apharma.3741 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > > > > Fb and rev is better now than chrono > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. The Patch was really good. Good groups can basically run 0 Boon Duration and keep up boons. Once you have them you are never going to lose them. bad groups can go with boon duration and probably get away 2 TW. > > > > > > On CC heavy fights you might take domination for a little bit of extra cc. > > > > > > > > > > > > A really good patch to be stuck in Chrono Jail. > > > > > > > > > > If we revert to a more support restricted meta (as in more than 4 slots go to supports), this might happen. > > > > > > > > > > The SoI change was for lack of a better word kitten. Sure, it doesn't benefit from boon duration now, but at the same time: it does not NEED bood duration now. > > > > > > > > > > If any additional raid slots go to more support roles which provide boons, chrono can now keep those boons up without sacrificing gear and just bringing SoI. > > > > > > > > > > Overall though we might see a more restricted meta develop where as in the past, more slots go to designated support builds leaving less room for dps and putting pressure on which dps get taken along since dps performance becomes more important again. > > > > > > > > As all other classes can't fart out different boons with releveant uptime as chrono could before the patch, People will just get used to less boons and nothing really changes. > > > > The only really relevant boons are might, fury, quickness, alacrity, to a lesser extent protection, those are still easy to come by. The rest was mainly a bonus for classes with increased damage with boons, except retaliation for guardians. > > > > > > Oh absolutely, but chronos quickness and alacrity up-time was hit too. It's likely back to double wells (which is inherently harder to share with in say PUG groups), no mimic and a very un-intuitive SoI (which does not scale with bd). The fact that you have no overview of which boons you extend on a raid group is just simply bad design from an information and overview standpoint. The lacking boon overview (because tracking 8-10 boons is fun when they are all small tiny icons on your bar) basically taken to the next level. Should have removed the signet or reworked it as a whole. > > > > > > My main gripe is mostly with the incoherent changes: > > > - SoI not affected by boon duration (I'm not a fan of exclusions of mechanics, in this case a stat not affecting a skill) > > > - SoI affecting boons on other players, which you have no real overview for in a raid scenario > > > - Mimic not affected by CS > > > > > > Those 3 alone just scream: > > > We had to come up with something, can't really manage to balance our game so we are going to start uniquely excluding effects on skills. A rework of those skills would have been better than this imo. > > > > Mimic works really good. Got to 40 seconds of quickness with 1 well and double chrono. Both running mimic. That was 50% BD so it will be slightly lower now. Basically one you get the boons, you will never lose them. > > Wells still only affect 5 players, as such double chrono unless running SoI makes not a big difference. > > Single chrono: > 0s - CS+WoA+Mimic + WoA+ Mimiced WoA = 10 +10 +10 = 30s of quickness (at 100 bd) > 20s - WoA rdy = +10s quick > 40s - Woa rdy = +10s quick > 50s - quickness runs out > 52s - Mimic ready > 60s - WoA ready > > That is without SoI (which you can't slot if you are running WoA+WoR+Mimic). Double chrono is only interesting for SoI and ToT since wells are still 5 player only. At 100% alacrity on chrono. **Also this requires all people to get your wells every single time, which is a huge mobility issue.** > > Good enough for fractals still, raids it will work but be a lot more annoying without boons from outside. This is the aspect I don't think people are properly considering. With FB+Ren you're getting constant frequent applications of quickness and alacrity as well as other boons while with double chrono it's going to be an initial dump of quickness and alacrity, extending anything else provided by druid and then you have to hop in the wells and tides when they're off cool down or you miss out. Just don't be bad 4Head. Except there's lots of fights where you have to move away from the group to do a mechanic for a few seconds then back in. FB+Ren you will get your boons back much quicker if you end up missing out on the stacking for whatever reason. The only issue is that it doesn't split as nicely as double chrono used to for something like largos but that's not a major issue in itself. I'm surprised people aren't seriously discussing dropping alacrity entirely and only running 2 quickness FB. Yes I know alacrity affects support and offence cool downs before another person brings it up but no-one seems to be taking a real look into the raiding experience without alacrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > One class able to basically outperform every other at the same time in boons is just ridiculously overpowered. You are comparing a specialized support build to dps/heal builds with incidental support. Of course the specialized one will be better. It will also have kitten dps. Because it is, as i said, a specialized _support_ build. The only problem was it was the _only_ class with such a build. > > I like Anet's idea of each class being more specialized in a specific kind of boon although I expect it will take a fair few patches before it's fine tuned enough that people stop complaining about it. If it ever gets to that point, only then people will really start to complain (for reasons Cyninja already mentioned - it would result in an extremely restricted meta with no place for class/build variations). > Though I am curious about how it will hurt the Necro since they don't have much in the way of boon sharing.. corrupting boons into conditions and vice versa isn't going to stand up to lacking a specialized boon. heal support scourge will likely remain unaffected (unless otherwise nerfed), but the more restricted the meta will get, any other necro build will go the way of the dodo. You will be able to forget running dps necro builds, because not only you will want dps with specific boons in those slots, but you will also want dps with higher damage values. Notice also, that this change is going to massively impact any potential new groups (in a very negative way). Yes, top tier raiders will adapt, but the lower tier, and raid newcomers will have to spend much more effort now to achieve the same results. I will be surprised if it won't negatively influence raider population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > > Fb and rev is better now than chrono > > > > > > > > Its not. The Patch was really good. Good groups can basically run 0 Boon Duration and keep up boons. Once you have them you are never going to lose them. bad groups can go with boon duration and probably get away 2 TW. > > > > On CC heavy fights you might take domination for a little bit of extra cc. > > > > > > > > A really good patch to be stuck in Chrono Jail. > > > > > > If we revert to a more support restricted meta (as in more than 4 slots go to supports), this might happen. > > > > > > The SoI change was for lack of a better word kitten. Sure, it doesn't benefit from boon duration now, but at the same time: it does not NEED bood duration now. > > > > > > If any additional raid slots go to more support roles which provide boons, chrono can now keep those boons up without sacrificing gear and just bringing SoI. > > > > > > Overall though we might see a more restricted meta develop where as in the past, more slots go to designated support builds leaving less room for dps and putting pressure on which dps get taken along since dps performance becomes more important again. > > > > As all other classes can't fart out different boons with releveant uptime as chrono could before the patch, People will just get used to less boons and nothing really changes. > > The only really relevant boons are might, fury, quickness, alacrity, to a lesser extent protection, those are still easy to come by. The rest was mainly a bonus for classes with increased damage with boons, except retaliation for guardians. > > Oh absolutely, but chronos quickness and alacrity up-time was hit too. It's likely back to double wells (which is inherently harder to share with in say PUG groups), no mimic and a very un-intuitive SoI (which does not scale with bd). The fact that you have no overview of which boons you extend on a raid group is just simply bad design from an information and overview standpoint. The lacking boon overview (because tracking 8-10 boons is fun when they are all small tiny icons on your bar) basically taken to the next level. Should have removed the signet or reworked it as a whole. > > My main gripe is mostly with the incoherent changes: > - SoI not affected by boon duration (I'm not a fan of exclusions of mechanics, in this case a stat not affecting a skill) > - SoI affecting boons on other players, which you have no real overview for in a raid scenario > - Mimic not affected by CS > > Those 3 alone just scream: > We had to come up with something, can't really manage to balance our game so we are going to start uniquely excluding effects on skills. A rework of those skills would have been better than this imo. How is SoI unintuitive? It extends boons, it doesn't apply them. Boon duration is exclusive for the duration of boons you apply. Scaling it with boon duration would be unintuitive. The boon extension mechanic exists since HoT. Why should they change it now and scale it with boon duration? Boon extension exists since HoT. Sand Squall, new Facet of Nature do the exact same thing. Sounds more like someone who doesn't trust his team and needs to control everything. Thank god this period ended and people need to take more responsibility instead of getting carried by chronos. Mimic in CS just limits skill design and impact. 4 times a skill in quick succession. Either balance mimic with CS in mind so it gets useless without CS, balance every skill around being potential used 4 times in a row, making ALL skills really weak in itself or just exclude it. Yes Continuum Split was a huge mistake and limits design of core mesmer and chronomancer if you don't exclude skills from it. Chronomancer would have been never that problematic without a skill reset mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > > > Fb and rev is better now than chrono > > > > > > > > > > Its not. The Patch was really good. Good groups can basically run 0 Boon Duration and keep up boons. Once you have them you are never going to lose them. bad groups can go with boon duration and probably get away 2 TW. > > > > > On CC heavy fights you might take domination for a little bit of extra cc. > > > > > > > > > > A really good patch to be stuck in Chrono Jail. > > > > > > > > If we revert to a more support restricted meta (as in more than 4 slots go to supports), this might happen. > > > > > > > > The SoI change was for lack of a better word kitten. Sure, it doesn't benefit from boon duration now, but at the same time: it does not NEED bood duration now. > > > > > > > > If any additional raid slots go to more support roles which provide boons, chrono can now keep those boons up without sacrificing gear and just bringing SoI. > > > > > > > > Overall though we might see a more restricted meta develop where as in the past, more slots go to designated support builds leaving less room for dps and putting pressure on which dps get taken along since dps performance becomes more important again. > > > > > > As all other classes can't fart out different boons with releveant uptime as chrono could before the patch, People will just get used to less boons and nothing really changes. > > > The only really relevant boons are might, fury, quickness, alacrity, to a lesser extent protection, those are still easy to come by. The rest was mainly a bonus for classes with increased damage with boons, except retaliation for guardians. > > > > Oh absolutely, but chronos quickness and alacrity up-time was hit too. It's likely back to double wells (which is inherently harder to share with in say PUG groups), no mimic and a very un-intuitive SoI (which does not scale with bd). The fact that you have no overview of which boons you extend on a raid group is just simply bad design from an information and overview standpoint. The lacking boon overview (because tracking 8-10 boons is fun when they are all small tiny icons on your bar) basically taken to the next level. Should have removed the signet or reworked it as a whole. > > > > My main gripe is mostly with the incoherent changes: > > - SoI not affected by boon duration (I'm not a fan of exclusions of mechanics, in this case a stat not affecting a skill) > > - SoI affecting boons on other players, which you have no real overview for in a raid scenario > > - Mimic not affected by CS > > > > Those 3 alone just scream: > > We had to come up with something, can't really manage to balance our game so we are going to start uniquely excluding effects on skills. A rework of those skills would have been better than this imo. > > How is SoI unintuitive? It extends boons, it doesn't apply them. Boon duration is exclusive for the duration of boons you apply. Scaling it with boon duration would be unintuitive. The boon extension mechanic exists since HoT. Why should they change it now and scale it with boon duration? Simple: you can't see raid boons in a regular raid ui (unless you make it huge). That's un-intuitive and just bad design. Even when copying your own boons it was already borderline bad design with the way boons are currently displayed in game, at least then you had an overview of WHAT YOU ARE EXTENDING. You are also incorrect about SoI, it provides boons, always has. The extension effect was changed way back to adapt the signet to the meta and games overall development. The simple fact that SoIs passive effect provides boons is a dead give away. A complete rework would be better and make more sense than this solution, which causes very own problems of both not working with boon duration and not NEEDING boon duration. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Boon extension exists since HoT. Sand Squall, new Facet of Nature do the exact same thing. Sounds more like someone who doesn't trust his team and needs to control everything. Thank god this period ended and people need to take more responsibility instead of getting carried by chronos. Has nothing to do with trust, I would like to have visual information on what my skills do. It's bad design. Period. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Mimic in CS just limits skill design and impact. 4 times a skill in quick succession. Either balance mimic with CS in mind so it gets useless without CS, balance every skill around being potential used 4 times in a row, making ALL skills really weak in itself or just exclude it. Yes, balance it with CS in mind, rework it if need be. It has been done multiple times before, especially on this skill. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Yes Continuum Split was a huge mistake and limits design of core mesmer and chronomancer if you don't exclude skills from it. Chronomancer would have been never that problematic with a skill reset mechanic. Sure, we can argue about what should and should not have been done. That is the job of the balance team. I like that they are pushing more of the chronos support onto chrono skills (making wells more important). The rest is what I am displeased about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > I've no idea how it will effect raids and fractals but I'm glad the change was made based on how I understand it.. > > > > One class able to basically outperform every other at the same time in boons is just ridiculously overpowered. > > > > I like Anet's idea of each class being more specialized in a specific kind of boon although I expect it will take a fair few patches before it's fine tuned enough that people stop complaining about it. > > Not sure what you are talking about. > > All steps taken so far in almost any patch was to open up all boons to more classes, not the other way around. > > The basic idea of specialized boons is kitten. Imagine if you had to bring a specific class for a specific boon. That would be the most restrictive meta ever. Now add to that that certain boons are less required/essential compared to others and you are basically forcing specific classes out of a meta setup due to boon discrimination. As I said.. from how I understand it. I could be mistaken or getting the wrong idea from what was said that's why I clarified it by saying "from how I understand it" Anet said this "Our goal here is to give value to different professions and specializations by making them all adept at applying specific boons to their allies so that multiple professions are needed in order to cover all boons." From that I don't see where you're getting opening up all boons to more classes.. they specifically said making classes and elite specs more adept at applying specific boons. To me that says each class and elite spec will be more specialized towards certain boons thus increasing the need for profession diversity among raid teams to agains as they said "cover all boons" > The easiest and best way would be to make boons as much of a non-issue as possible so that as many raid and fractal slots are available based on pure damage, something which is easiest to balance around. > It's not so easy though.. there's always going to be discrimination against classes on the lower end of the DPS chart if the only thing people give a crap about is pure damage. And there is always going to be hordes of angry players every single time a balance patch rolls out and their favorite class gets knocked off the top slot and replaced by one that was previously on the lower end.. Then it's just constant complaining on the forums about nerfing this nerfing that and people are never going to be happy until their favorite class is back on that top spot. There's more to this game than just pure damage and each class should be able to offer more than that. > The issue with chrono was that it was providing ALL the boons and people were up-set that they could not bring their support character of choice. Meanwhile the last 6 months were the least restricted raid meta ever with 6-7 dps slots open for damage dealers. > Yeah.. so 6-7 people per group were being restricted to playing dps meanwhile every other support build was being made completely irrelevant by the Chrono.. I can't see that being a good thing. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > Though I am curious about how it will hurt the Necro since they don't have much in the way of boon sharing.. corrupting boons into conditions and vice versa isn't going to stand up to lacking a specialized boon. > > Simple, if you thought getting into a raid as a sub tier dps was hard now, wait until the amount of dps slots decreases to see what real discrimination looks like. > > Necro excells as support scrouge though, unless the recent patch destroyed that build, I haven't checked. I dunno I don't like Scourge personally. That was the point though.. Necro doesn't have much in the way of boon sharing which is why i'm curious as to how Anet is going to make them viable in a market where each class and spec is more focused towards certain boons and sharing them. Necro's are already widely regarded as selfish when it comes to boons so I dunno.. if they're the only class unable to offer shared boons they will be discriminated against even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > I've no idea how it will effect raids and fractals but I'm glad the change was made based on how I understand it.. > > > > > > One class able to basically outperform every other at the same time in boons is just ridiculously overpowered. > > > > > > I like Anet's idea of each class being more specialized in a specific kind of boon although I expect it will take a fair few patches before it's fine tuned enough that people stop complaining about it. > > > > Not sure what you are talking about. > > > > All steps taken so far in almost any patch was to open up all boons to more classes, not the other way around. > > > > The basic idea of specialized boons is kitten. Imagine if you had to bring a specific class for a specific boon. That would be the most restrictive meta ever. Now add to that that certain boons are less required/essential compared to others and you are basically forcing specific classes out of a meta setup due to boon discrimination. > > As I said.. from how I understand it. > I could be mistaken or getting the wrong idea from what was said that's why I clarified it by saying "from how I understand it" > > Anet said this > "Our goal here is to give value to different professions and specializations by making them all adept at applying specific boons to their allies so that multiple professions are needed in order to cover all boons." > > From that I don't see where you're getting opening up all boons to more classes.. they specifically said making classes and elite specs more adept at applying specific boons. > To me that says each class and elite spec will be more specialized towards certain boons thus increasing the need for profession diversity among raid teams to agains as they said "cover all boons" > Yes, reading what the sugar coated intent was is a lot more reasonable than what the patch actually does. Here's a hint: they are not going to come out and tell you to your face that they want a certain build to be way less powerful. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > The easiest and best way would be to make boons as much of a non-issue as possible so that as many raid and fractal slots are available based on pure damage, something which is easiest to balance around. > > > It's not so easy though.. there's always going to be discrimination against classes on the lower end of the DPS chart if the only thing people give a kitten about is pure damage. > And there is always going to be hordes of angry players every single time a balance patch rolls out and their favorite class gets knocked off the top slot and replaced by one that was previously on the lower end.. > Then it's just constant complaining on the forums about nerfing this nerfing that and people are never going to be happy until their favorite class is back on that top spot. > There's more to this game than just pure damage and each class should be able to offer more than that. > > > The issue with chrono was that it was providing ALL the boons and people were up-set that they could not bring their support character of choice. Meanwhile the last 6 months were the least restricted raid meta ever with 6-7 dps slots open for damage dealers. I never said it was easy. I said it is the **easiest way**. Balancing multiple classes on boons, damage, utility and everything is a ton harder than balancing only around damage. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Yeah.. so 6-7 people per group were being restricted to playing dps meanwhile every other support build was being made completely irrelevant by the Chrono.. > I can't see that being a good thing. > Have you ever raided? Which classes are most demanded and required? Is it support classes or damage dealers? Draw your own conclusions. Also sorry but calling playing a damage dealer restricting? That is hilarious. You make it sound as though people are anxious to play supports. If only it were so. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > Though I am curious about how it will hurt the Necro since they don't have much in the way of boon sharing.. corrupting boons into conditions and vice versa isn't going to stand up to lacking a specialized boon. > > > > Simple, if you thought getting into a raid as a sub tier dps was hard now, wait until the amount of dps slots decreases to see what real discrimination looks like. > > > > Necro excells as support scrouge though, unless the recent patch destroyed that build, I haven't checked. > > I dunno I don't like Scourge personally. > That was the point though.. Necro doesn't have much in the way of boon sharing which is why i'm curious as to how Anet is going to make them viable in a market where each class and spec is more focused towards certain boons and sharing them. > Necro's are already widely regarded as selfish when it comes to boons so I dunno.. if they're the only class unable to offer shared boons they will be discriminated against even more so. Well sure, enjoy waiting until maybe the next elite specialization and hope necro gets a unique boon to share. Meanwhile the rest of us will hope for a less restrictive meta. EDIT: Just to be clear, since I might be coming off as a bit frustrated, which I am but due to something way different, not the patch changes (but what this will again lead to). I am not deliberately ripping on you Teratus. It's your approach I dislike and the approach many people bring to balance. People complain about 1 class being desired while their class is not getting taken along but fail to look at the bigger picture. Then a change kicks in, everyone is happy "oh look at class xyz, they finally got what they deserve" without taking into account how this will affect their class of choice. Then 2 weeks in, when the dust has settled, the same people come here complaining about toxicity and exclusivity while having applauded just that change not to far back. That is the frustrating part. As a raider I could care less since I always adapt my characters and the characters I play to what is needed. As part of a community it gets old though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > From that I don't see where you're getting opening up all boons to more classes.. they specifically said making classes and elite specs more adept at applying specific boons. > To me that says each class and elite spec will be more specialized towards certain boons thus increasing the need for profession diversity among raid teams to agains as they said "cover all boons" It would be, as you said, a "profession diversity" - not a voluntary one though, but something forced. What it would not be would be a group composition diversity. In fact, it would kill any composition diversity making it far more strict and restricted. You would not be able to bring one of many classes for a role. You'd have to bring that one specific class and build the comp needs in this slot. I'm pretty sure that's not a good thing > > > The easiest and best way would be to make boons as much of a non-issue as possible so that as many raid and fractal slots are available based on pure damage, something which is easiest to balance around. > > > It's not so easy though.. there's always going to be discrimination against classes on the lower end of the DPS chart if the only thing people give a kitten about is pure damage. That discrimination is going to be much higher the less dps slots will be used. Lower dps values for one player are less important if you have 6 others to cover for him, but if he's one of the only 3 dps roles present, then that kick option starts to be far more appealing. > And there is always going to be hordes of angry players every single time a balance patch rolls out and their favorite class gets knocked off the top slot and replaced by one that was previously on the lower end.. It didn't happen here. Pretty much everything got nerfed. Even the things that supposedly were buffed. Chrono's still on top. It's just that this top is now quite a lot lower. Alongside with everything else. > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Yeah.. so 6-7 people per group were being restricted to playing dps meanwhile every other support build was being made completely irrelevant by the Chrono.. > I can't see that being a good thing. You can't make irrelevant something that doesn't exist. There weren't _any_ other specialized support builds that chrono made irrelevant. All the builds you think of were hybrids that offered some boons in addition to a different primary function. Besides, most players didn't want to run support builds anyway. There was always a lack of chronos, and overrepresentation of dps. Now all those dps players will be restricted to playing support builds they don't like if they want to get themselves a place in the raid squad. Or compete against other dps-es for those limited dps slots. I can't see _that_ being a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Yes, reading what the sugar coated intent was is a lot more reasonable than what the patch actually does. Here's a hint: they are not going to come out and tell you to your face that they want a certain build to be way less powerful. But they said exactly that. That support chronomancer in raids is too powerful. "In this update, we've made changes to Signet of Inspiration and Mimic—two core skills in the current skill rotation for chronomancers in raids. These are fairly significant changes with slightly different purposes, although both have been made to address the issue of stacking power multipliers." "Neither of these changes are intended to alter the chronomancer's identity as a build focused around quickness and alacrity. However, the power these two skills allowed chronomancers made them a one-stop shop for every boon in the game, which was crowding out other potential roles in raid compositions. In order to reinforce this direction, we've also added quickness and alacrity enhancements to wells." > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Simple: you can't see raid boons in a regular raid ui (unless you make it huge). That's un-intuitive and just bad design. Even when copying your own boons it was already borderline bad design with the way boons are currently displayed in game, at least then you had an overview of WHAT YOU ARE EXTENDING. > > You are also incorrect about SoI, it provides boons, always has. The extension effect was changed way back to adapt the signet to the meta and games overall development. The simple fact that SoIs passive effect provides boons is a dead give away. A complete rework would be better and make more sense than this solution, which causes very own problems of both not working with boon duration and not NEEDING boon duration. > I was talking about the active effect. Yes they said in the patchnotes they changed it because of the raid meta. The passive effect was always just a small bonus and still fits the theme. > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Mimic in CS just limits skill design and impact. 4 times a skill in quick succession. Either balance mimic with CS in mind so it gets useless without CS, balance every skill around being potential used 4 times in a row, making ALL skills really weak in itself or just exclude it. > > Yes, balance it with CS in mind, rework it if need be. It has been done multiple times before, especially on this skill. Yes it was already massively limiting design in it's first iteration. The second was just useless and now we have one that doesn't potential break the game anymore and is fun to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > I've no idea how it will effect raids and fractals but I'm glad the change was made based on how I understand it.. > > > > > > > > One class able to basically outperform every other at the same time in boons is just ridiculously overpowered. > > > > > > > > I like Anet's idea of each class being more specialized in a specific kind of boon although I expect it will take a fair few patches before it's fine tuned enough that people stop complaining about it. > > > > > > Not sure what you are talking about. > > > > > > All steps taken so far in almost any patch was to open up all boons to more classes, not the other way around. > > > > > > The basic idea of specialized boons is kitten. Imagine if you had to bring a specific class for a specific boon. That would be the most restrictive meta ever. Now add to that that certain boons are less required/essential compared to others and you are basically forcing specific classes out of a meta setup due to boon discrimination. > > > > As I said.. from how I understand it. > > I could be mistaken or getting the wrong idea from what was said that's why I clarified it by saying "from how I understand it" > > > > Anet said this > > "Our goal here is to give value to different professions and specializations by making them all adept at applying specific boons to their allies so that multiple professions are needed in order to cover all boons." > > > > From that I don't see where you're getting opening up all boons to more classes.. they specifically said making classes and elite specs more adept at applying specific boons. > > To me that says each class and elite spec will be more specialized towards certain boons thus increasing the need for profession diversity among raid teams to agains as they said "cover all boons" > > > > Yes, reading what the sugar coated intent was is a lot more reasonable than what the patch actually does. Here's a hint: they are not going to come out and tell you to your face that they want a certain build to be way less powerful. > Well again like I said " I expect it will take a fair few patches before it's fine tuned enough" Also they did pretty much just come out and say Chrono was a problem. "In addition, we'll be reducing which boons mesmers and their specializations can apply since chronomancer is currently stifling other options due to its ability to easily apply all boons with Signet of Inspiration." It's right there in the patch notes.. literally named the class/elite spec and the specific problem skill/build lol I'm more than happy to agree with you that the skill/trait changes are probably bad in parts and do not reflect the so called sugar coated intent you specificed but that's exactly why I said I expect it will take multiple patches to fine tune them to the so called goal Anet is trying to achieve. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > The easiest and best way would be to make boons as much of a non-issue as possible so that as many raid and fractal slots are available based on pure damage, something which is easiest to balance around. > > > > > It's not so easy though.. there's always going to be discrimination against classes on the lower end of the DPS chart if the only thing people give a kitten about is pure damage. > > And there is always going to be hordes of angry players every single time a balance patch rolls out and their favorite class gets knocked off the top slot and replaced by one that was previously on the lower end.. > > Then it's just constant complaining on the forums about nerfing this nerfing that and people are never going to be happy until their favorite class is back on that top spot. > > There's more to this game than just pure damage and each class should be able to offer more than that. > > > > > The issue with chrono was that it was providing ALL the boons and people were up-set that they could not bring their support character of choice. Meanwhile the last 6 months were the least restricted raid meta ever with 6-7 dps slots open for damage dealers. > > I never said it was easy. I said it is the **easiest way**. Balancing multiple classes on boons, damage, utility and everything is a ton harder than balancing only around damage. > It probably is but it's probably more beneficial too if they have multiple different ways to make each class and spec viable rather than constantly focusing on pure damage. At least they don't have to worry about screwing over countless people when they put their favorite class on the bottom of the DPS chart.. At least if the class on the bottom has other build options to be useful they can utalize them rather than just getting told to go play something else. Do you not realize how many people alone get turned off raids because of that kind of thing? It's one of the main reasons your community is so small. > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > Yeah.. so 6-7 people per group were being restricted to playing dps meanwhile every other support build was being made completely irrelevant by the Chrono.. > > I can't see that being a good thing. > > > > Have you ever raided? Which classes are most demanded and required? Is it support classes or damage dealers? Draw your own conclusions. > > Yes but I only raid with a small group of friends for good reason, we don't tolerate elitism or discrimination which is why we don't play with the general raiding community nor tolerate such behavior in our dungeon and fractal groups either. > Also sorry but calling playing a damage dealer restricting? That is hilarious. You make it sound as though people are anxious to play supports. If only it were so. > Well not everyone enjoys playing DPS.. I certainly don't care for min/maxing my damage. Depending on the build I do prefer playing more support roles over damage.. and I know plenty of others who feel the same. They just don't raid with the general community because they hate playing by other peoples demands which I can completely relate with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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