Stand The Wall.6987 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 i think a bigger problem is the lack of great working builds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zin Dau.1749 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 no one knows what or how real balance looks like. if they did, the game would already be balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamy Lu.3865 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 For me, this thread is just one more case of: "I don't like it, make it different so it does suit me better", leading to usual discussion between those who agree and those who don't. At the top of it, "balancing" is - and will probably always remain - a never ending subject.  There are many different types of players in the game. I suppose that Anet decide on changes based on the feedback having a vast majority of supporters/requesters. Based on what I read in this forum and what I hear in the game, clearly, re-balancing of skills is - since quite a long while already - the hottest topic of all. Due to that, it seems to me a logic consequence to have regular skills overhaul. I witness every times how most players around me are waiting impatiently for those changes and jump on the description in the second it arrives, to immediately start - with an enormous pleasure - to rethink their builds and rework them for each objective they have (raid, wvw, pvp, team performances, own performances...). It seems to confirm that, at least for now, skills changes are for Anet the right thing to focus on, satisfying a vast majority. It's a phase. There have been other hot topics in the past, and there will be others in the future. To finish, my very personal opinion: I am a slow learner. I need a very long time until I master a build. So for me, those skill re-adjustments are of course a struggle. I would prefer that it does not happen. But it does not spoil my fun in the game. My friends help me to learn it faster by carrying me at each new change for my classes and that's it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchemist.6851 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Einsof.1457" said: > Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks.  Nicely said. It’s a perfect game except the dev constantly shifting balancing from left to right and so on.. why can’t they make every class powerful and let every new play enjoy raids and keep pushing new playable content ? i don’t get it If i had 9 character slot with 9 different professions with each very powerful build, i would just keep buying new expansion and cosmetics.. even come up with alt builds... now is just total anti climax and don’t feel like spending a cent (i spent around 1k on this game) and lost moment to to play and upgrade my characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.  So the game now is balanced? For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Anet has a problem with starting things and giving up mid way you can say that true for classes as well. So your views are spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > So the game now is balanced? > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).  The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"alchemist.6851" said: > > @"Einsof.1457" said: > > Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks. > > > Nicely said. It’s a perfect game except the dev constantly shifting balancing from left to right and so on.. why can’t they make every class powerful and let every new play enjoy raids and keep pushing new playable content ? i don’t get it > > If i had 9 character slot with 9 different professions with each very powerful build, i would just keep buying new expansion and cosmetics.. even come up with alt builds... now is just total anti climax and don’t feel like spending a cent (i spent around 1k on this game) and lost moment to to play and upgrade my characters >  > @"alchemist.6851" said: > > @"Einsof.1457" said: > > Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks. > > > Nicely said. It’s a perfect game except the dev constantly shifting balancing from left to right and so on.. why can’t they make every class powerful and let every new play enjoy raids and keep pushing new playable content ? i don’t get it > > If i had 9 character slot with 9 different professions with each very powerful build, i would just keep buying new expansion and cosmetics.. even come up with alt builds... now is just total anti climax and don’t feel like spending a cent (i spent around 1k on this game) and lost moment to to play and upgrade my characters >  This is missing the issue tho. Their will always be a weakest class. So even if they made every class twice as strong people would still have the same issue with the weaker builds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauried.5608 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Only way to achieve balance is to give all classes the same skills, otherwise its at best a compromise. Try this . Suggest what should be done to all the classes you dont play , so that they are all balanced with respect to the classes that you do play, and then ask players who do play those classes whether they think balance has been achieved. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.  and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauried.5608 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Balance will never be achieved as its impossible with such a wide range of differant skills for each class. The entire concept is at best a poor compromise, and all Anet can do is keep juggling each classes skills to try and keep everyone happy . The simplest answer is to make all classes much more powerful whilst doing nothing else, and then players would start complaining that all the content was too easy and Anet should make it all harder.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.  When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > Â Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless. It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.  Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.  For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless. > > It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch. > > Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed. > > For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?  Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst. There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.  Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also? Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough). I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed. The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change. For what? A not done patch and balance change. That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless. > > > > It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch. > > > > Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed. > > > > For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead? > > Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst. > > There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3. > > Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes. > >  Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have Renegade Holosmith Druid Mirage Warrior (all three variants) Thief both deadeye and daredevil Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.  Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless. > > > > > > It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch. > > > > > > Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed. > > > > > > For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead? > > > > Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst. > > > > There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3. > > > > Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes. > > > > > > Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have > > Renegade > Holosmith > Druid > Mirage > Warrior (all three variants) > Thief both deadeye and daredevil > > Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess. > > Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those - Renegade was meta before the patch. - Holo was meta before the patch - Druid is to early to call if it will remain meta, especially if chrono loses its spot. This is you guessing. - Mirage was meta before the change and remains meta for specific bosses, where alternatives exist (except Largos twins were it reigns supreme). Taking a huge hit in spvp/wvw viability (to the state of useless ness basically). - Warrior has always been meta - Thief was meta That's just from a pve perspective also, as mentioned. Many of the classes you decide to count up there are in terrible states for spvp and wvw now (some from before the patch like Druid). You can sugar coat is as much as you want, if this was a part of a balance patch, it might have been better to wait for the full changes to not run into the same issue as with the Rune/Sigil changes 4 weeks ago. People being disappointed or unhappy is justified at the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless. > > > > > > It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch. > > > > > > Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed. > > > > > > For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead? > > > > Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst. > > > > There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3. > > > > Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes. > > > > > > Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have > > Renegade > Holosmith > Druid > Mirage > Warrior (all three variants) > Thief both deadeye and daredevil > > Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess. > > Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.  Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only. Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types. So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also? > > Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough). > > I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed. > > The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change. > > For what? A not done patch and balance change. > > That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further. Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly. Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also? > > > > Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough). > > > > I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed. > > > > The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change. > > > > For what? A not done patch and balance change. > > > > That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further. > > Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly. > > Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen? > > Â I never said balance changes should not happen, this is what I said:Â It's okay for people to be unhappy if the balance changes implemented are not complete and leave the game in a state where it is less fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also? > > > > Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough). > > > > I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed. > > > > The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change. > > > > For what? A not done patch and balance change. > > > > That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further. > > Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly. > > Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen? > >  So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch. Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 What some one needs to do is make a flow chart of the buffs and nerfs of a given class just to show the craziness of where these changes have done to the classes and how often they go back on them self over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > > > Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also? > > > > > > Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough). > > > > > > I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed. > > > > > > The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change. > > > > > > For what? A not done patch and balance change. > > > > > > That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further. > > > > Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly. > > > > Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen? > > > > > > So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch. > > Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch. If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless. > > > > > > > > It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch. > > > > > > > > Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed. > > > > > > > > For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead? > > > > > > Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst. > > > > > > There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3. > > > > > > Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes. > > > > > > > > > > Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have > > > > Renegade > > Holosmith > > Druid > > Mirage > > Warrior (all three variants) > > Thief both deadeye and daredevil > > > > Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess. > > > > Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those > > I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf. > > Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only. > > Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types. > > So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this. I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.  And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the game now is balanced? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it. > > > > > > > > > > and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism. > > > > > > > > > > If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair. > > > > > > > > That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc. > > > > > > > > When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead. > > > > > > > > Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous. > > > > > > > > Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also? > > > > > > Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough). > > > > > > I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed. > > > > > > The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change. > > > > > > For what? A not done patch and balance change. > > > > > > That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further. > > > > Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly. > > > > Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen? > > > > > > I never said balance changes should not happen, this is what I said: > > It's okay for people to be unhappy if the balance changes implemented are not complete and leave the game in a state where it is less fun. Yes but no balance patch will be full as it's always a work in progress. Who determines how fun something is, do we look at a player or the general feeling of a group?  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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