to move on. They only should ever think of their groups morale rather than the servers. I've seen too many guilds die slow deaths because of stale match-ups, or even guild politics. Use IoJ post seasons era as an example. Once again, no numbers, but that doesnt matter. I still say you are wrong for the same reason you say i am wrong, personal experience. perspectives. I also never said a guild should split, i said the week so their members have a chance to gauge their personal opinion on the matter vs their driver making a selfish quick decision (which i've seen done). I also play NA prime, you lead an off hours guild, two totally different view points of WvW.

 

Unfortunately your solution doesn't fix anything, nor does the compromise i suggested. The problem is the system is broken and wont be band aided for a year at least. The quick fix (use fix loosely) was denied by the community long ago when anet asked about it, cut up the servers into smaller shards with smaller player caps, then they had more pieces to stick together while they worked on the new system. In the end the community chose to keep this game dying in its current state vs having to pick between their various social circles in game.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Why do guilds move in the first place? I keep hearing things like "coordinating efforts to fight other guilds". Really? Is that so? Then why don't you take your guild (and another guild) and transfer down to a host server in T4, then get whatever other guilds you want to fight, and get them move down to the other host server in T4 and call it a day. Then you guys can fight each other till the cows come home. But we don't see that do we... why? Many people are claiming one thing, but the reasons for moving are completely different.

 

If a guild is as good as they think they are, transfer your keesters down to T4 and fight your way back up and prove you're as good as you think you are. Recruit players down there, train them, get big, and storm back up the Tiers. Again, we don't see that do we.. why? Instead we see all these guilds who think they are good, or even more disturbingly, think they are "fight" guilds, conglomerate themselves on 3 servers, either on the host or their link. Then spend more time running from fights than actually engaging unless their numbers are far superior. This is the very reason why you don't see "said" guilds moving down to T4 to fight each other (or other guilds), because their numbers aren't there, and thus they cannot win. I mean how demoralizing is it to have your "fight" guild of say 25-35, move down to T4, then get repeatedly beat by a similar sized pug group, simply because your fight guild didn't have the additional 30-40 pugs following you, or another guild hugging close by?

 

Lets be real here, the game mode is bleeding players because it's stale, and stale can be defined in many different ways. One being, players get sick of being blobbed down, and another reason, players get sick of blobbing. Groups and commanders also get sick of these alleged "fight" guilds cowering in SMC or their keep under siege when they can't win when the numbers are even. Take SMC from them and watch them log off right away. This type of behavior is quite tiresome and also causes people to restrict their playtime.

 

Will the OP's suggestion work to curb this problem? Not really as it's a player behavior problem, and the only way that is fixed is if Anet directly intervenes. They do that by lowering player caps which then makes it completely pointless to stack a server.

[Caliburn.1845]

I'm curious, which "fight" guilds get beat repeatedly by T4 pug groups? Which "fight" guilds get beat regularly in any tier by an equal number of pugs? Genuinely curious about that perspective.

 

The truth of why many guilds do not want to end up in T4 NA is simple. Take the current kill count this week as an example. Tier1: 64k kills. Tier2: 100k kills. Tier3: 91k kills. Tier4: 49k kills. Why would anyone want to end up where there is almost half the activity of other tiers?

[Caliburn.1845]

I'm aware of SoR's activity levels yes. I'm also aware that in the prior set of linkings JQ occupied that same place. That is sort of the point. T4 starts out with good activity for the first week of relinks. Then people move, and some server becomes the NA loser for 2 months, and T4 gets boring.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Rampage.7145" said:

> > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > > @"neven.3785" said:

> > > Which opinion speaks for the world? A month stuck in a current matchup between with no escape makes people quit. A lot more will quit because of that vs those left behind on a dead server. The days of server loyalty are from years past, such a small community on each server still has a strong enough attachment to their server name. My opinion doesn't make it true, the ebb and flow of server ranking does.

> > >

> > > I say a week because they would suck up and possibly have enough members second guess and stay behind. Not many guilds have exclusive memberships nowadays, so everyove loses someone.

> >

> > You don't seem to get it. You are using your personal experience as measurement to gauge how things work, not because you got actual statistic data. Then, you used that bias experience to make a counter argument.

>

> LMAO this whole post is this guy talking out his kitten and his experience (or lack of) and he is calling somoene for doing the same. And they say asians are smart eh, he thinks punishing guilds for moving is the way to go instead of fixing the reasson why guilds move in first place, very smart, very smart, very asian of you my friend.

>

>

 

Quoting out of context is a fallacy. Furthermore, you bringing in the race card. Really?

I have made it really clear in the context, people do quit for various reasons but no one has any idea what makes more people quit and that "more" is what he is using as an argument. If you can't partake an argument in a non-personal and non-racist manner, then don't be in one.

 

Btw, for what you wrote, I can report you.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"neven.3785" said:

> I do get what you are saying. I am allowed to use personal experience to justify my arguments, just as i am allowed to have a differing opinion than yours. I also have spent time on several servers despite playing 90% of my time on mag (i apologize for not having a statistically accurate number). I've been through many implosions on different servers, and have tried to rally through them in the past, in the end sometimes the only solution for a group is to move on. They only should ever think of their groups morale rather than the servers. I've seen too many guilds die slow deaths because of stale match-ups, or even guild politics. Use IoJ post seasons era as an example. Once again, no numbers, but that doesnt matter. I still say you are wrong for the same reason you say i am wrong, personal experience. perspectives. I also never said a guild should split, i said the week so their members have a chance to gauge their personal opinion on the matter vs their driver making a selfish quick decision (which i've seen done). I also play NA prime, you lead an off hours guild, two totally different view points of WvW.

>

> Unfortunately your solution doesn't fix anything, nor does the compromise i suggested. The problem is the system is broken and wont be band aided for a year at least. The quick fix (use fix loosely) was denied by the community long ago when anet asked about it, cut up the servers into smaller shards with smaller player caps, then they had more pieces to stick together while they worked on the new system. In the end the community chose to keep this game dying in its current state vs having to pick between their various social circles in game.

 

You still don't get it. The issue here is you believe certain things make people quit "more" than others. Thus, using that as a basis for certain solutions. However, no one here has statistic data of what makes people quit "more". By using "more" an argument without statistic evidence is just poor argument.

 

Likewise, your proposal as mention is indeed base on your personal experience, one base on making a hasten decision and believe many others will do the same. However, do you really think a lot of people make thoughtless decision when moving server? KN definitely wasn't made in that manner.

 

My solution? My proposed solution which you can see in the first page, post made by me. It deter people from transferring frequently. I do acknowledge the reasons for transferring but those reasons should not be used an excuses to accelerate others to quit. Thus, it is a total compromise. If one want to transfer that frequently, then, they can do it at an increased cost. I believe that increased cost will totally make people think more carefully before moving while not removing their personal rights to move.

 

Let's go back to the basic. Do you understand what I am talking about?

[Substance E.4852]

> @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> I understand your intention with this, but we have at least a handful of guildies that cannot transfer because our server is full, so they transfer to our link server when we re-link. You would also be punishing the people that are just trying to continue to WVW with friends.

 

The fact that your supposedly full server still somehow still has a link is proof enough that the system is hot garbage and belongs in a bin labeled as such.

[neven.3785]

once again, the very dense stance that disagreement = not understanding. Yes people quit from others moving, but those players are called fairweathers and they are always fickle, You see a lot of them on TC. What difference does them quitting the game make when they quit the moment their team starts to lose or they face any opponent who will actually open a wall to get them, or there is no commander to lead a ktrain. I am saying I, yes me, value the players who are more likely to xfer to keep playin than those fairweathers, in the end it comes down to play hours during the NA primetime. I do not disagree that xfer frequency is too high for some groups, but those people will only be detered by xfer costs penalizing their excessive choice, not by a time delay.